pushing_wins
Hall of Fame
watching your video again. u are pretty good.
do u ever play intercounty for churchill?
do u ever play intercounty for churchill?
serves are easy
i came to that conclusion because a lot of WTA has technically sound serves. their forehands all stink
Don't be offended but you're quite naive and don't know what you're talking about!!!!!
WTA pros all have very technically sound groundstrokes, FH, BH, volley, ect. They don't have the level of ATP men's power but they're still superior to almost all recreational players!
A year ago, like you I thought girls hit like...a girl LOL, until I saw some girl juniors, 15, 16 yrs old, playing a doubles. Their shots were freaking fast and furious, man. Faster than any games I ever played in at the parks. And, they were only juniors.
And there's another girl I occasionally saw practicing with a guy. Her bh shots consistently landed close to the baseline and then hit the back fence at waist height. If you could hit with that much pace and spin, 8 out 10 shots, I'd consider you better.
watching your video again. u are pretty good.
do u ever play intercounty for churchill?
I think that the wrist muscles are active. Our brain should not rely on passive channeled action. I'll try to proof this statement without speculation.My current understanding, which has been updated since I created this thread, is that you're partially right.
I don't think that the conservation of angular momentum principle plays as much a role between torso and arm as it does within the arm itself.
Since I was mentioned in the OP, I believe the example I put up was that the poster was flying open with his chest too soon, and cutting off his power, and I was advising to stay closed/square longer.
J
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']I think that the wrist muscles are active. Our brain should not rely on passive channeled action. I'll try to proof this statement without speculation.[/font]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']There are a lot of different serve routines. In case of the spin serve, during pronation phase we usually keep the wrist in neutral position (racquet string bed constantly in vertical position) and we use only wrist ulnar deviation to produce spin, and pronation to create flat component of the racquet speed. There is no wrist flexion at all. [/font]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']In case of the flat serve, during pronation phase we keep the wrist bended back, the face of the racquet in the semi open position until the last moment before impact. Then we use the wrist flexion to create flat components of the racquet speed. We also should stop ulnar deviation from active action. All these different complicated routines cannot just rely on unconscious whip effect. They must be controlled by our brain, because they are very different. Hence, the wrist must be active and controlled by brain until we write all this information in our muscle’s memory. [/font]
That makes sense, that would mean a more pronounce brake like the OP suggested.
This is why you want to prolong the tossing arm extension at ball toss. It would add some mechanical brake along with gravity.
How interesting, but you should know the debate between conscious wrist snap vs a natural wrist snap makes regular appearances in this forum. I will try to find them.
I believe that my previous post proves that Whip Effect Theory cannot be used to describe any tennis serve.How interesting, but you should know the debate between conscious wrist snap vs a natural wrist snap makes regular appearances in this forum. I will try to find them.
I believe that my previous post proves that Whip Effect Theory cannot be used to describe any tennis serve.
I think that the wrist muscles are active. Our brain should not rely on passive channeled action. I'll try to proof this statement without speculation.
There are a lot of different serve routines. In case of the spin serve, during pronation phase we usually keep the wrist in neutral position (racquet string bed constantly in vertical position) and we use only wrist ulnar deviation to produce spin, and pronation to create flat component of the racquet speed. There is no wrist flexion at all.
In case of the flat serve, during pronation phase we keep the wrist bended back, the face of the racquet in the semi open position until the last moment before impact. Then we use the wrist flexion to create flat components of the racquet speed. We also should stop ulnar deviation from active action. All these different complicated routines cannot just rely on unconscious whip effect. They must be controlled by our brain, because they are very different. Hence, the wrist must be active and controlled by brain until we write all this information in our muscle’s memory.
Since I was mentioned in the OP, I believe the example I put up was that the poster was flying open with his chest too soon, and cutting off his power, and I was advising to stay closed/square longer.
