Convince me on buying a new paddle.

[MasturB]

So I bought a Red Wilson Tour Pro from total pickleball during covid around 2020 I think it may have been. It sat in my car for about 3-4 years (not everyday, just most of hte time). I brought it with me on road trips just incase I wanted to play. I ended up not playing for about 3 years.

I recently got back into it and hitting tennis balls after my eye surgery. I'm a tennis coach, and hit with higher level guys in tennis regularly. So tennis is always going to be my first priority.

But I have enjoyed playing pickle recently socially with beginners at open events, and even more fun with other tennis players who play pickle (we stick out like a sorethumb and it's obvious we're tennis players because we just play the game so differently).

My brother wants to start playing, since his boss at his department has invited the staff to play every other Saturday morning. My brother used to play USTA tennis years ago, probably a 3.5 at best, and has spent more time playing golf these days. I let him borrow my Wilson paddle and he said he enjoyed playing with his co-workers and he wants to play with me regularly.

So now I'm just considering giving him my Wilson and buying a new paddle, since I might actually want to enter some pickle tournaments eventually.

I haven't kept up with the new paddle technology. I only bought the Wilson Tour Pro years ago because I've used Wilson Pro Staff tennis racquets for years (and Babolat as well). I noticed the tennis big dogs (Wilson, Babolat, Head, Yonex) aren't the big players in the paddle industry like they are with tennis racquets.

So if I'm serious about buying a "modern" paddle, what brands are the gold standard right now? The ones featured on pickleball-warehouse? Joola, Six-Zero, Selkirk, Gearbox are the "featured" top brands.

I still have a sense of brand loyalty to Wilson/Babolat and wouldn't be opposed to buying one of their paddles. But if Joola is where it's at, and it's that big of a difference maker on court, then I'll give it a try. Money isn't an issue, so I don't need to get a budget paddle.

 

[ByeByePoly]

FYI … non-$250 paddles these days aren’t budget playing paddles.

I tell everyone to pick your preferred paddle shape first (elongated, hybrid, standard) because it narrows the too-many choices.

Also … as a tennis player, this will be your journey … says the retired tennis player:

- will start with powerful elongated paddle with good spin. you will have the best strokes and overheads in open play and yet still lose to players with no strokes or overheads that force you to the kitchen
- after 6+ months of denial, you will commit to kitchen skills … dinks, firefights, 3rd shot drops, fast hands … and that “fast hands” thing gets you to change to hybrid paddle because although heavier swing weight elongated best from baseline, baseline doesn’t beat old ladies good at the kitchen.
- you get much better at the kitchen with your lower swing weight hybrid paddle (who am I kidding … paddles … a new hybrid every two months ), but one day after your hybrid paddle buying frenzy … a thought occurs to you … maybe I should buy one of those ugly short fat paddles (standard/wide). You have magic fast hands at the kitchen with a crap overhead. You add a lot of lead weight to your ugly short fat paddle and overhead becomes less crappy … let’s say playable … and now you remain a short fat (the paddle) paddle player because you are now beating players you were not beating with that powerful elongated paddle.

My 18 month post tennis paddle journey:

Amazon -> Vatic Pro V7 16mm (forehands and overheads rocked) -> Vatic Pro Flash 14mm (great paddle with lead, 14mm not as forgiving as 16mm so 16mm for me from now on) -> Vatic Pro Flash Prism 16mm (was committing to 3rd shot drop and kitchen skills improvement at this time, purple Flash Prism is a fricken awesome control paddle for $90) -> my current paddle … short, fat ugly Spartus Apollo weighted to 8.6 oz, top tier spin … baseline topspin lobs good to go … surprisingly hands still fast at 8.6 oz even starting from stock 8.0 oz 107 swing weight … never played better if we ignore overheads .

So … the question you have to ask yourself is how long do you want to play tennis on the pickleball court. For me the answer was longer than 6 months.

Start here for a broad overview of paddle landscape:

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[ByeByePoly]

So I bought a Red Wilson Tour Pro from total pickleball during covid around 2020 I think it may have been. It sat in my car for about 3-4 years (not everyday, just most of hte time). I brought it with me on road trips just incase I wanted to play. I ended up not playing for about 3 years.

I recently got back into it and hitting tennis balls after my eye surgery. I'm a tennis coach, and hit with higher level guys in tennis regularly. So tennis is always going to be my first priority.

But I have enjoyed playing pickle recently socially with beginners at open events, and even more fun with other tennis players who play pickle (we stick out like a sorethumb and it's obvious we're tennis players because we just play the game so differently).

My brother wants to start playing, since his boss at his department has invited the staff to play every other Saturday morning. My brother used to play USTA tennis years ago, probably a 3.5 at best, and has spent more time playing golf these days. I let him borrow my Wilson paddle and he said he enjoyed playing with his co-workers and he wants to play with me regularly.

So now I'm just considering giving him my Wilson and buying a new paddle, since I might actually want to enter some pickle tournaments eventually.

I haven't kept up with the new paddle technology. I only bought the Wilson Tour Pro years ago because I've used Wilson Pro Staff tennis racquets for years (and Babolat as well). I noticed the tennis big dogs (Wilson, Babolat, Head, Yonex) aren't the big players in the paddle industry like they are with tennis racquets.

So if I'm serious about buying a "modern" paddle, what brands are the gold standard right now? The ones featured on pickleball-warehouse? Joola, Six-Zero, Selkirk, Gearbox are the "featured" top brands.

I still have a sense of brand loyalty to Wilson/Babolat and wouldn't be opposed to buying one of their paddles. But if Joola is where it's at, and it's that big of a difference maker on court, then I'll give it a try. Money isn't an issue, so I don't need to get a budget paddle.

fyi … main new paddle tech that happened was 1) thermoformed edges with perimeter foam 2) much improved spin with carbon, kevlar with resin peel ply outer layer.

The Gearbox PPE paddles are unique core, most powerful legal paddles.

We just went through new tech getting banned … Joola 3rd gen (big lawsuit), Vatic Oni, Ronbus Ripple.

 

[bobleenov1963]

Money isn't an issue, so I don't need to get a budget paddle.

Any paddle over $250 is good. You can't go wrong with any of them.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Any paddle over $250 is good. You can't go wrong with any of them.

Any paddle over $100 is most likely very good. The Vatic Pro Flash Prism is $90 and got rave reviews. My Spartus Apollo is excellent… $117. I have hit $250 Gearbox and $280 gen 3 Jolla … no way to justify those prices in comparison to what is now on the market under $150.

 

[bobleenov1963]

Any paddle over $100 is most likely very good. The Vatic Pro Flash Prism is $90 and got rave reviews. My Spartus Apollo is excellent… $117. I have hit $250 Gearbox and $280 gen 3 Jolla … no way to justify those prices in comparison to what is now on the market under $150.

I originally played with HEAD paddle that I purchased for $110, and it was a good paddle; however the Ben John’s Joola that I purchased for $250 is five times better than the HEAD. I also tried the Selkirk $250 paddle and it is also much better than the $110 HEAD. That’s my opinion.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I originally played with HEAD paddle that I purchased for $110, and it was a good paddle; however the Ben John’s Joola that I purchased for $250 is five times better than the HEAD. I also tried the Selkirk $250 paddle and it is also much better than the $110 HEAD. That’s my opinion.

So you have played with two paddles? Which Joola?

A little over a year ago four companies (Vatic Pro, Six Zero, Ronbus, Legacy) disrupted the $250 paddle companies with better new tech (thermoformed) and sold them for $130-$180. Today you can buy a quality thermoformed paddle for $100-$150 that plays significantly better than the $250 Selkirks and Joolas from two years ago. It’s been a crazy 1-2 years in paddle tech and choices … you really have to work at it to buy a bad thermoformed paddle. They went through an early bad patch where some of the thermoformed paddles plastic cores were crushing because of high heat manufacturing process, but that is mostly resolved.

 

[BlueB]

Here, have this:

 

[MasturB]

I originally played with HEAD paddle that I purchased for $110, and it was a good paddle; however the Ben John’s Joola that I purchased for $250 is five times better than the HEAD. I also tried the Selkirk $250 paddle and it is also much better than the $110 HEAD. That’s my opinion.

So you have played with two paddles? Which Joola?

A little over a year ago four companies (Vatic Pro, Six Zero, Ronbus, Legacy) disrupted the $250 paddle companies with better new tech (thermoformed) and sold them for $130-$180. Today you can buy a quality thermoformed paddle for $100-$150 that plays significantly better than the $250 Selkirks and Joolas from two years ago. It’s been a crazy 1-2 years in paddle tech and choices … you really have to work at it to buy a bad thermoformed paddle. They went through an early bad patch where some of the thermoformed paddles plastic cores were crushing because of high heat manufacturing process, but that is mostly resolved.

I'm kinda disappointed pickleball warehouse doesn't have a good demo program like other places. So I demoed 5 paddles from two other sites. Excited to try them.

