Contribution of leg drive in racket head speed on serve

[Limpinhitter]

Asian Journal of Exercise & Sports Science 2012 Vol. 9 (No. 1)

Suggest reading the introductions and conclusions of scientific publications at first. Acronyms are always defined when first used.

Lower Limb and Trunk Function in the High Performance Tennis Serve
Matthew Sweeney
The University of Western Australia
Australian Catholic University, Brisbane
Machar Reid
The University of Western Australia
Tennis Australia
Bruce Elliott
The University of Western Australia

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...nnis_Serve/links/0046352a5546d2641a000000.pdf

I believe it illustrates the kind of research that is necessary to measure and understand - to some degree - the effect of various parts of the service motion such as leg drive. The references underlined in blue have links to the references.

I have not studied this publication yet.

I haven't looked at your link yet. But, in my opinion, if you focus on and execute good upper body rotation, which requires assistance from the legs, your legs will automatically do what is necessary to achieve UBR without having to purposely manufacture leg drive.

PS: I don't have time to read the whole thing now, but, I think the study you linked to supports my premise - the correct role of the legs is to promote upper body rotation, not to directly increase RHS. The photos in the article show a player with what I would characterize as full upper body rotation.

Abstract
The kinematic interrelationships between the lower limbs, pelvis,
trunk, and racquet in the performance of the high velocity tennis serve were
investigated for 10 participants using a 12 camera opto-reective Vicon MX
system, operating at 250Hz. e average absolute peak racquet centre velocity
was 34.0m∙s-1, which is comparable to previous studies using high performance
players. Peak vertical linear velocity of the right shoulder was highly correlated
with this maximum pre-impact racquet resultant velocity (MRV: r = 0.808, p <
.001), yet horizontal velocity of the same shoulder shared no relationship with
MRV. e vertical drive of the hitting shoulder was strongly associated with drive
from both trunk and lower limbs, in particular on the hitting side. The results
highlighted the importance of creating a large upward drive of the hitting shoulder
in the high performance tennis serve with contributions from both the trunk and
the lower limbs playing key roles.

* * *

Conclusion
The results of this study highlight the importance of several lower limb and trunk
variables to successful high velocity serve performance, which are practically signifcant
to coaches. Specifcally, a greater upward vertical drive of the right shoulder during the
forward swing is associated with a higher peak racquet velocity. In creating this vertical
drive to the hitting shoulder, drive from the lower limbs as well as the trunk have important
roles to play. Coaches and sport scientists working in athlete development must emphasise
the role of the back leg drive and its contribution to vertical shoulder velocity in the tennis
serve. This may lead to the creation of the critical “shoulder-over-shoulder” trunk rotation,
a key characteristic of the high performance serve.

 

[Ash_Smith]

^^^ So looking at sprinters who have undergone biomechanical gait analysis and then looking at improvements in their times before and after wouldn't tell us anything? Nor would anecdotal evidence from players at a rugby club who had former international sprinter turned coach Marlon Devonish come in to do a sprint mechanics analysis session with the backs and then worked with them to improve the efficiency of their running actions, resulting in the majority of them improving their 10m, 30m and 100m times (not to mention improving their injury resilience).

Which concept do think is being treated as a fact that you disagree with? What is "just an idea" - Biomechanics?

 

[Ash_Smith]

The term bio-mechanical applies as much to walking as it does to a tennis serve. People can't improve their ability to walk by trying to understand the bio-mechanics of walking.

Also worth noting that athletes using wheelchairs - racers, tennis players, basketballers, rugby players etc can and have benefitted from analysis of the biomechanics of pushing and chair propulsion and implementing changes based on said analysis - Loughborough University has published numerous studies on the subject.

 

[Noveson]

Biomechanics is not the same thing as the kinetic chain.

No, the kinetic chain. It is a fact that if you simply do a google search you will find that sprinkle throughout virtually every article on the subject are words like theory, concept and idea.

....You serious? Kinetic chain is just a term used to illustrate how our joints all effect eachother during movement. Biomechanics clearly demonstrates that as fact. It's easily demonstrable among EVERY sport that maximum power/efficiency only comes through the use of the whole body.

