Complete Kick Serve for Not Confuse

[beRafa]

I think we have 2 theory to make Kick Serve. They are not wrong, you can make Kick Serve with both of them.
The first is Kick Serve with supination for much pronation and the second is Kick Serve without supination or less pronation. I use term "much" and "less" for not confuse our point here. Because I and You believe that Kick Serve is with pronation.

The First
Many profesional use this theory. And maximum pronation used by Pete Sampras. This is some videos from youtube who use first theory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DpptgXq5j4

and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhRxnuV9BTY


The Second
I don't know profesional who use it. But many amatir or junior players use this second theory. This is the second theory on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j34COa_LFKg

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNvD7-KbcEA

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs-Zbi1n8VA&list=PLpsZ_4gf-vD1yqA2i5pkYPLjXIEhdMaOl

Hope this not confuse us anymore about pronation or not pronation on Kick Serve

 

[LeeD]

Let's see...
How many different ways to hit a forehand?
A backhand?
A 2hbh?
Stands to reason, there are different ways to hit kick serves, either topspin or twisted.

 

[GuyClinch]

Yeah..I am not sure there is any real difference between these two types..

I see pronation on all of them. Maybe you will have to explain the supination bit. I don't get it. You need a loose wrist to get a good racquet drop. Is that what you mean?
Both Tomas and Jeff are using partial serves to teach you the arm action. If you look at them when they serve full out - its very similar to the pros.

 

[Topspin Shot]

The noticeable pronation you see from the top servers is a result of using a full throwing motion and tossing the ball very far out into the court, even on kick serves. Many rec players don't have proper serving mechanics, and they don't toss the ball out in front unless they're serving flat, so they don't get much if any pronation. Trying to pronate with rec level mechanics will prevent you from putting any spin on the ball, and your motion will look a lot like Sir Shankalot's (no offense--your serve was just the first one that popped into my head).

 

[LeeD]

But for sure, your twist toss is farther back than your flat serve toss, and also more over your head..
A top/slice toss is in between, in location.

 

[Topspin Shot]

But for sure, your twist toss is farther back than your flat serve toss, and also more over your head..
A top/slice toss is in between, in location.

Well sure, contact is farther back than on a flat serve, but it's still significantly inside the baseline. At 42 seconds, Federer hits this kick serve a good foot, maybe even a couple inches more, inside the baseline. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ic0NN_VJzw

 

[LeeD]

That's because his legs still drive him inside the court, like a youngster.
I"m 65, haven't run in over 6 years. There is NO leg drive in any of my serves, none, zip, nada.

 

[Topspin Shot]

That's because his legs still drive him inside the court, like a youngster.
I"m 65, haven't run in over 6 years. There is NO leg drive in any of my serves, none, zip, nada.

But do you pronate like Federer on your kick serves?

 

[LeeD]

I don't think any 65 year old lefty can do anything like Federer does.
Yes, there is some pronation, probably not as much as I use for flat first serves.
Hit correct, like in the past 2 weeks, it curves to the right thru the air, bounces and kicks hard left (from my point of view), around 5'10" at the baseline, so a returner get's to hit a head high ball to return that serve. Used mostly on duece court (I am lefty), I can get a returner to step beyond his doubles court just to hit the ball. The effect is less dramatic on ad court, where the court is shorter up the T, so the bounce effect is less.

 

[Topspin Shot]

I don't think any 65 year old lefty can do anything like Federer does.
Yes, there is some pronation, probably not as much as I use for flat first serves.
Hit correct, like in the past 2 weeks, it curves to the right thru the air, bounces and kicks hard left (from my point of view), around 5'10" at the baseline, so a returner get's to hit a head high ball to return that serve. Used mostly on duece court (I am lefty), I can get a returner to step beyond his doubles court just to hit the ball. The effect is less dramatic on ad court, where the court is shorter up the T, so the bounce effect is less.

Well, the topic of this thread is pronation, and I was saying that if you want to pronate like the pros, you have to use their mechanics and toss it where they toss it.

 

[LeeD]

At 42 seconds, while the bounce of that toss might be a foot inside the baseline, his contact point is closer to 6" inside the baseline.
I was thinking contact point not where the ball would land if I didn't swing at it. I have not caught my own toss OR not hit the serve after a toss in over 10 years.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Let me get a screenshot of the contact point.