I wanted to demo the new babolat strkr paddle just because the color and it kinda goes with my Pure Strike VS tennis racquet but nobody had it available to demo.

 

[Casey 1988]

So I bought a Red Wilson Tour Pro from total pickleball during covid around 2020 I think it may have been. It sat in my car for about 3-4 years (not everyday, just most of hte time). I brought it with me on road trips just incase I wanted to play. I ended up not playing for about 3 years.

I recently got back into it and hitting tennis balls after my eye surgery. I'm a tennis coach, and hit with higher level guys in tennis regularly. So tennis is always going to be my first priority.

But I have enjoyed playing pickle recently socially with beginners at open events, and even more fun with other tennis players who play pickle (we stick out like a sorethumb and it's obvious we're tennis players because we just play the game so differently).

My brother wants to start playing, since his boss at his department has invited the staff to play every other Saturday morning. My brother used to play USTA tennis years ago, probably a 3.5 at best, and has spent more time playing golf these days. I let him borrow my Wilson paddle and he said he enjoyed playing with his co-workers and he wants to play with me regularly.

So now I'm just considering giving him my Wilson and buying a new paddle, since I might actually want to enter some pickle tournaments eventually.

I haven't kept up with the new paddle technology. I only bought the Wilson Tour Pro years ago because I've used Wilson Pro Staff tennis racquets for years (and Babolat as well). I noticed the tennis big dogs (Wilson, Babolat, Head, Yonex) aren't the big players in the paddle industry like they are with tennis racquets.

So if I'm serious about buying a "modern" paddle, what brands are the gold standard right now? The ones featured on pickleball-warehouse? Joola, Six-Zero, Selkirk, Gearbox are the "featured" top brands.

I still have a sense of brand loyalty to Wilson/Babolat and wouldn't be opposed to buying one of their paddles. But if Joola is where it's at, and it's that big of a difference maker on court, then I'll give it a try. Money isn't an issue, so I don't need to get a budget paddle.

I keep seeing ProKennex pop up everywhere in Pickleball with Ace models.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I'm kinda disappointed pickleball warehouse doesn't have a good demo program like other places. So I demoed 5 paddles from two other sites. Excited to try them.

I wanted to demo the new babolat strkr paddle just because the color and it kinda goes with my Pure Strike VS tennis racquet but nobody had it available to demo.

I forgot to mention something that might be relevant for you coming from tennis. Spin has increased significantly with paddles (still not strings ) but paddle surfaces degrade over time which reduces the spin. With the spray on grit of paddles like Selkirk, this can be weeks. With the carbon and kevlar paddles with outer peel ply resin, the spin degrades in months (obviously depending on how much you play). Paddle manufacturers have more color and design options with spray on grit, it’s why Selkirk paddles look so good.

Yep … I have found it frustrating we don’t have the same tennis racket demoing with paddles. A few manufacturers let you try a paddle and send it back … you probably pay the shipping. I think Engage is one. Also … won’t name the competitor, but largest pickleball retailer let’s you try for 30 days and can return, you pay shipping. I haven’t ever bought a paddle from them.

fyi … the tennis racket brands aren’t at the top of most popular and highly rated brands. They might be one day considering their size and experience, but not now. I never see a Head or Babolat paddle at the two places I play, so have had no chance to hit them. Hayworth (pro) just beat the #1 and #2 pros in singles with a Babolat … maybe I will start seeing them.

These are typically the most common paddles I see in rec play:

- Joola
- Selkirk
- Engage
- Vatic Pro
- Legacy
- Six Zero
- Ronbus
- CRBN
- Volair

more … but that’s what comes to mind

 

[MasturB]

I forgot to mention something that might be relevant for you coming from tennis. Spin has increased significantly with paddles (still not strings ) but paddle surfaces degrade over time which reduces the spin. With the spray on grit of paddles like Selkirk, this can be weeks. With the carbon and kevlar paddles with outer peel ply resin, the spin degrades in months (obviously depending on how much you play). Paddle manufacturers have more color and design options with spray on grit, it’s why Selkirk paddles look so good.

Yep … I have found it frustrating we don’t have the same tennis racket demoing with paddles. A few manufacturers let you try a paddle and send it back … you probably pay the shipping. I think Engage is one. Also … won’t name the competitor, but largest pickleball retailer let’s you try for 30 days and can return, you pay shipping. I haven’t ever bought a paddle from them.

fyi … the tennis racket brands aren’t at the top of most popular and highly rated brands. They might be one day considering their size and experience, but not now. I never see a Head or Babolat paddle at the two places I play, so have had no chance to hit them. Hayworth (pro) just beat the #1 and #2 pros in singles with a Babolat … maybe I will start seeing them.

These are typically the most common paddles I see in rec play:

- Joola
- Selkirk
- Engage
- Vatic Pro
- Legacy
- Six Zero
- Ronbus
- CRBN
- Volair

more … but that’s what comes to mind

When the pickleball trend first exploded at the club I worked at, Head paddles were very common.

I'm honestly shocked the big tennis dogs didn't see this exploding and get out ahead of the competition since they have way more resources than the smaller and newer companies. I'd imagine the margins are very high on paddles compared to racquets.

Interesting about the Babolat guy.

 

[ByeByePoly]

When the pickleball trend first exploded at the club I worked at, Head paddles were very common.

I'm honestly shocked the big tennis dogs didn't see this exploding and get out ahead of the competition since they have way more resources than the smaller and newer companies. I'd imagine the margins are very high on paddles compared to racquets.

Interesting about the Babolat guy.

I have been very surprised also about the big racquet brands pretty much not making a dent. John Kew (youtube channel) was invited to the Babolat location in Colorado and discussed it on one of his podcasts. I got the impression Babolat is making a serious effort now. It will be a relief if paddles get quality full mold racquet grips rather than the current attached pallet bs now.

 

[Bisquick]

I think Rafa Hewett plays an Adidas Paddle - no idea where one would purchase one.

Head, wilson and Babolat are dabbling. Pro Kennex paddles are quite good.

And just to add - them fees for paddle certification that are supposed to be coming in ($100k) may push brands which don’t have the deep pockets out of the market.

 

[Casey 1988]

When the pickleball trend first exploded at the club I worked at, Head paddles were very common.

I'm honestly shocked the big tennis dogs didn't see this exploding and get out ahead of the competition since they have way more resources than the smaller and newer companies. I'd imagine the margins are very high on paddles compared to racquets.

Interesting about the Babolat guy.

I would be more surprised if top Badminton brands did not get into Pickleball, brands in Badminton can only go so far and prices are much lower then a Tennis racquet because of how little material there is on a Badminton racquet. Also, brands more in Squash then even Racquetball as main sport/only sport I could see picking up into high end expensive Tennis racquets where the rich people who are older and living in high end active retirement villas have moved into Pickleball because of how small Squash market is, being mainly a rich person's version of Racquetball.

 

[treo]

Prince made paddles several years ago that were actually made by Paddletek and now they have exited the market. At the time, they sponsored the #1 female player Simone Jardim.

 

[bobleenov1963]

So you have played with two paddles? Which Joola?

A little over a year ago four companies (Vatic Pro, Six Zero, Ronbus, Legacy) disrupted the $250 paddle companies with better new tech (thermoformed) and sold them for $130-$180. Today you can buy a quality thermoformed paddle for $100-$150 that plays significantly better than the $250 Selkirks and Joolas from two years ago. It’s been a crazy 1-2 years in paddle tech and choices … you really have to work at it to buy a bad thermoformed paddle. They went through an early bad patch where some of the thermoformed paddles plastic cores were crushing because of high heat manufacturing process, but that is mostly resolved.

I am in a PB group of retirees and everyone in the group uses paddles from Joola, Selkirk, Proton, Gearbox, and ProKennex that are at least $250, and they let me use their paddle to try out for a couple days. I can say based on my opinon, all of them that are over $250 are good. You can't go wrong with any of them but I prefer Joola and Selkirk the most.

 

[socallefty]

Spin has increased significantly with paddles (still not strings ) but paddle surfaces degrade over time which reduces the spin. With the spray on grit of paddles like Selkirk, this can be weeks. With the carbon and kevlar paddles with outer peel ply resin, the spin degrades in months (obviously depending on how much you play).

One of my former tennis coaches is a pro pickleball player who has sponsorship for his equipment and clothes. He said that he can use his paddles only for one tournament and then has to change because the surface of the paddle deteriorates and it affects performance. I remember thinking that pickleball is expensive at higher levels if you have to change out $250 paddles that often. In tennis, you just restring often.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Prince made paddles several years ago that were actually made by Paddletek and now they have exited the market. At the time, they sponsored the #1 female player Simone Jardim.

Our first two paddles after our Amazon starters were Prince Response Pro … wife had pink, I had a green. They live in the closet now. Good graphite paddles, but I did not like the square handles. Once we both moved to Vatic Pro carbon paddles that was the end of graphite for us. At least as the outside layer … I liked the Hurache X+ with an internal graphite layer.

