Controversial Poll -- To change tennis?

Tennis rules and tournament format changes. Check all that apply.

  • All Professional Matches: no ad scoring.

    Votes: 5 8.3%
  • All Professional Matches: retain ad scoring.

    Votes: 47 78.3%
  • Grand Slam Matches: Bo3 tie-break sets until finals: Bo5 TB sets.

    Votes: 12 20.0%
  • Grand Slam Matches: retain current format.

    Votes: 40 66.7%
  • Rec and pro tennis: change scoring to 0, 1, 2, 3, game.

    Votes: 7 11.7%
  • Rec and pro tennis: retain current format.

    Votes: 47 78.3%
  • ATP Matches: permit change-over coaching.

    Votes: 19 31.7%
  • ATP Matches: retain coaching rules.

    Votes: 33 55.0%
  • This is a category of issues I do not care about.

    Votes: 7 11.7%

  • Total voters
    60

TimeSpiral

Professional
Does Tennis have a problem?
Each poll option suggesting a rule-change will be summarized below, articulating it's primary argument. NOTE: As the host of this thread, I will not be taking a formal position on any of these topics in the OP.
By Time Spiral
djokovic,%20nadal,%20aus%20open%202012.jpg

[above] After the five hour and fifty-three minute 2012 Australian Open Final (Djokovic d Nadal 5–7, 6–4, 6–2, 6–7(5), 7–5), the two ultra-fit champions were literally struggling to stand just moments after the match ended. They were brought chairs and bottles of water to relieve the suffering during the trophy ceremony. Some would argue the message that this sends about the sport.
These topics float around, crop up, die away, and pepper our conversation from time to time, but now I want to do a very informal aggregate of TTW members and their positions.

I live in the United States, so this perspective is largely influenced by domestic organizations such as the USTA, but tennis is international and I can only imagine that some other countries and regions face similar challenges. There are certainly other important issues that are not represented here.

NOTICE: The summary and the poll options below are summarized from the perspective of their argument, and are not necessarily my position on the matter.

The argument, summarized

Televising tennis is specifically challenging because of the wildly variable time it can take to play a tennis match. The variance in a game lasting 90 seconds, 10 minutes, or 20 minutes is simply too long for producers and carriers to account for. Besides the telecasting issues, the rules of tennis are nebulous and difficult to understand for the uninitiated. Bringing in new spectator fans is important. And finally, best of 5 tie-break sets (or god forbid, the final set being an advantage set) shortens the viable career longevity of professional tennis players.
All Professional Matches: no ad scoring.
Eliminating advantage-scoring (the "win by two" convention) will stabilize match-length without the implementation of a game, shot, or match clock. Ad-scoring is a difficult concept to understand for newcomers, especially youth. If both players reach 3 points (Deuce) a deciding point is played and the receiver can choose which court his opponent must serve to.

Grand Slam Matches: Bo3 tie-break sets until finals: Bo5 TB sets.
Winning a grand slam--or multiple slams--is considered the primary goal and ultimate accolade of the elite tennis professional. Winning seven best of five matches in a row, in two weeks, versus the best players in the world is too physically demanding. Having tennis stars winning and competing well in tournaments is good for the sport. Having their body's completely destroyed by the age of 30 is not good for the sport.

Secondly, telecasting best of five matches, where one of the sets is potentially an advantage set, creates unique and challenging problems. The variable length of the match would be stabilized by each round being Bo3 tie-break sets, and the finals being Best of 5. No matter how you dice it, winning seven matches in a row in a Grand Slam draw is the ultimate difficulty level. Retaining the Bo5 format in the finals would create a heightened level of importance, difficulty, and necessary change in strategy.

An alternate form of this position is to eliminate all Best of 5 set matches completely, for all of the same reasons as listed above.

Recreational and professional tennis: change scoring to 0, 1, 2, 3, game.
The in-game scoring convention in tennis is--by definition--nonsensical. For instance: Why are some points worth 15, some worth 10, some worth 1, and why are some of the points worth numbers and others referred to by names like love, deuce, and advantage? 0, 1, 2, 3, game, is simple and unambiguous. This will allow the uninitiated a chance to understand what is happening with minimal education about the scoring system.

ATP Matches: permit change-over coaching.
This will eliminate the elephant in the room that most--if not--all ATP players are being coached against the rules from the stand with hand signals, lip reading, and sometimes just overt coaching.
Conclusion
This article will be openly dismissed by meaning. Ridiculed and derided by others. But perhaps some will use this thread as a venue to express their thoughts, opinions, and challenge themselves to at least consider--good or bad--what's being suggested.

