Controlling the middle of the court: Why Djokovic is so hard to beat

bjsnider

Hall of Fame
Disclaimer: I am not a fan of Djokovic, and I didn't write this post as part of some 'my guy is better than your guy' war of attrition. The biggest reason I created this post is to enhance my own understanding of the subject matter. I'm just thinking out loud, so I could be wrong about all of this. Feedback is welcome.

There's no point in discussing Djokovic's great hold game, other than to point out that it's all about placement and ball action rather than, as it was in his younger days, raw power. I'll be interested to see Djokovic's hold percentages once the early part of 2018 is eliminated from the dataset, because if my guess is right, he'll be in the top 5 on the tour.

I will focus instead on the return game. Recently, an article appeared on the ATP website written by one of Djokovic's coaches, Craig O’Shannessy, about how Djokovic is determined to play shorter rallies and win the large majority of them (no more than 5 shots):

Djokovic won 20 more points than Coric for the match (72 to 52), and crafted 15 of them in rally lengths from one to five shots. That's a layer of our sport that matters more than we ever realised.
[...]
Our eyes would have us believe the recent rise of Djokovic (27-1 since the beginning of Wimbledon) is mainly due to dominance in the long rallies. It's not. He is back to being the apex predator hunting his hidden advantage in the 0-4 shot rally length. He forces mayhem in his opponents’ strokes and mind much more with serves and returns than by extending the rally.

https://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/djokovic-shanghai-2018-brain-game

At this point, we need to explain why Djokovic's strategy cannot be effectively executed by anyone else, and why he wins so damned much. As I see it, it's all about inside shots vs. outside shots and change of direction -- here I am indebted to Wardlaw's Directionals. According to the Directionals, in the abstract, there are two kinds of players -- court splitters and players with a weapon. The latter is defined as a player who relies heavily on one shot, usually a forehand, to take control of, and win tennis points. The former is a player who is equally good from both sides. Clearly, although Djokovic likes to hit forehands, he's a court splitter if there ever was one.

According to the information Wardlaw used to develop his Directionals, most errors happen during changes of ball direction. The safest shots to hit in tennis are cross court ground strokes where the ball is already going in that direction. Wardlaw set up some rules to specify when it was relatively safe to change the ball's direction. In his view, it is the player who changes direction who gains control of the tennis point and can then dictate.

Wardlaw's rules on direction changes are based on the concept of inside and outside shots. An outside shot is the most common form of tennis groundstroke. In an outside shot, the ball crosses the body from one side to the other. For example, a right-handed forehand hit from the right side of the court (deuce side) is an outside shot. Conversely, a right-handed backhand hit from the left side of the court (ad side) is an outside shot. However, when the court positions are reversed, for example a right-handed forehand hit from the ad side, that's now an inside shot. This is the shot, the mighty inside forehand, that most players use as their primary weapons. There are likely hundreds of Youtube video compilations of Federer, Nadal et al. hitting massive inside forehand winners. It is inside shots where Wardlaw recommends changing direction, because the body would find it awkward to rotate far enough to hit the ball up the line wide. It's much easier to hit an outside shot wide, since the shoulder rotation is already open and pointing that way. Wardlaw recommends players with a weapon change direction only when they can step into the court from inside positions. He recommends court splitters also change directions when they get a short ball. At the top of the ATP, many weapon players also change directions, or try to, on short balls, even if it's an outside shot.

The players know this. It's part of their training as youngsters and juniors. It's how they play. They don't like to play differently. Different patterns of play get them out of their 'comfort zone'. Djokovic knows that they know. I contend that he's so unstoppable because he mostly ignores the directional rules and, by superb execution, gets away with it.

Lets take a look at a couple of sequences on Coric's serve from the recent (as I'm writing this) Shanghai 2018 final. Coric lost in straights. Afterward, he described the experience, in broken English, as "not fun for me", or perhaps if he'd mastered the language more, "miserable", "tortuous", "arduous", "frustrating" and any number of additional adjectives.

Point one:
Coric serving in the near court. Djokovic hits a decent return, Coric steps in and hits a follow-up. What follows is a few high-percentage cross-court shots from each guy.

EkFCpWt.jpg


Djokovic steps in and redirects an outside backhand up the line. This is a 90 degree redirect. The ball is now orthogonal with the baseline. The ball Djokovic hit was not a short ball. This violates Wardlaw's rules, even for a court splitter. Djokovic has now taken control of the point from the middle of the court. Coric will have to move to hit the response.

xkkiPub.jpg


Coric is playing defense. He hits a weak forehand, Djokovic follows up with an outside forehand angled even more sharply into the deuce corner, which prompts a weaker Coric forehand. Djokovic steps in and hits an angled backhand cross court. This is a high-percentage outside-out redirect, of the sort recommended by Wardlaw. Djokovic is still in the middle of the court, while Coric is running from side to side playing defense.