 

[ByeByePoly]

One of my former tennis coaches is a pro pickleball player who has sponsorship for his equipment and clothes. He said that he can use his paddles only for one tournament and then has to change because the surface of the paddle deteriorates and it affects performance. I remember thinking that pickleball is expensive at higher levels if you have to change out $250 paddles that often. In tennis, you just restring often.

Yeah … let’s say a rec player really cared about spin, and was willing to spend $600 a year on it. You could have a new $100ish paddle every 2 months, or you could have a new Selkirk or Joola every six months. No matter the price … peel ply layer over carbon and kevlar degrades at similar rates. And as I said … any paint grit (Selkirk) degrades even faster.

There are two companies selling something similar to table tennis skins, but they have got the spin at top tier yet.

Proton surface tech is a possible longer lasting spin (I hear rubbery feel rather than sandpaper) … we will see if they ever get the paddles to market.

Huge land grab war going on between USAP and pro pickleball big $, throw in a $200 million Joola lawsuit against USAP … and who knows if we will continue to see the paddle tech pace of the last 1-2 years.

Paddles are much more tradeoffs than tennis racquets, there is no simple price to quality fact. There is no string and tension modifications after purchase. You can add lead, but we know that is insignificant compared to strings and tension. One can’t say a $250 paddle is best at all aspects of pickleball … let’s say doubles. A $250 Selkirk Luxx is a control, dinking, reset master class … drives not so much. Some top paddles for drives can be too poppy in kitchen play.

 

[MasturB]

One of my former tennis coaches is a pro pickleball player who has sponsorship for his equipment and clothes. He said that he can use his paddles only for one tournament and then has to change because the surface of the paddle deteriorates and it affects performance. I remember thinking that pickleball is expensive at higher levels if you have to change out $250 paddles that often. In tennis, you just restring often.

Fortunately for him he has sponsorship and can get new paddles. I think thr profit margins on paddles are absurdly high. So it wouldn't surprised me if it doesn't cost as much for the companies to just give new paddles every week.

 

[FanofTennis1]

So I bought a Red Wilson Tour Pro from total pickleball during covid around 2020 I think it may have been. It sat in my car for about 3-4 years (not everyday, just most of hte time). I brought it with me on road trips just incase I wanted to play. I ended up not playing for about 3 years.

I recently got back into it and hitting tennis balls after my eye surgery. I'm a tennis coach, and hit with higher level guys in tennis regularly. So tennis is always going to be my first priority.

But I have enjoyed playing pickle recently socially with beginners at open events, and even more fun with other tennis players who play pickle (we stick out like a sorethumb and it's obvious we're tennis players because we just play the game so differently).

My brother wants to start playing, since his boss at his department has invited the staff to play every other Saturday morning. My brother used to play USTA tennis years ago, probably a 3.5 at best, and has spent more time playing golf these days. I let him borrow my Wilson paddle and he said he enjoyed playing with his co-workers and he wants to play with me regularly.

So now I'm just considering giving him my Wilson and buying a new paddle, since I might actually want to enter some pickle tournaments eventually.

I haven't kept up with the new paddle technology. I only bought the Wilson Tour Pro years ago because I've used Wilson Pro Staff tennis racquets for years (and Babolat as well). I noticed the tennis big dogs (Wilson, Babolat, Head, Yonex) aren't the big players in the paddle industry like they are with tennis racquets.

So if I'm serious about buying a "modern" paddle, what brands are the gold standard right now? The ones featured on pickleball-warehouse? Joola, Six-Zero, Selkirk, Gearbox are the "featured" top brands.

I still have a sense of brand loyalty to Wilson/Babolat and wouldn't be opposed to buying one of their paddles. But if Joola is where it's at, and it's that big of a difference maker on court, then I'll give it a try. Money isn't an issue, so I don't need to get a budget paddle.

Selkirk Halo. Thank me later.
Use ADV-BBURZYNSKI AT CHECKOUT FOR DISCOUNT!

 

[FanofTennis1]

A lot of people have been confused on selkirs paddles recently. I thought I would break it down

Use code ADV-BBURZYNSKI At checkout for 10-15% off and A FREE GIFTCARD which will show up about 7 days after order!

VANGUARD POWER AIR- best for high int-adv players as it has a lot of pop. Beginners may struggle with it.

Luxx- Best control paddle on the market best for dinks, as it is soft and very controllable. Best for int- adv

Amped pro air- in between luxx and vanguard, not much else to say. Thickness is in the middle and so is the power and control.

Vangurd Control- Alternative to luxx if you don't like 20 mm core and the edge less holed design.

SLK halo is the best paddle for its price, as IT IS AS GOOD AS THE PRO LEVEL PADDLES. great for high Beginner to advanced players.

All other SLK paddles are great for beginners to intermediate players.

Braden

 

[ByeByePoly]

There is no such thing as pro level paddles … there are paddles that pros get paid to play with.

 

[bobleenov1963]

A $250 Selkirk Luxx is a control, dinking, reset master class … drives not so much. Some top paddles for drives can be too poppy in kitchen play.

This is a very accurate observation, IMHO. My son, who is 22 years old, only plays single PB, says he likes the Joola Hyperion CFS PB paddle because it provides so much power than the $250 Selkirk. As you know, single PB is a completely different animal than double PB because single requires much more power and lot more side to side movement than double PB.

 

[ByeByePoly]

This is a very accurate observation, IMHO. My son, who is 22 years old, only plays single PB, says he likes the Joola Hyperion CFS PB paddle because it provides so much power than the $250 Selkirk. As you know, single PB is a completely different animal than double PB because single requires much more power and lot more side to side movement than double PB.

Yep … PB singles is a b.i.t.c.h … most tennis players would not guess this until they play it. Certainly surprised this ex-4.5 tournament tennis singles player.

fyi … Selkirk has power paddles also.

I’ve heard several pros say the increased spin has had a bigger impact on singles than power because of increased angles on passing shots, but now they have both. I actually think the power impacts the quality of the passing shot more than any baseline to baseline duel. With the small court dimensions and speed of the pros, particularly the men, and no heavy topspin ball like tennis, it’s not currently a baseline game like much of pro tennis. You can see it in Hayworth’s recent wins over Johns and Staksrud, it’s the laser passing shots that was the biggest difference.

 

[bobleenov1963]

Yep … PB singles is a b.i.t.c.h … most tennis players would not guess this until they play it. Certainly surprised this ex-4.5 tournament tennis singles player.

fyi … Selkirk has power paddles also.

I’ve heard several pros say the increased spin has had a bigger impact on singles than power because of increased angles on passing shots, but now they have both. I actually think the power impacts the quality of the passing shot more than any baseline to baseline duel. With the small court dimensions and speed of the pros, particularly the men, and no heavy topspin ball like tennis, it’s not currently a baseline game like much of pro tennis. You can see it in Hayworth’s recent wins over Johns and Staksrud, it’s the laser passing shots that was the biggest difference.

Agreed with you 99%... I still think that tennis much more physical demanding than PB. My son said that he could play 4 hours of single PB everyday and still feel physically fine. He wouldn't be able to do that playing single tennis. He would need one day to recover for every two days of playing tennis.

The new paddle provides so much more power, in addition to spin. Because of that, it makes passing shot such a lethal in single PB. Like you said, Haworth is the prime example of both power and spin.

 

[FanofTennis1]

Vanguard

Agreed with you 99%... I still think that tennis much more physical demanding than PB. My son said that he could play 4 hours of single PB everyday and still feel physically fine. He wouldn't be able to do that playing single tennis. He would need one day to recover for every two days of playing tennis.

The new paddle provides so much more power, in addition to spin. Because of that, it makes passing shot such a lethal in single PB. Like you said, Haworth is the prime example of both power and spin.

Vangurd power air or amped pro air would be good. Heard the gearbox pro power is good too
.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Agreed with you 99%... I still think that tennis much more physical demanding than PB. My son said that he could play 4 hours of single PB everyday and still feel physically fine. He wouldn't be able to do that playing single tennis. He would need one day to recover for every two days of playing tennis.

The new paddle provides so much more power, in addition to spin. Because of that, it makes passing shot such a lethal in single PB. Like you said, Haworth is the prime example of both power and spin.

Disclaimer … started pickleball at 65, now 66 … so factor that in on my observations of pb singles vs tennis singles effort.

My plan was to give some young non-tennis playing pickleball players some singles beat downs. This is how it went:

Three guys probably in there 30s, one in his 20s.

1) played a guy where I had significantly better strokes, and although he could outrun me, his strokes weren’t good enough to keep me from controlling the points with him doing most of the running. I did not get very tired.