No doubt the above suggestions are controversial, heretical, and will likely insult some who hold traditions rightfully close to their hearts. I love tennis--like all of you--and I would like more people to love the game that we love, and like it or not, it is not thriving like it could. Perhaps it's time some meaningful changes are considered?

These changes do nothing to address the stereotypes and connotations that plague the sport in the United States--that tennis is a rich Country Club-only sport--but that is a conversation for another time.

I did not come up with these suggestions. These are conversations being had by players, pro-shop proprietors, consultants, tournaments directors, governing bodies, and think tanks all over the world. Will any of them ever happen? I don't know.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
 
Where is the option that in order to stabilize match length, everything before the quarterfinals is a game of rock-paper-scissors? We can make it best 3 out of 5 if you want.
 
Solution is simple. Just speed up the courts if you want to shorten matches.

That is better for players, since they will get less injured.

For viewers too, because on tv combined match with interviews and build-up can last 6 hours or more.
 
R128 / R64 / R32 : Best of 3.
R16 / QF / SF / F : Best of 5.

And please a tie break in the 5th in EVERY grand slam.

Ro16, QF, SF, F are the most popular and competitive matches. This solution likely doesn't go far enough for those advocating the removal of Bo5 from men's tennis.

As a separate note, the elimination of advantage sets (they only exist in the fifth set of certain slam-level tournaments) is a position that is gaining support in the community, as far as I can tell.
 
Solution is simple. Just speed up the courts if you want to shorten matches.

That is better for players, since they will get less injured.

For viewers too, because on tv combined match with interviews and build-up can last 6 hours or more.

Just make the courts faster as they were before. Problem solved.

I think the same way. And they could also make balls faster too.

And this would also prevent injuries.

Just make the courts faster as they were before. Problem solved.

[court speed] is a hotly debated topic here and I did not include it in the OP for several reasons.

The primary reason being that ball and court speed are not regulated by the rules of tennis; granted: neither is the best of 5 match format--that's at the tournament level. Another reason is that court surfaces and ball characteristics are already in a constant state of flux and I wanted the OP to primarily address fixed issues.
 
I think current format ultimately tests players Mental and Physical
strenghts , so no need to change the format of matches in slams .
If slam matches are Best of 3 setters instead of BO5 , then what will seperate slam from Masters .

I think it's skill how to short length of the match , I have never seen Federer playing 6 hr match . He finishes the slam match
60-80 minutes upto 4 round Generally .

It's fault of players who uses Less error play rather than attacking like Federer , Tsonga.
 
Among all these "solutions" the horrible one is the suppression of the ad-scoring, really. That would kill tennis IMO.

Epic 20 minutes games are essential to the sport.
 
The one change I'd like to experiment with is coaching during changeovers, if only to expose which players can make adjustments on their own and which ones are clueless in terms of tennis IQ
 
haha, what's the point ? Consistent players don't hit more than 5 double faults in a match, that would make no difference ;)

3 Championship Points away at Wimbledon will surely make everyone nervous, especially the 2009 Championships between Federer and Roddick going 16-14.

I don't like on-court coaching. They can have ''save by the rain'' coaching but then nature is their friend.
 
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[court speed] is a hotly debated topic here and I did not include it in the OP for several reasons.

The primary reason being that ball and court speed are not regulated by the rules of tennis; granted: neither is the best of 5 match format--that's at the tournament level. Another reason is that court surfaces and ball characteristics are already in a constant state of flux and I wanted the OP to primarily address fixed issues.

How about using doubles court in 1v1? That should speed up the matches.
 
The clearest need for change is eliminating the asinine serve let. The let detection devices are obviously wrong often and no one can detect the tiny touches anyway. It also conflicts with the groundstroke rules. It cause arguments in pros and in rec tennis for no benefit. It deserves a separate poll but I'm not going to start it.
 
Honestly I think everything that is mentioned in this poll doesn't need to be changed. If something isn't broken, don't fix it. I don't think there is a "problem" with the current way any of these things are set up.
 
@Timespiral:

I would retain the rules, except for tie-break and definitely allow coaching.
I could not think of any sport that does not allow coaching. Even the Davis cup played by lot of countries and get atp points allow coaching. So the current is junk I think.

Regd the scores 0,1,2,3. There is an article that guess the reason.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_score

I think its more because it is easy to read and say out loud.
Imagine the score board 7-6, 1-2 (1-2) instead of 1-2 (15-30). Its even more difficult to understand for newbies. Same reason they didnt want to go with 10,20,30..its almost the same as 1,2,3
So 15,30,45 makes sense. But two keep them all in 2 syllables they would have went for 15,30,40. Just my take.
 
