Consistency Is the Key at 4.5 and below

[FiReFTW]

If winning isn't your immediate goal, pick the level where you get beat 6-3 ... or 6-2. You are playing better skills, but in it close enough to be in the points. I did it differently, I would not move up from 4.0 singles tournaments until I finally won one. There is value in that, because it's a huge boost in confidence to be the last guy standing. But ... you are more interested in the timeframe than I was ... play guys better but not WAY better. You generally don't learn much from 6-0,6-0 losses. Now ... if you were losing open matches 6-2,6-2 ... go for it.

Thats why i said league and those rec tourneys.

Because those open ones have mostly UTR 10-13 players, rarely anyone lower, if ur extremely lucky .

 

[pencilcheck]

Run the following experiment: play someone 3 levels below you and note the ease with which you dominate: you can get to every ball, usually in plenty of time, you can anticipate where he's going to hit and with what spin, and if you hit even the least offensive shot, you win the point.

Now play someone 3 levels above you: how come the same outcome doesn't occur? Because he's way better than you: he can hit shots that you can't retrieve; he can disguise his shot; he apparently never misses; he puts you in uncomfortable positions. You're busting your butt just to keep in the point and he's not putting out more than 20% effort and can end the point anytime he feels like it.

What are you doing "wrong"? Nothing! You're the same player who dominated the first opponent. The difference is your second opponent's skill level is much higher. Nothing you did against the first will work against the second. Ask yourself how you'd react to someone giving you the advice you gave to NYTA.

Anybody who has played a markedly superior opponent knows the dilemma NYTA was facing: if you know you're going to lose by playing your normal game, what do you do? Play your normal game and lose or try something else? Most people try something else. Your advice is unintentionally hilarious [or maddening, depending on if I'm the receiver of such advice]: it's like me boxing against a Golden Gloves winner and my corner man yells "hey, you're dropping your shoulder!", as if that's going to make a difference in the outcome.

You're engaging in what's called "Hypothetical Tennis", as in "If I played Federer, I'd do X, Y, and Z. I think I could win a few games, maybe even a set."

Your comments remind me of a kid who strolled by my court and loudly proclaimed "tennis is so EASY!!".

If tennis is so easy, then it wouldn't make sense for me to even stay at this forum, since I will be already playing futures and tourneys and get my name out there on the screen. I agree tennis is not easy.

However in this forum, I don't think putting tennis into categories and broad buckets where everything is sweeping into a very wide generalization is really helping anyone here.

Your own words: "Now play someone 3 levels above you: how come the same outcome doesn't occur? Because he's way better than you: he can hit shots that you can't retrieve; he can disguise his shot; he apparently never misses; he puts you in uncomfortable positions. You're busting your butt just to keep in the point and he's not putting out more than 20% effort and can end the point anytime he feels like it."

You are putting words into my mouth which I never mean to say at all, and I think you didn't really read my comments since you are writing more reactionary on certain keywords I think.

I recognized that people at higher level has done more work and effort to get to where they are, and low level tennis players are low level for a reason. However, normally high level players will not play low level players, if you are really put into the spot where you are hitting with someone really good, your objective is not to win, since that is not something you practiced against. Your objective is to try to change up the game, adapt to their game and try to find an opening that you can manage and learn. The high level opponent already know that they will win no matter what they do, the good reason they are still playing, is probably want to see if their opponent put into the the effort to try to get the ball in, play smarter. If you only try to challenge their strength which you are weak against, they will only laugh at you and proceed to steamroll you. Instead of doing that and gain nothing, I think a better way to think about it is to have fun and improve at the same time to make the most out of this hitting session.

Let's give an example, you mentioned the 20% is normal rally shots and the opponent has very very fast forehand and spin that you have no time to react and pick up, instead of trying to "hit harder" which you know you will make more errors, maybe the best way to adjust is to stand further back from the baseline, and not trying to hit on the rise? And if you are doing that, might as well try to return with more high percentage shots with higher bouncing "pusher" like shots with added spin to slow down the pace without compromising your positioning and perhaps slowly approaching the net and try to find a easy shot to hit a ok volley back to the middle of the court. Perhaps play up the variety and start slicing to the side if you can and make them move even though you know they will always get to the ball and maybe hit a winner but at least you tried.

Anyway, good that you share your opinion of it, perhaps I should make my comment more clear in the future.

 

[pencilcheck]

@pencilcheck - what is the UTR or NTRP rating of the best player you have ever played a match against?

I know why you are asking this question, and you all are probably misled because I'm not saying that a low level player can suddenly win by changing up his tactics.