2) I had better strokes, in tennis terms say I was 4.5 strokes and he was 3.5 strokes. In tennis this would almost mean an easy win without too much effort. Opponent did most of the running, and I could end points fairly quickly. Doesn’t work that way in pickleball, even pickleball singles ... the game is much more weighted towards defense. Tall athletic guy, ex-basketball, fast and never got winded. I could not control the points even with better strokes, and ex-s&v singles volleys. He won easily.

3) Had some tennis background… and I think soccer. Perhaps I had the better strokes, but let’s say 4.0 vs 4.5. Same as 2, some good tennis like points, didn’t force me to kitchen play like #2 above, same results … 11-4ish type losses.

4) 20 something … very fast (me in my 20s playing 4.5 tennis singles tournaments), no tennis background but good strokes for never playing tennis … 4.0ish. Same sad 11-4ish result.

I was more winded (the gasping for air type) in one game against 2,3 and 4 than most sets of tennis singles. Not sure I still understand it. I am agile and fast for 66 (like being the tallest midget ) … so obviously that’s part of it. But you will hear many pro pb players that came from tennis tell you pickleball singles is harder. I don’t think it matters which one is harder, not the same game and different endurance movement metrics. The point is pb singles at certain levels of play against certain competition is not what many tennis players that have never played are guessing.

And yes … there would be no greater exhaustion than playing Nadal in tennis where he decided to not hit winners and make you suffer. Even in rec tennis singles … I found it more tiring to play against constant baseline topspin for 2-3 hours in the summer heat. In tournaments I always hoped for the s&v opponent … one way or another the points at least ended. In pickleball singles … points can go on and on and on.

Note: I only play indoor pickleball … those exhausting single games were climate controlled … sad

 

[Injured Again]

Thought I would add onto this thread rather than start a new one. Long message incoming…

My tennis history is that I soon turn 63, and in the year that I turned 60 I was ranked in the top 100 nationally in 60 singles, and I am a 4.5. I had a left total knee replacement seven months ago and am moving better than any time in the last few years. My goal is to try to be a strong national contender when I can play the 65 singles in a couple of years.

My wife and I have owned a timeshare for the last couple of decades, and in the last five years all of the places we have stayed have had pickleball courts and equipment. So up until this year, the extent of my pickleball has been playing a half dozen times with my wife when at these timeshares, and maybe another couple of times with my son. My wife and I have always had great fun but never continued playing once we got home.

My tennis club converted one outdoor court to temporary pickleball when it was resurfaced last summer, and a number of parks have put up pickleball courts as well. My wife plays tennis maybe once a year but can still rally at 3.5 level after just a few minutes. Tennis is just not her thing but she seems to enjoy pickleball, and we have pretty amazing rallies despite very little playing experience.

This spring, she bought a pickleball set made by Mten, which had two paddles, four balls, and a carrying case for $40 from Amazon. We’re now playing somewhat regularly and improving quickly, though I always hit the ball back to her and I let her run me around. We only play singles.

My son has also been pickling with his friends and he purchased the same Mten paddle set. We played against each other competitively for the first time ever on Saturday. It was amazingly competitive and we basically used our tennis skills and court coverage to play some decent rallies, though we had no idea how to tactically and strategically play so we played it like tennis - hard groundstrokes into the corners and come into the net at the first short ball. We had some experienced pickleball players watch us and afterwards, I was asked how long I had been playing. When I told them less than 20 times in my life, they were pretty amazed. And more so when they saw the paddles we were using.

I got a couple of minutes to hit with one of their paddles and all I can say is there is no comparison. The sweet spot felt three times as large and the ball speed felt about 50% faster with the same swing, and spin generation was at least doubled. This person said I could probably compete at a very high level just because of my athletic capabilities compared to most 60 year olds.

So now I’m intrigued. Tennis is my main priority but my wife has taken an interest and I want to continue to play with her. We both struggle with the paddle being so short, and unknowingly struggled with how our paddles were so inferior. But these Mten paddles did their job in getting us involved with the game.

Some earlier posts in this thread talked about how long a player wanted to play tennis on a pickleball court as the reason why extended racquets are initially popular with those coming over from tennis. But I think that my wife and I are both going to play primarily singles for the exercise aspect so maybe an extended paddle is a good next step?

What would be a recommendation for a decent singles paddle for both of us, that’s below about $100? We don’t want to replace it every few months because the surface wears down and loses grip, so something durable is preferred. And cheaper is better because if we get hooked, then we will make the investment for a higher end paddle.

Also, I was told those balls that came with our set were terrible. Are there significant differences in higher end balls?

I’ve got so many more questions….

 

[ByeByePoly]

Thought I would add onto this thread rather than start a new one. Long message incoming…

My tennis history is that I soon turn 63, and in the year that I turned 60 I was ranked in the top 100 nationally in 60 singles, and I am a 4.5. I had a left total knee replacement seven months ago and am moving better than any time in the last few years. My goal is to try to be a strong national contender when I can play the 65 singles in a couple of years.

My wife and I have owned a timeshare for the last couple of decades, and in the last five years all of the places we have stayed have had pickleball courts and equipment. So up until this year, the extent of my pickleball has been playing a half dozen times with my wife when at these timeshares, and maybe another couple of times with my son. My wife and I have always had great fun but never continued playing once we got home.

My tennis club converted one outdoor court to temporary pickleball when it was resurfaced last summer, and a number of parks have put up pickleball courts as well. My wife plays tennis maybe once a year but can still rally at 3.5 level after just a few minutes. Tennis is just not her thing but she seems to enjoy pickleball, and we have pretty amazing rallies despite very little playing experience.

This spring, she bought a pickleball set made by Mten, which had two paddles, four balls, and a carrying case for $40 from Amazon. We’re now playing somewhat regularly and improving quickly, though I always hit the ball back to her and I let her run me around. We only play singles.

My son has also been pickling with his friends and he purchased the same Mten paddle set. We played against each other competitively for the first time ever on Saturday. It was amazingly competitive and we basically used our tennis skills and court coverage to play some decent rallies, though we had no idea how to tactically and strategically play so we played it like tennis - hard groundstrokes into the corners and come into the net at the first short ball. We had some experienced pickleball players watch us and afterwards, I was asked how long I had been playing. When I told them less than 20 times in my life, they were pretty amazed. And more so when they saw the paddles we were using.

I got a couple of minutes to hit with one of their paddles and all I can say is there is no comparison. The sweet spot felt three times as large and the ball speed felt about 50% faster with the same swing, and spin generation was at least doubled. This person said I could probably compete at a very high level just because of my athletic capabilities compared to most 60 year olds.

So now I’m intrigued. Tennis is my main priority but my wife has taken an interest and I want to continue to play with her. We both struggle with the paddle being so short, and unknowingly struggled with how our paddles were so inferior. But these Mten paddles did their job in getting us involved with the game.

Some earlier posts in this thread talked about how long a player wanted to play tennis on a pickleball court as the reason why extended racquets are initially popular with those coming over from tennis. But I think that my wife and I are both going to play primarily singles for the exercise aspect so maybe an extended paddle is a good next step?

What would be a recommendation for a decent singles paddle for both of us, that’s below about $100? We don’t want to replace it every few months because the surface wears down and loses grip, so something durable is preferred. And cheaper is better because if we get hooked, then we will make the investment for a higher end paddle.

Also, I was told those balls that came with our set were terrible. Are there significant differences in higher end balls?

I’ve got so many more questions….

My poor tennis bother … just put that paddle down and “run away” until you have ended your competitive tennis. The flip side is the knee replacement was the loud voice saying competitive tennis should end … which knowing you means tennis should end.

So … with that disclaimer … a bullet point response … could take pages.

- very few rec players play singles, it’s the opposite of tennis … doubles pickleball is significantly more fun
- having fun with wife playing pickleball … open play doubles with wife … I have for 18+ months … we never played tennis mixed doubles
- tennis singles skills are a fairly direct migration to singles pickleball … not so with pickleball doubles. You can get to intermediate pretty fast because of your tennis, but from there significant learning curve (kitchen)
- many good paddles $90-150 … extended fine for singles … once you play doubles kitchen skills determine wins against good teams much more than baseline. Many tennis players (this one) migrate to hybrid or standard because of dinking consistency and hand speed for firefights.
- you will want a paddle that adds spin, because that also means more control with ball slipping less on paddle surface … currently means carbon or kevlar layers, with outside resin peel ply layer. All have spin loss … but depends on play style and how often. Wife has played with one for a year and you can’t tell a difference. Longest I have played with a paddle was 5-6 months (I have a paddle buying problem ) , and it was still playing great and I hit hard with a lot of spin. I play 3 times a week … 6-9 hours total.

I can give you many paddle choices, and paddle reviewers … but I would start with revisiting that singles only plan. The quickest way to narrow the choice is 1) shape … and 2) power/pop.

 

[Injured Again]

@ByeByePoly Thanks so much for that post! It contains a wealth of information!

