Confessions of an ex-pusher

[Moveforwardalways]

Alright TT community, I am going to admit something and come clean. I used to be a pusher/junk baller/etc, whatever you want to call it. This was decades ago when I was playing high school and starting to play USTA junior regional tournaments (the system was different back then).

I don't play like that today, because I ultimately realized the limitations of that style of play, and I now play "real tennis", so to speak. But in fact, pushing and junk balling are second nature to me, and I can do it in my sleep. Want to get in a slice, drop shot, lob, etc war? I welcome it. These days I often show up to a match and during warm ups the opponent decides they are not going to trade topspin drives with me and they elect to go the junk ball route only to realize that I can out-junk them all day long.

I guess the point of this post is partly humorous and partly to say that pushing and junk balling are useful skills to have. So don't be a hater. It is especially useful when you can alternate junk balls and "real tennis" shots, keeping your opponent off balance and out of rhythm. But to those of you pushing (you know who you are), I would never try to tell you how to enjoy your hobbie, but if you develop some additional "real tennis" skills, your pushing/junk ball shots can become quite the weapon in rec tennis. However, if that's all you got, good players are going to keep beating you and prevent your advancement.

 

[Startzel]

I actually agree a former junk baller can be a really tough opponent. I never learned to play that way so I don't have many of those strokes they have. So I can be at a disadvantage when playing one.

 

[dgold44]

I actually agree a former junk baller can be a really tough opponent. I never learned to play that way so I don't have many of those strokes they have. So I can be at a disadvantage when playing one.

I am a former push and still play as a half push
Just played a huge push in USTA and I resorted back to my junk game to win
I completly tighten up and did not hit out
Happy to win but disappointed I played like a wimp !!!

 

[norcal]

Hey what can I say, it was easy money and it paid most of my expenses through college.

Oh wait, wrong thread!

 

[dgold44]

Hey what can I say, it was easy money and it paid most of my expenses through college.

Oh wait, wrong thread!

How are things in SF ???
Can u get me a job with Larry Ellison ??
Lol

 

[dgold44]

SF is most represented city on this board and home to the great Brad Gilbert and even far greater warriors

 

[dgold44]

All my city does is rain

I reached the age where 6 months of rain is utterly miserable

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Alright TT community, I am going to admit something and come clean. I used to be a pusher/junk baller/etc, whatever you want to call it. This was decades ago when I was playing high school and starting to play USTA junior regional tournaments (the system was different back then).

I don't play like that today, because I ultimately realized the limitations of that style of play, and I now play "real tennis", so to speak. But in fact, pushing and junk balling are second nature to me, and I can do it in my sleep. Want to get in a slice, drop shot, lob, etc war? I welcome it. These days I often show up to a match and during warm ups the opponent decides they are not going to trade topspin drives with me and they elect to go the junk ball route only to realize that I can out-junk them all day long.

I guess the point of this post is partly humorous and partly to say that pushing and junk balling are useful skills to have. So don't be a hater. It is especially useful when you can alternate junk balls and "real tennis" shots, keeping your opponent off balance and out of rhythm. But to those of you pushing (you know who you are), I would never try to tell you how to enjoy your hobbie, but if you develop some additional "real tennis" skills, your pushing/junk ball shots can become quite the weapon in rec tennis. However, if that's all you got, good players are going to keep beating you and prevent your advancement.

Agree. I want to have as many skills as possible because I never know what type of opponent is next up. I can totally see how I might need pushing skills when faced with a 5.0 BL basher who will blow me out of the water if I attempt to simply trade GSs.

I also agree that I think sticking with solely pushing will place lower limits on you than otherwise. However, as I posted before, there are a host of other factors that limits one's advancement besides what style you play and those factors may place even lower limits than choosing to push. If I was advising someone, I'd tell them I thought that learning sound technique gives them the most room for improvement, all other things being equal. If they had already been playing that way for 10 years, the chance of them switching is miniscule.

 

[dgold44]

Agree. I want to have as many skills as possible because I never know what type of opponent is next up. I can totally see how I might need pushing skills when faced with a 5.0 BL basher who will blow me out of the water if I attempt to simply trade GSs.

