Comparing trajectories and spins of 3 patterns in the (same frame)

Discussion in 'Racquets' started by TennisManiac, Nov 5, 2017.

?

Which would you chose?

  1. 18x16

    2 vote(s)
    4.3%
  2. 16x18

    15 vote(s)
    31.9%
  3. 18x20

    30 vote(s)
    63.8%
  1. TennisManiac

    TennisManiac Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    977
    In regards to the Wilson Six One 95. There are 3 patterns to choose from. The dense 18x20. The more open 16x18. And the spin effect 18x16. There's no arguing the fact that control goes to the denser patterns. But is everyone in agreement that the trajectory and spin is going to be greater with the more open patterns?

    In other words. Do we all agree that with the same string and tension, the trajectory and spin from highest to lowest will be?

    18x16
    16x18
    18x20

    Also, which one would you choose or have you chosen and why?
     
    #1
  2. Tennisguy777

    Tennisguy777 Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2007
    Messages:
    956
    Location:
    Somewhere In the jungles of Africa
    I'd go with the 18x20 for the control. I've never enjoyed a 16 mains raquet.
     
    #2
  3. CopolyX

    CopolyX Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2014
    Messages:
    3,682
    Location:
    Pelham NH
    #3
  4. KaiserW

    KaiserW Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,439
    Depends what you are looking for. If you want spin the 18x16 does the job. The downside it does not have the plow thru of the 16x18. I tried leading up mine and still feel not enough plow thru compared to the 16x18.

    Never tried the 18x20 but I would think if you value control the most this would be the pick. If power and good spin the 16x18.

    Don't think you could go wrong with any of them. Just a fantastic line.
     
    #4
  5. CosmosMpower

    CosmosMpower Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2014
    Messages:
    971
    Control pattern in a control oriented players stick all day
     
    #5
  6. SpinToWin

    SpinToWin Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2014
    Messages:
    21,200
    Location:
    Germany
    The 95S is a different stick... The lower weight translates to less plow and a more hollow feel imo. Plus the string pattern is very lively and jumpy, making the frame more reminiscent of an APD in terms of ball action off the stringbed. Nice for players who have more more loopy shots, the normal Six.Ones are for more serious players that drive a heavy ball through the court.

    Not sure which of the two I’d pick now, been a while since I last hit the frames.
     
    Shroud likes this.
    #6
  7. 4-string

    4-string Professional

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Messages:
    871
    Location:
    Norway
    Personally, I always found both 16x18 and 16x19 to be more spin friendly than 18x16, but YMMV.
     
    #7
  8. 4-string

    4-string Professional

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2014
    Messages:
    871
    Location:
    Norway
    double post
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
    #7
  9. Traffic

    Traffic Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    Messages:
    2,030
    Hitting against my 14y/o son, I would have to agree. He gets more spin on his ground strokes and 2nd serves from a 16x19 patterned racquet than his 18x16 PS97LS

    But racquet head size and shape may also play a factor in the string spacings.
     
    #8
  10. esgee48

    esgee48 Legend

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,144
    Location:
    SF CA
    The 18x16 pattern is suppose to be able to spin the ball more than its 18x20 counterpart. Whether the 18x16 pattern spins more than the 16x18 is not relevant since Wilson says the comparisons are between the 18 main frames. We can agree that a 16x15 will spin more than a 16x18 pattern. 3 cents.
     
    #9
  11. TennisManiac

    TennisManiac Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    977
    I just ordered an 18x20 reissue and a 16x18 (new old stock). I'll play with both for a while and decide which one I prefer before ordering a second. I have no interest in the spin effect frame (18x16). I find it interesting that most people prefer the 18x20. I'll see what all the hype is about soon. Can't wait to hit with these things.
     
    #10
  12. AMGF

    AMGF Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    Messages:
    1,047
    Location:
    Canada
    After watching countless TW racquets review, I am now questionning wether denser string patterns actually create more spin. If they were, then play tester would get more spin (rpm) from 16x19 than from 18x20 right? Well actual data with playsight say otherwise. Many players got more spin with a 18x20 than with their 16x19. I believe in the old days (before poly) it was true, but now with snappy slick polys, you can get more spin from a 18x20.