I’ve played some more over the past couple of days, including one session of doubles with some pickleball regulars. I got a crash course on how to hit a drop (is that what it’s called?) and was pretty successful on it, more so on the backhand side where I have a pretty good underspin tennis stroke, but was able to get the hang of it pretty quickly I think because my Mten paddle is so low powered.

My wife is interested in playing doubles so we’ve been practicing some of this techniques. She was not a volleyer in tennis so she needs to learn that for pickleball, but she has good groundstrokes.

We’ll have to play more and then see where this goes. We like the singles because we can do it competently and understand more of the strategy whereas we both feel we have a lot to learn to play doubles.

I think we’ll probably spring for some new paddles soon if we decide to join a club that has indoor courts. Our ability to play outdoors won’t last more than another three months so if we take a winter pickleball hiatus, we’ll wait until next year.

Thanks again for the info!

 

[ByeByePoly]

@ByeByePoly Thanks so much for that post! It contains a wealth of information!

I’ve played some more over the past couple of days, including one session of doubles with some pickleball regulars. I got a crash course on how to hit a drop (is that what it’s called?) and was pretty successful on it, more so on the backhand side where I have a pretty good underspin tennis stroke, but was able to get the hang of it pretty quickly I think because my Mten paddle is so low powered.

My wife is interested in playing doubles so we’ve been practicing some of this techniques. She was not a volleyer in tennis so she needs to learn that for pickleball, but she has good groundstrokes.

We’ll have to play more and then see where this goes. We like the singles because we can do it competently and understand more of the strategy whereas we both feel we have a lot to learn to play doubles.

I think we’ll probably spring for some new paddles soon if we decide to join a club that has indoor courts. Our ability to play outdoors won’t last more than another three months so if we take a winter pickleball hiatus, we’ll wait until next year.

Thanks again for the info!

Called 3rd shot drop … goal in doubles is get to kitchen line as fast as possible. Example … never stay back after ros.

Both drive and drop are valid 3rd shots, but goal with drop is to get easier drop with 5th or if lucky get all the way to kitchen after 3rd shot drop. Your level is capped without 3rd shot drop … you can play 5.0 with no drive and good drop. Game gives advantage (significant) to returning team. You can’t bang through even good intermediate teams from baseline. PB rules are evil genius at nullifying tennis skills in doubles, particularly server having to wait for bounce and kitchen keeping you from closing tight to net.

PB volleys are a different beast than tennis volleys. Everything is a hit/punch … no strings and rubber ball rebound. At kitchen often no time for body rotation so much of kitchen play is nipples to the net arming. Have to learn bizarre backhand punch with shoulders square to net.

Learn to take opponent dinks out of air (volley) if there. As a tennis player you will fight this … you will want to step back. Later you might step back to speedup from higher bounce, but trust me on planting seed in your head of taking dinks out of air when you can. I still fight against tennis instincts … hard to deprogram tennis.

If you end up getting serious about pb … and knowing you it will happen 2nd week … search for “John Cincola Pickleball” youtube channel. One of the best for instruction.

Enjoy … don’t feed the smash

 

[Injured Again]

We’re definitely going to be buying some new paddles and balls!

I’ve played a few more times against my son in singles and he is now decisively beating me even though I know I have improved a lot. I can’t cover the court well enough to make good shots if he gets me running, and we both volley well enough that putting the ball away when we have time is practically a sure thing. I think we are both probably making a winning passing shot 50% of the time, off either forehand or backhand, if we have time to set up and swing.

It has become unlikely that we can serve with enough speed to generate anything more than the occasional error. And we’re finding that if we return hard and fast but down the middle, we are both pretty much in trouble because we can’t get up to the kitchen fast enough. Our hard returns are just rushing ourselves rather than each other because we can hit drives off both sides well. It seems much better to float a ball deep and give ourselves time to get uptight to the kitchen. 90 minutes of nonstop singles pickleball is quite a workout for an old guy with a knee replacement, especially since the ball bounces so low and the paddle is so short that I can’t really cheat by being more upright. It’s either bend the knees deeply or I’m not making contact with the ball. Fortunately, this has carried over to my tennis game so my footwork is improving there.

I’ve played doubles a couple of times with experienced players. The dinking has come fairly easily but I don’t understand well how to gain an advantage when we are all up there. I was the best tennis player and that carried over to me being the best at hitting drives and volleys. It was the tactical side where I had the challenges, and the ball comes at angles that I’m not used to in tennis or singles PB, so I don’t have good competence redirecting that angle and knowing what to do with it.

Back to the original topic - I got to try some higher end paddles and there is so much difference. I feel like the sweet spot is twice as large, I can generate twice the spin, and it has at least 50% more power. A paddle like that makes the game so much easier. Then on top of that, the cheap balls that were included in our paddle kit bounce just as high as a high end ball when dropped, but the high end balls bounce higher and further when in play, and that also makes the game a lot easier.

The difference between my paddle and a high end paddle feels like two or three times the difference between a wood racquet and a modern racquet. But without access to an indoor pickleball facility and our outdoor weather probably not holding out much more than another few months, I’ll probably wait until next spring before buying a new paddle. I saw one with replaceable face sheets and that sounds appealing.

I ordered some Franklin balls because they were rated well and couldn’t be anything but much better than what we’re using. Is there much difference in high end balls?

 

[ByeByePoly]

We’re definitely going to be buying some new paddles and balls!

I’ve played a few more times against my son in singles and he is now decisively beating me even though I know I have improved a lot. I can’t cover the court well enough to make good shots if he gets me running, and we both volley well enough that putting the ball away when we have time is practically a sure thing. I think we are both probably making a winning passing shot 50% of the time, off either forehand or backhand, if we have time to set up and swing.

It has become unlikely that we can serve with enough speed to generate anything more than the occasional error. And we’re finding that if we return hard and fast but down the middle, we are both pretty much in trouble because we can’t get up to the kitchen fast enough. Our hard returns are just rushing ourselves rather than each other because we can hit drives off both sides well. It seems much better to float a ball deep and give ourselves time to get uptight to the kitchen. 90 minutes of nonstop singles pickleball is quite a workout for an old guy with a knee replacement, especially since the ball bounces so low and the paddle is so short that I can’t really cheat by being more upright. It’s either bend the knees deeply or I’m not making contact with the ball. Fortunately, this has carried over to my tennis game so my footwork is improving there.

I’ve played doubles a couple of times with experienced players. The dinking has come fairly easily but I don’t understand well how to gain an advantage when we are all up there. I was the best tennis player and that carried over to me being the best at hitting drives and volleys. It was the tactical side where I had the challenges, and the ball comes at angles that I’m not used to in tennis or singles PB, so I don’t have good competence redirecting that angle and knowing what to do with it.

Back to the original topic - I got to try some higher end paddles and there is so much difference. I feel like the sweet spot is twice as large, I can generate twice the spin, and it has at least 50% more power. A paddle like that makes the game so much easier. Then on top of that, the cheap balls that were included in our paddle kit bounce just as high as a high end ball when dropped, but the high end balls bounce higher and further when in play, and that also makes the game a lot easier.

The difference between my paddle and a high end paddle feels like two or three times the difference between a wood racquet and a modern racquet. But without access to an indoor pickleball facility and our outdoor weather probably not holding out much more than another few months, I’ll probably wait until next spring before buying a new paddle. I saw one with replaceable face sheets and that sounds appealing.

I ordered some Franklin balls because they were rated well and couldn’t be anything but much better than what we’re using. Is there much difference in high end balls?

If you end up playing doubles regularly against good intermediate and up … you won’t want to play singles anymore. Doubles firefights is peak pickleball joy.

Yep … deep off pace returns works in your favor. Also running/moving through your return … even on half volley returns.

We play x-40 indoors at Lifetime … but they just created their own ball so no doubt that is what they will start providing. In general … all pickleballs are crap … some worse than others. Some get soft, some crack, some get out of round. x-40 is one of those that gets soft, particularly outside in the summer heat. I only play indoors and x-40 has been fine.

Picking a paddle is full of tradeoffs (particularly doubles) we never had to think about with tennis racquets. Imagine we wanted a different racquet at the net, and a different one at the baseline … and different racquets for singles and doubles. It’s actually worse than that … but that gives you some idea.

Singles paddle … heavier, power (not too much that forces you to shorten/adapt your drives), spin (key in passing shots).

Doubles paddle:

I thought of this the other day … I think broad doubles paddle trade off categories:

1) paddle that you are best with at baseline, good enough at transition and kitchen
2) paddle that you are best with at kitchen, good enough at transition and baseline
3) split the difference between 1 and 2, good at all but not best at all

My doubles paddle journey has been 1 -> 3 -> 2

In good doubles, kitchen skills and transition skills generally determine the winner. Get both of you to net more often than opponents, and be good when you get there. You can bang through lower levels (most fun pickleball ), but your tennis forehand drive doesn’t bother two good intermediate players that are good block volleying at kitchen.