I think is GSs the same set play should be for both men and women. Why should the guys play bo3 all year long except for 4 GSs when the women don't? Either the men get to also play bo3 or the women step up and plan bo5 format. And women shouldn't get a changeover coach if huge guys can't. It's stupid. The only guy who gets coaching is Rafa, what's up with that? :p
 
The one change I'd like to experiment with is coaching during changeovers, if only to expose which players can make adjustments on their own and which ones are clueless in terms of tennis IQ

theyd have to have a time limit on on court coaching otherwise uncle toni would be down there for half an hour every change over atleast :P
 
@Timespiral:

I would retain the rules, except for tie-break and definitely allow coaching.
I could not think of any sport that does not allow coaching. Even the Davis cup played by lot of countries and get atp points allow coaching. So the current is junk I think.

Regd the scores 0,1,2,3. There is an article that guess the reason.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_score

I think its more because it is easy to read and say out loud.
Imagine the score board 7-6, 1-2 (1-2) instead of 1-2 (15-30). Its even more difficult to understand for newbies. Same reason they didnt want to go with 10,20,30..its almost the same as 1,2,3
So 15,30,45 makes sense. But two keep them all in 2 syllables they would have went for 15,30,40. Just my take.

This is one situation where I just disagree.

I think everyone who has ever wondered about the score has probably read the wiki page, and they are just guesses. There are no citations.

Your take, with the syllables is a unique one that I've never heard before. Nice thinking.

Having to earn a certain number of points to win a game is not unique to tennis. Two other racquet sports have similar conventions and neither use an arbitrary point system (Racquet Ball and Ping Pong). I don't think it is difficult for a newb to understand that:

1 point = 1 point.
1 game = 1 game.
1 set = 1 set.

As opposed to:
1 point = 1 point, but they are each different. It depends on a variety of circumstances listed below--you get the idea. It's nonsensical.
1 game = 1 game.
1 set = 1 set.

I love it, because I am deeply involved in tennis. But the traditionalists here better not be the same guys who say "5-3" to describe the player with "5" being behind the player with "3". Completely asinine. In my opinion, if you voted, or believe, that the traditional in-game point system should be retained, you should at least be using it when you play rec-tennis.

theyd have to have a time limit on on court coaching otherwise uncle toni would be down there for half an hour every change over atleast :P

They could just follow the WTA procedure. The player has to request a coach visit, and then they have a 90 second change-over visit with the coach. Simple.
 
If coaching was to be allowed, I think it should be limited to once a set.

Everything else is not worth a change.
And yeah, bring back the speed...
 
The simplest change in the rules to make tennis a real spectator sport again -

You lose the point if you hit the 97th shot in the same rally.
 
The clearest need for change is eliminating the asinine serve let. The let detection devices are obviously wrong often and no one can detect the tiny touches anyway. It also conflicts with the groundstroke rules. It cause arguments in pros and in rec tennis for no benefit. It deserves a separate poll but I'm not going to start it.



I very much agree with the above. Also, removing lets on the serve would create some spontaneous points where the returner has to sprint to the net and do something with the short ball. This would be interesting to see with players like Nadal that stand 90 feet behind the baseline.
 
If I had the power to change anything, it would be allowing one serve only.

No time wasted between serves.

Dominance of the serve in tennis is reduced. Serve bots weakened (good). More breaks of serve.
 
Please, NO.

If anything I prefer a return to advantage sets for all 5.

Isner had no chance to go farther after winning 70/68 in the 5th.
Same for Roddick winning 21/19 to El Aynaoui, getting crushed by Shuettler the next day.
Paul Henri Mathieu 18/16 vs Isner, lose next round to Granollers.

That's ridiculous...
 
Isner had no chance to go farther after winning 70/68 in the 5th.
Same for Roddick winning 21/19 to El Aynaoui, getting crushed by Shuettler the next day.
Paul Henri Mathieu 18/16 vs Isner, lose next round to Granollers.

That's ridiculous...

Yes, they are exceptionally long matches, but they are not the norm.

Furthermore, if only one serve was allowed it is highly unlikely an advantage set would ever reach 70-68.
 
It was to be expected that a forum stocked with tennis enthusiasts, aficionados, teaching professionals, and recreational players would by hyper-sensitive to the idea of fundamental rule changes. I know I am. But only the strong survive in this competitive world, and the strongest are those who can best adapt to the ever-changing environment.