I also agree that I think sticking with solely pushing will place lower limits on you than otherwise. However, as I posted before, there are a host of other factors that limits one's advancement besides what style you play and those factors may place even lower limits than choosing to push. If I was advising someone, I'd tell them I thought that learning sound technique gives them the most room for improvement, all other things being equal. If they had already been playing that way for 10 years, the chance of them switching is miniscule.

My goal was to play aggressive but I played like a wimp and out pushed him
Not happy

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

My goal was to play aggressive but I played like a wimp and out pushed him
Not happy

Just look at it as motivation for the next time you find yourself in that situation.

 

[darrinbaker00]

SF is most represented city on this board and home to the great Brad Gilbert and even far greater warriors

Brad Gilbert and the Warriors are from Oakland, the Right Side of the Bay. By the way, so was Don Budge, tennis' first Grand Slam winner.

 

[dgold44]

Brad Gilbert and the Warriors are from Oakland, the Right Side of the Bay. By the way, so was Don Budge, tennis' first Grand Slam winner.

Warriors may be best pure shooting team of all time

 

[VexlanderPrime]

don't be a hater. It is especially useful when you can alternate junk balls and "real tennis" shots, keeping your opponent off balance and out of rhythm. But to those of you pushing (you know who you are), I would never try to tell you how to enjoy your hobbie, but if you develop some additional "real tennis" skills, your pushing/junk ball shots can become quite the weapon in rec tennis. However, if that's all you got, good players are going to keep beating you and prevent your advancement.

TRUTH

 

[PushyPushster]

But to those of you pushing (you know who you are), I would never try to tell you how to enjoy your hobbie, but if you develop some additional "real tennis" skills, your pushing/junk ball shots can become quite the weapon in rec tennis.

I've saved thousands of dollars in lessons (by not taking them) and I don't plan to change now, sir. You go ahead and improve your game by learning how to play real tennis ... but not me.

I plan to keep insulting the institution of tennis one push at a time.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Junk balling is actually a skill. You have to have touch and ability to produce different spins. Straight pushing is far less skillful. You just have to float the ball back and be in shape. I respect junkballers, I detest the pure pusher.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

Junk balling is actually a skill. You have to have touch and ability to produce different spins. Straight pushing is far less skillful. You just have to float the ball back and be in shape. I respect junkballers, I detest the pure pusher.

If we are making a distinction between pushers and junk ballers, I far more commonly encounter junk ballers. True pushers, as you describe them, are rare in my world. But that may be due to level of play. Maybe I should have titled the thread "confessions of an ex-junk baller" since I never pushed in the way you describe (couldn't have even if I wanted to).

 

[Startzel]

Junk balling is actually a skill. You have to have touch and ability to produce different spins. Straight pushing is far less skillful. You just have to float the ball back and be in shape. I respect junkballers, I detest the pure pusher.

In my experiences junk ballers hit a couple of great shots and take credit for a bunch of miss hits.

 

[ZirkusAffe]

In my experiences junk ballers hit a couple of great shots and take credit for a bunch of miss hits.

I usually yell 'needed a little more frame', or 'damn, less frame next time'.. is that what you mean? not from miss hits from slice/spin/ over exaggerated top.. but this is play for fun I don't say that during matches I'm way to conservative to junk'ball.. besides occasional side spin overhead from the baseline which is my favorite..

 

[dgold44]

I normally hit out half the time but when my confidence drops I can turn major push

 

[wsk429]

I am a former push and still play as a half push
Just played a huge push in USTA and I resorted back to my junk game to win
I completly tighten up and did not hit out
Happy to win but disappointed I played like a wimp !!!

So you went from a half-push to an all out nothing but push? lol

 

[dgold44]

So you went from a half-push to an all out nothing but push? lol

Yup
But I can to net about a dozen times and my opponent only once

 

[MathGeek]

In my experiences junk ballers hit a couple of great shots and take credit for a bunch of miss hits.

My secret is out.

 

[Ft.S]

I think if we cannot beat a junk baller we're no better than any 3.0 level. However, I have seen couple of 4.0 level pushers and that is an incredible challenge to beat them for me, and I haven't yet. I feel it is part of my learning and experience to deal with such players, and they truly 'push' me to be better all around.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I think if we cannot beat a junk baller we're no better than any 3.0 level. However, I have seen couple of 4.0 level pushers and that is an incredible challenge to beat them for me, and I haven't yet. I feel it is part of my learning and experience to deal with such players, and they truly 'push' me to be better all around.