The stick on replaceable paddle surface is a move in the right direction. The problem is they aren’t there yet matching the max spin paddles. So for players like me putting spin highest on my list, I wouldn’t do it. My $117 Spartus Apollo got 2300 rpm with some reviewers, I’ve heard 2000 rpm for Reload replacements. Figure paddles lose 100 rpm a month for heavy users (less for me at 3 times a week), I will just buy new Apollo (or whatever is best new cheaper tech) that is available. That’s the other thing … tech is changing so fast that lifetime warranty on $250+ paddle is useless for us paddle nerds … my lifetime needs so far on paddles has been 2 months. Also … currently going the replaceable route means locking into a paddle. In tennis, we replace the parts that wear out by restringing. IMO … with paddles that will be both surface and core plug and play replacement … that plastic core crap in the center also wears out. Someday pickleball will evolve past it’s current plastic era.

There are great paddles now at $90-120 … more than enough to find out if you will stick with game.

$90 … Vatic Pro Prism (both elongated and hybrid), foam edge not thermoformed
$90 … 11six24 Jelly Bean, standard wide shape, foam edge not thermoformed
$100 for two ($50 each), Friday thermoformed extended paddles, not carbon/peel ply surface so spin will wear out faster, but who cares at $50

Watch some paddle reviewer youtube channels to understand tradeoffs.

If you just want a good start, and going to be playing both singles and doubles, just go buy the Vatic Pro Prism Extended. You hit hard enough, you won’t need the thermoformed. I have the Vatic Pro Prism hybrid, which is less swing weight and better for doubles, great spin. You could use it for singles, but would want to put lead tape on it.

Or … you could … Run Away … avoid the pickleball virus … long pickleball is a biaaaaatch.

 

[ByeByePoly]

We’re definitely going to be buying some new paddles and balls!

I’ve played a few more times against my son in singles and he is now decisively beating me even though I know I have improved a lot. I can’t cover the court well enough to make good shots if he gets me running, and we both volley well enough that putting the ball away when we have time is practically a sure thing. I think we are both probably making a winning passing shot 50% of the time, off either forehand or backhand, if we have time to set up and swing.

It has become unlikely that we can serve with enough speed to generate anything more than the occasional error. And we’re finding that if we return hard and fast but down the middle, we are both pretty much in trouble because we can’t get up to the kitchen fast enough. Our hard returns are just rushing ourselves rather than each other because we can hit drives off both sides well. It seems much better to float a ball deep and give ourselves time to get uptight to the kitchen. 90 minutes of nonstop singles pickleball is quite a workout for an old guy with a knee replacement, especially since the ball bounces so low and the paddle is so short that I can’t really cheat by being more upright. It’s either bend the knees deeply or I’m not making contact with the ball. Fortunately, this has carried over to my tennis game so my footwork is improving there.

I’ve played doubles a couple of times with experienced players. The dinking has come fairly easily but I don’t understand well how to gain an advantage when we are all up there. I was the best tennis player and that carried over to me being the best at hitting drives and volleys. It was the tactical side where I had the challenges, and the ball comes at angles that I’m not used to in tennis or singles PB, so I don’t have good competence redirecting that angle and knowing what to do with it.

Back to the original topic - I got to try some higher end paddles and there is so much difference. I feel like the sweet spot is twice as large, I can generate twice the spin, and it has at least 50% more power. A paddle like that makes the game so much easier. Then on top of that, the cheap balls that were included in our paddle kit bounce just as high as a high end ball when dropped, but the high end balls bounce higher and further when in play, and that also makes the game a lot easier.

The difference between my paddle and a high end paddle feels like two or three times the difference between a wood racquet and a modern racquet. But without access to an indoor pickleball facility and our outdoor weather probably not holding out much more than another few months, I’ll probably wait until next spring before buying a new paddle. I saw one with replaceable face sheets and that sounds appealing.

I ordered some Franklin balls because they were rated well and couldn’t be anything but much better than what we’re using. Is there much difference in high end balls?

This guy gives good advice … one of the channels I follow. Ironic timing of his video … he just made some of the same comments I did. fyi … J2K (more expensive cousin to J2 he mentions) gets rave reviews, but I haven’t hit it. I think $135ish with discount code.

Tickle My Pickleball

Pickleball Paddle Review Channel where I like to show gameplay of the paddles as I talk about them. Feel free to shoot me an e-mail if you have any paddle questions or want me to take a look at a paddle for you. Ticklemypickleball35@gmail.com Use Discount Code: DMVPBALL for a discount off your...

www.youtube.com

 

[Injured Again]

If you end up playing doubles regularly against good intermediate and up … you won’t want to play singles anymore. Doubles firefights is peak pickleball joy.

Yep … deep off pace returns works in your favor. Also running/moving through your return … even on half volley returns.

We play x-40 indoors at Lifetime … but they just created their own ball so no doubt that is what they will start providing. In general … all pickleballs are crap … some worse than others. Some get soft, some crack, some get out of round. x-40 is one of those that gets soft, particularly outside in the summer heat. I only play indoors and x-40 has been fine.

Picking a paddle is full of tradeoffs (particularly doubles) we never had to think about with tennis racquets. Imagine we wanted a different racquet at the net, and a different one at the baseline … and different racquets for singles and doubles. It’s actually worse than that … but that gives you some idea.

Singles paddle … heavier, power (not too much that forces you to shorten/adapt your drives), spin (key in passing shots).

Doubles paddle:

I thought of this the other day … I think broad doubles paddle trade off categories:

1) paddle that you are best with at baseline, good enough at transition and kitchen
2) paddle that you are best with at kitchen, good enough at transition and baseline
3) split the difference between 1 and 2, good at all but not best at all

My doubles paddle journey has been 1 -> 3 -> 2

In good doubles, kitchen skills and transition skills generally determine the winner. Get both of you to net more often than opponents, and be good when you get there. You can bang through lower levels (most fun pickleball ), but your tennis forehand drive doesn’t bother two good intermediate players that are good block volleying at kitchen.

The stick on replaceable paddle surface is a move in the right direction. The problem is they aren’t there yet matching the max spin paddles. So for players like me putting spin highest on my list, I wouldn’t do it. My $117 Spartus Apollo got 2300 rpm with some reviewers, I’ve heard 2000 rpm for Reload replacements. Figure paddles lose 100 rpm a month for heavy users (less for me at 3 times a week), I will just buy new Apollo (or whatever is best new cheaper tech) that is available. That’s the other thing … tech is changing so fast that lifetime warranty on $250+ paddle is useless for us paddle nerds … my lifetime needs so far on paddles has been 2 months. Also … currently going the replaceable route means locking into a paddle. In tennis, we replace the parts that wear out by restringing. IMO … with paddles that will be both surface and core plug and play replacement … that plastic core crap in the center also wears out. Someday pickleball will evolve past it’s current plastic era.

There are great paddles now at $90-120 … more than enough to find out if you will stick with game.

$90 … Vatic Pro Prism (both elongated and hybrid), foam edge not thermoformed
$90 … 11six24 Jelly Bean, standard wide shape, foam edge not thermoformed
$100 for two ($50 each), Friday thermoformed extended paddles, not carbon/peel ply surface so spin will wear out faster, but who cares at $50

Watch some paddle reviewer youtube channels to understand tradeoffs.

If you just want a good start, and going to be playing both singles and doubles, just go buy the Vatic Pro Prism Extended. You hit hard enough, you won’t need the thermoformed. I have the Vatic Pro Prism hybrid, which is less swing weight and better for doubles, great spin. You could use it for singles, but would want to put lead tape on it.

Or … you could … Run Away … avoid the pickleball virus … long pickleball is a biaaaaatch.

So far, the firefights are a lot of fun, but what isn't fun is the dinking to get there. Never having been a tennis player with much touch, a lot of this skillset is lost on me and I don't get a thrill from a deftly executed dink (not that I have many deftly executed dinks). Because I have a low-grip paddle surface, it's hard to get much spin on the ball to get it up and down if I'm standing at the kitchen line. Most effective seems to be going right down the middle, which is something that's the norm in tennis also. So far, people seem to have significantly faster reactions to balls at them rather than their ability to move to cover a ball right down the middle or off to the side. Just in general, that seems to be the case that hitting a ball within reach is kind of a losing proposition because the paddle is so short and light that it's easy to make contact. Whereas anything that requires my opponent to move their feet and relies on whole-body athletiticism is way more effective.

I'm starting to get the hang of running through the return of serve. Where I've had problems in singles is being on the baseline or even into the court during a rally. The courts have so little room between the back fence and the baseline, and I can sense the proximity of the back fence so I tend to stay at least 6-8 feet away from it, which is unfortunately on or inside the baseline. I then get into big problems when a ball comes deep and hard. Playing with my age group peers, there's a lot less ball speed and so even deep shots give me enough time to either go forward and hit them in the air, or to get back and give it a good whack. But my son can rush me and a lot of his shots bounce a couple of feet inside the baseline, right where my feet are.