To answer your question, I don't fully track every one's ratings, since rarely people that I hitting with (not matches) I really want to know or ask about their "actual" rating, and a lot of them don't really care or know about their exact ratings as well. The most recent one I played with some friendly matches was months ago who said he is a new 4.0 NTRP but to be honest, playing with him feels cool but it is not the same as those who have much higher ratings.

And yea, I do know how a higher rating ball would look like because I have been fortunate to see some of those in real life as an observer, and I understand how much faster, deeper, and spinnier the ball can fly, and how more athletics and accurate they can be.

 

[IowaGuy]

Let's give an example, you mentioned the 20% is normal rally shots and the opponent has very very fast forehand and spin that you have no time to react and pick up, instead of trying to "hit harder" which you know you will make more errors, maybe the best way to adjust is to stand further back from the baseline, and not trying to hit on the rise? And if you are doing that, might as well try to return with more high percentage shots with higher bouncing "pusher" like shots with added spin to slow down the pace without compromising your positioning and perhaps slowly approaching the net and try to find a easy shot to hit a ok volley back to the middle of the court. Perhaps play up the variety and start slicing to the side if you can and make them move even though you know they will always get to the ball and maybe hit a winner but at least you tried.

If you ever play a 5.5, then I think you'll realize why NYTA looked the way he did against his coach

Maybe enter an open tourney just for fun this summer, and put your theory to the test...

I think you would find it hard on most points just to get a couple of balls back into play, let alone "make them move"

 

[tlm]

I know why you are asking this question, and you all are probably misled because I'm not saying that a low level player can suddenly win by changing up his tactics.

To answer your question, I don't fully track every one's ratings, since rarely people that I hitting with (not matches) I really want to know or ask about their "actual" rating, and a lot of them don't really care or know about their exact ratings as well. The most recent one I played with some friendly matches was months ago who said he is a new 4.0 NTRP but to be honest, playing with him feels cool but it is not the same as those who have much higher ratings.

And yea, I do know how a higher rating ball would look like because I have been fortunate to see some of those in real life as an observer, and I understand how much faster, deeper, and spinnier the ball can fly, and how more athletics and accurate they can be.

Seeing those shots is nothing like trying to play against them.

 

[mcs1970]

I know why you are asking this question, and you all are probably misled because I'm not saying that a low level player can suddenly win by changing up his tactics.

To answer your question, I don't fully track every one's ratings, since rarely people that I hitting with (not matches) I really want to know or ask about their "actual" rating, and a lot of them don't really care or know about their exact ratings as well. The most recent one I played with some friendly matches was months ago who said he is a new 4.0 NTRP but to be honest, playing with him feels cool but it is not the same as those who have much higher ratings.

And yea, I do know how a higher rating ball would look like because I have been fortunate to see some of those in real life as an observer, and I understand how much faster, deeper, and spinnier the ball can fly, and how more athletics and accurate they can be.

Hitting and match play are two different things. In match play serve and return become so important. Change of grips after you execute those two things also become very important. I regularly hit against a guy who could match up very well against some of the top guys on this forum. I can hold my own,. Match play is a different beast. You are talking about taking 4 points every game against a much better player. Sounds simple in theory.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

If tennis is so easy, then it wouldn't make sense for me to even stay at this forum, since I will be already playing futures and tourneys and get my name out there on the screen. I agree tennis is not easy.

However in this forum, I don't think putting tennis into categories and broad buckets where everything is sweeping into a very wide generalization is really helping anyone here.

Your own words: "Now play someone 3 levels above you: how come the same outcome doesn't occur? Because he's way better than you: he can hit shots that you can't retrieve; he can disguise his shot; he apparently never misses; he puts you in uncomfortable positions. You're busting your butt just to keep in the point and he's not putting out more than 20% effort and can end the point anytime he feels like it."

You are putting words into my mouth which I never mean to say at all, and I think you didn't really read my comments since you are writing more reactionary on certain keywords I think.

I recognized that people at higher level has done more work and effort to get to where they are, and low level tennis players are low level for a reason. However, normally high level players will not play low level players, if you are really put into the spot where you are hitting with someone really good, your objective is not to win, since that is not something you practiced against. Your objective is to try to change up the game, adapt to their game and try to find an opening that you can manage and learn. The high level opponent already know that they will win no matter what they do, the good reason they are still playing, is probably want to see if their opponent put into the the effort to try to get the ball in, play smarter. If you only try to challenge their strength which you are weak against, they will only laugh at you and proceed to steamroll you. Instead of doing that and gain nothing, I think a better way to think about it is to have fun and improve at the same time to make the most out of this hitting session.