    However, string pattern really affect launch angle. If you like to hit higher, loopier balls, the more open patterns will increase that. If you like to hit lower/flatter 18x20 is best, 16x19 being the in between option.
     
    stephenclown likes this.
    #11
  13. Matthew Lee

    Matthew Lee Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2015
    Messages:
    798
    The middle one. 18 x 16 was decent for me, but I've been so accustomed to 16 mains. Have never played as well as I can with an 18 main racket.
     
    #12
  14. stephenclown

    stephenclown Rookie

    Joined:
    May 26, 2015
    Messages:
    340
    I know anecdotal evidence is not evidence but my own play mirrors this. Also I think it has a bit to do with string selection, I can definitely see grippy and shaped polys like diadem strings or fire wire working marvelously in a 18x20 frame. Makes sense given that there is more friction with multiple strings touching the ball in a dense pattern.

    I think the benefit of a nice 16x19 pattern like those used by Federer, Nadal and *edited* is the added pace that can be obtained while flattening out the forehand and backhand. They are also using pretty tame patterns compared to the Pure aero lines or some crazy spin patterns available today, so spin is also pretty monstrous.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
    #13
  15. stephenclown

    stephenclown Rookie

    Joined:
    May 26, 2015
    Messages:
    340
    Duplicate
     
    #14
  16. 1990's Graphite

    1990's Graphite Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    Messages:
    666
    I thought Delpotro was using 18x20
     
    stephenclown likes this.
    #15
  17. AMGF

    AMGF Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    Messages:
    1,047
    Location:
    Canada
    I agree. Anecdotal experience and all, if 16x19 were significantly better, Thiem/Pouille wouldn't be right up there with the most rpm of pretty much any player on tour with their 18x20. At this level they all have great technique so any player with a 18x20 shouldn't be close in rpm.

    My theory: when strings didn't snap back, more space between strings allowed more ball to be squeezed in the space and added more grip on the ball giving more spin. With polys and gut/poly snapping back, even with a closed pattern, the strings are adding spin to the ball and having more space between strings is marginally helpful if at all. Maybe now, with those strings, added strings mean added force snapping on the ball. Evening any advantage between the different patterns.
     
    #16
  18. El_Yotamo

    El_Yotamo Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 21, 2014
    Messages:
    593
    Actually, it's been shown that string pattern make more of a difference in spin potential with poly than without. The greater spacing does make a big difference, but again, that's talking potential. Potential means firing balls at a racquet and seeing the RPM imparted. In the real world, big hitters find more control and feel with dense patterns, and find those favorable to patterns that increase their spin potential, but don't let them swing out as much or with as much confidence.


    Basically, poly has actually amplified the effect of open patterns, but advanced players who take full cuts at the ball prefer to do just that and get control and feel from their stick, instead of having to provide the control while the racquet/string provides the spin.
     
    maured01 likes this.
    #17
  19. TennisManiac

    TennisManiac Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    977


    Both contain good points.
     
    Moonarse likes this.
    #18
  20. TennisManiac

    TennisManiac Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    977
    duplicate post
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
    #18
  21. Moonarse

    Moonarse Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 3, 2016
    Messages:
    457
    I know You are trying to isolate other factors on this case scenario, but I think stiffness and weight are "unisolatable" in this matter.

    My PA amped the spin a lot when I wraped a leather grip in it (was playing 2 OG no cushion).
     
    #19
  22. stingstang

    stingstang Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    468
    ....
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
    #20
  23. stingstang

    stingstang Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    468
    With the 18x20 you can use super thin string without worrying about loss of control or breakage. What would a test between an 18x20 with 19g & 16x18 with 16g show? I think the difference in spin would be negligible.