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Djokovic moves to the net, cuts off Coric's weak defensive shot and volleys into the deuce corner, and Coric hits a forced error.

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As the volley hits the court, you can see how far behind the ball Coric has gotten. I've tried to draw in some guide lines to illustrate the flow of this point. Djokovic has stayed in the middle, while Coric has been pulled to the sides, falling further and further behind the ball with each shot.

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Point two:
Same game, Coric serves from the ad side, Djokovic hits an angled return to the corner, Coric moves in and hits a reply.

jav0eAM.jpg


This time, Djokovic moves in and immediately hits a 90 degree redirect. Like the previous point, this is an outside backhand hit on a medium-length ball. Clearly, a violation of the Directionals. It's executed perfectly, and Djokovic is now in control of the point.

UxQ2sS2.jpg


Coric is already so far behind the ball that all he can do is hit a lob.

p6d34Rx.jpg


Djokovic pounds a forehand into the deuce corner again, prompting another lob.

kIG3jhU.jpg


Djokovic steps in and hits an inside-out forehand that draws a forced error from Coric. This shot is a redirect, but one that conforms to the Directionals. An inside shot hit cross court over the low part of the net. I've also drawn some lines illustrating the geometry in play. Djokovic narrowed his court to the ad side only, and widened Coric's court. Coric is having to defend a much wider baseline than the physical dimensions of the court. This is the kind of prototypical point Djokovic wants to play on an opponent's serve. The rest of the tour would like to do this too, but would likely error out a lot more than Djokovic if they dared try it. FWIW, Djokovic broke Coric in this game.

JFlxQmg.jpg


HOW TO BEAT DJOKOVIC

Given all of these exceptional abilities, how would a player go about overcoming Djokovic? First, Djokovic doesn't always hit the right shot, or execute perfectly. Sometimes he just has a bad day. He's just as vulnerable to injury, illness, burnout, or ill-fitting conditions as any other player. That aside, I think any player needs to be realistic and concede a lot of breaks. It's therefore necessary to break Djokovic at least as much. This is proving to be increasingly difficult as Djokovic implements a Federer-like strategy on serve. If Djokovic is going to lose, it would probably be to a player with a great return game -- as I'm writing this, Nadal on clay, Schwartzman, Goffin, Murray. No offense to those guys, but I think Djokovic can break them almost at will. We really haven't seen, up until now, a court splitter with such a great offensive game, who could also defend the baseline like Djokovic. It shouldn't come as any surprise that he's just about unstoppable. Any player who outhits his opponent, more consistent court penetration, will win. This is how Stan has overcome Djokovic a few times. So far, nobody has been able to do this consistently. In sum, unless something extraordinary happens, like the 2015 RG final, or the occasional bad performance by Djokovic, he probably can't be beat.
 

GoldenSwing

Rookie
In summary:

Djokovic can redirect the ball to complex angles, even if the opponent hits a solid shot against him.

Good analysis and post.

But I would say that isn't a surprise...........
Djokovic is the GOAT when it comes to changing the direction of the ball (agassi a close second).

How does he do this?
Being a once in a generation player helps. But probably immeasurable hours of practice and match experience.

Not to mention his form is rock solid and nearly textbook.
I've noticed that he is extraordinarly adept at adjusting to balls.
Whether it be low, high, side to side, heavy top spin, or flat. Novak just seems like he knows exactly what do with the opponent's ball
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
Nice thread.

Court-splitter is the perfect term for Djokovic's playing style. And yes, his nonpareil knack for winning the direction-shift game is at the core of his success. And while many claim to find Djokovic boring, I tend to find that kind of style very exciting – it's basically geometry played out on a tennis court. I put Nishikori in that same general ballpark, Goffin too.

I think saying he can't be beat, is pushing it. As the aforementioned Craig O'Shaughnessy has argued, Wawrinka has laid out one playbook to beating the Djokovic game. If you hit the ball deep and penetrating enough, then even the most skilled court-splitter like Djokovic will be pushed back into a space where his changes of direction become both harder to execute and less effective. Of course, this is an extremely fine tightrope to walk and a high-risk game plan. But Stan has shown it can be done.

In terms of upcoming players, stylistically, I could see Shapovalov develop a game that could unsettle Novak's game plan, if he develops well. As the OP explains nicely, Novak's an expert at disrupting players from carrying out their preferred, normal patterns of play. Well – Shapo is one of those guys who seems to me to not really follow the 'normal' rules, for better and worse. He has a sort of uncompromising aggressiveness in his approach, and he himself often goes for the kind of directional changes that certainly aren't by the book (and which sometimes results in an error extravaganza). It's and instinctive form of play. But that's pure speculation at any rate.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
The players who could unsettle Djokovic:

1. Nadal on clay and on a good day on the other surfaces too. On clay he is nearly unbeatable when playing well, no matter what Djokovic or anyone for that matter does. On the other surfaces, on a very good day, Nadal can beat Djokovic through physicality and dominating with his FH, especially DTL. Ona day when Nadal is feeling the DTL FH, Novak is in big trouble. It was a miracle he escaped at Wimb this year.