Let's give an example, you mentioned the 20% is normal rally shots and the opponent has very very fast forehand and spin that you have no time to react and pick up, instead of trying to "hit harder" which you know you will make more errors, maybe the best way to adjust is to stand further back from the baseline, and not trying to hit on the rise? And if you are doing that, might as well try to return with more high percentage shots with higher bouncing "pusher" like shots with added spin to slow down the pace without compromising your positioning and perhaps slowly approaching the net and try to find a easy shot to hit a ok volley back to the middle of the court. Perhaps play up the variety and start slicing to the side if you can and make them move even though you know they will always get to the ball and maybe hit a winner but at least you tried.

Anyway, good that you share your opinion of it, perhaps I should make my comment more clear in the future.

As to your example in the last paragraph, I still don't see how that's going to work against someone that much better than I.
- How do I "slowly approach the net"? I can't envision what this entails and I approach the net a ton.
- "try to find any easy shot to hit a OK volley": where in that clip did any such "easy shot" exist? I don't recall many.

My own personal experience playing someone just one level above me is like a swimmer trying to swim upstream: it's taking everything I have just to stay in one place, let alone try to make any progress. I don't have the energy to try the variety you suggest. And it would be even worse when playing someone multiple levels better.

Your reply is a lot more nuanced than your original criticisms of NYTA. The way I interpreted your comments is precisely how you're explaining above that you didn't mean. So my bad for not getting your intent but the fact that several responded in essentially the same way means your expression wasn't clear.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I know why you are asking this question, and you all are probably misled because I'm not saying that a low level player can suddenly win by changing up his tactics.

To answer your question, I don't fully track every one's ratings, since rarely people that I hitting with (not matches) I really want to know or ask about their "actual" rating, and a lot of them don't really care or know about their exact ratings as well. The most recent one I played with some friendly matches was months ago who said he is a new 4.0 NTRP but to be honest, playing with him feels cool but it is not the same as those who have much higher ratings.

Just go to myutr.com and you can see everyone's UTR [assuming these were official matches so they got picked up].

And yea, I do know how a higher rating ball would look like because I have been fortunate to see some of those in real life as an observer, and I understand how much faster, deeper, and spinnier the ball can fly, and how more athletics and accurate they can be.

It's one thing to observe shots; it's yet another to play against them.

 

[Kevo]

I actually think im gonna skip open tourneys till next year.

I kinda think it makes no sense, id barely be able to do anything and just get bageled easily against 5.0 5.5 6.0 players

I'd say take a second look at it. There are people at varied levels playing open tourneys. If they have consolation then you'd at least get two matches out of it, and if you go in with the right attitude it can be wonderful experience. At the very least it might give you a chance to work on your serve and return against really good players. That is very valuable work in my book. It's very hard to understand what you need to deal with on those two most important shots until you actually face them in a match.

 

[Kevo]

Top ~50 Taylor Fritz played ~#250 ranked Enzo Couacaud in the semifinals of the Newport Beach challengers this year. Enzo was hitting topspin groundstrokes down the middle of the court that were bouncing up to shoulder height at the baseline for Taylor who stands 6’4” tall. You don’t expect anyone to be attacking these balls yet Fritz was crushing these for sharp angled winners that landed just past the service line that Enzo had no chance of chasing down with regularity.

Shoulder high in the middle of the court is probably a winner for a good 4.5 player or even a big strong 4.0. My doubles partner when we would practice at 4.0 would fairly routinely hit clean winners off shots like that if I left them hanging for him. That's why I usually would make him run off the first ball I could. If I could keep him moving I could usually win the point in 3-4 shots. If I gave him something high he could hit down on it would usually spell trouble for me.

The exception to a shoulder high ball being a winner or forcing shot is if it's fast enough to make the timing problematic so the shot is awkward, or if you've already been forced back deep enough where you can't hit down on it. By hitting down I mean more a level swing path with an forward angled racquet face. If the ball is high enough and you are close enough to the net, near the baseline or inside, you can absolutely clobber those balls.

I do wonder though, did Enzo continue to hit those shots or did he start changing it up and hitting angles or a little flatter? One of my theories of tennis is that many lower ranked players could easily make top 50 or better if they just learned to be more aware on court and adjust their game play to better match their opponent. In other words they need to learn to coach themselves better.

 

[mad dog1]

Shoulder high in the middle of the court is probably a winner for a good 4.5 player or even a big strong 4.0. My doubles partner when we would practice at 4.0 would fairly routinely hit clean winners off shots like that if I left them hanging for him. That's why I usually would make him run off the first ball I could. If I could keep him moving I could usually win the point in 3-4 shots. If I gave him something high he could hit down on it would usually spell trouble for me.

The exception to a shoulder high ball being a winner or forcing shot is if it's fast enough to make the timing problematic so the shot is awkward, or if you've already been forced back deep enough where you can't hit down on it. By hitting down I mean more a level swing path with an forward angled racquet face. If the ball is high enough and you are close enough to the net, near the baseline or inside, you can absolutely clobber those balls.