J
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']I have different definition of the kinetic chain. Suppose we have four straight pieces of steal. First imitates the torso, 2 – upper arm, 3 – forearm, 4 – wrist. We connect them in special chain together. Between each of them we install joint with powerful electrical motor which imitates active angular movement. The last connection should have complicated joint and corresponding motors to imitate ulnar and flexion of the wrist. This kinetic chain is active and much more powerful then passive one. Obviously, the passive model cannot describe properly behavior of the active one. Hence, passive Whip Effect Theory is not very good for description of the any tennis stroke. [/font]Nope you describe fine motor movement. That's actually a related, however separate topic than OP which describes transfer for energy. This doesn't have to occur without energy transfer. Otherwise are you going against the idea of a kinetic chain?
This kinetic chain is active and much more powerful then passive one. Obviously, the passive model cannot describe properly behavior of the active one. Hence, passive Whip Effect Theory is not very good for description of the any tennis stroke. [/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Passive model also should have one motor between torso and upper arm. Suppose both models have the same first motor. About font, I do not know what I can do. Sorry.[/FONT]Not necessarily. If the motor at each joint can't provide enough force to match and exceed the passive force, it can end up slowing down the system.
But passive transfer means uncontrollable action. To produce different proper serve routine we have to produce different arm action. It means we must control or change them somehow. Question is – how are you going to control something without control?But to address your main argument, I think that pronation (either through elbow joint or internal rotation of the shoulder) can set the conditions for this passive transfer.
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']I have different definition of the kinetic chain. Suppose we have four straight pieces of steal. First imitates the torso, 2 – upper arm, 3 – forearm, 4 – wrist. We connect them in special chain together. Between each of them we install joint with powerful electrical motor which imitates active angular movement. The last connection should have complicated joint and corresponding motors to imitate ulnar and flexion of the wrist. This kinetic chain is active and much more powerful then passive one. Obviously, the passive model cannot describe properly behavior of the active one. Hence, passive Whip Effect Theory is not very good for description of the any tennis stroke. [/font]
Dug up this video. Mechanics of throwing football is very similar to serve:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asIfwF68xqE&feature=related
It's more obvious their shoulders square to target BEFORE extension.
Difference? Being airborne. You don't have a grounding to pivot against. So how does the transfer occur? You are working with gravity. the energy of the kinetic chain goes against the weight of the body, simulating the BRAKE of the shoulders rotation more than a physical pivot.
awesome video.
By gravity, I think you meant to say inertia, right? (provided by the (airborne) mass of the body)
What part of the body is the handle of the whip and how this handle is able to make the wrist to move in so complicated way (slice or flat serve)? Are you magician?I answered this question earlier. By changing things earlier in the chain (for example pronating by internal shoulder rotation), you set up different conditions. It's like adjusting a railway track at an early point so that the train follows a different path.
In the case of changing from a slice serve to a flat serve, internally rotating the shoulder will achieve this.
What part of the body is the handle of the whip and how this handle is able to make the wrist to move in so complicated way (slice or flat serve)? Are you magician?
If we use Continental grip, pronation can produce just flat component of the racket velocity. For slice serve we have to use wrist ulnar deviation. And pronation is not passive action. Right now you started to use active model of the Kinetic Chain.
What part of the body is the handle of the whip and how this handle is able to make the wrist to move in so complicated way (slice or flat serve)? Are you magician?
If we use Continental grip, pronation can produce just flat component of the racket velocity. For slice serve we have to use wrist ulnar deviation. And pronation is not passive action. Right now you started to use active model of the Kinetic Chain.
Man I think I'm becoming a troll and that last post was unnecessarily belligerent. I'm going to just stop now. I'm going to slowly back away from these forums lol. bye LOL
What part of the body is the handle of the whip and how this handle is able to make the wrist to move in so complicated way (slice or flat serve)? Are you magician?
If we use Continental grip, pronation can produce just flat component of the racket velocity. For slice serve we have to use wrist ulnar deviation. And pronation is not passive action. Right now you started to use active model of the Kinetic Chain.
To clarify the matter, let me send to you my article about this stuff. I did no finish it, but I belive it can clarify something.In this instance, the active portion of the chain would be the shoulder rotation. I've explained this over and over to you... I get the impression you don't understand what internal shoulder rotation is, how it contributes to pronation, and how that changes the passive dynamics at the wrist.