 

[RajS]

In a ground stroke, if you use the legs and hips to generate power, the arm can be more relaxed. If you arm the ball, the arm will do more work and be less relaxed and the hit won't be as good. Would not the same principle apply to serves? It would follow then that it is preferable to use more legs and hips to create power since relaxed arms are more conducive to generating power and spin. I am still working on my serve, trying to force my reluctant legs and body to contribute more power... what was easy as late as 10 yrs ago now has become much harder!

 

[PittsburghDad]

Thats some next level trolling right there. And he got some serious replies off of it. I mean you're arguing with a guy who said that the reason high level serves get off the ground is because they jump to get a better angle on the serve. Awesome. And hilarious.

 

[Noveson]

Thats some next level trolling right there. And he got some serious replies off of it. I mean you're arguing with a guy who said that the reason high level serves get off the ground is because they jump to get a better angle on the serve. Awesome. And hilarious.

I'm pretty certain he is serious though.

 

[PittsburghDad]

I'm pretty certain he is serious though.

Then its even funnier. He cant be....can he?

 

[PittsburghDad]

I'm not interested in trolling anyone about anything. I'm completely serious in my responses. I haven't insulted anyone as you just insulted me. If you believe you jump on the serve for any other reason than to make contact as high as possible, that's your prerogative. I actually enjoy reading the alternative explanations for why we jump.They are quite absurd.

You got it brother. (Theres no WAY youre not trolling with 'jump up on the serve to get a better angle'. Great job.)

 

[Noveson]

Yeah I serious! No, It really isn't just a term used to illustrate how our joints all effect "eachother" during movement.

Even a healthLine, which is probably the biggest health/medical website on the internet calls it a Notion. Do you know what I notion is?

Google the term kinetic chain and this is the first thing that comes up.

kinetic chain is the Notion (idea, concept, theory, thought) these joints and segments have an effect on one another during movement — when one is in motion, it creates a chain of events that affects the movement of neighboring joints and .....

www.healthline.com/health/4-kinetic-chain-exercises.

NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT. The whole term is an easy way to illustrate a concept derived from biomechanics. It's literally just a way to look at something that biomechanics already tells us. I don't know how else to explain this. Biomechanics is the science, kinetic chain is a term that helps visualize what biomechanic research has told us. And apparently you disagree with the whole goddamn science

Do I need to link paper after paper to show you? Or what

 

[Noveson]

Yeah I serious! No, It really isn't just a term used to illustrate how our joints all effect "eachother" during movement.

Even a healthLine, which is probably the biggest health/medical website on the internet calls it a Notion. Do you know what I notion is?

Google the term kinetic chain and this is the first thing that comes up.

kinetic chain is the Notion (idea, concept, theory, thought) these joints and segments have an effect on one another during movement — when one is in motion, it creates a chain of events that affects the movement of neighboring joints and .....

www.healthline.com/health/4-kinetic-chain-exercises.

Here's an excerpt for a paper literally titled "biomechanics of the tennis serve".

Over a quarter century ago, the kinetic chain was first studied in nationally ranked tennis players.25 Players increase the maximum linear velocity from the knee to the racquet.25The preparation phase (stages 1-4) results in the storing of potential energy that can be utilized as kinetic energy during the acceleration phase. In an efficiently functioning kinetic chain, the legs and trunk segments are the engine for the development of force and the stable proximal base for distal mobility.26,37,58 This link develops 51% to 55% of the kinetic energy and force delivered to the hand.37 This link also creates the back-leg-to-front-leg angular momentum to drive the arm up and forward.33,55 The large cross-sectional area of the legs and trunk, with its large mass and high moment of inertia, creates an anchor that allows for centripetal motion to occur.10,58 An analysis of the kinetic chain using mathematical modeling revealed that a 20% reduction in kinetic energy from the trunk requires a 34% increase in velocity or a 70% increase in mass to achieve the same kinetic energy to the hand.37 These data highlight the importance of developing effective lower body force and efficient energy transfer up through the kinetic chain.

 

[Noveson]

I've already made it very clear what the issue is and it's not biomechanic. You apparently don't understand what I said.

The issue is you literally don't think legs are important to generating velocity, which is just plain wrong. You deflect by latching onto the term "kinetic chain", when you obviously still don't understand the implications of it, or of biomechanics in generating power at all.