I do wonder though, did Enzo continue to hit those shots or did he start changing it up and hitting angles or a little flatter? One of my theories of tennis is that many lower ranked players could easily make top 50 or better if they just learned to be more aware on court and adjust their game play to better match their opponent. In other words they need to learn to coach themselves better.

Uh. No. Not the kind of ball Enzo was hitting. He wasn't hitting some 3.5 puff ball.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Shoulder high in the middle of the court is probably a winner for a good 4.5 player or even a big strong 4.0.

I don't know any 4.0s that routinely hit winners from the BL off of a shoulder-high ball. I don't know many 4.5s that do that either.

BTW: the poster's "middle" was a "left/right" middle, not a "net/BL" middle. If I got a short ball halfway between the net and BL, sure I'd attack it. But I don't think that's what the post was describing.

 

[BetaServe]

I actually think im gonna skip open tourneys till next year.

I kinda think it makes no sense, id barely be able to do anything and just get bageled easily against 5.0 5.5 6.0 players

That sounds like an excuse.
Face your fear. You'll learn a ton.

 

[5263]

But your powerful stroke might be powerful for someone but an easy rally ball for someone else.

which is why I referenced "the expected competition" level....look back and you will see I accounted for that, for if what you say is the situation, then they are NOT your expected competition.

 

[FiReFTW]

At the very least it might give you a chance to work on your serve and return against really good players. That is very valuable work in my book.

Wow thats actually a very good point!

 

[3virgul14]

This is a really important point and sometimes a hard lesson to learn. The ball and the lines do not care what your strokes look like. You have to learn to live in reality and play the game of tennis. The game is played in reality not in the land of hopes and dreams. I was once beat by an older guy, 4.5 player, who hit like three hard shots the whole match I think. He hit maybe 5 topspin shots the whole match as well. Everything else was a slice. He could have beaten me with a wood frame I'm sure. I had some really good high level points and had some great winners during the match. But he was trying to collect points like they were going out of style. People watching the match who didn't know the score might have thought I was the better player. But it didn't matter. He hit great slices over and over and made me move and hit my topspin shots from about 6-8 inches off the ground the whole match.

I would have been better off that day focusing less on my own shots trying to hit great spin and depth, and instead focusing on his shots, and what made his game weaker. I spent too much time trying to get the ball by him. I probably should have hit at him more. He had slice on the run down pat. I needed to not be so stubborn about winning with my game and I needed to attack his game.

Anyway, learning to pay attention to the game being played and not how good your shots are or how good the opponents shots are is a big advance for most players. You have to accept what is and work with that. You have to be thinking at a higher level when you're playing a competitive match.

I also play at a country club and majority of the players are very experienced high 40s mid 50s or low 60s..They have a solid game plan and crafty slices to put the ball close to the lines from anywhere in the court.

I think I am 3 times faster then them, hitting at least couple of times more rpm topspins and i can crush the ball crosscourt or down the line..if,only if, its not a low slice..Since I am not Nadal to brush it enough for a good shot, they get to win the points more. From the fences people congratulate me for playing so good but I actually lose the matches and they are surprised..

In my last game , I was winning 6-2 5-2 against an experienced guy totally dominating the game and he started 2 storey moonballing ( was a windy day) , i got so pissed off after couple of balls hitting the fences after the first bounce. Started to take them early or air volleying but he hit even higher balls and came to 5-5 at the hour mark then we had to stop.

Never got so frustrated before. They know how to win points, not caring about if its enjoyable or not..

 

[FiReFTW]

I also play at a country club and majority of the players are very experienced high 40s mid 50s or low 60s..They have a solid game plan and crafty slices to put the ball close to the lines from anywhere in the court.

I think I am 3 times faster then them, hitting at least couple of times more rpm topspins and i can crush the ball crosscourt or down the line..if,only if, its not a low slice..Since I am not Nadal to brush it enough for a good shot, they get to win the points more. From the fences people congratulate me for playing so good but I actually lose the matches and they are surprised..

In my last game , I was winning 6-2 5-2 against an experienced guy totally dominating the game and he started 2 storey moonballing ( was a windy day) , i got so pissed off after couple of balls hitting the fences after the first bounce. Started to take them early or air volleying but he hit even higher balls and came to 5-5 at the hour mark then we had to stop.

Never got so frustrated before. They know how to win points, not caring about if its enjoyable or not..

When you get more mileage and experience you will easily beat them.

I agree that consistency is key, being consistent and also having good placement so you can build points and work points and outplay your opponent, pull him wide, open up the court, take time away... of course you need consistencly and placement and experience to do this.