Part of the idea of this article is to see if this particular group (enthusiasts) is even willing to challenge themselves and consider the changes. So far, the majority aren't (again, not surprising).

But, while it's easy to say that "tennis is fine," from an industry-perspective, it might not be. Even recreational, it might not be. But I know one issue that is not divisive (generally): we'd like the sport to grow in popularity.


wimbledon2008-500x400.gif

Source: http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2008/07/04/wimbledon-tennis-viewership-1973-2008/

U.S. OPEN MEN’S FINALS, HIGHEST RATED:
1. 1980, John McEnroe d. Bjorn Borg, 11.0
2. 1982, Jimmy Connors d. Ivan Lendl, 9.9
3. 1983, Jimmy Connors d. Ivan Lendl, 9.5

WIMBLEDON MEN’S FINALS, LOWEST RATED (SINCE 1988):
1. 2010, Rafael Nadal d. Tomas Berdych, 1.6
2. 2005, Roger Federer d. Andy Roddick, 2.1
3. 2003, Roger Federer d. Mark Philippoussis, 2.2


You may not think rule changes are necessary, and that's fine. That's what the debate is for. Maybe they're not. Maybe, like some of you have suggested, forcing certain play-styles to remain relevant is the way to go.

But the reality that tennis--as an industry--is suffering seems to be an unfortunate fact.
 
Don't fix it if it ain't broken.

That's the heart of the argument, I suppose. As rec-players we may not see (or care) about any potential problems the sport might be having. That doesn't mean they aren't there.

I wonder why the images I posted didn't come through in the above post. Oh well ...

Only 47 voters. I imagined we'd get more votes out of a 1,100 views. Only about 4.2% cared enough to even vote (granted, not all views listed are legit).
 


“Why we are even playing doubles at this point is a mystery to me,” said McEnroe. “I love doubles but I don’t even recognise what this is. If there was a volleying contest from the service line, most of these guys couldn’t . . .” He stopped and sighed. “They play an inch from the net. It is like wham, bam, thank you ma’am.

“If you cut out doubles and gave that money to singles players ranked between 200 and 1,000, maybe that would do something for the game. Then some other guy who never really had the chance to play ends up becoming No 100 in the world instead of quitting when he’s No 400.

“Most doubles players, I hate to say, are the slow guys who were not quick enough to play singles.”


Seriously.gif


Was JMac intoxicated when he said this? He won 71 titles from doubles!

Right, because watching the same four men winning majors and M1000s are much better to watch. :roll:
 
Here's another item for your poll suggested by none other than John McEnroe: ditch doubles at the Grand Slams.

http://tennis.si.com/2013/12/06/daily-bagel-john-mcenroe-daniela-hantuchova/

Oh yeah. I remember that. Pretty shocking suggestion, sure, but he knows: things need to change for the better, soon.

In business--as many here know, because tennis is a rich guy sport--tradition only works as a reason to stay the same if it also meets the benchmarks and goals. If it doesn't, it must be reevaluated.
 
Oh yeah. I remember that. Pretty shocking suggestion, sure, but he knows: things need to change for the better, soon.

In business--as many here know, because tennis is a rich guy sport--tradition only works as a reason to stay the same if it also meets the benchmarks and goals. If it doesn't, it must be reevaluated.

Eh.... that depends.
 
By the results I'd say most (including me) are pretty much content with tennis the way it is...and this makes perfect sense...considering we are on a Tennis Message Board!

I imagine giving the same choices to casual sports fan would yield different results.

The only change I'm for is 3 sets at slams...first it actually is more pressure, on the WTA side you lose set 1 and sense of urgency and drama instantly increases. Second reason is selfish, simply that I don't have 5 freakin' hours to give up for a tennis match! 1.5-3hrs is a consumer friendly product, and relates to what most of us usually play anyways.

It's actually getting to the point with Rafa vs Djoker, or any of the "Big Four" that I'll stay outside and play, "gambling" on the fact that I'll get home in time for the beginning of set 4 at 2-1.
 
R128 / R64 / R32 : Best of 3.
R16 / QF / SF / F : Best of 5.

And please a tie break in the 5th in EVERY grand slam.

NO.

Those would be utterly disgusting changes. BO 5 is what makes slams special as well as possibility of long 5 setter. That is why USO is a dumbed down slam. 5th set breaker is a big fail .
 
Eh.... that depends.

Yep. I was generalizing.

By the results I'd say most (including me) are pretty much content with tennis the way it is...and this makes perfect sense...considering we are on a Tennis Message Board!

I imagine giving the same choices to casual sports fan would yield different results.