I think you have the right attitude for someone who wants to improve. Just think how much better a player you will be when you finally start beating them.

 

[heninfan99]

I think having some junk in your game is a big asset.

 

[eelhc]

Come on... admit it... We all love...

• Hitting a deep ball to a corner and following it up with a well executed drop shot winner to the opposite corner
• Watching the opponent set up for an apparent winner on a floater only to have it spin back towards the net
• Mixing in a short server just over a net on 1st serve when the opponent is sitting too far back
• etc...

Or am I particularly demented?

 

[norcal]

Come on... admit it... We all love...

• Hitting a deep ball to a corner and following it up with a well executed drop shot winner to the opposite corner
• Watching the opponent set up for an apparent winner on a floater only to have it spin back towards the net
• Mixing in a short server just over a net on 1st serve when the opponent is sitting too far back
• etc...

Or am I particularly demented?

No, you aren't.

Your first example is not pushing, it is beautiful tennis!

The next two may be pushing but are successful more due to the opponent lacking awareness/anticipation than the 'not real tennis' pusher - If you can't read extreme spin (or short in the box serve) you just aren't that good at tennis.

 

[WarrenMP]

Come on... admit it... We all love...

• Hitting a deep ball to a corner and following it up with a well executed drop shot winner to the opposite corner
• Watching the opponent set up for an apparent winner on a floater only to have it spin back towards the net
• Mixing in a short server just over a net on 1st serve when the opponent is sitting too far back
• etc...

Or am I particularly demented?

When serving, I've never thought of doing a short serve when the returner is very far back. I might just do a short top spin ball to drop it short. What type of serve should I use to serve short?

 

[eelhc]

When serving, I've never thought of doing a short serve when the returner is very far back. I might just do a short top spin ball to drop it short. What type of serve should I use to serve short?

Best situation is when your opponent is set up for a hard flat serve down the T. Stare down the T.. Then just spin one soft and wide.

 

[comeback]

Pusher vs Pusher..i can incorporate offensive tennis if my opponent is a little below me in level..But i'll usually start off my matches with consistent counterpunching-type pushing and see what progresses...Anyway recently i underestimated a guy who after i won the 1st set 6-1 started pushing so i thought i could just push back better (wrong strategy)..After several 20-30 shot rallies i started cramping at 3-4 and had that sinking feeling i would have to default the 3rd set..I was extremely lucky to win in straight sets 6-1, 6-4 after going offensive and hitting some lines..lesson learned

 

[eelhc]

Pusher vs Pusher..i can incorporate offensive tennis if my opponent is a little below me in level..But i'll usually start off my matches with consistent counterpunching-type pushing and see what progresses...Anyway recently i underestimated a guy who after i won the 1st set 6-1 started pushing so i thought i could just push back better (wrong strategy)..After several 20-30 shot rallies i started cramping at 3-4 and had that sinking feeling i would have to default the 3rd set..I was extremely lucky to win in straight sets 6-1, 6-4 after going offensive and hitting some lines..lesson learned

Smart opponent...

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Pusher vs Pusher..i can incorporate offensive tennis if my opponent is a little below me in level..But i'll usually start off my matches with consistent counterpunching-type pushing and see what progresses...Anyway recently i underestimated a guy who after i won the 1st set 6-1 started pushing so i thought i could just push back better (wrong strategy)..After several 20-30 shot rallies i started cramping at 3-4 and had that sinking feeling i would have to default the 3rd set..I was extremely lucky to win in straight sets 6-1, 6-4 after going offensive and hitting some lines..lesson learned

Another lesson is to improve your fitness so you won't have to hit lines to win the next time.

 

[comeback]

Another lesson is to improve your fitness so you won't have to hit lines to win the next time.

Yeah, i wish it were my fitness.but it's basically due to injuries causing imbalances which need surgery

 

[lobman]

Junkballers and pushers of the world unite! I knew there were some soul mates lurking out there; thanks for coming out!