Someone who has been playing for 15 or 20 years for him this is automatic, he knows how to play, he knows how the court position and opponent position is and how to open up the court and how to win the point, its automatic for him.

And someone who has 10 times less mileage and experience might have better technique, more pace and more spin, but it doesn't mean anything, its not as consistent yet and he doesn't know how to use the tools in a match, he doesn't have the same understanding for tennis and know how to build a point, how to open the court, how to win points, he might have some good tools like a good forehand or this or that, but its all disconnected and all over the place, it didn't all come together yet.

But in the end, someone with much better technique who can hit much harder with much more spin will beat a person like that when he also gets as much mileage and experience as that guy.

If I swing at 60% effort I can hit small crosscourt targets consistently and easily, but im constantly encouraged by my coach to not swing as passive but to swing FAST, to really swing very FAST with a TON of racquet speed, even if I miss more, because the goal is to get THAT swing speed with much heavier pace and spin to be that consistent with the ability to place it well.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

When you get more mileage and experience you will easily beat them.

I agree that consistency is key, being consistent and also having good placement so you can build points and work points and outplay your opponent, pull him wide, open up the court, take time away... of course you need consistencly and placement and experience to do this.

Someone who has been playing for 15 or 20 years for him this is automatic, he knows how to play, he knows how the court position and opponent position is and how to open up the court and how to win the point, its automatic for him.

And someone who has 10 times less mileage and experience might have better technique, more pace and more spin, but it doesn't mean anything, its not as consistent yet and he doesn't know how to use the tools in a match, he doesn't have the same understanding for tennis and know how to build a point, how to open the court, how to win points, he might have some good tools like a good forehand or this or that, but its all disconnected and all over the place, it didn't all come together yet.

But in the end, someone with much better technique who can hit much harder with much more spin will beat a person like that when he also gets as much mileage and experience as that guy.

If I swing at 60% effort I can hit small crosscourt targets consistently and easily, but im constantly encouraged by my coach to not swing as passive but to swing FAST, to really swing very FAST with a TON of racquet speed, even if I miss more, because the goal is to get THAT swing speed with much heavier pace and spin to be that consistent with the ability to place it well.

And the catch with these experienced players is they have seen it at all. So if you drop shot them, they can see it coming. If you lob them, they can see it coming too. The only thing that works is patience but that's easier said than done. I would get impatient dealing with two storey moonballs too.

 

[FiReFTW]

And the catch with these experienced players is they have seen it at all. So if you drop shot them, they can see it coming. If you lob them, they can see it coming too. The only thing that works is patience but that's easier said than done. I would get impatient dealing with two storey moonballs too.

Yeah their tennis IQ, tennis instincts and tennis reading and reacting is top notch, its almost automatic also, their body reacts naturaly to something because they seen it so many times that they notice the small patterns and already anticipate whats coming before its even struck.

 

[Hmgraphite1]

he started 2 storey moonballing …….. but he hit even higher balls

Just keep practicing against these types of shots, all the practice and consistency you've developed against other shots won't help you against these. When you take it early, also angle it, you can't hit it back to the opponent, hit it short. Take it out of the air and angle it but work against these types of shots (imagine if we had to watch the pros deal with these types of shots for a whole match, would bankrupt the sport)

 

[3virgul14]

Just keep practicing against these types of shots, all the practice and consistency you've developed against other shots won't help you against these. When you take it early, also angle it, you can't hit it back to the opponent, hit it short. Take it out of the air and angle it but work against these types of shots (imagine if we had to watch the pros deal with these types of shots for a whole match, would bankrupt the sport)

Funny but very true..

Before i started playing tennis, I used to watch a lot on tv and live, there were many Wta and some Atp players couldnt deal with these at all and i used to pity them..Now i understand how hard it can be in such conditions. I will definitely work on these drills, also the low backspin slicers give me some trouble on the wrong footers..

About the experience , you are right in fact. I play only for 3 years and 2 of this was against a beginner guy like myself and an experience older lady who had excellent fundementals but no power.. All these 4.0-4.5 seasoned country club players are smart foxes compared to me. I accept that, but due to my pingpong background I didnt know how to play defensive patient game nor I have no intention to adapt

 

[dman72]

Just keep practicing against these types of shots, all the practice and consistency you've developed against other shots won't help you against these. When you take it early, also angle it, you can't hit it back to the opponent, hit it short. Take it out of the air and angle it but work against these types of shots (imagine if we had to watch the pros deal with these types of shots for a whole match, would bankrupt the sport)

I've found the best response to these shots is often a slice overhead after the bounce. A 20 foot moonball can almost always be run around. You get good enough at these and blast a couple to the moonballer or angle them off the court...the moonballs will stop. Of course some moonballs bounce so high that even hitting them as overheads is tough...if a person can hit a 20 footer that lands 2 feet from the baseline consistently on a high bouncing court with a short back curtain or fence, that can be tough.