 

[Topspin Shot]

I would say this contact is a foot inside the court.

 

[LeeD]

I see the problem here....
YOU are going by video, or what does Federer do.
I am going by my actual twist serve, done on a tennis court, recalled the best I can.
I think my impact zone on twist serves is somewhere around my baseline, but if allowed to land on the ground, probably a good 9" inside the baseline. I hit my serves off a low toss, barely higher than I can reach on flat serves, and maybe a bit lower for the twist serves, which have a LOWER contact point.

 

[Topspin Shot]

I see the problem here....
YOU are going by video, or what does Federer do.
I am going by my actual twist serve, done on a tennis court, recalled the best I can.
I think my impact zone on twist serves is somewhere around my baseline, but if allowed to land on the ground, probably a good 9" inside the baseline. I hit my serves off a low toss, barely higher than I can reach on flat serves, and maybe a bit lower for the twist serves, which have a LOWER contact point.

This is fine. But you're not going to pronate like the pros then. This is also fine. I'm only talking about the OP's topic of whether trying to pronate like the pros is desirable.

 

[LeeD]

Pronating on kick serves is desirable.
Pronating like the pros is not possible.

 

[Chas Tennis]

This frame shows what I believe is a Stosur kick serve. Details with the Vimeo video. The frame shown is just after impact and the ball has moved forward slightly.

The 4 frames around impact are posted in reply #30 below

https://vimeo.com/87038955

These high speed video frames at 240 fps are 4 milliseconds apart. If you examine the video stop action frame-by-frame you can clearly see that the racket is rising before and after impact - necessary for a kick serve. From this camera view the racket is angled considerably away from the camera, the racket length looks shorter. To get accurate positions for the racket head use features of the crowd as references. To do stop action single frame on Vimeo hold the SHIFT KEY and use the RIGHT or Left ARROW KEYS.

For this serve the part played by internal shoulder rotation shows up - the arm rotates the racket from roughly edge on to the ball to face on. Also notice that during the final acceleration up and around to the ball the hand is not rising much. The racket face is rising because the angle between the forearm and racket is getting larger very rapidly.

Stosur also ends her follow through with a characteristic of some kick serves, she finishes on the right side with the racket out to the right side.

FYI, I'm not sure what is going on with some of these head positions, they look extreme. Not sure of the type serve or whether a fault.

https://vimeo.com/87040636

SystemicAnamoly - we were discussing Stosur's head position in a recent thread. These struck me as unusual.

 

[Cheetah]

I don't get the association between amount of pronation and how far into the court you make contact. I think there is no link.
Could be wrong though. Somebody convince me.

 

[LeeD]

There is no direct correlation.
How far you toss into the court is your preference.
How much you pronate is also different with different players, for twist serves.
Our arms are not all the same, our wrists are different, and our shoulders are different also, besides grip, grip strength, wrist flexibility, and experience.

 

[Cheetah]

There is no direct correlation.
How far you toss into the court is your preference.
How much you pronate is also different with different players, for twist serves.
Our arms are not all the same, our wrists are different, and our shoulders are different also, besides grip, grip strength, wrist flexibility, and experience.

Agreed. no correlation. Going forward into the court is only for added pace from weight transfer because the rhs for kicks and twists go into producing spin.

 

[Topspin Shot]

I don't get the association between amount of pronation and how far into the court you make contact. I think there is no link.
Could be wrong though. Somebody convince me.

I say this because the arm naturally pronates (I'm being loose with the term; it's ISR too) as it extends. I guess it's possible to get a lot of pronation with a toss over the baseline, but it would require a lot of flexibility and maybe even straining to continue pronating a lot in the follow through. Am I making sense here?

 

[meltedsteam]

I am not not confuse. But that is a good video array, the second link being one that is to my liking. Without a consistent and high toss point, the second set of videos will be useful. The seem to demonstrate the same spin trajectory without the added pace of the first two videos.

 

[LeeD]

Not to me.
One main criteria for a kick serve to be effective, IT MUST BOUNCE HIGH. Secondary for me is speed, as a slower twist gives the ball more opposiing bounce, a higher bounce (due to higher net clearance), and it enables us crippled folke to approach near the service line before the ball comes whizzing back.

 

[Cheetah]

I say this because the arm naturally pronates (I'm being loose with the term; it's ISR too) as it extends. I guess it's possible to get a lot of pronation with a toss over the baseline, but it would require a lot of flexibility and maybe even straining to continue pronating a lot in the follow through. Am I making sense here?

why would you have to extend more if you make contact further into the court?

