Could Hawaiian FH be the easiest, with the least timing problems?

[tlm]

About 3.0-3.5, self rated.

Whatever the grip, the recent videos have proved that I have to really focus on butt pointing to the ball. Otherwise, I'll soon have a tlm FH.

I don't have the racket butt pointing at the ball?

 

[Power Player]

OP has mastered convincing himself of doing things by arguing incessantly in their favor on the internet.

 

[LoboLaw1984]

There is no way that the Hawaiian FH is the easiest, with the least timing problems. I swear, where do people get this nonsense?

 

[torpantennis]

There is no way that the Hawaiian FH is the easiest, with the least timing problems. I swear, where do people get this nonsense?

Just watch all these three forehands, and keep an eye on wrist and its position in relation to the racquet handle. Tell me which forehand has the most happenings on the wrist, around the time when you make contact with the ball. And which forehand has the happenings around the wrist well beyond the moment of ball contact?

Eastern/SW: https://youtu.be/Af-nLzGh3eM
SW/Western: https://youtu.be/PLRLP8g7-zY?t=15s
Hawaiian: https://youtu.be/b9lIIiJ16sA?t=50s

 

[torpantennis]

I don't have the racket butt pointing at the ball?

Your racquet lag is not pronounced enough. Basically too stiff gripping of the racquet, and too much focusing of a pushing motion, instead of pulling motion for the racquet.

In many ways, your FH reminds me a lot of myself, all the things that I do wrong. I guess that's why it looks so bad. :lol:

 

[LoboLaw1984]

Just watch all these three forehands, and keep an eye on wrist and its position in relation to the racquet handle. Tell me which forehand has the most happenings on the wrist, around the time when you make contact with the ball. And which forehand has the happenings around the wrist well beyond the moment of ball contact?

Eastern/SW: https://youtu.be/Af-nLzGh3eM
SW/Western: https://youtu.be/PLRLP8g7-zY?t=15s
Hawaiian: https://youtu.be/b9lIIiJ16sA?t=50s

I am sorry, but no amount of video analysis is going to convince me that HW grip is somehow less susceptible to errors than a normal SW grip. Your point flies in the face of decades of well tested, established tennis convention.

 

[dnj30]

the only positive thing to say about a hawaiian fh grip is that you are already in a continental grip too.

 

[tlm]

Your racquet lag is not pronounced enough. Basically too stiff gripping of the racquet, and too much focusing of a pushing motion, instead of pulling motion for the racquet.

In many ways, your FH reminds me a lot of myself, all the things that I do wrong. I guess that's why it looks so bad. :lol:

You will not show video of your forehand though so it must be pretty bad, as weird as my forehand may look I am sure that it is much more effective than what you have.

 

[spaceman_spiff]

Just watch all these three forehands, and keep an eye on wrist and its position in relation to the racquet handle. Tell me which forehand has the most happenings on the wrist, around the time when you make contact with the ball. And which forehand has the happenings around the wrist well beyond the moment of ball contact?

Eastern/SW: https://youtu.be/Af-nLzGh3eM
SW/Western: https://youtu.be/PLRLP8g7-zY?t=15s
Hawaiian: https://youtu.be/b9lIIiJ16sA?t=50s

Not all eastern, SW, or western forehands are the same. For example, Agassi has a very smooth swing without a lot of wrist action, but he doesn't use a Hawaiian grip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXWks8yvRJQ.

Edit: as an added benefit, Agassi's forehand can easily pick up low balls without a high risk of framing them.

 

[THE FIGHTER]

Now remember that there are two kinds of timings: Timing of the ball, AND timing of the parts of the kinetic chain. My timing troubles with SW are more related to the kinetic chain, and the use of pronation in relation to other parts of the body. I have no troubles to time the ball. Hitting on the rise and topspin half volleying at the baseline has always been very natural for me.

Mechanics of the Hawaiian FH seem very easy and straightforward, so timings of the kinetic chain should be easier.

it'll be more difficult to hit half volleys effectively with the hawaiian, thats for sure

 

[torpantennis]

Not all eastern, SW, or western forehands are the same. For example, Agassi has a very smooth swing without a lot of wrist action, but he doesn't use a Hawaiian grip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXWks8yvRJQ.

