Court, Graf, Williams, and Djokovic - Elite Company

[5-30]

As an amateur tennis historian I noticed there's a very short list of players who have won all four majors/slams at least three times. That is some elite level achievement.

Margaret Court
Steffi Graf (she actually has 4 or more of each major)
Serena Williams
Novak Djokovic

Surprisingly no Fed, Nadal, Martina, Chrissie, or even Laver (and the Rocket won the Grand Slam twice!)

 

[Razer]

Ask the biggest corporations on the planet who the GOAT is, they will say - The Billionaire Roger Federer
Ask the British Royal Family who the GOAT is, they will say - Roger Federer
Ask the fans who the GOAT is, many of them will say - Roger Federer

So numbers alone on the court is not enough, off the court popularity + brand value + intangibles are also needed. Federer remains the biggest icon of our times despite Djokovic having the numbers to call himself the statistical goat.

 

[Nappa]

So Steffy Graff is better than Djokovic and has a tier of her own

 

[messiahrobins]

As an amateur tennis historian I noticed there's a very short list of players who have won all four majors/slams at least three times. That is some elite level achievement.

Margaret Court
Steffi Graf (she actually has 4 or more of each major)
Serena Williams
Novak Djokovic

Surprisingly no Fed, Nadal, Martina, Chrissie, or even Laver (and the Rocket won the Grand Slam twice!)

If mens and womens tours are put together for an overall GOAT obviously Graf just is miles ahead of anyone.

It goes to show the power lamestream media back in the day before Musk saved people from them that for years Graf was airbrushed out of tennis discussions purely because she upset the US and other western outlets narrative that Navratilova BJK and Evert were the greatest players.

Navratilova looks permanently miserable, and if Graf's name is mentioned when she is on screen she visibily tightens her jaw its fabulous viewing when it happens.

Graf totally completed tennis.

 

[Razer]

If mens and womens tours are put together for an overall GOAT obviously Graf just is miles ahead of anyone.

It goes to show the power lamestream media back in the day before Musk saved people from them that for years Graf was airbrushed out of tennis discussions purely because she upset the US and other western outlets narrative that Navratilova BJK and Evert were the greatest players.

Navratilova looks permanently miserable, and if Graf's name is mentioned when she is on screen she visibily tightens her jaw its fabulous viewing when it happens.

Graf totally completed tennis.

Graf was a vulture who vultured 11 slams after Monica Seles was stabbed and she also vultured 8-9 slams before seles arrived, evert-navratilova were old and in 30s then.... Graf never had any rivals...

Secondly, men and womens tennis cannot be put together if they did not play together.

 

[NoleFam]

Helen Wills Moody won 4 each of RG, Wimbledon and the USO. She never played the AO. Different times back then but I think she's on the level of the other 3 ladies. Winning 19 from only 3 Slams is extraordinary.

I see quite a few similarities between Serena Williams' and Djokovic's careers. Peaked in a strong era and dominated, and then dominated in their 30s as well in eras that weren't as strong. For all the talk of Djokovic being more dominant in his 30s, it's actually Serena who was. She won 8 Slams in 4 years in her 30s (most dominant of her career) and won 26 big titles in her 20s and then 26 in her 30s, in a much shorter span.

In 120 years of Grand Slams, Djokovic is the only man to win at least 3 and will always have those bragging rights as the 1st to do it. Someone will do it again but I don't know if it will be anytime soon.

 

[messiahrobins]

Graf was a vulture who vultured 11 slams after Monica Seles was stabbed and she also vultured 8-9 slams before seles arrived, evert-navratilova were old and in 30s then.... Graf never had any rivals...

Secondly, men and womens tennis cannot be put together if they did not play together.

Whats Seles got to do with it? She was a one dimensional ball basher who got worked out by the tour.

This stabbing excuse is pathetic. She barely got a scratch, think it needed at best a few stitches so was hardly like ruptured tendons!!

 

[SonnyT]

Ask the biggest corporations on the planet who the GOAT is, they will say - The Billionaire Roger Federer
Ask the British Royal Family who the GOAT is, they will say - Roger Federer
Ask the fans who the GOAT is, many of them will say - Roger Federer

So numbers alone on the court is not enough, off the court popularity + brand value + intangibles are also needed. Federer remains the biggest icon of our times despite Djokovic having the numbers to call himself the statistical goat.

Fed the G$OT

 

[Moose Malloy]

As an amateur tennis historian I noticed there's a very short list of players who have won all four majors/slams at least three times. That is some elite level achievement.

Margaret Court
Steffi Graf (she actually has 4 or more of each major)
Serena Williams
Novak Djokovic

Surprisingly no Fed, Nadal, Martina, Chrissie, or even Laver (and the Rocket won the Grand Slam twice!)

Evert rarely played the AO in her best years.

 

[Razer]

Whats Seles got to do with it? She was a one dimensional ball basher who got worked out by the tour.