 

[LeeD]

Just doesn't make sense to me.
If you toss farther into the court, you would still need to hit the twist high over the net, and pronation doesn't help with ball height.
So, the only thing that allows high net clearance on twist serves is an up and out swing, pivoting from your shoulder.

 

[Topspin Shot]

why would you have to extend more if you make contact further into the court?

Hmm, I'm not doing a good job of stating this. Say you toss the ball directly over your head. You reach up and hit the ball. Your arm pronates as you approach contact, and the ball leaves the strings. Now you're coming down during the follow through, and your body isn't falling into the court. Your arm has nothing to do but fall down with your body, and it doesn't continue to pronate. You get a dirty diaper type finish. Now you toss the ball into the court. You hit it, the ball leaves your strings, and this time, your arm continues to pronate after you hit it because you're going out, not down. Your strings face the right side fence in the classic Sampras finish, and you've gotten more pronation through the hitting zone.

 

[LeeD]

After contact, the ball leaving the strings, your racket is still moving UP and outwards.
If you toss far into the court, you will hit low kick serves, that land short if they clear the net and DON'T kick.

 

[Topspin Shot]

After contact, the ball leaving the strings, your racket is still moving UP and outwards.

Yes, but the stage where the racket is still moving up and out is not the stage where you see the classic pronated finish. In the image of Stosur, if we say contact is 20, then the racket is still moving up and out until maybe 22. The pronated finish happens later, past frame 28.

 

[LeeD]

1. Kinda like the WW finish of a modern forehand?
2. If you watched the AO, Sam barely hits any twist serves anymore.
3. Please, less analysis, more tennis.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Again, I can't guarantee that this is a kick serve but I believe that it is.

Notice the movement of the hand in these 4 frames. The hand goes forward and down a little but not up. Notice how the length of the racket appears to lengthen as viewed by the camera. That is because of the forearm-racket angle. The racket strings get an upward motion probably mostly because the angle between the forearm and racket is increasing rapidly. Wrist motions may also be going on. See any wrist snap in these 17 milliseconds?

Frame #1 - before impact, racket rising. Notice racket is at an angle away from the camera, it appears shortened.
Frame #2 - impact ball has moved, racket rising, Reference highest part of racket to the guy in the background.
Frame #3 - racket rising.
Frame #4 - racket rose some more. Racket appears longer than 17 milliseconds ago because the forearm-racket angle changed.

 

[Cheetah]

pronation has already started in frame 10 and continues all the way till 28.

 

[Cheetah]

here's a heath waters vid. she's pregnant. she's not tossing the ball into the court. she barely jumps at all. lands behind the baseline. Ball gets a lot of kick. classic kick finish.
http://youtu.be/rxQN2Pmw3q8?t=2m07s

 

[beRafa]

What I said before there are no different between the first and the second. Both of them use pronation to make kick serve. I agree that supination which make the different. Profesional player like sampras very loose and very accelerated his racket so many supination he can pronate to the ball. But of course many road to rome. You also can combine both theory.
I have tried both of them. For me if you want heavy kick ( more speed ) use the first and if you want more up and safe ( more spin ) use the second.

 

[GuyClinch]

I say this because the arm naturally pronates (I'm being loose with the term; it's ISR too) as it extends. I guess it's possible to get a lot of pronation with a toss over the baseline, but it would require a lot of flexibility and maybe even straining to continue pronating a lot in the follow through. Am I making sense here?

I think swing speed likely factors into it. Its pretty hard to really swing out and not pronate. If you are doing demo type swings and are essentially throwing softly - you won't get as much pronation.

The pros are swinging much faster and pronating much more. Look at the Tomas demo - as he swings faster and harder he pronates more and more.

But here is the thing - we don't have to 'worry' about pronation. Its not a different technique - I think you are right the difference in pronation is about where you make contact with the ball - and IMHO the swing speed..

Pronation takes care of itself. BTW - I don't agree with Lee's theory that 'only the pros can do so and so.' Amateurs can hit 100 mph flat serves and 80mph kick serves with a very similar motion to what the pros use.

Its inferior but not a different kind of stroke. Like I said before I think the OP is wrong. There are not two type of kick serves. There are softer less aggressive kick servers that don't kick much and kick serves with more pace - tossed more into the court and hit with more racquet head speed. But its the same thing that pros do..