Edit: as an added benefit, Agassi's forehand can easily pick up low balls without a high risk of framing them.

Fair enough. But, Agassi's FH is not that modern. The buttcap is not pointing to the ball like it does with modern players. That kind of a motion is not what I'm after. I want to find a simple pull oriented style, without aggressive wrist actions. Djokovic looks relatively close to that.

Federer points the butt to the ball with an easternish grip, but he has to extend (and release) the wrist to keep the racquet at a correct angle. I think I'm doing something slightly similar with my wrist, and that's what I like to get rid of.

 

[torpantennis]

it'll be more difficult to hit half volleys effectively with the hawaiian, thats for sure

That's true. I'd really like to keep my ability to hit on the rise, and milder grips are perfect for that. But is there a way to avoid the wrist actions with SW, if you still like to keep the butt pointing to the ball?

 

[THE FIGHTER]

That's true. I'd really like to keep my ability to hit on the rise, and milder grips are perfect for that. But is there a way to avoid the wrist actions with SW, if you still like to keep the butt pointing to the ball?

As someone mentioned, the agassi forehand fits what you are describing. Not too much wrist movement (keep in mind this is different from pronating/windshield wiper). In fact, i think bolleteri and agassi popularized the idea of getting the butt of the racquet pointing forward. He keeps his wrist extended through out most of the swing with a little bit of flexion around contact, like most forehands before his time, but the butt pointing bit is still there.

But like others have mentioned, i think its worth practicing with the semi western grip or something less extreme and less limited than the hawaiian. You just dont have the freedom to flatten or hit through as you would with even a full western grip. If you want a constant trait to simplify your game, instead of comitting to a new grip, work on steady consistent positioning. Itll help any grip or stroke mechanic, but it maximizes the options you have.

Keep us updated

 

[tennis_balla]

Enough knee bend, and you can go low enough for topspin.

And that grip is actually equal to conti grip, so you can slice the very low balls (with the opposite side of the stringbed).

Slice forehand? Good luck with that then.

 

[Migelowsky]

Fair enough. But, Agassi's FH is not that modern. The buttcap is not pointing to the ball like it does with modern players. That kind of a motion is not what I'm after. I want to find a simple pull oriented style, without aggressive wrist actions. Djokovic looks relatively close to that.

Federer points the butt to the ball with an easternish grip, but he has to extend (and release) the wrist to keep the racquet at a correct angle. I think I'm doing something slightly similar with my wrist, and that's what I like to get rid of.

?
These images are small, but they are from an article in 1989 or 1990, Of course Agassi points the buttcap to the ball.

The article talks about laying back the wrist.The first image is small, but you can see Agassi as an example.Look at Krickstein, western grips, open stance..
Just out of curiosity, about what year you consider a tennis player "modern"?
Anyway, I think the pics on this article may help you, look how Gullickson releases the wrist and the tip of the racquet moves forward.

 

[tennis_balla]

^^ That can't be right, what kind of sorcery is this? According to Wegner and MTM no one taught "modern" back in the late 80's/early 90's until he came along with his book. Blasphemy!

 

[torpantennis]

Is the buttcap pointing to the ball for as long a time on Agassi's FH than on the most modern 2000s FHs? For my eyes at least it looks like Agassi's swing path is more circular, so the buttcap points to the ball for only a very short time at the start of the forward swing. In comparison, 2000s players look like they have the butt pointing to the ball for a much longer time, like they were pulling the racquet instead of swinging it? Could this be related somehow to the I/O swingpath that I've heard people talk here on TTW?