2. Pre-2013 Federer. In other words a Federer who is not too old to compete with Novak in BO5. He can use his slice and variety to unsettle Novak and also dominate with his FH. Like in Nadal's case, if Fed's FH is firing, Novak is in big trouble.

3. Wawrinka. If Wawrinka is feeling it, he can hit Djokovic off the court with his heavy shots off both wings. If Djokovic is in his defensive mode, he will get exposed by Stan's power. There is not a particular wing that Novak could try to neutralize because Stan hits big and deep off both wings. Stan is the one opponent Novak can't afford to play defensively against.

Just my 2 cents. Only these 3 guys can beat a well-playing Novak IMO.
 

Red Rick

Bionic Poster
Nice thread.

Court-splitter is the perfect term for Djokovic's playing style. And yes, his nonpareil knack for winning the direction-shift game is at the core of his success. And while many claim to find Djokovic boring, I tend to find that kind of style very exciting – it's basically geometry played out on a tennis court. I put Nishikori in that same general ballpark, Goffin too.

I think saying he can't be beat, is pushing it. As the aforementioned Craig O'Shaughnessy has argued, Wawrinka has laid out one playbook to beating the Djokovic game. If you hit the ball deep and penetrating enough, then even the most skilled court-splitter like Djokovic will be pushed back into a space where his changes of direction become both harder to execute and less effective. Of course, this is an extremely fine tightrope to walk and a high-risk game plan. But Stan has shown it can be done.

In terms of upcoming players, stylistically, I could see Shapovalov develop a game that could unsettle Novak's game plan, if he develops well. As the OP explains nicely, Novak's an expert at disrupting players from carrying out their preferred, normal patterns of play. Well – Shapo is one of those guys who seems to me to not really follow the 'normal' rules, for better and worse. He has a sort of uncompromising aggressiveness in his approach, and he himself often goes for the kind of directional changes that certainly aren't by the book (and which sometimes results in an error extravaganza). It's and instinctive form of play. But that's pure speculation at any rate.
I feel like Shapovalov will run into some advanced problems he'll have to solve to beat Djokovic

Like hitting more than 5 consecutive balls within the lines.
 
The players who could unsettle Djokovic:

1. Nadal on clay and on a good day on the other surfaces too. On clay he is nearly unbeatable when playing well, no matter what Djokovic or anyone for that matter does. On the other surfaces, on a very good day, Nadal can beat Djokovic through physicality and dominating with his FH, especially DTL. Ona day when Nadal is feeling the DTL FH, Novak is in big trouble. It was a miracle he escaped at Wimb this year.

2. Pre-2013 Federer. In other words a Federer who is not too old to compete with Novak in BO5. He can use his slice and variety to unsettle Novak and also dominate with his FH. Like in Nadal's case, if Fed's FH is firing, Novak is in big trouble.

3. Wawrinka. If Wawrinka is feeling it, he can hit Djokovic off the court with his heavy shots off both wings. If Djokovic is in his defensive mode, he will get exposed by Stan's power. There is not a particular wing that Novak could try to neutralize because Stan hits big and deep off both wings. Stan is the one opponent Novak can't afford to play defensively against.

Just my 2 cents. Only these 3 guys can beat a well-playing Novak IMO.
Karlovic
 

Roddick85

Hall of Fame
The players who could unsettle Djokovic:

1. Nadal on clay and on a good day on the other surfaces too. On clay he is nearly unbeatable when playing well, no matter what Djokovic or anyone for that matter does. On the other surfaces, on a very good day, Nadal can beat Djokovic through physicality and dominating with his FH, especially DTL. Ona day when Nadal is feeling the DTL FH, Novak is in big trouble. It was a miracle he escaped at Wimb this year.

2. Pre-2013 Federer. In other words a Federer who is not too old to compete with Novak in BO5. He can use his slice and variety to unsettle Novak and also dominate with his FH. Like in Nadal's case, if Fed's FH is firing, Novak is in big trouble.

3. Wawrinka. If Wawrinka is feeling it, he can hit Djokovic off the court with his heavy shots off both wings. If Djokovic is in his defensive mode, he will get exposed by Stan's power. There is not a particular wing that Novak could try to neutralize because Stan hits big and deep off both wings. Stan is the one opponent Novak can't afford to play defensively against.

Just my 2 cents. Only these 3 guys can beat a well-playing Novak IMO.

