Contenders for the GOAT of tennis.

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Aykhan Mammadov, Jun 27, 2006.

  1. Aykhan Mammadov

    Aykhan Mammadov Hall of Fame

    Mar 12, 2004
    Baku, Azerbaijan
    After many arguments, discussions about who and why I came to the conclusion that not a number of GS determine the GOAT despite it certainly influences, otherwise old argument 14 of Sampras but without RG or say 8 of Agassi but with all 4 "what is better ?" rises, and etc..

    It could seem to me that 6 victories on clay - slowest surface among which 4 times done consequitively, and 5 times in absolutely contrary surface at W - among which all 5 done conseqitively is something phenomenal. This is GREAT Bjorn Borg with his 11 GS.

    Also it seems to me that making 2 times Grand Slam by Rod Laver is also something fantastic.

    But the question how to compare really was appearing in my mind again and again.

    I came to the very simple mathematical decision. Among all players ( u argue or not - doesn't make a weather) W is considered the main dream ( just ask Fed or Agassi), then RG, then USO, then AO.

    So if u give:

    W - 4 points
    RG - 3 points
    USO -2 points
    AO - 1 point
    and extra 10 points every time u make Grand Slam (= winning all 4 in the same year; is given 10 because I consider it is fair to multiply points of a player to 2 if he win all 4 slams, and their sum is 10):
    and give a player 10 points once if he did all 4 in his career.

    then u can give some common ranking to players:

    Borg = 5x4+6x3 = 38
    Rod Laver = 10+10+10+10 = 40
    Sampras = 7x4 + 5x2 +2x1 = 40
    Agassi - 1x4+1x3 + 2x2 + 4x1 + 10 = 25
    Federer at the moment - 3x4 + 2x2 + 2x1 = 18
    Don Budge = 10 + 10 = 20
    McEnroe = 3x4 + 4x2 = 20
    Lendl = 3x3 + 3x2 + 2x1 = 17
    Jimmy Connors = 2x4 + 5x2 + 1x1 = 19

    U can see Greatest players by today were Laver, Sampras and Borg.

    Federer did win Sampras in 2001, so I think Laver and especially Borg with his 5 consequitive !!! victories at W and 6 victories at RG ( 4 consequitive !!!) probably must be most respected players of all times.
  2. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Oct 1, 2005
    Why not take into account:

    no. of singles titles
    no. of doubles titles
    no. of mixed doubles titles
    davis cup record
    overall win/loss ratio (chrissie has the highest of 0.9 I think)
    losses to eventual winner of tournament
    number of years played
  3. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

    Dec 27, 2005
    You know this is the general opinion of most fans/writers/players. You don't need a formula to confirm what we all know.

    Well, why don't you work all that out for us?
  4. Aykhan Mammadov

    Aykhan Mammadov Hall of Fame

    Mar 12, 2004
    Baku, Azerbaijan
    Doubles' results can't be taken into account because they reffer to a pair, not to a person.

    Other single titles are not taken into account because their draws ( 32, 64) are less than at GS ( 128) and Slams are most complete and fair scale for palyers' ability determination. In other words their grade is lower.

    Yr question is similar to the following : "Why not to take into account all previous matches of the team in determining World Champion in football ". Answer: " Because World champion is being determined at World Championship, and previous matches of all teams played in their yards as well as all other are not taken into account"

    Why to take into account results of a player in tounaments with lower grade such as Masters, International, Satellites, Davis Cup, in their own yard with neighbours. Count only players who won Slam, if they could win they had to win Slam.
  5. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Oct 1, 2005
    Laver comes out to be 49:

    AO: 3
    FO: 2
    W: 4
    USO: 2

    Australian Open W ('60, '62, '69)
    French Open W ('62, '69)
    Wimbledon W ('61, '62, '68, '69)
    US Open W ('62, '69)

    3*1 + 2*3 + 4*4 + 2*2 = 29

    29 + 10 + 10 (2 calendar slams, and nothing extra for career slam bcos it is included in calendar slam) = 49
  6. Aykhan Mammadov

    Aykhan Mammadov Hall of Fame

    Mar 12, 2004
    Baku, Azerbaijan
    It is strange that NOT. I personally don't rely on my own formula and count Federer as a greatets ever, and Santoro with poor points. meanwile some count Lendl, Agassi, McEnroe and etc..