 

[PittsburghDad]

There is no such thing as leg or hip drive. The reason you jump to the ball is to make contact as high as you can, not to add MPH to your serve. You're serve will be slightly harder when you jump but it's not due to "leg or hip drive" it's due to making higher contact which increases the angle of your serve. In essence you are able to hit it harder because of the angle not because of the legs. This is why taller people can hit harder. They don't have better "leg drive" they have a better angle.

Yes I am aware that there are hundreds of tennis gurus on youtube who will tell you differently.

How much do you charge an hour? This is really GREAT advice.

 

[PittsburghDad]

See, this is your way of brushing off the issue so you don't have to be specific. Why on earth do you believe that players are taught to make contact as high as possible? Don't ignore the question or try to offer a witty retort ( you're not very witty) just provide the reason why we jump to make contact as high as possible? What would be the reason for that?

You don't want specifics. People on here allready tried to help you out. You were given 12%. Thats pretty specific. And in my on court experience pretty much ballpark accurate. And to be specific you have so little understanding, anything I tried to offer you would be lost. Youre still talking "jump" on the serve. Thats not at all what it happens. Thats why I think youre probably trolling. How in the world can somebody spend enough time on a court that they inhabit tennis MB's and so clearly not understand. Its cute though. (For the record, I still very much think youre trolling. You cant possibly be this wrong, this definitely sure of your wrongness.)

 

[PittsburghDad]

Yes, it's so simple that you would think people would get it by now. The reason you jump up is to contact the ball high. The reason you jump forward is to reach your toss. Does it add pace? well yes, maybe 10% according to video examples on line..

...but the point is, you are never going to serve without using your legs so the theory seems to be that you can somehow use your legs differently in order to get more power. This make no sense whatsoever. You can use your legs to jump higher and get a better angle on the ball which will result in more pace but the extra pace is not coming from your legs it's coming from the racket hitting the ball at a higher point creating a better angle.

Awesome stuff. Based on this post and my experiences seeing many coaches around.......I'm guessing $60 an hour

 

[PittsburghDad]

I believe in studies by Rod Cross and Miguel Crespo for the ITF they concluded that leg drive contributes about 12% of total force (not sure if this includes its contribution in the stretch-shorten cycle of other muscles).

Here you go Sinnet Sparky. Are you delusional?

 

[PittsburghDad]

So you come out completely clueless, get really solid specifics from very respected and helpful coaches, stick to your "Jump on the serve" and then take thier info as yours? I changed my mind. You definitely go at least $75 an hour.

 

[PittsburghDad]

All of this and you still did not offer a reply to the only question I begged you to answer.. Very telling.

I agree, keep jumping on your serve.

 

[Limpinhitter]

There is no such thing as leg or hip drive. The reason you jump to the ball is to make contact as high as you can, not to add MPH to your serve. You're serve will be slightly harder when you jump but it's not due to "leg or hip drive" it's due to making higher contact which increases the angle of your serve. In essence you are able to hit it harder because of the angle not because of the legs. This is why taller people can hit harder. They don't have better "leg drive" they have a better angle.

Yes I am aware that there are hundreds of tennis gurus on youtube who will tell you differently.

donnybrook? Is that you?

 

[PittsburghDad]

Sorry, I stopped at "Jump up on your serve to get a better angle." I was laughing too hard to read anything else.

 

[Noveson]

When a study starts off with an incorrect proposition that forms the basis of an argument I tend to ignore anything further.

Oh lord, I've been convinced we have been trolled. For anyone curious, here's a couple studies linking research showing the role of your legs in producing velocity on your serve.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445225/
http://tennisbiomechanics.blogspot.com/

 

[Limpinhitter]

Sorry, I stopped at "Jump up on your serve to get a better angle." I was laughing too hard to read anything else.

I'm bringing a stepladder to my next match. Guaranteed to at least get me into a tiebreaker every set.

 

[PittsburghDad]

BTW, its clear from your posts what instructional website you're reading. And its a REALLY good one. Honestly. The problem is you're not getting what he's saying regarding your leg action. You're severely misinterpreting.

 

[PittsburghDad]

I so want to see a vid of your jump serve. I do. I'm ashamed of it but I do.

 

[PittsburghDad]

You're awesome. "Challenge issued." I love it.

 

[PittsburghDad]

I agree. You are "jumping to get a better angle on your serve." You definitely win. No argument here.