It's a bit funny when you think about it, pre 2013, Djokovic was the best match-up for Federer and Nadal was the one that gave him nightmare. Over the last couple of years, it seems Federer "solved" Nadal, but Djokovic became a terrible match-up. Age plays a huge factor in their rivalry with Federer dominating a green Djokovic back when he was in his peak and peak Djokovic dominating an aging Federer, but as you said yourself, Fed's backhand slice and GOAT forehand is what troubled Djokovic and these 2 strokes started to decline a lot when he switched to the RF 97. I don't want to start a debate about equipment, but I think most agree that his slice lost a lot of bite when he switched to the RF97A and I believe Fed himself said his forehand felt better with the 90, coincidence or not, his problems with Djokovic started around the time he switched frames.

I think that when Wawrinka is playing at his very best, he's very hard to stop on any surfaces beside grass. He's got way more power than the "top 3" so when he starts hitting angles with that kind of pace, there's not much anyone can do but to weather the storm. As a result, Djokovic got bullied a few times and couldn't do much, Federer also got bullied at the FO in 2015, same for Nadal at the AO 14. It's a shame Wawrinka was a late bloomer, because with that kind of game and perhaps a stronger return game, he could've achieved a lot more.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
It's a bit funny when you think about it, pre 2013, Djokovic was the best match-up for Federer and Nadal was the one that gave him nightmare. Over the last couple of years, it seems Federer "solved" Nadal, but Djokovic became a terrible match-up. Age plays a huge factor in their rivalry with Federer dominating a green Djokovic back when he was in his peak and peak Djokovic dominating an aging Federer, but as you said yourself, Fed's backhand slice and GOAT forehand is what troubled Djokovic and these 2 strokes started to decline a lot when he switched to the RF 97. I don't want to start a debate about equipment, but I think most agree that his slice lost a lot of bite when he switched to the RF97A and I believe Fed himself said his forehand felt better with the 90, coincidence or not, his problems with Djokovic started around the time he switched frames.

I think that when Wawrinka is playing at his very best, he's very hard to stop on any surfaces beside grass. He's got way more power than the "top 3" so when he starts hitting angles with that kind of pace, there's not much anyone can do but to weather the storm. As a result, Djokovic got bullied a few times and couldn't do much, Federer also got bullied at the FO in 2015, same for Nadal at the AO 14. It's a shame Wawrinka was a late bloomer, because with that kind of game and perhaps a stronger return game, he could've achieved a lot more.
It is age. Not saying Djokovic's level doesn't play a role, but anyone who denies that Federer's age has played the biggest role in the recent unbalanced rivalry between them doesn't have the correct impression.

Stan's game is deadly, but someone like Fed can diffuse it. All of Wawrinka's victories over Federer have occurred on clay, which makes sense as clay is the only surface on which Fed can't take time away from Stan and rush him. Nadal too can diffuse Stan by peppering his BH. Djokovic is the only Big 3 player Stan feels comfortable playing and it's mostly thanks to him that Stan is a 3 time slam champion IMO.
 
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Deleted member 757377

Guest
Djokovic is destined to be the best player in the history.

Tennis has reached its peak in popularity (= talents) and training.

That's one of the reasons new generations are struggling.
 

Roddick85

Hall of Fame
Stan's game is deadly, but someone like Fed can diffuse it. All of Wawrinka's victories over Federer have occurred on clay, which makes sense as clay is the only surface on which Fed can't take time away from Stan and rush him. Nadal too can diffuse Stan by peppering his BH. Djokovic is the only Big 3 player Stan feels comfortable playing and it's mostly thanks to him that Stan is a 3 time slam champion IMO.
SF of the WTF in 2014 is the only place where Wawrinka pushed Fed outside of clay and came awfully close to winning. Stan needs more time to setup his shots and yes Federer takes time away from him which gives him trouble. But putting aside the technicalities, I always felt like their was more to this match-up as far as why Federer dominates. I always get the feeling that whenever these 2 play, Wawrinka tends to lose his "killer instinct" because he's friends with Federer and sorta sees him as an "older brother".
 
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Deleted member 757377

Guest
2. Pre-2013 Federer. In other words a Federer who is not too old to compete with Novak in BO5. He can use his slice and variety to unsettle Novak and also dominate with his FH. Like in Nadal's case, if Fed's FH is firing, Novak is in big trouble.
WI14-AO16 Fed was in the first part of a 52-2 streak against other players in Bo5, ended 3 years later, but was too old to compete in Bo5...

Sounds logic.
 

Raining hopes

Hall of Fame
WI14-AO16 Fed was in the first part of a 52-2 streak against other players in Bo5, ended 3 years later, but was too old to compete in Bo5...

Sounds logic.

We have discussed this

Again a simplified and short version:

Things I am using to support the playing style and age argument :

a) The slam H2H during 2008-12 when by @Lew's Logic by being top3 he was very good or simply at Peak

b)The evenness of bo3 h2h of the period 2014-16 (4-4) and disparity in slamh2h with bo3 of the same period.