 

[paulfreda]

I taught myself the Hawaiian FH a few years ago
It took several months to get it right and be comfortable with it.
Keys I found were ....
1. Must hit it way out front. Hitting it late near the body is DEATH.
Low balls are not a problem if hit out in front.
2. I must rapidly suppinate my forearm and release my wrist to get the face near square to the ball.
3. I like to hit with my fist above the strings swinging low to high
4. If I want to hit really hard I actually square up my stance to almost closed as it allows a full release in to the ball without skying it.
5. It is hard to remember to get under the ball to get it DEEP
but you have to or you'll hit short balls that a good player will eat up.
6. Defensive balls are a real problem so I change my grip on them to SW

I love hitting with it. I fully rotate and release my forearm and wrist in to the ball and its great fun to lash it.

 

[heninfan99]

What grip do you use? You don't change on the backhand...

Why not a western?

Seems like a good option instead of the Hawaiian.

 

[Power Player]

Is the buttcap pointing to the ball for as long a time on Agassi's FH than on the most modern 2000s FHs? For my eyes at least it looks like Agassi's swing path is more circular, so the buttcap points to the ball for only a very short time at the start of the forward swing. In comparison, 2000s players look like they have the butt pointing to the ball for a much longer time, like they were pulling the racquet instead of swinging it? Could this be related somehow to the I/O swingpath that I've heard people talk here on TTW?

You are thinking about this way too much. It is a bad idea. Nobody ever hits a ball and thinks about these things.

The only way to do this stuff is to film yourself and see if you actually do it. I have been pointing the buttcap at the ball since I was a kid and I never thought about it until I saw that I did it on film.

Its real simple to do this. Take the racquet back compactly and swing forward. If you want to be obsessed with terms like "modern" or whatever else, go ahead, but its a waste of time. Modern really is just more of a compact take back and a more open stance if you want to get to the meat of it. Try copying David Ferrars take back and you will see what I mean.

 

[torpantennis]

You are thinking about this way too much. It is a bad idea. Nobody ever hits a ball and thinks about these things.

The only way to do this stuff is to film yourself and see if you actually do it. I have been pointing the buttcap at the ball since I was a kid and I never thought about it until I saw that I did it on film.

Its real simple to do this. Take the racquet back compactly and swing forward. If you want to be obsessed with terms like "modern" or whatever else, go ahead, but its a waste of time. Modern really is just more of a compact take back and a more open stance if you want to get to the meat of it. Try copying David Ferrars take back and you will see what I mean.

I might be overthinking, but who cares. The point was that I wanted to find a simpler pulling type of a motion into my FH, instead of a wristy swing that's very sensitive to small errors. Actually, I've now developed a new type of a swing, and also switched the grip.

My motion is very similar to the "skipping stones" throwing motion of Fognini: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=530211

And my grip is a variation of full western, with all the base knuckles of fingers resting on the same bevel "under" the racquet. On my take back, the tip of the racquet points almost forward, and then flips backwards as I let the forearm rotate into supination when I start pulling the racquet forward. I've used this style for a month now, and it's improving day by day. http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=534017

You're right, I might be overthinking. But my goal of getting a simple pull type motion was very simple, and I've now achieved that goal. I should indeed take a video, but the problem is that the videos of smartphones have tons of motion blur so it might be very hard to see what's really going on.

 

[Power Player]

I should indeed take a video, but the problem is that the videos of smartphones have tons of motion blur so it might be very hard to see what's really going on.

This too is overthinking. Instead of just taking the video you are already thinking of the results.

It will be fine. Trust me. I filmed myself on a hand held video recorder 5 years ago and I could see it. Just go film yourself.

 

[torpantennis]

This too is overthinking. Instead of just taking the video you are already thinking of the results.

It will be fine. Trust me. I filmed myself on a hand held video recorder 5 years ago and I could see it. Just go film yourself.

I'll probably go on a free public court and do some drop feeds. There it's easy to check the vid straight after. I'll also do some kick serve practices with vid analysis, as I'm now very close of finally "finding" the topspin on serve.

 

[Bendex]

Check this clip: https://youtu.be/b9lIIiJ16sA

Like you see, she does NOT pronate the forearm during the swing of her Hawaiian FH. In comparison, a SW FH pronates the forearm, and timing of the pronation is what I think causes my problems. I'd like to get rid of that pronation, and the timing challenges of it.