This stabbing excuse is pathetic. She barely got a scratch, think it needed at best a few stitches so was hardly like ruptured tendons!!

It is better to be godly in that 1 dimension than be a versatile loser. Nadal demonstrated it very well, his gamestyle of chasing backhands with moonballing has given him 14 french opens, brought down Federer's empire and humiliated him. Seles also brought down Graf on all the surfaces except Wimbledon and her 2008 Nadal wimbledon moment would also have happened maybe in 94 or 95 had she not been taking out of the picture.

Sorry, Steffi Graff cannot be taken seriously due to this. I can even consider Margaret Court's numbers because they are legit but Graff is asterisked.

For me Serena is the WTA GOAT but if someone says Court then I won't argue much.

 

[roysid]

Grafs case is the ultimate What If?????
Seles had all the momentum in 1993 having won 7 of the last 9 slams.
Instead everything fell right into hands of Graf and she won the next 4 slams and in total 11 after the stabbing.
Seles was never the same.

Grafs retirement at age 29 with 22 slams was also shocking. By then ofcourse, newer generation had taken over.

Serena and Djokovic, what a similarity. They were challenged throughout and never gave up. They dominated throughout in their 30s reaching 23 and 24 slams.
And both at the twilight of career struggled to make that 24th and 25th respectively when finally competition catched up and took over.

At a very broad level, similarities are there between
Federer - Graf ( media and peoples darling)
Nadal - Seles ( the challenger, only that nobody stabbed Nadal )
Djokovic - Williams ( the anti establishment and the dominator)

 

[5-30]

Helen Wills Moody won 4 each of RG, Wimbledon and the USO. She never played the AO. Different times back then but I think she's on the level of the other 3 ladies. Winning 19 from only 3 Slams is extraordinary.

I see quite a few similarities between Serena Williams' and Djokovic's careers. Peaked in a strong era and dominated, and then dominated in their 30s as well in eras that weren't as strong. For all the talk of Djokovic being more dominant in his 30s, it's actually Serena who was. She won 8 Slams in 4 years in her 30s (most dominant of her career) and won 26 big titles in her 20s and then 26 in her 30s, in a much shorter span.

In 120 years of Grand Slams, Djokovic is the only man to win at least 3 and will always have those bragging rights as the 1st to do it. Someone will do it again but I don't know if it will be anytime soon.

I remember hearing a lots about Wills Moody when Martina broke her Wimbledon record. She was so dominant (like you said 19 from only 3 slams!). I still have no idea why she never traveled to the AO. Yes, it was primarily Aussies playing but a few Brit and American women made the trip during that era (and a couple even won the event).

 

[5-30]

Evert rarely played the AO in her best years.

Yeah, she only played the AO 6 times. Won twice and was runner-up 4 times. Out of curiosity - what do you consider Evert's "best years"?

 

[Moose Malloy]

Yeah, she only played the AO 6 times. Won twice and was runner-up 4 times. Out of curiosity - what do you consider Evert's "best years"?

'74 to '81. was number 1 most of that time and skipped the the AO 7 times in that span. some of those years barely any top 20 players entered. the '78 field was worse than the average 250 today.

 

[5-30]

'74 to '81. was number 1 most of that time and skipped the the AO 7 times in that span. some of those years barely any top 20 players entered. the '78 field was worse than the average 250 today.

Yeah, I totally agree with your overall point. It was definitely the least prestigious of the four slams- even in the Open Era. And that 1978 women's tourney is wild. Chris O'Neil - ranked 80th - wins the whole thing. She never reached a major semi before or since.

Although future Hall-of-Famer Vilas won it on the men's side. Wonder why "some" of the top men were more apt to take that trip....

 

[GrassMasters]

Grafs case is the ultimate What If?????
Seles had all the momentum in 1993 having won 7 of the last 9 slams.
Instead everything fell right into hands of Graf and she won the next 4 slams and in total 11 after the stabbing.
Seles was never the same.

Grafs retirement at age 29 with 22 slams was also shocking. By then ofcourse, newer generation had taken over.

Serena and Djokovic, what a similarity. They were challenged throughout and never gave up. They dominated throughout in their 30s reaching 23 and 24 slams.
And both at the twilight of career struggled to make that 24th and 25th respectively when finally competition catched up and took over.

At a very broad level, similarities are there between
Federer - Graf ( media and peoples darling)
Nadal - Seles ( the challenger, only that nobody stabbed Seles )
Djokovic - Williams ( the anti establishment and the dominator)

You mean Nadal

 

[roysid]

You mean Nadal

Ha ha ofcourse. Thanks for pointing it out

 

[anarosevoli]

It is better to be godly in that 1 dimension than be a versatile loser. Nadal demonstrated it very well, his gamestyle of chasing backhands with moonballing has given him 14 french opens, brought down Federer's empire and humiliated him. Seles also brought down Graf on all the surfaces except Wimbledon and her 2008 Nadal wimbledon moment would also have happened maybe in 94 or 95 had she not been taking out of the picture.