2011-12 Djokovic was near peak or even peak, Federer kept up with him in slams. Djokovic in 2011 wasn't stretched to deciding set against anyone in slams nor did he lose to anyone except Federer and he was on the verge of losing that USO SF too.
And the H2H in slams was 1-1 in 2012

Add to that the 50-50 distribution of slam matches in h2h in 2008-12 years when Djokovic was top3/4 or even no.1. Proving a good Djokovic vs Relatively younger Fred is near 50-50 in slams(Not my imagination but fact as per h2h)


What changes in 2014-16 when Federer keeps up with him bo3 at the same rate or slightly better than before but loses miserably in bo5 , especially when by your logic the (Federer who wasn't beating the entire field as much as 2015) wasn't Peak in 2011-12 and still matched peak Djokovic ?

Now one will say Djokovic became better however:
Clearly Djokovic 2014-16 didn't become too superior to Federer to keep up,the 4-4 h2h in bo3 doesn't support that assumption.

Thus that assumption is false.

Slam h2h during 2011-12 and 2008-12 support the view that Fedovicl matches when they are good are supposed to be near 50-50

Bo3 h2h of 2014-16 and disparity of it with slam h2h supports the age and Kamikaze type style argument

Only bo5 h2h in 2014-16 doesn't following the pattern


Federer's style of play and age mattered a lot.

Check mate.Sir you lose.
 
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KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
WI14-AO16 Fed was in the first part of a 52-2 streak against other players in Bo5, ended 3 years later, but was too old to compete in Bo5...

Sounds logic.
You need to look deeper than just numbers. Yes they show dominance vs the field. But the racket change definitely weakened his FH and slice... his biggest weapons vs Djokovic. The only peak ATG during that time... along with Nadal up until 2014 RG which is why Fed got destroyed at the AO by him too, and by Wawrinka on clay and choked vs Gulbis... also lost to Seppi LOL.

Yes too old to compete BO5 vs Nole, as proven by his 0-4 record in this period vs 2-3 in 2011-2012.
 
D

Deleted member 757377

Guest
We have discussed this

Again a simplified and short version:

Things I am using to support the playing style and age argument :

a) The slam H2H during 2008-12 when by @Lew's Logic by being top3 he was very good or simply at Peak

b)The evenness of bo3 h2h of the period 2014-16 (4-4) and disparity in slamh2h with bo3 of the same period.


2011-12 Djokovic was near peak or even peak, Federer kept up with him in slams. Djokovic in 2011 wasn't stretched to deciding set against anyone in slams nor did he lose to anyone except Federer and he was on the verge of losing that USO SF too.
And the H2H in slams was 1-1 in 2012

Add to that the 50-50 distribution of slam matches in h2h in 2008-12 years when Djokovic was top3/4 or even no.1. Proving a good Djokovic vs Relatively younger Fred is near 50-50 in slams(Not my imagination but fact as per h2h)


What changes in 2014-16 when Federer keeps up with him bo3 at the same rate or slightly better than before but loses miserably in bo5 , especially when by your logic the (Federer who wasn't beating the entire field as much as 2015) wasn't Peak in 2011-12 and still matched peak Djokovic ?

Now one will say Djokovic became better however:
Clearly Djokovic 2014-16 didn't become too superior to Federer to keep up,the 4-4 h2h in bo3 doesn't support that assumption.

Thus that assumption is false.

Slam h2h during 2010-12 and 2008-12 support the view that Fedovicl matches when they are good are supposed to be near 50-50

Bo3 h2h of 2014-16 and disparity of it with slam h2h supports the age and Kamikaze type style argument

Only bo5 h2h in 2014-16 doesn't following the pattern


Federer's style of play and age mattered a lot.

Check mate.Sir you lose.
I won't say Djokovic 2010-12 was not competitive, he owned the field.

He was, as Federer was in 2014-16, for the same reason (52-2 with one loss being when he got injured).

At the end of the day Djoko leads the total h2h of those years by 8 wins to 2, the same score he had with his pigeon Murray, so it's pretty clear who wins when they meet.
 
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Raining hopes

Hall of Fame
I won't say Djokovic 2010-12 was not competitive, he owned the field.

He was, as Federer was in 2014-16, for the same reason.

And Djoko leads the h2h 8-2.

Err in a good year of 2012 he was 3-2 against Fred

In 2011 Federer took him to match point down on hc and defeated him on Clay while they didn't meet in grass when it came to slams. While the entire field wasn't able to get. him to a deciding set in bo5

2010 the h2h was 4-1 Fred. By your logic since Djokovic was top3 and enough to reach slam final he was very good.

What is 8-2 meant to imply ?

If slam h2h post 2010 or something that is excluding partition of the time spam into two very different periods 2008-12 and 2014-16 without any merit.

I have shown why .

You are still running around circles since the first instance of starting this particular debate. Not providing counter argument and what fault my interpretation of data had.
 