 

[PittsburghDad]

After a couple of months doing my serve deconstruction, I've decided I need to start adding leg drive to my serve. I've been serving with just a small knee bend and about the only contribution of legs on my serve is the straightening of my legs when driving racket up to contact. I've been serving and practicing this way as a means to isolate my upper body serve motions while I was relearning my serve.

I went and hit some serves with rudimentary leg loading and it is very awkward for me at the moment. I'm finding that I have a very pronounced waiters serve when I try to incorporate a "jump" into my serve. Without the "jump", I have minimized the waiters serve and am quite happy with my service motions. But I know to move to the next level, I will have to jump or use my leg drive to increase racket head speed and overall power.

So my question is how much more power will jumping into the serve contribute to my serve? Is the gain justifiable to try to add a jump component?

If it matters my level is -3.0 in local Atlanta ultimate tennis. According to my Play PureDrive, my average serve is 69 mph and hi is 77 mph.

Sorry. I tangented your thread pretty hard having fun with Jumpy McJump Serve over there. I owe you a 1/2 way decent response.

Honestly, if youre talking 3.0 and 70 MPH serve I would spend very very little time on worrying about legs. Just a nice comfortable bend, let your move up with your legs drive your racket drop deeper and get it smooth. Hit about 10,000. Youll have a nice serve. And as you get more comfortable and you start maxing out your upper body power, you'll insinctively start pushing harder with your legs. Most people end up off the ground on their serves without ever consciously realizing it. Thats when you know you did it right.

 

[Digital Atheist]

donnybrook? Is that you?

Same ringtone.

 

[Chingoo1255]

Honestly, if youre talking 3.0 and 70 MPH serve I would spend very very little time on worrying about legs. Just a nice comfortable bend, let your move up with your legs drive your racket drop deeper and get it smooth. Hit about 10,000. Youll have a nice serve. And as you get more comfortable and you start maxing out your upper body power, you'll insinctively start pushing harder with your legs. Most people end up off the ground on their serves without ever consciously realizing it. Thats when you know you did it right.

With all this academic debate from my choice of the word "jump" my head is spinning now. 3.0 serve in with 5.0 debate, I'm not even sure how to take this since I've seen plenty of women with total waiters tray serve pound the ball as hard and much harder than I can.

But regardless, I'm committed to a deeper bend and progressively increasing the level of leg drive. Now if I can only get rid of my waiters tray when I do this new serve. It's not as pronounced when I don't try to actively use much leg drive. But as soon as I purposely bend and push off, I have caught myself with an exaggerated waiters tray.

I also need to time the racket drop better ala Rick Macci's serve speech. But that's for another post........

 

[PittsburghDad]

With all this academic debate from my choice of the word "jump" my head is spinning now. 3.0 serve in with 5.0 debate, I'm not even sure how to take this since I've seen plenty of women with total waiters tray serve pound the ball as hard and much harder than I can.

But regardless, I'm committed to a deeper bend and progressively increasing the level of leg drive. Now if I can only get rid of my waiters tray when I do this new serve. It's not as pronounced when I don't try to actively use much leg drive. But as soon as I purposely bend and push off, I have caught myself with an exaggerated waiters tray.

I also need to time the racket drop better ala Rick Macci's serve speech. But that's for another post........

If you stay in a continental grip and keep a loose wrist through drop to followthrough, its pretty hard to waiters tray really. Its that motion of bringing the racket up on edge and then letting the racket move through your strike zone. Thats one reason to not worry too much about your legs until that serving motion is SO ingrained that adding anything major, (in this case leg action), doesnt cause the rest to short circuit. Good luck!

 

[JohnYandell]

Gino,
Great to hear!

 

[JohnYandell]

Sinnet,

I suggest you actually watch Pancho serve. He had very significant knee bend. In his era, it was required to keep one foot on the ground and not step over the baseline til after contact.
Yet with that restriction Pancho still managed to bend his knees around 30 degrees. He had one of the greatest serves of all time without "jumping" to raise his contact height. But he did bend his knees to start the chain and create fantastic external shoulder rotation.

 

[Limpinhitter]

I would call Pancho's knee bend moderate by today's standards. But, his leg drive looked like an efficient and powerful movement.