    I played ages with K95 16x18's and now have newer 6.1 18x20's. I find string set-up is way more important. I string the 18x20 much lower with 18g>. Believe me, with something like 19g tour bite you aren't worrying about lack of spin.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
    #21
  24. AMGF

    AMGF Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    Messages:
    1,047
    Location:
    Canada
    Chris from TW has more rpm with the Dunlop Srixon than with his Ezone Dr98+. Mark has more rpm with the Blade 18x20 than with his Babolat Pure Aero tour and Andy has more rpm with the same blade vs his Dr98.

    When you think about this, it just shouldn't be. From what I understand, the TW playtest have the players test their racquets back to back with the playtest frame. Same day, same guy, same balls. If 16x19 was so much better at making spin, no way we would see the Dunlop and Blade make more rpms.
     
    TennisManiac likes this.
    #22
  25. WestboroChe

    WestboroChe Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2017
    Messages:
    196
    To answer the OP's question:

    I agree that a more open string pattern will generate spin easier than a more dense pattern. However having recently switched to an 18x20 string pattern, the additional control I get directionally has translated into better shot production, even at the expense of the mind numbing spin I could sometimes generate with my the more open string pattern. It has also helped me control my flatter shots which makes put aways easier.

    I don't want to tell you what to play with but if you've never tried the denser string pattern of your preferred racquet you should give it a go. The problem with all the lab tests is that humans aren't lab machines and we react to the equipment in unpredictable ways. Sometimes the result is counter-intuitive and sometimes the result is TE.

    BTW my old racquet was an nCode 6.1 (16x18) very similar to the one in the OP. Looking back on it, I feel that if I had used the 18x20 version of the frame I might have been able to control the power of that racquet better and played more consistently.
     
    TennisManiac and El_Yotamo like this.
    #23
  26. daniel2015

    daniel2015 Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2015
    Messages:
    872
    I would always choose 18x20 because the ball goes flat , but if it is a stiff (>70) racquet , I think twice
     
    #24
  27. El_Yotamo

    El_Yotamo Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 21, 2014
    Messages:
    593
    Again, I do not disagree. I also think string setup is more important, and I'm a user of an 18x20 who hits big spin. What I said is simply the fact that ceteris paribus, including one's swing, greater spin comes from more open patterns.

    About your comment with string setups, there is the exact same counterpoint as with string pattern. Quite simply, thinner gauges don't supply as much control or predictability response-wise as thicker ones. Thus, a player with a strong, developed game will not necessarily look to maximize their spin potential by using a spin-friendly setup, they will will for what gives them the best control and feel, allowing them to impart the spin as they like.
     
    #25
  28. El_Yotamo

    El_Yotamo Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 21, 2014
    Messages:
    593
    Not sure if it's all the done the same day alongside and everything, but even if it is, please see my post above and see what you think. It takes into account not only our scientific understanding of string patterns and spin, as well as the physics of trajectories and string patterns, but also how human psychology can have an effect as well from confidence and feel.
     
    #26
  29. TennisManiac

    TennisManiac Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    977
    I'm looking forward to more directional control and shot production. I've been searching for it for a while now. I can't wait to try the 18x20.

    And btw, I too used the nCode 6.1 95 16x18 about 12 years ago. I vaguely remember them.
     
    #27
  30. AMGF

    AMGF Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    Messages:
    1,047
    Location:
    Canada
    Oh sure, I totally agree. Something is not aligned with common wisdom. Just a few years ago, we had no mean to measure such things. With new technology we can now get info that seem contrary to what we always thought. Is it the equipment, or how the equipment makes us play?

    I think control 18x20 making more spin than great spin frames like the Pure Aero (or DR98/DR98+) deserves some more tests. What is going on? Is the spin coming from extra confidence because with more control and a lower launch angle you feel like you can really swing all out and get more rpm (think Thiem) or is there something related with how modern polys string behave?