Wow, she almost has a continental grip, then hits with the other side of the string bed. Her junior coach should lose his license.

 

[GuyClinch]

If the Hawaiian forehand was so easy - more people would hit with it. As it is with most sports - the professionals are ahead of the curve - and tend to happen upon more advanced and biomechanically superior strokes forged from trial and error - and not just mental masturbation..

 

[torpantennis]

If the Hawaiian forehand was so easy - more people would hit with it. As it is with most sports - the professionals are ahead of the curve - and tend to happen upon more advanced and biomechanically superior strokes forged from trial and error - and not just mental masturbation..

Nope. Pros use strokes which are the most EFFICIENT, not the ones which are the easiest.

 

[Bender]

Wow, she almost has a continental grip, then hits with the other side of the string bed. Her junior coach should lose his license.

That is the Hawaiian grip, no?

 

[paulfreda]

Hawaiian Grip

That is the Hawaiian grip, no?

Yes for sure a Hawaiian grip

 

[GuyClinch]

Pro strokes are not particularly efficient - they can be biomechanically efficient at producing certain results - but they aren't efficient in work done to work achieved sense. Wake me up when you can beat a decent player with this gimmick forehand..

Federer forehand isn't the most efficient forehand - but if you want to learn how to use a compact stroke to generate good power, spin and consistency - it's one of the best ways..

 

[Broly4]

Wake me up when you can beat a decent player with this gimmick forehand..

Berasategui was top 10, GS finalist, beat Agassi and Rafter to reach AO quarters, using the Hawaiian...

 

[GuyClinch]

Chang forced an error out of Lendl with a dink underhand serve. It's still a gimmick shot. Generic pro technique is easier to model - then Santoro or some other gimmicky pro. Again its actually the other way around..

Pros who hit with weird/unusual technique often have some awesome levels of coordination that enable to them to prosper with lousy oddball technique. Rather then model that - you should model the most generic technique - as that's the easiest.

The Graf forehand is a prime example. Should you model your forehand after Graf? No - its quirky and effective but that's because of her talent - its not the reason for her success. She was successful even with its oddness.

 

[torpantennis]

Chang forced an error out of Lendl with a dink underhand serve. It's still a gimmick shot. Generic pro technique is easier to model - then Santoro or some other gimmicky pro. Again its actually the other way around..

Pros who hit with weird/unusual technique often have some awesome levels of coordination that enable to them to prosper with lousy oddball technique. Rather then model that - you should model the most generic technique - as that's the easiest.

The Graf forehand is a prime example. Should you model your forehand after Graf? No - its quirky and effective but that's because of her talent - its not the reason for her success. She was successful even with its oddness.

Hawaiian forehand motion is a very simple pulling motion. In comparison, Federer forehand with its extreme wrist action and straight arm technique is MUCH tougher to replicate and time properly. I don't get your logic. Why would a simple pulling motion be that hard?

 

[GuyClinch]

Dude..you sound like an awful tennis player in your posts..

Fed's forehand is not some 'extreme wrist action' - he just lets the racquet head drop during the first phase of his forward swing - then his natural ISR takes over. Lots and lots of rec players hit this way - albeit not as well..

Here are some juniors hitting forehands - and these guys are from RI. So no - most of those kids aren't going pro..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4zsif0Hogk

Go to any decent park in the US - especially in CA/TX/Florida - and you will see forehands like this. It's not a big deal - though some of these kids do have a nice forehand.


What's hard about the Hawaiian? You need really good RHS - and when you swing extremely fast you make more mistakes. Whereas some hack with his 3.5 Fedesque strokes just makes clean contact - swings through the ball - and with minimal effort delivers moderate pace..with enough spin to keep the ball in.

You are just looking for some new solution to a non-existent problem. If hitting a decent forehand was some impossible dream - then maybe your approach would be worth checking out. But forehand is one of the strongest shot for men around.. LOTS of rec players hit really nice forehands.

Not that you will take it - but my advice is just to pick a simple ATP forehand (Murray) and copy that.. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. You do not need to be a pro to hit a very nice forehand (thank god)..