Lobman

 

[Enga]

I agree with the poster. Throwing constant junk at an opponent isnt the best idea, because basically youre training your opponent to deal with a large variety of shots. You may win today, but your opponent gets pretty much all the benefit, as they slowly learn to deal with your shots. Mixing junk shots in occasionally is the best way to go, either to stay in the points or keep opponents guessing. The reason that tennis theory and tennis basic techniques exists is because it gives the maximum in consistency, accuracy, and power. These are the shots that we should all want to be our bread and butter shots, that we can produce effortlessly, while having other skills like junk balling as variety.

 

[Bobs tennis]

This entire discussion confuses me. What is "real Tennis"? Watching a big server smash 20/30 aces is boring. Serving with angles and spin is interesting. Watching two players hit extremely hard at each other waiting for someone to overhit doesn't impress me. Watching someone hit deep and with high bounce then short to the opposite court is interesting tennis. When one player hits very hard and the other just directs his return short and angled, is in my eyes, interesting to watch and takes more talent. I play an opponent who moonballs constantly until he sees an opening, then takes advantage. Recently I heard someone scream out to him "hit the ball". How many times have you heard a loser claim his opponent beat him but he was a pusher, if your good take those moonballs,dinks,chips,and lobs and put them away. Not looking for an argument just my opinion. Actually as I write this I wish I could be a better pusher....

 

[Startzel]

This entire discussion confuses me. What is "real Tennis"? Watching a big server smash 20/30 aces is boring. Serving with angles and spin is interesting. Watching two players hit extremely hard at each other waiting for someone to overhit doesn't impress me. Watching someone hit deep and with high bounce then short to the opposite court is interesting tennis. When one player hits very hard and the other just directs his return short and angled, is in my eyes, interesting to watch and takes more talent. I play an opponent who moonballs constantly until he sees an opening, then takes advantage. Recently I heard someone scream out to him "hit the ball". How many times have you heard a loser claim his opponent beat him but he was a pusher, if your good take those moonballs,dinks,chips,and lobs and put them away. Not looking for an argument just my opinion. Actually as I write this I wish I could be a better pusher....

I'm sorry you find tennis to be boring. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Buford T Justice]

. I play an opponent who moonballs constantly until he sees an opening, then takes advantage.

A good tennis buddy of mine plays the same way. In short, conservative most of the time (he will simply outlast you and not make any errors), but when the opportunity arises, he shows he can belt the ball for a winner. This strategy works very very well, even up to the higher rec levels IMO (he plays Ultimate Tennis 6.0-). Its not "pushing" per se, but simply smart percentage tennis.

 

[Bobs tennis]

I'm sorry you find tennis to be boring. Different strokes for different folks.

I Think you have to read my post again. I am addicted to tennis and do not find it boring but don't enjoy certain styles just as others don't enjoy pushers. I have played many players that are definitely stronger hitters with big serves but I feel there is more to the game and handle myself well against that style. I tried for several years to outhit the hitters and big servers until a friend showed me how to hit with more variety and begin to win. Sure I heard he's started dinking, blocking, lobing a lot but those loses started turning to wins As you said "different strokes for different folks"...

 

[Startzel]

I Think you have to read my post again. I am addicted to tennis and do not find it boring but don't enjoy certain styles just as others don't enjoy pushers. I have played many players that are definitely stronger hitters with big serves but I feel there is more to the game and handle myself well against that style. I tried for several years to outhit the hitters and big servers until a friend showed me how to hit with more variety and begin to win. Sure I heard he's started dinking, blocking, lobing a lot but those loses started turning to wins As you said "different strokes for different folks"...

I get why you enjoy pushing.

But I can't comprehend how you could ever watch federer and think, "man that's boring."

 

[Bobs tennis]

I get why you enjoy pushing.

But I can't comprehend how you could ever watch federer and think, "man that's boring."

Watching one of the top athletes in the world play another one at the same level is by no means boring, although watching Isner serve at that top level is not as interesting as Federer trying many different things to get past an opponent.In fact he is the perfect person to bring up because he really uses his head and variety to beat opponents. Drop down many,many levels and rec players could and should use more variety and thinking and do much better.