The only change I'm for is 3 sets at slams...first it actually is more pressure, on the WTA side you lose set 1 and sense of urgency and drama instantly increases. Second reason is selfish, simply that I don't have 5 freakin' hours to give up for a tennis match! 1.5-3hrs is a consumer friendly product, and relates to what most of us usually play anyways.

It's actually getting to the point with Rafa vs Djoker, or any of the "Big Four" that I'll stay outside and play, "gambling" on the fact that I'll get home in time for the beginning of set 4 at 2-1.

Our perspectives are skewed
Look, everyone here loves tennis. We're enthusiasts, players, professionals--we love it. But only the purist of the pure are going to watch a 4 or 5 hour five set battle. That's not really debatable, and that's part of the problem.

I don't pretend to know all of the challenges tennis organizations around the world are having, but I know they are having them. Let's do a quick comparison.

In the US ...
  • 111 Million people watched the 2012 Super Bowl. You think all of these viewers are hardcore purists? Probably not.
  • A paltry 16 Million people watched the 2012 US Open finals (an epic match!). Sadly, this was the highest rated finals in five years.
  • 22 Million people in China watched the 2012 US Super Bowl.
Look at this Wimbledon graph:
wimbledon2008-500x400.gif


When you say "don't fix it if it isn't broken," I say, "That is the point."

NO.

Those would be utterly disgusting changes. BO 5 is what makes slams special as well as possibility of long 5 setter. That is why USO is a dumbed down slam. 5th set breaker is a big fail .

Utterly disgusting? Seems a little hyperbolic.

Here is a simple question: Why are the slams Best of 5? Why is the fifth set an advantage set but the others aren't? Why is every round, no matter who you are, a best of five sets match?

We all know the slams are the Super Bowls of tennis. But why does the format of the game completely change? The Super Bowl is still four quarters. Touchdowns are still worth six points. The NBA Finals are the same format. Some sports change the format, like Baseball. The division playoffs and the World Series are best of seven matches (but each match has the same rules).

I'm resistant to any of the changes proposed in the OP. For sure. Maybe none of them are the answer, but what this thread is doing more than anything is representing how disconnected the tennis enthusiast community is with the trouble the sport is facing in the real world.
 
Maybe none of them are the answer, but what this thread is doing more than anything is representing how disconnected the tennis enthusiast community is with the trouble the sport is facing in the real world.

The tennis enthusiast community is not disconnected with the trouble tennis is facing in the USA. Tennis is doing just fine. This is a global sport and using Nielsen ratings is an extremely poor way to gauge how it is doing overall.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-23225146

With a peak audience of 17.3 million, Murray's Wimbledon victory was the most watched Wimbledon final in over 20 years. His SF against Janowicz had 13.2 million viewers.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-30/aus-open-final-wins-ratings-battle/3800050

Again, strong Aussie viewership for the 2012 Australian Open final. Eurosport also had an enormous peak audience.

And these are just 2 countries. I don't have statistics for every country, but its not hard to see that tennis is becoming a lot more popular in Asia.

If Tennis was facing trouble in the real world, you wouldn't have Barclays, Emirates, and Mercedes Benz sponsoring the hell out of it. I will start worrying about Tennis as a sport when top tennis players can't find sponsors or are getting 20,000 bucks for winning a grand slam.
 
The tennis enthusiast community is not disconnected with the trouble tennis is facing in the USA. Tennis is doing just fine. This is a global sport and using Nielsen ratings is an extremely poor way to gauge how it is doing overall.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-23225146

With a peak audience of 17.3 million, Murray's Wimbledon victory was the most watched Wimbledon final in over 20 years. His SF against Janowicz had 13.2 million viewers.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-30/aus-open-final-wins-ratings-battle/3800050

Again, strong Aussie viewership for the 2012 Australian Open final. Eurosport also had an enormous peak audience.

And these are just 2 countries. I don't have statistics for every country, but its not hard to see that tennis is becoming a lot more popular in Asia.

If Tennis was facing trouble in the real world, you wouldn't have Barclays, Emirates, and Mercedes Benz sponsoring the hell out of it. I will start worrying about Tennis as a sport when top tennis players can't find sponsors or are getting 20,000 bucks for winning a grand slam.

Agree with this.

Americans always seem to think they are the centre of the universe.
 
Agree with this.

Americans always seem to think they are the centre of the universe.

Well, I'm American and I think you are generalizing a bit too much. :)

However, I can see why you would say that since the suggestion that we should impose such huge changes on tennis in order to improve US tennis ratings is pretty messed up.
 
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