    TWU does a good job with their lab tests. But shooting a ball at a stationnary board with strings is only answering so much. We need players, with modern polys and more classic strings, testing back to back frames and see what the numbers are. From the small sample of TW frame reviews, it seems 18x20 are not at any disadvantage in making spin and that is something totally out of the left field. In fact for the small sample we have, 3 TW reviewers had more spin than with their personnal frames.

    Even more suprising is either Thiem (top 10 atp) Andy (open player) Chris and Mark (club players) are getting similar results. You don't seem to even need Thiem's type of racquet head speed to generate good amount of spin out of a 18x20 frame.
     
    #28
  31. El_Yotamo

    El_Yotamo Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 21, 2014
    Messages:
    593
    Thing is that firing a ball at a stationary racquet gives us conclusive evidence, that with poly strings the gap in spin potential between open and dense patterns has only increased. This rules out the possibility of gear generating greater spin potential, rather allowing the player to hit with greater spin potential. Any player with good basic strokes can feel this because with more control (and often times less power) more brushing with the ball is necessary.

    Of course more data is necessary, especially playtests, but to suggest that dense patterns are not at a disadvantage in terms of creating spin is incorrect. Scientifically, it has been proven to be the exact opposite, and that with poly strings the gap has increased. Therefore, this phenomenon has nothing to do with the behavior of polys, and everything to do with players' adjustments to conditions. That is to say that the same exact swing will yield far more spin with an open pattern, however we know that we don't swing the same with different patterns. That is all, polys don't have anything to do with it.
     
    #29
  32. AMGF

    AMGF Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    Messages:
    1,047
    Location:
    Canada
    Do you have a link to the scientific tests that reach that conclusion? If it is the TWU test I read already read it.

    In the end, if a player gets more spin with a closed string pattern because such patterns give the player more confidence to swing harder then maybe a player is better off with a closed pattern if he wants more spin.

    More tests are needed I believe to sort out why a pattern, scientifically proven to give more spin, actually generate less spin when measured in the real world.
     
    #30
  33. TW Staff

    TW Staff Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    28,746
    Location:
    Tennis-Warehouse.com
    Just to confirm, the numbers you see in our Playsight data are from back to back hitting sessions off a fed ball. Maneuverability is a huge factor. The faster you swing, the faster you can get the ball to spin. Strings and string pattern help for sure, but swing speed is key.

    Cheers,
    Chris, TW
     
    El_Yotamo likes this.
    #31
  34. AMGF

    AMGF Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    Messages:
    1,047
    Location:
    Canada
    In your opinion, is that how you got more rpm from the Dunlop than your Dr98+? The Dunlop is very HL and has a low SW compared to the DR98+.
     
    #32
  35. El_Yotamo

    El_Yotamo Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 21, 2014
    Messages:
    593
    You pretty much said what I had stated. Again, I use a dense pattern for that reason. I was just commenting on your "theory" that polys' behavior affects this. Good to see that we fully agree, since you seem to have retracted that claim.
     
    KaiserW likes this.
    #33
  36. AMGF

    AMGF Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    Messages:
    1,047
    Location:
    Canada
    I am pretty much just trying to understand what is going on. I don’t advocate for a theory over the other. I think your theory makes sense. But I’d like to see real world data that would support it. I still believe polys play a role of sort in that because I doubt a 18x20 with syn gut would achieve more spin than a 16x19 with similar strings, but again maybe it would. Just trying to find the answer. I have a very open minded approach.

    If your theory is right, it would mean that Chris, Mark and Andy all went full swing with the 18x20 while refraining to swing as hard or fully with their personnal (and I assume tuned for their game) frame. Entirely possible, especially if the 18x20 they tested was below their favorite specs and could swing out with more speed. But maybe there is more to it. Or maybe I’m just overthinking it.

    Chris it seems, attributes the extra spin with his 18x20 to maneuverability. Which would mean that instead of going for 16x19 people in search of more spin should seek low weight, very HL and lowish SW. But then they would probably have less ball speed and hit very short.
     