A football throw is a good example. Not everyone can throw the football 60 yards in the air. But with a little bit of work everyone can throw something like the way Tom Brady does..but maybe only 40 yards.

 

[LeeD]

My theory was NOT "only the pros can do it"....
My theory is, "although Roger can do it, WE CANNOT DO THE SAME!
Get it? YOU cannot hit twist serves like Federer.
YOU cannot hit forehands like Nadal.
YOU cannot serve like SamGroth.

 

[Chas Tennis]

The view of the serve from above is rare. FYB has some of the best high speed videos with the Frank Salazar serves. Toly composite picture showing some kick serve characteristics.

Notice the impact is back farther relative to the head. Be careful with the advice to toss over your head - because your body & head move forward quite a bit from toss to impact. The racket appears to be more vertical at impact in these slice and flat serves than the kick serve.

Serena rotates her body and racquet around spine counterclockwise (above view). An arm pronation rotates the racquet in horizontal plane in opposite direction - clockwise. To provide proper racquet orientation at contact Serena must use arm pronation. Unfortunately, these two motions compensate each other and arm pronation contributes almost nothing to RHS. How does she generate power, mostly due to spine rotation, arm rotation, and wrist flexion?

Here are FYB Frank Salazar different serves. There is big difference between Salazar and Serena slice serve. Which one is better?

 

[LeeD]

Been saying, flat serve impact zone is most forward.
Top/slice and pure slice very similar, in the middle.
Twist serve impact zone most back, almost behind the baseline for some players who don't want to move forwards.

 

[Topspin Shot]

here's a heath waters vid. she's pregnant. she's not tossing the ball into the court. she barely jumps at all. lands behind the baseline. Ball gets a lot of kick. classic kick finish.
http://youtu.be/rxQN2Pmw3q8?t=2m07s

It's a really good kick serve. I do see less pronation in the finish than normal, which I think is because of the way she tossed the ball. The whole point I was trying to make is that there aren't two different mechanics for high level kick serves like the OP seemed to think. If you see a lot of pronation, it is a result of the larger picture, part of which I believe is tossing out into the court.

 

[LeeD]

Problem here....
On kick serves, the faster you swing, the higher you need to aim over the net.
Most girls don't swing as fast as a lot of guys. Vid shows a beautiful twist serve, but maybe not an EFFECTIVE twist serve in competition.
To hit the ball higher, you need to raise the trajectory. Meaning, your contact point has to be farther back the faster you swing, so it's variable.
I'm not knocking anything about Federer's kick serve. He manuevers his body under his toss, and makes it work his way.
But maybe we should TRY hitting some twist serves, before we go all theory.

 

[psv255]

Might get blasted for this, but imo the markedly late pronated finish is essential to the correct swingpath on the kicker, to the point where one should be taught to focus on it to get more racket speed. Again, NOT when first learning the serve, but to increase spin potential.

Rafter's cue about swinging from 5 to 11 is intimately tied with this. The pronation is part of the follow-thru, but note that this pronation in the Stosur diagram above actually does happen from 5 to 11 - you've already hit the ball before you go down. It forces you to accelerate more while hitting the ball because you're trying to get the racket to go down much faster.

You do swing up on a kicker, but to really give it some bite, you can exaggerate the 'down' follow through more to hit up more quickly.

 

[Cheetah]

It's a really good kick serve. I do see less pronation in the finish than normal, which I think is because of the way she tossed the ball. The whole point I was trying to make is that there aren't two different mechanics for high level kick serves like the OP seemed to think. If you see a lot of pronation, it is a result of the larger picture, part of which I believe is tossing out into the court.

Tossing into the court is not related to the amount of pronation. On a kick serve the ball is contacted the same way whether in the court or behind the baseline which is chest facing the sidefence throughout the swing, which is different than the other serves, and the swing path goes toward the side fence. Even the Fed vid you posted does not have him leaping in to the court at at any huge amount. the lower half of his torso is still behind the baseline at contact. He's just leaning the top half of his body over the baseline in order to make contact with his chest facing the fence. He's not launching himself into the court like you do on a flat serve.