 

[JohnYandell]

Yeah imagine what he could have done if he could have launched. Great images Limper!

 

[Ash_Smith]

Biomechanics is not the same thing as the kinetic chain.

I was referring to your post which stated "The term bio-mechanical applies as much to walking as it does to a tennis serve. People can't improve their ability to walk by trying to understand the bio-mechanics of walking."

I have shown you that in the instances of race walking, running, sprinting and wheelchair propulsion that understanding the biomechanics of the relative motions can absolutely improve ones locomotion. When a person with a lower limb impairment is learning how to walk with a prosthesis they are taught how to mechanically move said prosthesis using whatever muscles they can still activate to ensure as smooth and consistent a gait as possible (foot strike etc) - the study of the biomechanics of lower limb movement (walking) have massively helped increase the speed at which people with limb loss can become mobile again.

 

[Ash_Smith]

donnybrook? Is that you?

Thank you, for the love of god I couldn't remember that guys name - as soon as I saw sinnets post talking about "fundamentals" I thought maybe it was that guy - hence my post in the other thread!

 

[Digital Atheist]

Both also hold/held the exact same view on the kinetic chain; specifically this.

 

[Digital Atheist]

I'm not even sure how to take this since I've seen plenty of women with total waiters tray serve pound the ball as hard and much harder than I can.

I think @PittsburghDad is right; concentrate on getting the motion down without adding additional leg drive. You can add a better knee bend/leg drive later once the tray is gone for good!

But if you can't hit as hard as a good woman's waiter's tray then maybe something else is wrong, and extra leg drive isn't going to fix that problem. What's your racquet head speed like? No video means pure guesswork, but this might help:

You need to be able to get the kind of pop he is getting (using the more advanced method at about 6:20 onward) before you worry about legs.

 

[Fxanimator1]

See, this is your way of brushing off the issue so you don't have to be specific. Why on earth do you believe that players are taught to make contact as high as possible? Don't ignore the question or try to offer a witty retort ( you're not very witty) just provide the reason why we jump to make contact as high as possible? What would be the reason for that?

Because pushing against the ground more, loads more energy onto your core and hitting shoulder, resulting in a more explosive racquet motion going into the ball.
A side effect of that action is that it "appears" that you've jumped, just for the sake of jumping, but in reality there's no reasonable way to stop your momentum other than to just let your body go in the direction you've started. Look up GRF.

 

[Tennisanity]

Oh, what happened to that loser donnybrook? He's banned? Or just ran out of students/suckers to pay for his ISP?

 

[Fxanimator1]

Oh, what happened to that loser donnybrook? He's banned? Or just ran out of students/suckers to pay for his IPS?

Supposedly he asked TTW admin to close his account.

 

[RetroSpin]

, elite servers have greater vertical and horizontal force production and earlier activation of the major lower body muscle.32"

I think the latter part of this is key. "Earlier activation" of lower body muscles. If you watch videos of pro serves, they use leg drive to initiate the racquet drop out of trophy. Their knees are fully extended as the racquet reaches full drop.

The average rec player thinks of it differently. Even some WTA pros have the concept wrong. These players think leg push is used to help shotput the racquet up to the ball. Hence they fire their legs later than elite servers.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

There is plenty of debate about the stretch-shorten "theory" but I don't see the relevance either way.
The legs do what legs do. It's been established that you can serve with 90% pace when taking the legs and most of the lower body out of the equation. One of the best servers in history,pancho gonzales, did'nt use his legs at all.

Sure, you can possibly serve at close to 90% of top RHS w/o engaging the legs. However, when using the legs, it is possible that they are providing much more than the added 10%. More important, as I indicated previously, they off-load some the power generation from the shoulder or other body parts.

Your statement that Pancho G "didn't use his legs at all" is just plain crazy talk. When he learned/developed his superior serve mechanics, he was not allowed to leave the ground with both feet. However, he still employed a pretty decent amount of leg drive. Not that leg drive for a tennis serve is both in a forward and an upward direction -- even if you don't actually jump.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Oh, what happened to that loser donnybrook? He's banned? Or just ran out of students/suckers to pay for his ISP?

Supposedly he asked TTW admin to close his account.

Don't think that Donny boy could stay away for very long. It seems that he's back with a new nom de plum = Sinnet. The timing is certainly right. Or, mayhaps, @Sinnet is merely channeling the newly-departed donnybrook. A bit too much to be a coincidence.