 

[Hmgraphite1]

Funny but very true..

Before i started playing tennis, I used to watch a lot on tv and live, there were many Wta and some Atp players couldnt deal with these at all and i used to pity them..Now i understand how hard it can be in such conditions. I will definitely work on these drills, also the low backspin slicers give me some trouble on the wrong footers..

About the experience , you are right in fact. I play only for 3 years and 2 of this was against a beginner guy like myself and an experience older lady who had excellent fundementals but no power.. All these 4.0-4.5 seasoned country club players are smart foxes compared to me. I accept that, but due to my pingpong background I didnt know how to play defensive patient game nor I have no intention to adapt

Got to play your game, adapt but if you want/like to play aggressive I say continue to do so.

 

[3virgul14]

Got to play your game, adapt but if you want/like to play aggressive I say continue to do so.

I hope I will keep the faith in that aggressivity. Nothing feels good like a winner

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

All these 4.0-4.5 seasoned country club players are smart foxes compared to me. I accept that, but due to my pingpong background I didnt know how to play defensive patient game

I'm not sure why ping pong would prevent you from knowing how to play a defensive game: I played a lot of ping pong as well and I developed defense just as I did offense.

So I'm assuming that you don't play defensive from an overall strategy standpoint, covering the entire match. But do you know how to play defense [ie during any given point]?

nor I have no intention to adapt

In my experience, being able to adapt is very valuable. Sometimes plan A just isn't working.

 

[3virgul14]

I'm not sure why ping pong would prevent you from knowing how to play a defensive game: I played a lot of ping pong as well and I developed defense just as I did offense.

So I'm assuming that you don't play defensive from an overall strategy standpoint, covering the entire match. But do you know how to play defense [ie during any given point]?



In my experience, being able to adapt is very valuable. Sometimes plan A just isn't working.

I somehow happened to be trained by a communist coach who was raised in SSCB during the iron curtain, and his pingpong philisophy was all attack, from the first ball till the last, he erased all my memory of defensive skills , continous brainwashing for 5 years or so.. Okay I can make couple of defensive shots if I cant swing and dont have the correct position, still I try to gain the point somehow with that shot, I am not able to plan mid-long rallies of 6 to 10 shots or more. Yes, this is a weakness , I agree . Just I dont have the mindset for it, yet.. And maybe at the recreational level it can be an advantage to a certain point? Right?

 

[3virgul14]

And of course, I play long rallies if it comes to there, sometimes I make the winner or get the unforced error at the 20th shot but exchanging cross court balls( trading water ) or shooting meaninglessly in the middle to my opponents forehand does not give me any joy tbh.. So the moonballers and slicers get what they want sometimes

 

[pencilcheck]

And of course, I play long rallies if it comes to there, sometimes I make the winner or get the unforced error at the 20th shot but exchanging cross court balls( trading water ) or shooting meaninglessly in the middle to my opponents forehand does not give me any joy tbh.. So the moonballers and slicers get what they want sometimes

I play ping pong too, the defense mindset is not really the same kind of mindset in tennis, as a simple tap of a racquet in ping pong (and I loved doing slices) can already give you enough speed for a good angle for attack and since it is so fast, a lot of time it is reactionary. While in tennis you need to be mindful of your footwork, and be fully prepared to hit an incoming shot let along a full out attack.

Based on my experience, tennis defense breaks down into 2 parts
1. What to do when you are pulled wide
2. What to do when you are cornered (such as receiving approaching slices, or high bouncing topspin, etc)

And by practicing both parts will make you a better defense player I think.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I somehow happened to be trained by a communist coach who was raised in SSCB during the iron curtain, and his pingpong philisophy was all attack, from the first ball till the last, he erased all my memory of defensive skills , continous brainwashing for 5 years or so.. Okay I can make couple of defensive shots if I cant swing and dont have the correct position, still I try to gain the point somehow with that shot, I am not able to plan mid-long rallies of 6 to 10 shots or more. Yes, this is a weakness , I agree . Just I dont have the mindset for it, yet.. And maybe at the recreational level it can be an advantage to a certain point? Right?

SSCB = ?

Sure, first strike tennis can succeed. It's just that you will eventually run into someone who can handle your attack so having patience and defense is also very handy.

 

[Dragy]

Based on my experience, tennis defense breaks down into 2 parts
1. What to do when you are pulled wide
2. What to do when you are cornered (such as receiving approaching slices, or high bouncing topspin, etc)

What about “can barely get to the ball”?

 

[FiReFTW]

SSCB = ?