    In the method of counting I gave there is a little trick. One can ask why points u give to slams are those above, but not different. Say why not to give to W = 7 and to RG = 5 ? In short, if u change those numbers u can obtain different results.
  7. Rickson

    Rickson G.O.A.T.

    Jun 16, 2004
    It's too early to see if Federer becomes the goat so atm, we have to accept Pete Sampras as the goat.
  8. chaognosis

    chaognosis Semi-Pro

    Nov 6, 2005
    Today perhaps, but in earlier times the major championships were not necessarily the barometer of greatness they are today. Certainly it was a remarkable feat for Don Budge and Rod Laver to win the amateur-era Grand Slam in 1938 and '62, respectively, but in neither case did they face the best players in the world en route to their successes (in Budge's day, both Ellsworth Vines and Fred Perry were off dueling on the Pro tour, while Laver's Grand Slam run lacked competition from such greats as Gonzalez, Rosewall, and Hoad). I do not think therefore, that it makes any sense whatsoever to rank players from different generations according to a strict formula like yours. I use a much looser approach, an attempt to compare the different data that is available to us and evaluate a player's completeness, universality, and longevity. These seem to me to be the three most important characteristics of a great player; therefore the GREATEST player must possess all three qualities in spades. Only two players, Bill Tilden and Laver, fit the bill.
  9. AAAA

    AAAA Hall of Fame

    Feb 20, 2004
    Using your points system a player with 4 Wimbledon titles(16 points) has more points than a player with 2 wimbys and 2 French (14 points).
  10. oscar_2424

    oscar_2424 Legend

    Sep 5, 2005
    Hallandale, Florida
    Bjorn Borg is the goat, end of the discussion
  11. superman1

    superman1 Legend

    Jan 9, 2006
    There's too much to take into account. You just go by your gut.

    For example, Agassi didn't play the Australian Open until 1995 and he won it on his first try, beating Sampras in the final. He also had that whole Brooke Shields fiasco that took him out of contention. He'd probably have over 10 Slams by now if it weren't for all of that.

    Then again, a lot of players in the 70's and 80's skipped the Australian. So they'd have a lot more Slams. You can't just look at # of Slams. It's a combination of accomplishments, talent and competition.

    There are too many variables to count. I just go: Sampras, Laver, Borg, Agassi, Federer.
  12. newnuse

    newnuse Professional

    Apr 3, 2005
    I agree your ranking of Wimbledon as the #1 grand slam. I imagine most people would put the US Open over the French Open though. Maybe it's because I live in the USA, but US Open was always above the FO from what I saw.
  13. MTChong

    MTChong Professional

    Jun 21, 2005
    Thanks for wasting time then; you already said why such an idea wouldn't work, and it clearly doesn't. Awarding only one point for a given slam while four for another? Completely illogical - case closed, I'd say.
  14. HollerOne5

    HollerOne5 Semi-Pro

    May 9, 2006
    This is the dumbest thread I've ever seen. All grand slams are grand slams for a reason. They all take 7 matches to win, and they are all conducted in the same way. They are all valued equally on the ATP ranking system, therefore, they are all equal. The GOAT will never be decided, end of discussion. There is always going to be a difference of opinion between what people value more (slam titles versus competition versus surfaces, etc etc). Just give it a rest already.
  15. simi

    simi Hall of Fame

    Feb 23, 2004
    Aykhan, private e-mail sent to you.
  16. HyperHorse

    HyperHorse Banned

    May 30, 2006
    Sydney, Australia
    Hasnt this been discussed already, and to death???
    it's pretty obvious who the GOAT is atm...
    without getting into a totally stupid debate....

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