 

[oble]

Hawaiian forehand motion is a very simple pulling motion. In comparison, Federer forehand with its extreme wrist action and straight arm technique is MUCH tougher to replicate and time properly. I don't get your logic. Why would a simple pulling motion be that hard?

Federer's wrist action looks more like him being able to hit with a relatively relaxed wrist to let the wrist release into the shot than actively manipulating his wrist for "extreme wrist action".

The SW grip places much of the palm directly behind the shot, so if you have a straight forward swing mechanic and some decent positioning, it shouldn't be complicated at all to meet the ball squarely. It really just sounds like you have some quirks in how you swing your racquet that's causing the issue. Maybe you should post a short video clip or gif of how you hit your forehands (like the gif of your quirky service motion which helped explain why your serves are mostly slices and skid low).

 

[SpinToWin]

This too is overthinking. Instead of just taking the video you are already thinking of the results.

It will be fine. Trust me. I filmed myself on a hand held video recorder 5 years ago and I could see it. Just go film yourself.

Sometimes I really wonder who's worse, the guys in the racquet section who think that a racquet will make them play better or the guys here who analyse the components of a stroke to such an extent that no player can understand or emulate the motion.

To the OP: just get a good coach and get hitting. I'd wager that what you're feeling or seeing isn't even the case to begin with. Your perception of your own strokes is pretty limited. Recently I coached a guy who had trouble with his one hander. He kept hitting the ball late no matter what. After a while I told him to hit what he considers to be way too early. That was it, his backhand was fixed. You're seriously overcomplicating things, some things happen unconsciously during a stroke and focusing on these things is a waste of time.

 

[Stroke]

cool, that i'm not the only one I found the hardest part of the switch was reverting back to my old grip... I even resorted to modifying my grip to feel different (eg. using "the wedge" - company is no longer in business), but well worth the year long effort (to get back to my previous level of consistency). Good luck on your journey.

NY, I wish you could elaborate more on your grip relearning using the wedge(power v grip). I am going through this now using the wedge. I am kind of settling in with a kind of sw forehand grip, with the wedge facing forward.

 

[TennisCJC]

Hawaiian forehand motion is a very simple pulling motion. In comparison, Federer forehand with its extreme wrist action and straight arm technique is MUCH tougher to replicate and time properly. I don't get your logic. Why would a simple pulling motion be that hard?

No, Hawaiian FH is not simplier than Federer's FH. You can "model" you FH loosely on Federer's FH and end up with a solid easy to replicate FH with a grip that works well for low, medium and high balls. Hawaiian grip is extreme and has a small optimum contact zone that works best for high contact points - shouder high and above. If you don't understand this, take some lessons.

If you want to use Hawaiian, please go for it. But, I don't think you are going to get a lot of support that this is a fundamentally sound way to play tennis. I for one, think most pros use technique that is maximized for efficiency. You see very few (almost none) Hawaiin grips on the pro tour.

 

[Stroke]

No, Hawaiian FH is not simplier than Federer's FH. You can "model" you FH loosely on Federer's FH and end up with a solid easy to replicate FH with a grip that works well for low, medium and high balls. Hawaiian grip is extreme and has a small optimum contact zone that works best for high contact points - shouder high and above. If you don't understand this, take some lessons.

If you want to use Hawaiian, please go for it. But, I don't think you are going to get a lot of support that this is a fundamentally sound way to play tennis. I for one, think most pros use technique that is maximized for efficiency. You see very few (almost none) Hawaiin grips on the pro tour.

So true. A grip that basicly has the back of your hitting hand faicng forward at contact is about as inefficient as one could get. Try pushing open a door with the back of your hand. That is pretty much the Hawaiian grip.

 

[torpantennis]

No, Hawaiian FH is not simplier than Federer's FH. You can "model" you FH loosely on Federer's FH and end up with a solid easy to replicate FH with a grip that works well for low, medium and high balls. Hawaiian grip is extreme and has a small optimum contact zone that works best for high contact points - shouder high and above. If you don't understand this, take some lessons.