Sure, first strike tennis can succeed. It's just that you will eventually run into someone who can handle your attack so having patience and defense is also very handy.

Yes you need to have it all, specially if your a first strike player.

Federer is a first strike tennis type of player but there are days where his shots are off or the opponent is playing great defence and he can't really play it effectively and makes too much errors, and then he starts playing defensive almost pushy type of game, and sometimes grinds out wins like that.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Yes you need to have it all, specially if your a first strike player.

Federer is a first strike tennis type of player but there are days where his shots are off or the opponent is playing great defence and he can't really play it effectively and makes too much errors, and then he starts playing defensive almost pushy type of game, and sometimes grinds out wins like that.

That's how he beat Coric in the SF of the BNP last year: he was down a set and a break when he decided that his normal game wasn't working and he made a conscious switch to just keeping it in and hitting into the middle of the court. Coric could not close out the match, Federer regained his stride, and ended up winning the match.

 

[3virgul14]

SSCB = ?

Sure, first strike tennis can succeed. It's just that you will eventually run into someone who can handle your attack so having patience and defense is also very handy.

Soviet Union, I meant. Sorry for the typo..

 

[Hmgraphite1]

maybe at the recreational level it can be an advantage to a certain point? Right?

I think it's helped me in the long run, but has been a detriment short term as far as winning goes. When you had a whole lot of experience playing aggressively, you don't ever really get tight you just go out there and do what you do, and try it again and again

 

[IowaGuy]

And of course, I play long rallies if it comes to there, sometimes I make the winner or get the unforced error at the 20th shot but exchanging cross court balls( trading water ) or shooting meaninglessly in the middle to my opponents forehand does not give me any joy tbh.. So the moonballers and slicers get what they want sometimes

Against a good server, you are on defense on almost every point they get a 1st serve in...

So, having good defense in tennis is a very important skill in being able to break a good server...

 

[IowaGuy]

Even Fed plays defense often.

Watch his matches against big-serving Anderson and Isner at Miami 2019.

He just blocks back their 1st serves to start the point as close to neutral (slightly defensive) as possible...

 

[ByeByePoly]

Against a good server, you are on defense on almost every point they get a 1st serve in...

So, having good defense in tennis is a very important skill in being able to break a good server...

Djokovic, Nadal, Murray three of the best defensive players in history ... and Fed at the top also. Based on their rankings ... I would say defense is alive and well on the ATP tour. WTA is less obvious to me, because Halep, Sloan, Kerber yes .... Keys, Kvitova, Pliskova ... not so much. Of course I am thinking defense movement ... also the element of defensive strokes ... block ros, abbreviated swings, giving ball some air so you can get back, going for broke when last option.

I keep asking ... is a passing shot offense or defense?

 

[Hmgraphite1]

I meant be aggressive on neutral balls as opposed to waiting for opponent to dictate the play. Agree with above on blocking tough serves and learning defensive skills but neutral rallies some players may show more aggressive tactics to get the opponent moving before they get you moving.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I meant be aggressive on neutral balls as opposed to waiting for opponent to dictate the play. Agree with above on blocking tough serves and learning defensive skills but neutral rallies some players may show more aggressive tactics to get the opponent moving before they get you moving.

Interestingly, having the skill to hit aggressive ros creates need to make decisions. I knew in singles I was hitting low 1hbh block/slice 100% of the time. On fh ... would vary between aggressive and safer depending on opponent. If fast baseliner, usually not much percentage in going for much. If good s&v player that is hard to break, then percentages swing in favor of more aggressive.

 

[user92626]

Wow, the last several pages have been pure TALK TENNIS literally!!! haha. Who needs to play when they can talk this good. You guys are all professional players, tacticians and coaches in words. I feel so privileged to be here.

 

[3loudboys]

My point is everybody can be consistent. Like footwork it’s something that every can achieve to do better. So yeah “just” be consistent. Not everybody can have 100 MPH serve or a big forehand. But on this forum so many people are obsessed with acquiring such a skill. Like the poster who wants a 6.0 serve who is a 3.5 player. Like the poster who wants a 120 MPH serve. Totally unrealistic. But I make a general comment about being more consistent will win you more matches you guys think I’m crazy.

Not everyone has the patience, discipline and physical endurance to be consistent. For me consistency is all about control and repetition of stroke mechanic - not easy abilities to maintain when playing a skilled shot maker. It’s a game style that most players do not like playing against as it becomes a mental and physical battle. Win the mental battle and your more than half way there.

Also consistency does not just mean that players hit down the middle of court so the opponent can take large cuts at the ball. Good depth to targets moving a player around is almost always as good as hitting Hollywood winners and more often than not creates openings via a short return. There is more skill and variation to a consistent player than they are given credit for.