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Deleted member 757377

Guest
Err in a good year of 2012 he was 3-2 against Fred

In 2011 Federer took him to match point down on hc and defeated him on Clay while they didn't meet in grass when it came to slams. While the entire field wasn't able to get. him to a deciding set in bo5

2010 the h2h was 4-1 Fred. By your logic since Djokovic was top3 and enough to reach slam final he was very good.

What is 8-2 meant to imply ?

If slam h2h post 2010 or something that is excluding partition of the time spam into two very different periods 2008-12 and 2014-16 without any merit.

8-2 in the last h2h against a player who ended 3 months ago a 52-2 streak against other players, and we should believe the reason was age???
 
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Deleted member 307496

Guest
Meet him before 2011 and never past the quarterfinals.
That's more about Roddick's seeding not Novak's form. Roddick was usually ranked 6 those days. How is he going to meet him later if he is slated to meet him in the QF?
 
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Deleted member 757377

Guest
That's more about Roddick's seeding not Novak's form. Roddick was usually ranked 6 those days. How is he going to meet him later if he is slated to meet him in the QF?
Didn't write it was anyone's fault, but if they met in finals/semis (and post 2010 too) the h2h would be more meaningful.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
SF of the WTF in 2014 is the only place where Wawrinka pushed Fed outside of clay and came awfully close to winning. Stan needs more time to setup his shots and yes Federer takes time away from him which gives him trouble. But putting aside the technicalities, I always felt like their was more to this match-up as far as why Federer dominates. I always get the feeling that whenever these 2 play, Wawrinka tends to lose his "killer instinct" because he's friends with Federer and sorta sees him as an "older brother".
Hmmm, I don't know about that. He almost beat him at IW 2013 and WTF 2014 and actually beat him in MC 2009, MC 2014 and RG 2015. He does try to beat him, but Roger's game is too tough to handle for him.

If he had seen him as an older brother, he would have given Roger his maiden MC title, don't you think? :D
 
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Deleted member 307496

Guest
Didn't write it was anyone's fault, but if they met in finals/semis (and post 2010 too) the h2h would be more meaningful.
No it wouldn't. A QF is still deep into a slam.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Good analysis by OP but I would add "transitions" as a new tool Djokovic is utilizing in his resurgence and this could possibly make him more deadly than before moving forward. He is more aware of where he is on court and when to come in to the net to pressure his opponent. He has been coming to the net a lot more these 4 months than he ever has in his career and the numbers have to be pretty good. He is obviously aware that continuing to camp out on the baseline, which is something he did too much in 2011-2016, is not the way to go if you want to win matches easily, and he is aware of the angles he can create. I think this is very important.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
It is age. Not saying Djokovic's level doesn't play a role, but anyone who denies that Federer's age has played the biggest role in the recent unbalanced rivalry between them doesn't have the correct impression.

Stan's game is deadly, but someone like Fed can diffuse it. All of Wawrinka's victories over Federer have occurred on clay, which makes sense as clay is the only surface on which Fed can't take time away from Stan and rush him. Nadal too can diffuse Stan by peppering his BH. Djokovic is the only Big 3 player Stan feels comfortable playing and it's mostly thanks to him that Stan is a 3 time slam champion IMO.

You give Stan too much credit when it comes to Novak and not enough when it comes to Nadal. The one who would be most in danger against an on fire Stan in a hardcourt Slam is Nadal not Djokovic. The reason is, Nadal can get loopy and too defensive when he is not feeling the ball that well, I noticed he was doing that a lot at this year's USO, and this would put him in danger against Wawrinka who would just blast this high sitting balls. Luckily for Nadal, he only had to play Stan once in a hardcourt Slam after 2013. On clay, Stan has no chance and can't even win a set as Nadal showed.

As for Djokovic, the success Wawrinka has had has a lot to do with Djokovic underperforming than he being most comfortable playing him. The Djokovic that played in RG 2015 was an imposter and nowhere near the version that played in the earlier rounds and Nadal. He was stiff, nervous and frankly just played a tactically wrong and passive match. He allowed that to happen. When he controlled the court, like he was in the 4th before collapsing for the final time, he was ahead on the scoreboard. In the USO 2016, he was not 100% and really only got that far because of a soft draw, and even then he had so many break points and so many opportunities to come into the net after having Stan beat in a point to only retreat back to the baseline and let Stan reset point after point. This was another tactical error match for Djokovic. Now, Wawrinka has the ability to push Djokovic but Djokovic has the ability to up his game and beat him at crunch time. They have played 4 five setters and Djokovic is 3-1 in those and should be 4-0 if he had made an easy backhand volley in 2014 AO. I think you are putting way too much stock in those RG and USO matches where Djokovic was not playing at his top level.

As for Federer and Wawrinka, Federer is by far the worst matchup of the three because Federer has what Wawrinka hates: variety. Wawrinka likes consistency and rhythm and Federer robs him of all that but also Federer has him beat in the mentality department before he takes to court in a match against him. Federer is the Swiss top dog and always will be and Wawrinka to this day is still intimidated by that. He has pushed Federer plenty of times off clay but never beat him and that has a lot to do confidence and mental toughness.