 

[Startzel]

Watching one of the top athletes in the world play another one at the same level is by no means boring, although watching Isner serve at that top level is not as interesting as Federer trying many different things to get past an opponent.In fact he is the perfect person to bring up because he really uses his head and variety to beat opponents. Drop down many,many levels and rec players could and should use more variety and thinking and do much better.

Ah so aces aren't boring, it just depends on who is hitting them? Interesting approach.

 

[Bobs tennis]

[Quote- watching Isner serve at that top level is not as interesting as Federer-That is what I said but I'll be more direct. It is boring to watch Isner,He has no other weapons at that level and he either serves well or goes home. I have an opponent who was a college baseball pitcher and has a big serve but seldom wins because he has no other weapons and a "smart" pusher who gets it moves him around and wins all the time.

 

[ZirkusAffe]

If I decide to go with a low consistent penetrating slice bh corner to corner more than driving the ball on my fh am I 'pushing'? If I play someone who is blowing me off the court with deep shots I will control the ball dtl and cross-court via slice bh because I cannot either match the power or I'm in just get the ball back mode.. is that pushing, or junk ball is low powered shots with under/side/slice (spins) on them? Sometimes I just cannot hit my 1hbh (top spin) at least beginning of a match so I slice because it's way more comfortable early on especially if I hadn't warmed up my timing on that side.. but if its effective I will slice 80% of the time and not work off a 1hbh top spin shot except on weaker second serves to my bh. I'm just wondering if I junk ball/push more than I think..

 

[Startzel]

If I decide to go with a low consistent penetrating slice bh corner to corner more than driving the ball on my fh am I 'pushing'? If I play someone who is blowing me off the court with deep shots I will control the ball dtl and cross-court via slice bh because I cannot either match the power or I'm in just get the ball back mode.. is that pushing, or junk ball is low powered shots with under/side/slice (spins) on them? Sometimes I just cannot hit my 1hbh (top spin) at least beginning of a match so I slice because it's way more comfortable early on especially if I hadn't warmed up my timing on that side.. but if its effective I will slice 80% of the time and not work off a 1hbh top spin shot except on weaker second serves to my bh. I'm just wondering if I junk ball/push more than I think..

This sounds like you're just being strategic, not pushing.

 

[Dartagnan64]

If I decide to go with a low consistent penetrating slice bh corner to corner more than driving the ball on my fh am I 'pushing'? If I play someone who is blowing me off the court with deep shots I will control the ball dtl and cross-court via slice bh because I cannot either match the power or I'm in just get the ball back mode.. is that pushing, or junk ball is low powered shots with under/side/slice (spins) on them? Sometimes I just cannot hit my 1hbh (top spin) at least beginning of a match so I slice because it's way more comfortable early on especially if I hadn't warmed up my timing on that side.. but if its effective I will slice 80% of the time and not work off a 1hbh top spin shot except on weaker second serves to my bh. I'm just wondering if I junk ball/push more than I think..

I think Steffi Graf hit 90% slices off her BH and I wouldn't call her a pusher. Deep slices are strategic to the moment. they can keep you in a point.

To me a pusher is that guy who gets a short ball, dinks it back then retreats back to 3 feet behind the baseline. That's the key characteristic of the pusher. Even the most aggressive players will hit defensive shots when an aggressive shot is just too ridiculously high risk. Lobs, slices, drop shots all happen in the pro game. But you'll never see a pro or even a 4.5 and higher player, take a short ball and softly put it back down the middle and then retreat back. They will hit an outright winner or they will hit a deep penetrating approach shot and get to the net.

 

[Bobs tennis]

I kinda got to agree with the last few posts. I get all tied up in this phrase probably because I hear it used so often describing an opponents play.

 

[user92626]

I don't detest or judge anyone's tennis. There are basically only two types of players to me. One that beats me and the other that loses to me. Their level is second priority. The fun of playing with someone takes first priority.

Heck, I just realize there's a third category of player to me. This category neither win nor lose to me. They just ...hit. Priority #1 is still the same. HAA!

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

This sounds like you're just being strategic, not pushing.

What defines one vs the other?

 

[Startzel]

What defines one vs the other?

Common sense.

Being defensive because you're outmatched makes sense. It's completely different than your main method of attack being pushing no matter your opponent.