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[FiReFTW]

Even Fed plays defense often.

Watch his matches against big-serving Anderson and Isner at Miami 2019.

He just blocks back their 1st serves to start the point as close to neutral (slightly defensive) as possible...

Sometimes he even plays from the baseline extremely defensive and pushy, he plays first strike tennis which is high risk high reward, and when he has a zoning day hes hitting lines and hitting winners left and right, but on some days when hes not feeling it and his shots are off and making too many UE he has the ability to adopt and play with more margin and a more grinding defensive game aswell, its important to have the ability to play both so you can adapt depending on many circumstances.

 

[3virgul14]

Sometimes he even plays from the baseline extremely defensive and pushy, he plays first strike tennis which is high risk high reward, and when he has a zoning day hes hitting lines and hitting winners left and right, but on some days when hes not feeling it and his shots are off and making too many UE he has the ability to adopt and play with more margin and a more grinding defensive game aswell, its important to have the ability to play both so you can adapt depending on many circumstances.

You guys realize you talk about a guy who is on top of the tennis world for 2 decades almost.

We recreational human beings who are playing for joy and small achievements should not take it so seriously to go in deep adaptation to every different day and game..Personally if I dont enjoy the game I am playing I dont see any reason to push till the end just to record a W on my stats sheet.

 

[rogerroger917]

You guys realize you talk about a guy who is on top of the tennis world for 2 decades almost.

We recreational human beings who are playing for joy and small achievements should not take it so seriously to go in deep adaptation to every different day and game..Personally if I dont enjoy the game I am playing I dont see any reason to push till the end just to record a W on my stats sheet.

Truth

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[IowaGuy]

We recreational human beings who are playing for joy and small achievements should not take it so seriously to go in deep adaptation to every different day and game.

It seems to me you probably haven't played many tournaments or league matches, if you don't think about adapting to different opponents...

Do you play the same against S&V, the same way you do against a pusher, the same way you do against an agressive baseliner, the same way you do against a big server, etc. ?

 

[FiReFTW]

It seems to me you probably haven't played many tournaments or league matches, if you don't think about adapting to different opponents...

Do you play the same against S&V, the same way you do against a pusher, the same way you do against an agressive baseliner, the same way you do against a big server, etc. ?

Thats one of the things that makes tennis so fun for me, trying to figure out opponents and problem solving, almost like chess, and then using your creativity and tools to solve problems on court.

 

[3virgul14]

It seems to me you probably haven't played many tournaments or league matches, if you don't think about adapting to different opponents...

Do you play the same against S&V, the same way you do against a pusher, the same way you do against an agressive baseliner, the same way you do against a big server, etc. ?

Absolutely, that is pretty much the case. I`ve only 3 years of playtime and only last 1 year is league and tournament matches where I am about 30w-9l.. I played about 25 different opponents in this period..

I am mostly a baseliner, if I have an aggressive opponent for me its an advantage since I can pass almost anyone at the net by lobs or deep passing shots, and return all kind of pacey hits with topspin.. The problem starts with crafty slicers dicers and moonballers for me. Killing the pace kills my joy , or I cant handle it lets say..

 

[3loudboys]

Thats one of the things that makes tennis so fun for me, trying to figure out opponents and problem solving, almost like chess, and then using your creativity and tools to solve problems on court.

Spot on


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[travlerajm]

I think this discussion continues to be skewed by wood-era perceptions which are still deeply embedded in the tennis world, especially among oldies. Consistency was measured by being able to catch the ball in the small sweetspot of a heavy low-powered frame and guide it in the desired direction with a flattish shot.

Today, flattish shots may still work with oldies, but when I play with juniors as requested by their parents, it is impossible to handle their topspin that way.

What I am getting at is that in the modern game, consistency is not achieved by simple linear shots hit with great control and precision, but by a full swing incorporating topspin. It is basically the same motion as an inconsistent shot, but with less depth and more spin for safety. The whole notion of being consistent has acquired a new meaning.

Nah. You are overvaluing topspin and undervaluing simple linear shots hit with great control and precision.

 

[Kevo]

I don't know any 4.0s that routinely hit winners from the BL off of a shoulder-high ball. I don't know many 4.5s that do that either.

BTW: the poster's "middle" was a "left/right" middle, not a "net/BL" middle. If I got a short ball halfway between the net and BL, sure I'd attack it. But I don't think that's what the post was describing.

Yes, I was thinking middle as in left right, and the ball roughly shoulder high at the baseline, but not a forcing shot. Something that is hanging up to be hit. If you're hitting a forcing ball that is pushing someone from the baseline that's a different story. But I've seen lots of guys put away those hanging topspin shots that sit up at shoulder height near the baseline. They're great for hitting angles off of.