Overall, all three have crushed Stan over their careers. Nadal is 17-3, Federer is 21-3 and Djokovic is 19-5. All three of them would crush him on grass at their best also.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
You give Stan too much credit when it comes to Novak and not enough when it comes to Nadal. The one who would be most in danger against an on fire Stan in a hardcourt Slam is Nadal not Djokovic. The reason is, Nadal can get loopy and too defensive when he is not feeling the ball that well, I noticed he was doing that a lot at this year's USO, and this would put him in danger against Wawrinka who would just blast this high sitting balls. Luckily for Nadal, he only had to play Stan once in a hardcourt Slam after 2013. On clay, Stan has no chance and can't even win a set as Nadal showed.

As for Djokovic, the success Wawrinka has had has a lot to do with Djokovic underperforming than he being most comfortable playing him. The Djokovic that played in RG 2015 was an imposter and nowhere near the version that played in the earlier rounds and Nadal. He was stiff, nervous and frankly just played a tactically wrong and passive match. He allowed that to happen. When he controlled the court, like he was in the 4th before collapsing for the final time, he was ahead on the scoreboard. In the USO 2016, he was not 100% and really only got that far because of a soft draw, and even then he had so many break points and so many opportunities to come into the net after having Stan beat in a point to only retreat back to the baseline and let Stan reset point after point. This was another tactical error match for Djokovic. Now, Wawrinka has the ability to push Djokovic but Djokovic has the ability to up his game and beat him at crunch time. They have played 4 five setters and Djokovic is 3-1 in those and should be 4-0 if he had made an easy backhand volley in 2014 AO. I think you are putting way too much stock in those RG and USO matches where Djokovic was not playing at his top level.

As for Federer and Wawrinka, Federer is by far the worst matchup of the three because Federer has what Wawrinka hates: variety. Wawrinka likes consistency and rhythm and Federer robs him of all that but also Federer has him beat in the mentality department before he takes a match against him. Federer is the Swiss top dog and always will be and Wawrinka to this day is still intimidated by that. He has pushed Federer plenty of times off clay but never beat and that has a lot to do confidence and mental toughness.

Overall, all three have crushed Stan over their careers. Nadal is 17-3, Federer is 21-3 and Djokovic is 19-5. All three of them would crush him on grass at their best also.
I also put stock in their AO 2014 match, not just their RG an USO matches. In 2014-2016, Stan was genuinely Novak's biggest challenge in GS, if not the only challenge in GS.

And yes, of course Novak under-performed by being too passive and allowing Stan to dictate. But that's how a bad match-up functions: a bad match-up makes the opposing player under-perform just like it has happened in the Wawrinka-Djokovic slam matches.

Also, pretty much all of their slam matches have either been 5 setters or 4 set wins for Stan. Wawrinka always pushes Djokovic because he is a bad match-up for Nole.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
I also put stock in their AO 2014 match, not just their RG an USO matches. In 2014-2016, Stan was genuinely Novak's biggest challenge in GS, if not the only challenge in GS.

And yes, of course Novak under-performed by being too passive and allowing Stan to dictate. But that's how a bad match-up functions: a bad match-up makes the opposing player under-perform just like it has happened in the Wawrinka-Djokovic slam matches.

Also, pretty much all of their slam matches have either been 5 setters or 4 set wins for Stan. Wawrinka always pushes Djokovic because he is a bad match-up for Nole.

He definitely wasn't his only challenge. Djokovic got challenged by Murray, Cilic, Dimitrov, Anderson and Federer during that time. USO 2015 was 4 tight sets.

No a bad matchup means you are going to lose more matches against this guy than win because your game does not effect him the same way as others. Not the same thing when it comes to Djokovic/Wawrinka. Djokovic didn't underperform in USO 2013, AO 2013, AO 2014 or AO 2015 so that cannot be the reason he did in the other two matches.

Yea 5 setters that Djokovic mostly wins. Over their entire careers they have played five 5 setters and Djokovic is 4-1 in them. He also had chances to win the AO 2014 one. The 4 set wins have been when Djokovic was not at his best. Wawrinka has also pushed Federer to 5 and if Nadal had played him as much as Djokovic, they would have had close matches as well. That's not what a bad matchup is. You cannot say he is bad matchup for Djokovic when he is 5-19 against him and 3-5 in BO5.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
The players who could unsettle Djokovic:

1. Nadal on clay and on a good day on the other surfaces too. On clay he is nearly unbeatable when playing well, no matter what Djokovic or anyone for that matter does. On the other surfaces, on a very good day, Nadal can beat Djokovic through physicality and dominating with his FH, especially DTL. Ona day when Nadal is feeling the DTL FH, Novak is in big trouble. It was a miracle he escaped at Wimb this year.