In medical terminology - pronation means counterclockwise rotation of the forearm. In tennis jargon - pronation also can be counterclockwise rotation of the arm. The answer is yes.toly, I'm not sure you sending me an article
For now, answer this question:
Do you understand that internal rotation of the shoulder pronates the racquet? Yes or no?
The shoulder is the part of the body between the neck and the upper arm. In anatomy, internal rotation is rotation toward the center of the body. But, what is internal rotation of the shoulder? If the right shoulder can somehow rotate toward the center of the body (I think it practically impossible), it produces clockwise rotation of the arm. Pronation means counterclockwise rotation of the arm. I'm completely lost with your explanation.But to address your main argument, I think that pronation (either through elbow joint or internal rotation of the shoulder) can set the conditions for this passive transfer.
OK, I got it. It means conunterclockwise rotation of the upper arm.http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Shoulder.html
Look at internal rotation in the above link (second from the bottom)
Forearm also can pronate by using much faster elbow joint. But, it doesn't matter.Yep, and this movement of the shoulder is the primary force behind racquet pronation.
I never actually thought of it as counterclockwise rotation of the upper arm, but you're right - no matter what position the body is in, internal rotation of the shoulder does rotate the upper arm counterclockwise. Thanks for the insight![]()
This is right, because the term "internal rotation of the shoulder" is one of the most confusing I ever met. But, I do not care about terms if I am able to comprehend them.Toly,
spacediver's use of "pronation" coming from the shoulder on serves is well accepted in tennis. Anatomically speaking it is really, "internal rotation of the shoulder". But among tennis players, "pronation on the serve" is such an ingrained concept that there is absolutely no chance that "internal rotation of the shoulder" will replace the term of "pronation" on the tennis serve.
Forearm also can pronate by using much faster elbow jint. But, it doesn't matter.
Can you be more specific and explain how we can use Whip Effect in case of the kick serve.
There are a lot of speculations about the wrist movement (the wrist snap, the wrist whip effect) during the last second before impact. Some of the tennis specialists (Vic Braden etc) say no such thing occurs. But, others (Brian Gordon and so on) insist the wrist motion is very important. But what does the wrist really do? When I’m serving I feel like my wrist is doing something very essential, however maybe my feelings mislead me. But, the pictures never lie. This time I’m going to analyze the pictures (Figure. 2.9 and Figure 2.10). They show the set of the video’s frames (last second before impact) taken during the Florent Serra and Lleyton Hewitt kick serves. Let’s pay attention to the wrist motion. These players employ the Continental grip. From above pictures we can see the racquet string pane has the practically constant vertical orientation. The hand is absolutely out straight and there is no extension or flexion of the wrist before and for the duration of the impact. At the same time the wrist ulnar deviation directs the racquet upward very fast. The pictures on Figure 2.9-2.10 show this movement takes place in the plane which coincides with the racquet string plane. Hence, it can produce the brushing boll motion only. But, the brushing motion mostly responsible for the ball rotation, not for the ball speed. The wrist ulnar deviation might be used to create different types of the spin serves and this is a very good option. Unfortunately, it also can destroy pronation effectiveness (it reduces the angle β, see step 2.1), the most important part of the tennis kick serve. The tennis players must exploit the wrist ulnar deviation very cautiously, because it can completely destroy the pronation component |VLH| of the racquet speed! OK, so far I don’t see any wrist snap in the kick serve which could add any real speed to the tennis ball, except the spin!Similarly for the circle that elbow extension traces compared to the circle that the wrist traces through space. If the forearm pronates while the elbow joint is extending, the wrist will be able to flex passively. If the forearm doesn't pronate during elbow extension, the wrist will experience passive ulnar deviation.
I'm Russian old man. English is my third language and it does not like me. That's why, I have to use Word Processor for spelling check. For example, when I copy text from your post and paste it to Word. It automatically changes the font. I tried to change font myself, but I always choose the wrong one.I'll read your post soon toly, but in the mean time, what is going on in your posts? Why do you try to put these weird font tags? Are you doing it intentionally? Are you using a regular computer?