So three years ago, I switched tennis racquets to be able to play better defense, and gave up some offensive hitting capability to get it. After a lot of reflection, I realized this was worth it as it brought up my level against those opponents who matter the most to me. I'm way too early in my pickleball playing to be able to make that same kind of decision based on experience. It "feels" like I would do better with a very low powered paddle like I now have because I'm used to being able to generate some sort of swing even when I'm in bad position and at those times, I still manage to hit the ball long if I put too much air under it. I would like a larger sweet spot and because I typically mis-hit high on the face, it feels like an extended version would be better for the here and now. And of course, more spin the better. Your paddle recommendations are so very appreciated. And of course, you are right. At those prices, I wouldn't feel bad trying a different paddle in a year if it just doesn't suit me.

Singles pickleball tomorrow with the missus! I need to get her some good tennis shoes - she's been using an old pair of Nikes that I think are pretty much past their prime cushioning.

Thanks again for taking the time to help!

 

[ByeByePoly]

So far, the firefights are a lot of fun, but what isn't fun is the dinking to get there. Never having been a tennis player with much touch, a lot of this skillset is lost on me and I don't get a thrill from a deftly executed dink (not that I have many deftly executed dinks). Because I have a low-grip paddle surface, it's hard to get much spin on the ball to get it up and down if I'm standing at the kitchen line. Most effective seems to be going right down the middle, which is something that's the norm in tennis also. So far, people seem to have significantly faster reactions to balls at them rather than their ability to move to cover a ball right down the middle or off to the side. Just in general, that seems to be the case that hitting a ball within reach is kind of a losing proposition because the paddle is so short and light that it's easy to make contact. Whereas anything that requires my opponent to move their feet and relies on whole-body athletiticism is way more effective.

I'm starting to get the hang of running through the return of serve. Where I've had problems in singles is being on the baseline or even into the court during a rally. The courts have so little room between the back fence and the baseline, and I can sense the proximity of the back fence so I tend to stay at least 6-8 feet away from it, which is unfortunately on or inside the baseline. I then get into big problems when a ball comes deep and hard. Playing with my age group peers, there's a lot less ball speed and so even deep shots give me enough time to either go forward and hit them in the air, or to get back and give it a good whack. But my son can rush me and a lot of his shots bounce a couple of feet inside the baseline, right where my feet are.

So three years ago, I switched tennis racquets to be able to play better defense, and gave up some offensive hitting capability to get it. After a lot of reflection, I realized this was worth it as it brought up my level against those opponents who matter the most to me. I'm way too early in my pickleball playing to be able to make that same kind of decision based on experience. It "feels" like I would do better with a very low powered paddle like I now have because I'm used to being able to generate some sort of swing even when I'm in bad position and at those times, I still manage to hit the ball long if I put too much air under it. I would like a larger sweet spot and because I typically mis-hit high on the face, it feels like an extended version would be better for the here and now. And of course, more spin the better. Your paddle recommendations are so very appreciated. And of course, you are right. At those prices, I wouldn't feel bad trying a different paddle in a year if it just doesn't suit me.

Singles pickleball tomorrow with the missus! I need to get her some good tennis shoes - she's been using an old pair of Nikes that I think are pretty much past their prime cushioning.

Thanks again for taking the time to help!

MTEN are fiberglass. We had Prince Response Pro fiberglass paddles that had good feel, but didn’t grip the ball. We both switched to Vatic Pro carbon fiber … and it was a huge difference.

Sweet spots … the shorter/fatter standard shape paddles have the biggest sweet spots, and best twist weight, but less near tip than extended. Hybrids usually have good sweet spots. Extended longer but narrower sweet spot, more toward tip. The thermoformed (carbon edged) paddles help with balls hit near edges. I didn’t use lead weight with racquets, but it can help with paddles and that is all we have (no strings and tension change).

Your kitchen speedups will improve with more gritty paddle surface. Also dinks … but you can overdue trying to spin in initial dinking learning curve. I was quite proud of myself early on hitting dinks with my tennis one handed backhand slice at the kitchen, until I realized many of those balls we high enough to put away. DOH!!!

 

[Injured Again]

MTEN are fiberglass. We had Prince Response Pro fiberglass paddles that had good feel, but didn’t grip the ball. We both switched to Vatic Pro carbon fiber … and it was a huge difference.

Sweet spots … the shorter/fatter standard shape paddles have the biggest sweet spots, and best twist weight, but less near tip than extended. Hybrids usually have good sweet spots. Extended longer but narrower sweet spot, more toward tip. The thermoformed (carbon edged) paddles help with balls hit near edges. I didn’t use lead weight with racquets, but it can help with paddles and that is all we have (no strings and tension change).

Your kitchen speedups will improve with more gritty paddle surface. Also dinks … but you can overdue trying to spin in initial dinking learning curve. I was quite proud of myself early on hitting dinks with my tennis one handed backhand slice at the kitchen, until I realized many of those balls we high enough to put away. DOH!!!

I don’t find myself mis-hitting off to the sides much. It’s 90% that I will contact the ball on the long axis of the paddle surface but the top two inches of the Mten are really dead, with so little response the ball doesn’t usually make it over the net.

I played table tennis in my teens and had a highest rank in the top 500 in the nation at one point. I’m comfortable flicking my wrist to generate topspin on the backhand and that’s a shot that seems to surprise the pickleball players I’ve hit with. Once I turn sideways on my backhand side though, I use basically a tennis backhand, with a long and mostly straight-armed swing, an eastern grip, and minimal wrist involvement. Everyone who has seen me play pickleball says that backhand clearly says I’m a tennis player. They also say that helps them to know what strategy to use against me too. On the forehand, my speedups are almost always flat and harder than my backhand side, and I hit my strong eastern grip tennis forehand.

The biggest question in my mind is how to play dinks at the net. I’ve watched Pickleball TV but am not sure I truly understand what I’m seeing. The pros almost hit topspin dinks on their forehands and backspin dinks if they have a OHBH, or a flat shovel-type shot if they use two hands. Since I assume there’s an even greater bias towards or on forehands in pickleball than tennis, that topspin dinks are more effective because that’s what people choose to use on their stronger wing. Yet underspin backhand dinks seem to have finer height control and don’t result as often in giving their opponents a ball to whack away at. I seem to be able to hit both underspin and topspin dinks with equally bad competency on my forehand so which do I choose? It’s almost easier to dink with underspin on both sides because it’s just like a volley and I can use just a continental. I can’t hit topspin on the forehand without getting to near an eastern grip and not being able to have my off hand on the throat to help with grip changes seems to make just using a continental simpler.

I was also told by one of the pickleball players to try to have my ball well into the descent as it crosses the net on a dink. I kind of went at it that I would try to rush my opponent as much as possible so I hit the ball as fast as I could with the apex of height right at the net. When I tried to hit the ball so it was dropping as it crossed the net,mit seemed to be a much less difficult ball for my opponent to return.

I think it’s pretty obvious from my questions that I am a real beginner at pickleball. It feels like there are so many foundational things I don’t know, or the foundational things are different than in tennis and I don’t realize that yet either. What I think I need most is to scour YouTube for a “If you are a tennis player, this is what you need to know to fast track getting competent at pickleball.”

 

[Injured Again]

On that last note, a couple of other extremely basic rule questions (equipment questions will be in the next post). Can a serve land in the kitchen, and do you play lets on serves?

 

[ByeByePoly]

I don’t find myself mis-hitting off to the sides much. It’s 90% that I will contact the ball on the long axis of the paddle surface but the top two inches of the Mten are really dead, with so little response the ball doesn’t usually make it over the net.

you will start hitting less often near the tip … you are used to 27” racquet

I played table tennis in my teens and had a highest rank in the top 500 in the nation at one point. I’m comfortable flicking my wrist to generate topspin on the backhand and that’s a shot that seems to surprise the pickleball players I’ve hit with. Once I turn sideways on my backhand side though, I use basically a tennis backhand, with a long and mostly straight-armed swing, an eastern grip, and minimal wrist involvement. Everyone who has seen me play pickleball says that backhand clearly says I’m a tennis player. They also say that helps them to know what strategy to use against me too. On the forehand, my speedups are almost always flat and harder than my backhand side, and I hit my strong eastern grip tennis forehand.

Top 500 table tennis is awesome … I am bowing in your direction now.

Kitchen is played mainly square to net without body rotation, and with arm movements that facilitate getting paddle back to ready position quickly. In a firefight there is no time for body rotation and big swings/follow through. Flicks and rolls are essential kitchen shots … your table tennis will serve you well. On rolls let the paddle tip drop like the modern tennis forehand.