2. Pre-2013 Federer. In other words a Federer who is not too old to compete with Novak in BO5. He can use his slice and variety to unsettle Novak and also dominate with his FH. Like in Nadal's case, if Fed's FH is firing, Novak is in big trouble.

3. Wawrinka. If Wawrinka is feeling it, he can hit Djokovic off the court with his heavy shots off both wings. If Djokovic is in his defensive mode, he will get exposed by Stan's power. There is not a particular wing that Novak could try to neutralize because Stan hits big and deep off both wings. Stan is the one opponent Novak can't afford to play defensively against.

Just my 2 cents. Only these 3 guys can beat a well-playing Novak IMO.

So, no mention of Murray then? The only guy, other than Federer and Nadal, who has notched up double digit victories against Djokovic and more than twice as many as Wawrinka! Ay ay ay ay ay ay...and so it goes eh Mike? :rolleyes:
 
D

Deleted member 307496

Guest
So, no mention of Murray then? The only guy, other than Federer and Nadal, who has notched up double digit victories against Djokovic and more than twice as many as Wawrinka! Ay ay ay ay ay ay...and so it goes eh Mike? :rolleyes:
Yeah, might as well mention guys from Fed's era then. Oh that's right... you're only content if Murray is hailed as the next coming of Boris Becker LMAO.
 

Gary Duane

Talk Tennis Guru
Some high points:

There's no point in discussing Djokovic's great hold game, other than to point out that it's all about placement and ball action rather than, as it was in his younger days, raw power. I'll be interested to see Djokovic's hold percentages once the early part of 2018 is eliminated from the dataset, because if my guess is right, he'll be in the top 5 on the tour.
First of all we can look at return games won on return on his best surface:

https://www.atpworldtour.com/en/players/novak-djokovic/d643/player-stats?year=2018&surfaceType=hard

30% is a great year for other players, but his career average is 32%. However, his stats have been going up and up, so I think we can say that he is currently closer to 32%. So we know things are working.

Next check his 2nd serve returns: 54% this year, again great for normal mortals, but down from his career average of 56%. Again his current stats are probably back up to 56%. We'll know for sure as 2019 develops.
Our eyes would have us believe the recent rise of Djokovic (27-1 since the beginning of Wimbledon) is mainly due to dominance in the long rallies. It's not. He is back to being the apex predator hunting his hidden advantage in the 0-4 shot rally length. He forces mayhem in his opponents’ strokes and mind much more with serves and returns than by extending the rally.

This is why I argue against the "eye test" when it is not back up with facts. His present strategy is superior at any age but vital over the age of 30.
Clearly, although Djokovic likes to hit forehands, he's a court splitter if there ever was one.
I never heard that term but most likely it describes the players who win more than 30% of games on return. It has to be true also of Nadal these days because he is getting stronger and stronger on the backhand side, and this would describe Murray.
The players know this. It's part of their training as youngsters and juniors. It's how they play. They don't like to play differently. Different patterns of play get them out of their 'comfort zone'. Djokovic knows that they know. I contend that he's so unstoppable because he mostly ignores the directional rules and, by superb execution, gets away with it.
To me that comes down to being better at changing direction, regardless how he does it, than other players. It's very difficult to control down the line shots off cross court shots. It takes superb timing and so it is much riskier. It is never the safe shot, but for those who can make it there are high rewards. Even for the top guys it is easier go either way - cross court or up the line - when returning a ball that is closer to the middle. Then they don't have to make such an extreme angle change and so only have to catch the other guy leaning.

I think what you are highlighting is the exact reason why the "weapon" players are not as good at winning long rallies. Their strategy is always to regain that "weapon advantage" returning. You can see this with Fed, especially this year. His 1st serve return rate remains very good, and the reason is that all servers are at a complete disadvantage after any serve when facing deep returns with pace because they are already into the court, inside the baseline, and those who don't have a great half volley and/or a super ability to hit on the rise can be shocked into a weak return, and then the "weapon" player steps right in and pounces. Whereas a guy like Djokovic totally takes over on 2nd serve return points with probing returns and then the knowledge that if it comes to a war of attrition, he's going to win it. But because he's so good at redirecting even on defense that gives him a tactical weapon to shorten return points.
HOW TO BEAT DJOKOVIC
That's easy, and it's the same answer as beating peak Fed/Sampras on grass or Nadal on clay:
  1. Bring a crucifix
  2. Bring garlic
  3. Bring a wooden stake
:D
 
D

Deleted member 757377

Guest
It tells Hewitt and Nalbandian were great players.

You have to accept Roddick figured out Djoker.
Many non-great players have positive h2h against non-peak ATGs. It's a stat that tells nothing.

Roddick in all his career against top10s is 37-73 with only 6 wins in Slams and 1 at Wimbledon.

This is a more meaningful stat, takes all his career, not just 5 matches in two of Djokovic's mediocre years.
 
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