Correlation of wrist awareness and racquet polarization

[dr. godmode]

Check out this excellent break down of using the wrist for power generation in all shots.

In the video, he points out the racquet tip awareness is crucial to developing proper wrist action in a swing. He also mentions Rafa and Roger, guys with extreme wrist action. These guys are known to use more polarized racquets, so I'm wondering if tip weight can increase tip awareness, allowing for improved wrist action. On the other hand, Murray is an example of a player with limited wrist action who plays with a depolarized setup.

Note: I'm not trying to describe the "feel" of the racquet. I think that depicts sensations at ball contact. I mean how the racquet feels as you swing. How aware one if of the tip's location and velocity.

What do you guys think? Any other data points that fit well or completely bust my hypothesis?

 

[Irvin]

i don’t think you can feel tip weight. I think the only things you feel are weight & balance, and inertia.

 

[IowaGuy]

i don’t think you can feel tip weight. I think the only things you feel are weight & balance, and inertia.

How does twistweight fit into that?

A different form of inertia? (2 different forms of inertia - swingweight and twistweight?)

 

[travlerajm]

i don’t think you can feel tip weight. I think the only things you feel are weight & moment, and inertia.

Fixed it for you. You can’t feel balance - you can only feel the first moment, which is the product of the mass and the balance.

Mass is the zeroth moment, and inertia is the 2nd moment. You can feel all 3.

 

[shamaho]

i don’t think you can feel tip weight. I think the only things you feel are weight & balance, and inertia.

I agree.

I'm not at all aware or consious of the racket tip... probably more aware of the racket face in general... but then it's feeling more about what @Irvin says...

 

[Irvin]

How does twistweight fit into that?

A different form of inertia? (2 different forms of inertia - swingweight and twistweight?)

Not sure what you’re asking but SW and TW are the same thing only different. TW is the inertia of a racket based on a pivot that goes lengthwise from the centerline of the racket. SW is a moment of inertia based on a pivot point 10 cm from the butt. Both are inertia but on 2 different planes.

 

[Irvin]

Fixed it for you. You can’t feel balance - you can only feel the first moment, which is the product of the mass and the balance.

Mass is the zeroth moment, and inertia is the 2nd moment. You can feel all 3.

If that’s not what I said then I was wrong. Both are the same unless I’m mistaken. Balance and weight to me is the same as mass time balance point or a 325 g racket with a 32 cm balance has 10.4 Kgcm force or 10400 gcm.

 

[travlerajm]

If that’s not what I said then I was wrong. Both are the same unless I’m mistaken. Balance and weight to me is the same as mass time balance point or a 325 g racket with a 32 cm balance has 10.4 Kgcm force or 10400 gcm.

If you hold two racquets by the handle that have the same first moment (i.e, mass x balance is the same), but the balance differs by several centimeters, they will feel the same as heavy, but you won’t feel which one has the longer balance without holding it by a different part of the frame.

 

[Irvin]

If you hold two racquets by the handle that have the same first moment (i.e, mass x balance is the same), but the balance differs by several centimeters, they will feel the same as heavy, but you won’t feel which one has the longer balance without holding it by a different part of the frame.

True because of inertia and mass. If the mass times balance is the same but balance is different then mass must be different too. Not sure where you’re going with this but it looks to me like we’re saying the same thing.

 

[travlerajm]

True because of inertia and mass. If the mass times balance is the same but balance is different then mass must be different too. Not sure where you’re going with this but it looks to me like we’re saying the same thing.

Inertia is something different - it is the second moment, not the first. It requires motion to perceive moment of inertia.

 

[Irvin]

True so?

 

[shamaho]

Only now I happened to see the video the OP posted (I was browsing youtube that that thing showed up, so I clicked) .... OMG immho that guy got sooooooo wrong....
He makes the point that wrist action is a function of the forearm muscle ?!? or rather that you should use your forearm muscle to produce the wrist action you see on the Pros... OMG...

 

[time_fly]

I’m not going into wrist use or “tip feel” but, thanks to typical consumer racquet QC, I’ve played with pairs of identical model racquets where one is 7 or 8g higher than the other. If I use putty under the butt cap and lead at the tip to match the weight and balance of the heavier racquet, the modified one — which is presumably more polarized — does feel different.

 

[wings56]

This exact phrasing of what he was saying may have been a little iffy, but I think his overall concept stands. I do think the big muscles help facilitate the momentum in that wrist action.

 

[SlvrDragon50]

Only now I happened to see the video the OP posted (I was browsing youtube that that thing showed up, so I clicked) .... OMG immho that guy got sooooooo wrong....
He makes the point that wrist action is a function of the forearm muscle ?!? or rather that you should use your forearm muscle to produce the wrist action you see on the Pros... OMG...

How is saying wrist action is a function of the forearm muscle wrong?

 

[dr. godmode]

This exact phrasing of what he was saying may have been a little iffy, but I think his overall concept stands. I do think the big muscles help facilitate the momentum in that wrist action.

Can you help me articulate it better? Or do you mean the video?

 

[wings56]

Can you help me articulate it better? Or do you mean the video?

The video! I think what you're saying is a pretty good explanation

 

[ruud5]

https://www.feeltennis.net/forehand-wrist-lag/

 

[smalahove]

These guys are known to use more polarized racquets, so I'm wondering if tip weight can increase tip awareness, allowing for improved wrist action. On the other hand, Murray is an example of a player with limited wrist action who plays with a depolarized setup.

I'll let Irvin and Travlerajm comment and/or correct on the physics, but there are some interesting perspectives from golf, as they've gone all out on metrics and measurements.

Tip weight is something that I also thought would make it easier to swing a golf club, because of the assumption (based on feel) that it has some positive impact on speed or accuracy (i.e. feel). However, that's not where the pros add the weight as it slows down the club, and club head speed is one of the key factors to long drives f.inst. Add to that accuracy, which is perhaps the most important factor when hitting the ball. The pros hit the ball with a 45´ driver with absurd accuracy.

So how does feel translate from the club to the golfer? As they swing to impact, the shaft flexes, depending on stiffness and flexpoint. So as I see it you have two "concepts" that have to be addressed by the golfer, at the same time: the feel for the impact point on the club head (like the feel of your palm when you want to catch a ball), and the feel of the flexpoint. The latter is because this is the point where some sentripetal force is acting on the club - and that is probably some sort of momentum feel (?) The first is more complicated imo: if you've played a sport with an object for a long while, this becomes a part of your extended nervous system, similar to the uncanny control and acuteness (?) a rally driver has for his car whilst driving (inch perfection in 200 km/h). Or you can look at fencing. The tip of the foil weighs hardly anything, but the control a great fencer har, is impressive.



In golf, the stiffness, weight and flexpoint of a shaft is not the telling sign of how good a golfer you are (however they are problably pretty correlated tbh), but a good sign of the type of swing you have, i.e. how you accelerate: short/long and fast/slow. You can generate a lot of club head speed with a slow and steady acceleration, but you then need a long swing. However, if you have a fast acceleration you'll probably need a stiffer shaft with different flex point.

 

[shamaho]

How is saying wrist action is a function of the forearm muscle wrong?

Well what I really meant to say was that his focus on the small muscles is imho wrong.
and @ruud5 by posting his link to another video, kinda illustrates really well why I say his focus on muscle action is wrong - it helps mostly to create tightness in the swing.