 

[Bender]

The lift created by the legs may not be an active component per se (it's largely caused by the body following the arms by virtue of the arms being connected to the rest of the body), but the direction of this "lift" is upwards and forwards, such that you are to some extent falling into the shot to add extra oomph to the swing.

One thing I've noticed is that because of the passive nature of the liftoff, the liftoff itself is not a mandatory part of the serve, even though the knee bend itself is mandatory. Liftoff should only happen if you are swinging fast enough that your racquet + arm will naturally literally pull up the rest of your body into the air via the "centrifugal" force caused by such a violent swing. This is why when you see pros like Federer warm up their serve (ie hitting puff serves with correct technique), they barely lift off the ground. However, even those puff strokes create enough force to straighten out their knees up to contact, allowing them to make the necessary contact up in front and up high.

The other thing about knee bend aside from providing power in the way I described above is stability. Bent knees allow you to lean into the court during trophy position (however short or long that may be) without losing balance and falling forwards. If you lean forwards using straight legs, not only would you injure yourself when the swing happens (because you'd be putting huge amounts of stress on your hip joint by bending it violently) you wouldn't be able to make contact up high and in front without adjusting your toss for a lower contact point. Even then, the contact point has to be absolutely precise, since your legs are straight and is practically a fixed height (because you can't exactly go any higher when your legs are already straightened out), whereas bent knees can adjust naturally when it straightens out depending on how low or how high your contact point is because of your toss.

It's the same principle as to why car springs are neither fully compressed nor fully extended, because if the spring needs to stretch a little, it can do so without going to plastic deformation. A spring already stretched to but not beyond the ultimate tensile strength of the metal used in the spring however (which is kinda what straightened legs are in a serve), will undergo plastic deformation--ie stretch to the point where it can no longer recover to its former shape--the moment it is stretched any further, or break entirely. Similarly, straightened legs on serve will limit a full range of motion (or even injure you if you swing hard enough), notwithstanding the loss of body weight due to an inability to direct your weight in a way that is useful. You will also not be able to coordinate your body so that you can recover to hit the next shot either.

So yeah, that's my 2p on this topic.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Historic perspective, Pat Dougherty discusses the influence of the rule change around 1962 that allowed both feet to leave the ground before impact on the serve. Before that, one foot had to remain on the ground.

 

[Fxanimator1]

Don't think that Donny boy could stay away for very long. It seems that he's back with a new nom de plum = Sinnet. The timing is certainly right. Or, mayhaps, @Sinnet is merely channeling the newly-departed donnybrook. A bit too much to be a coincidence.

Yeah, "Tennis" backwards is a fitting name.

 

[RetroSpin]

Historic perspective, Pat Dougherty discusses the influence of the rule change around 1962 that allowed both feet to leave the ground before impact on the serve. Before that, one foot had to remain on the ground.

Has anyone ever seen this guy actually hit a serve?

Has he ever developed a big time server? I'm not aware of any of the current big servers in the men's game being IMG products, but I may be wrong.

 

[Curiosity]

........ There is no magic energy that runs through your legs and up to the racket.

Well, there is a bit of magic. Stand relaxed, and then, with feet planted, rotate your upper body back (clockwise for a righty), bending your knees a bit as you do to allow good rotation. Now, in that configuration, jump (extend, launch) your legs vigorously. You will find that your torso rotates forward. It is a consequence of human anatomy. Extending the legs automatically forces the torso to realign with the legs at the hips, providing UB rotation speed, which in turn provides some racquet head speed, without stressing the shoulder.

A fast serve can be hit without leg launch, purely by rotation of the torso, but doing so requires (to achieve fast racquet speed) that the arm come over high. If you watch one of the "look ma, no legs!" sitting or kneeling serves, you'll notice they flunk the shoulder-over-shoulder pivot. They don't get the right shoulder high. They cause, in other words, impingement of the shoulder and slow destruction of the cartilage at the top of the joint. Take your pick.

 

[Digital Atheist]

Has anyone ever seen this guy actually hit a serve?

The closest I've seen is his demo against the fence in Hammer that Serve - see post 126.

youtu.be/xjXJGsRtm08?t=380

Take from that what you will.