You can use your tennis strokes from baseline, judgement call if you want/need to shorten strokes. I reduced my 1hbh prep (letting paddle drop behind me), but other than that full tennis strokes. 1hbh slice is weird coming from tennis … if you use same high to low swing path ball bounces before the net. I use 1hbh slice return of serve a lot, and you can hit it where you have plenty of time to get to kitchen.

The biggest question in my mind is how to play dinks at the net. I’ve watched Pickleball TV but am not sure I truly understand what I’m seeing. The pros almost hit topspin dinks on their forehands and backspin dinks if they have a OHBH, or a flat shovel-type shot if they use two hands. Since I assume there’s an even greater bias towards or on forehands in pickleball than tennis, that topspin dinks are more effective because that’s what people choose to use on their stronger wing. Yet underspin backhand dinks seem to have finer height control and don’t result as often in giving their opponents a ball to whack away at. I seem to be able to hit both underspin and topspin dinks with equally bad competency on my forehand so which do I choose? It’s almost easier to dink with underspin on both sides because it’s just like a volley and I can use just a continental. I can’t hit topspin on the forehand without getting to near an eastern grip and not being able to have my off hand on the throat to help with grip changes seems to make just using a continental simpler.

Do yourself a favor and forget about spin on dinks for now. You have a major learning curve ahead of you on fundamentals which are just whack for a tennis player. Try and take wrist out of dinks, arm movement hinging from shoulder. Dinks to opponents kitchen line are better than one with spin short. Add spin after you are good without it.

I was also told by one of the pickleball players to try to have my ball well into the descent as it crosses the net on a dink. I kind of went at it that I would try to rush my opponent as much as possible so I hit the ball as fast as I could with the apex of height right at the net. When I tried to hit the ball so it was dropping as it crossed the net,mit seemed to be a much less difficult ball for my opponent to return.

That is wrong for dinks, but good advice for 3rd shot drops from baseline.

I think it’s pretty obvious from my questions that I am a real beginner at pickleball. It feels like there are so many foundational things I don’t know, or the foundational things are different than in tennis and I don’t realize that yet either. What I think I need most is to scour YouTube for a “If you are a tennis player, this is what you need to know to fast track getting competent at pickleball.”

Watch Cincola’s videos … some of the best.

 

[ByeByePoly]

On that last note, a couple of other extremely basic rule questions (equipment questions will be in the next post). Can a serve land in the kitchen, and do you play lets on serves?

Serve can’t land in kitchen or on kitchen line.

Rec players play lets, pros replay.

Bonus newbie stuff:

- if you volley behind kitchen line and your momentum takes you into kitchen you lose the point

- you get to step in kitchen to dink if ball bounces in kitchen (funny seeing newbies stay behind line always). Get feet reset behind kitchen line before next dink.

 

[ByeByePoly]

@Injured Again

Two videos … one suggesting dink should peak before net, second actual play between #1 and #2 pro doubles teams. You watch and decide.

Edit: Read Tekel408 comment after this first video … really good … I learned stuff. Take the video as good advice for beginner, but not what happens as you get better. It’s obviously situational … if I hit sharp cross court way wide peak of arch can’t be before net.

Watch dink points from side camera angle … one @1:00ish

 

[Injured Again]

@ByeByePoly Thank you so much - this is all extremely helpful. It seems like I have to mentally separate tennis technique from pickleball technique and silo them from each other in order to make faster progress.

A question - I've been looking at paddles and some say "2100 RPM" and another will tout "2200 RPM". But I can't find anything that tells me what this means or how it was derived, other than that the 2200 RPM paddle produces more spin than the 2100 RPM paddle. Is this a lab test of some sort where a ball is projected against a vertically moving paddle and the resultant spin is measured?

I'm not really sure how relevant this is to my game at its present state of infancy, but I am a high spin rate tennis player compared to my age group peers so if this is an advantage I can carry into pickleball, I'm curious to learn more about it.

 

[ByeByePoly]

@ByeByePoly Thank you so much - this is all extremely helpful. It seems like I have to mentally separate tennis technique from pickleball technique and silo them from each other in order to make faster progress.

A question - I've been looking at paddles and some say "2100 RPM" and another will tout "2200 RPM". But I can't find anything that tells me what this means or how it was derived, other than that the 2200 RPM paddle produces more spin than the 2100 RPM paddle. Is this a lab test of some sort where a ball is projected against a vertically moving paddle and the resultant spin is measured?

I'm not really sure how relevant this is to my game at its present state of infancy, but I am a high spin rate tennis player compared to my age group peers so if this is an advantage I can carry into pickleball, I'm curious to learn more about it.

Yes … have to deprogram a lot of the tennis, but not all of it. When I started our 5.0 head pro said good tennis players can get to 3.5 pretty fast, but after that they have to learn pickleball skills (particularly the soft skills) just like everyone else. Part of the deprogramming is first instincts and choices. A tennis player will get a ball in the middle in transition zone, see a 2ft gap between opponents, and say “I got this”. They take a cut off a crap plastic ball 1 foot bounce, or worse try and hit half volley winner, or even worse half volley lob. A good pickleball player‘s instinct and first choice is hit block/reset to kitchen, move in and play kitchen ball. We come with shots and angles that are possible with the improved spin … but risk/reward is a constant work in progress. My topspin lob from baseline is now low enough user error to make it legit, but many months it was not.

Not only is there no lab test on spin, there are multiple reviewer arms and techniques (or lack of) documenting spin. Some mark the ball, use a camera and then run it through frames per second calculation. At least one uses a radar gun. Add to that, variances in grit in different batches from China manufacturing. Best you can do is pick a couple of reviewers you want to follow, and then see if reviewers rank them similar based on their regular testing. For the most part, all carbon or kevlar with peel ply will be 2000+ RPM and you wouldn’t notice big difference on topspin drives. The reason I seek out that last +200-300 rpm is that topspin lob, has to be very precise because of court dimensions. Every time this 66 year old can disrupt the young dinkmasters kitchen plans, the better.

 

[TheLeadMaster]

Why don't you buy a gun instead?

 

[bobleenov1963]

I am playing with the Joola Perseus Gen 3 and it is the best paddle, IMHO. The version I am using is currently not approved by the USAPA but I don't really care, LOL....

 

[Injured Again]

My son and a friend of his played in a pickleball tournament in the 4.0 level. I think between the two of them, they had been on a pickleball court no more than a dozen times total, and it was my son's first time play competitive doubles. They went 1-5 in the round robin but said that every game was close. They had no idea what they were doing and basically relied on tennis skills and athleticism. My son ended up purchasing the same Mten paddle set that we have, and it was what he used in the tournament.

I think we're done with pickleball for the time being. We're going to try to get in as much outdoor tennis as possible before the weather turns, and since we don't have access to indoor pickleball courts, we're likely going to stop playing until next year. I'll probably pick up a paddle at that time.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I am playing with the Joola Perseus Gen 3 and it is the best paddle, IMHO. The version I am using is currently not approved by the USAPA but I don't really care, LOL....

Was this a confession? I know someone who bought three of them when he heard they were delisted.

 

[vex]

So I bought a Red Wilson Tour Pro from total pickleball during covid around 2020 I think it may have been. It sat in my car for about 3-4 years (not everyday, just most of hte time). I brought it with me on road trips just incase I wanted to play. I ended up not playing for about 3 years.

I recently got back into it and hitting tennis balls after my eye surgery. I'm a tennis coach, and hit with higher level guys in tennis regularly. So tennis is always going to be my first priority.

But I have enjoyed playing pickle recently socially with beginners at open events, and even more fun with other tennis players who play pickle (we stick out like a sorethumb and it's obvious we're tennis players because we just play the game so differently).

My brother wants to start playing, since his boss at his department has invited the staff to play every other Saturday morning. My brother used to play USTA tennis years ago, probably a 3.5 at best, and has spent more time playing golf these days. I let him borrow my Wilson paddle and he said he enjoyed playing with his co-workers and he wants to play with me regularly.

So now I'm just considering giving him my Wilson and buying a new paddle, since I might actually want to enter some pickle tournaments eventually.

I haven't kept up with the new paddle technology. I only bought the Wilson Tour Pro years ago because I've used Wilson Pro Staff tennis racquets for years (and Babolat as well). I noticed the tennis big dogs (Wilson, Babolat, Head, Yonex) aren't the big players in the paddle industry like they are with tennis racquets.

So if I'm serious about buying a "modern" paddle, what brands are the gold standard right now? The ones featured on pickleball-warehouse? Joola, Six-Zero, Selkirk, Gearbox are the "featured" top brands.

I still have a sense of brand loyalty to Wilson/Babolat and wouldn't be opposed to buying one of their paddles. But if Joola is where it's at, and it's that big of a difference maker on court, then I'll give it a try. Money isn't an issue, so I don't need to get a budget paddle.

You have a very meh paddle. Which is fine if ur just messing around. If you want to be more competitive you should test play with the latest Selkirks and Joolas. I personally prefer the Power Air S2 but it’s not for everyone. Also buy on **** not direct.