Here's is her finish. She is still behind the baseline. She has pronated just about as much as humanly possible. Her wrist is pronated such that her palm and fingers are now facing the camera and has even gone a little past that amount to where in the next frame her wrist was even more pronated and the racquet head started to go up but the image was too fuzzy.
Her arm is fully extended.

 

[Ballinbob]

You do swing up on a kicker, but to really give it some bite, you can exaggerate the 'down' follow through more to hit up more quickly.

This is exactly what I do. I actually feel like I'm hitting down when I hit kick serves, not up. It's a really good tip IMO and you get a lot more bite this way

 

[LeeD]

Why not exxagerate the UP and OUT motion, and allow the followthru to happen naturally?

 

[psv255]

Why not exxagerate the UP and OUT motion, and allow the followthru to happen naturally?

Whatever works for you, also could be your definition of up and out is different from mine, someone else's, etc. That might cause some people to push up and out and stall before they even hit the ball, losing a lot of bite.
Also if you try to force 'up and out' it can make you go out of your comfortable range of motion and throw out your shoulder. Assuming you have good drive and extension, a better cue would be to accelerate down and to the side in the follow thru, since that would be more natural to the movement of the torso and shoulder joint.

 

[LeeD]

Interesting take, and one applied to golf also. The followthru as important as the actual forward swing.
I will try it next time out, following thru fully on the hitting side.

 

[Ballinbob]

Interesting take, and one applied to golf also. The followthru as important as the actual forward swing.
I will try it next time out, following thru fully on the hitting side.

It works Lee. You'll feel like your hitting down on the ball but your kick will have a lot of bite. It's a very natural swing too

 

[LeeD]

Thanks, I'll come back with results, if I make it to the courts. Supposed to rain tonight, meaning wet courts in the morning.

 

[toly]

What I said before there are no different between the first and the second. Both of them use pronation to make kick serve. I agree that supination which make the different. Profesional player like sampras very loose and very accelerated his racket so many supination he can pronate to the ball. But of course many road to rome. You also can combine both theory.
I have tried both of them. For me if you want heavy kick ( more speed ) use the first and if you want more up and safe ( more spin ) use the second.

You are absolutely right. This is good example.

1. Rafter’s first serve with extensive forearm supination and superior arm pronation.
2. Rafter’s second serve with reduced forearm supination and practically without arm pronation before contact. :shock:

 

[Topspin Shot]

Tossing into the court is not related to the amount of pronation. On a kick serve the ball is contacted the same way whether in the court or behind the baseline which is chest facing the sidefence throughout the swing, which is different than the other serves, and the swing path goes toward the side fence. Even the Fed vid you posted does not have him leaping in to the court at at any huge amount. the lower half of his torso is still behind the baseline at contact. He's just leaning the top half of his body over the baseline in order to make contact with his chest facing the fence. He's not launching himself into the court like you do on a flat serve.

Here's is her finish. She is still behind the baseline. She has pronated just about as much as humanly possible. Her wrist is pronated such that her palm and fingers are now facing the camera and has even gone a little past that amount to where in the next frame her wrist was even more pronated and the racquet head started to go up but the image was too fuzzy.
Her arm is fully extended.

Okay, I see where you're coming from. You're right that biomechanically, she is pronating fully. I was thinking of the strings facing more toward the right side fence more, as they do on this Sampras kick serve where he's serving and volleying. In a way, I was kind of getting at psv's tip about driving the kick serve down into the court. You toss it more in front, you really feel like you're snapping the ball down, and the strings face more toward the side fence. But again, you are right about the biomechanics.

 

[Cheetah]

Okay, I see where you're coming from. You're right that biomechanically, she is pronating fully. I was thinking of the strings facing more toward the right side fence more, as they do on this Sampras kick serve where he's serving and volleying. In a way, I was kind of getting at psv's tip about driving the kick serve down into the court. You toss it more in front, you really feel like you're snapping the ball down, and the strings face more toward the side fence. But again, you are right about the biomechanics.

The 'hitting down' feeling comes from the quick 'snap' of the wrist and is a trick of the mind. There is no hitting down occurring at all. This is why they say "Feel is not real". The ball is struck going up.

You posted a pic of sampras in an earlier part of the swing.
Here is Lindsay from 3 different swings. His shoulders might be slightly more vertical than lindsay because she's a female... and pregnant.
Still you can see the same position from not moving forward and barely leaving the ground.
Also pete is going wide left w/ that serve and lindsay is going wide right so that would account for any other difference.