If you want to use Hawaiian, please go for it. But, I don't think you are going to get a lot of support that this is a fundamentally sound way to play tennis. I for one, think most pros use technique that is maximized for efficiency. You see very few (almost none) Hawaiin grips on the pro tour.

Well, the point was NOT whether Hawaiian grip has the most versatility in the contact point. The point was that the swinging motion itself on the Hawaiian is less prone to timing errors (in the kinetic chain of motions). And I do agree that Hawaiian is a bit too much oriented to very high contact points only. That's why I opted for a full western FH, with the hammer grip instead of the normal pistol grip. This "hammer western FH" seems to be the best compromize for my needs. It has that simple pulling type of motion, and by bending the knees I can get to many low balls. And if the ball is too low, I can always slice it. The change from full western hammer grip to conti hammer grip (for slice) is very small.

I've used the hammer western FH for more than a month now, and the match results are improving day by day. I really like it!

 

[GuyClinch]

This "hammer western FH" seems to be the best compromize for my needs.

Does your list of needs include being decent at tennis?

 

[torpantennis]

Does your list of needs include being decent at tennis?

Western hammer grip and my take back gives a forehand that closely remebles Jack Sock FH. My version has even more of a hammer grip, with a similar late flip of the racquet. http://youtu.be/v6SiyebEFVQ

I guess Jack Sock is not "decent"?

 

[Power Player]

Western hammer grip and my take back gives a forehand that closely remebles Jack Sock FH. My version has even more of a hammer grip, with a similar late flip of the racquet. http://youtu.be/v6SiyebEFVQ

I guess Jack Sock is not "decent"?

LOL..so you hit the forehand like Jack Sock, a guy who hits the biggest forehand in tennis right now?

I'd love to see video of this. You really come off as delusional.

 

[torpantennis]

LOL..so you hit the forehand like Jack Sock, a guy who hits the biggest forehand in tennis right now?

I'd love to see video of this. You really come off as delusional.

Of course it's not even closely as heavy, as fast, or as spinny. But the swing STYLE is the same, more or less. I point the tip of the racquet fully forward before the forward swing (like Sock). From there, all I just think is "throwing skipping stones" with the racquet. That automatically flips the racquet back, and the butt points to the ball.

For me at least, this Sock style motion is easier than a normal pistol grip SW FH. Throwing skipping stones has always been easy.

 

[GuyClinch]

Wait what? So the Fed forehand had too much wrist manipulation - so you picked Sock? LMAO. Feel Free to post your sockish forehand.. That is a forehand I have never seen a rec player hit. Sock forehand is actually like an extreme version of the Fed forehand. Fed has some flip and considerable lag.. Sock's forehand - well it flips entirely around!

 

[SpinToWin]

Goal was to use less wrist....

Now he has a skipping stone motion which uses more wrist than pretty much anything.

:neutral:

 

[torpantennis]

Wait what? So the Fed forehand had too much wrist manipulation - so you picked Sock? LMAO. Feel Free to post your sockish forehand.. That is a forehand I have never seen a rec player hit. Sock forehand is actually like an extreme version of the Fed forehand. Fed has some flip and considerable lag.. Sock's forehand - well it flips entirely around!

Nope, Sock forehand is nothing like Federer's. Just check Sock wrist during the motion more closely. The wrist remains in a neutral position throughout the stroke. The flip of the racquet is caused by rotating the forearm into supination, so wrist joint does absolutely no movements. The supination is coming from the shoulder. Wrist joint does absolutely no movements for the lag of racquet in Sock forehand.

Federer in comparison lets the wrist go into an aggressive extension in the racquet lag, and then he releases the extension back into the ball contact. This is a wristy motion, but Sock forehand is all about shoulder.

 

[torpantennis]

Goal was to use less wrist....

Now he has a skipping stone motion which uses more wrist than pretty much anything.

:neutral:

See the last reply. This type of a forehand eliminates wrist actions and uses the shoulder more.

 

[mbm0912]

That "Hawaiin" grip is hideous and probably the absolute least effective for the vast majority. Use a modified Eastern like normal people.