    El_Yotamo likes this.
    #34
  37. WestboroChe

    WestboroChe Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2017
    Messages:
    196
    open string patterns simply make spin production easier. Not only does the lab data show this but if I'm just hitting a ball it is definitely easier to create spin with a more open patter. But spin is not the be all end all of control and power. Directional control and feedback from the strings to the hand are important factors as well and the denser string pattern definitely delivers on this.

    I don't think I could claim that my new Tour 100P with its 18x20 string bed makes spin like my old 16x18 Pro Staff. But it is capable of producing the spin I need and it also allows me to aim with more precision. Everything is a trade off. Spin is helpful, but it's not everything. The same is true if I use poly. Yes I get easier access to spin, but I lose feel, power on the flat ball, etc.
     
    #35
  38. SpinToWin

    SpinToWin Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2014
    Messages:
    21,200
    Location:
    Germany
    The player plays the spin and different frames accentuate different strokes in terms of spin production. For instance, you can have a very vertical and fast swing for hitting spin. Open string patterns will tend to be harder to control here (as well as powerful high swingweight frames), so one usually decelerates in order to gain control. Meanwhile, take a dense string pattern with a low launch angle, and the trajectory isn’t as high off the shot, so you can swing faster while keeping the ball in.

    Frame-stroke interaction plays a role. Fed probably plays spin the way he does more easily with an open string pattern. Thiem likely couldn’t keep the ball in the court (even worse than now lol) and probably would swing slower, thus producing less spin, if he had to use an open string pattern.

    Long story short.... Adjust to a frame and you can play heavy spin with almost any frame if you have the technique
     
    TennisManiac and El_Yotamo like this.
    #36
  39. KaiserW

    KaiserW Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,439
    Can't speak for the 18x20 but when I used the 18x16 spin effect model my ball had more spin than with the 16x18 model.

    Some people think the spin effect sticks are a gimmick but they are not if you want more spin with the same exact stroke.
     
    #37
  40. El_Yotamo

    El_Yotamo Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 21, 2014
    Messages:
    593
    To be fair, my "theory" includes specs and adjusts for lighter racquets, hence the phrase "ceteris paribus" (all else equal). Anyways, 18x20s aren't necessarily lighter/faster swinging, so I'm unsure how much ground that point holds. Anyways, I think this discussion has reached a dead end, so I'll just agree to disagree.
     
    #38
  41. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2010
    Messages:
    6,999
    I played 16x18 blx 6.1 years ago and liked it but had to use poly mains to tame the power. I would go with 18x20 now if I had to pick from the options in your poll but I actually prefer a 16x19 with 8 mains in the throat. 2nd preference would be 18x20 and maybe go with 17G strings for more power and spin.
     
    #39
  42. TennisManiac

    TennisManiac Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    977
    I just received my racquets today. They both look great. Love the cosmetics. Can't wait to get out to hit with them. Just wish it wasn't November here in Pennsylvania. I'll spend more time looking at them then I will playing with them till next season. :(
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
    #40
  43. TW Staff

    TW Staff Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    28,746
    Location:
    Tennis-Warehouse.com
    I think it was a combo of being able to swing the racquet very easily and having to swing it fast to make up for the lack of plow through compared to the DR98+. With the Yonex depth came easily. With the TFights, Ultra Tour and the Srixons we've tested recently, they've been head light, lowish RA, low swingweights and have required an aggressive swing to get depth. I had to work harder with them, but I was able to get a lot of spin since I was swinging fast. Even though I was getting more spin my shots often lacked depth. Having to excerpt more effort to get depth back into my hitting was the deal breaker for me and I'd add weight to all of them to get some easy depth back.

    I recently switched to a racquet I feel gives me the best of both worlds. With the TFlash 300 PS I get super easy depth, yet it is also very light and spin friendly.

    Cheers,
    Chris, TW
     
    El_Yotamo likes this.
    #41
  44. AMGF

    AMGF Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    Messages:
    1,047
    Location:
    Canada
    Thanks Chris! It's great to have your impressions on this.
     
    #42

Share This Page