Sorry, Steffi Graff cannot be taken seriously due to this. I can even consider Margaret Court's numbers because they are legit but Graff is asterisked.

For me Serena is the WTA GOAT but if someone says Court then I won't argue much.

You know nothing about tennis, not even the correct spelling of its greatest player ever.
Seles is highly overrated. She's like 75 % Bollettieri and 25 % her grunting sportsmanship, both of which the tour and especially Graf had to adapt to.
Your "GOAT" holds no significant records. And you wouldn't argue about Court? She won THREE Wimbledons. It's always amusing how people judge player's achievements by todays standards ("slams") instead of the standards at the time (when only Wimbledons counted). Court was never close to being GOAT.

 

[Razer]

You know nothing about tennis, not even the correct spelling of its greatest player ever.
Seles is highly overrated. She's like 75 % Bollettieri and 25 % her grunting sportsmanship, both of which the tour and especially Graf had to adapt to.
Your "GOAT" holds no significant records. And you wouldn't argue about Court? She won THREE Wimbledons. It's always amusing how people judge player's achievements by todays standards ("slams") instead of the standards at the time (when only Wimbledons counted). Court was never close to being GOAT.

And you think you know more than me about Tennis? I don't think so. ...

Unlike you, I know what is relevant today and what is irrelevant.

Serena holds the open era slams record, most slams won in the open era when competition has been at its apex and not limited to some neighbouring countries.

Serena won slams era in the era hardest competition ever, i.e until early 2010s and after that she has been battling younger girls which in itself is hard. She won 23 slams vs great competition unlike Graf who won it against oldies and average player while struggling against her only true rival. She is not the greatest player, no matter how much she is hyped she never will, her relevance ended when Serena took over. Graf in the 1990s lost 2 matches to Navratilova i who was in the 3rd decade of her career, this alone eradicates Graf from the goat debate, you at your peak cannot lose to oldies twice at a time when they are mummified level old.

 

[AO13]

Ask the biggest corporations on the planet who the GOAT is, they will say - The Billionaire Roger Federer
Ask the British Royal Family who the GOAT is, they will say - Roger Federer
Ask the fans who the GOAT is, many of them will say - Roger Federer

So numbers alone on the court is not enough, off the court popularity + brand value + intangibles are also needed. Federer remains the biggest icon of our times despite Djokovic having the numbers to call himself the statistical goat.

British Royal Family?

Since when are they experts for tennis?

 

[Razer]

British Royal Family?

Since when are they experts for tennis?

Royals are the Patrons of Wimbledon, they know a thing or 2 about Tennis.

There is a reason why Federer watched tennis matches with Kate Middleton in the royal box, I dont think Djoko or Nadal would be allowed to sit with her, this is because they perceive Federer as the Best Player and the true Royalty of Tennis.

 

[jimmy0slams]

Ask the biggest corporations on the planet who the GOAT is, they will say - The Billionaire Roger Federer
Ask the British Royal Family who the GOAT is, they will say - Roger Federer
Ask the fans who the GOAT is, many of them will say - Roger Federer

So numbers alone on the court is not enough, off the court popularity + brand value + intangibles are also needed. Federer remains the biggest icon of our times despite Djokovic having the numbers to call himself the statistical goat.

Sorry, the fans will say Djokovic - they know the facts.

 

[jimmy0slams]

Graf was a vulture who vultured 11 slams after Monica Seles was stabbed and she also vultured 8-9 slams before seles arrived, evert-navratilova were old and in 30s then.... Graf never had any rivals...

Secondly, men and womens tennis cannot be put together if they did not play together.

It's a big what if moment, if Seles was never attacked ...

 

[Razer]

Sorry, the fans will say Djokovic - they know the facts.

Fans say Federer even today, but there are a good group of people saying Djokovic too, I wont deny, maybe in some years Djokovic will have the wider consensus, he enjoys that among the under 30 crowd today..

 

[Spielgame]

Ask the biggest corporations on the planet who the GOAT is, they will say - The Billionaire Roger Federer

Ok, I ask Google, the biggest search engine and internet company on the planet:

Who is tennis greatest of all time ?

There isn't a single consensus "greatest of all time" (GOAT) in tennis, but Novak Djokovic is often cited as the greatest male player due to his record 24 Grand Slam titles, Olympic gold, and numerous other achievements. In women's tennis, Serena Williams holds the Open Era record for Grand Slam singles titles and is widely considered a GOAT contender for her dominance and cultural impact.

 

[junior74]

"While "greatest tennis player ever" is subjective, Martina Navratilova is widely considered one of the greatest, if not the greatest, due to her exceptional record of 59 Grand Slam titles, 167 singles titles, and 177 doubles titles. She is the only player to hold the world No. 1 ranking in both singles and doubles for over 200 weeks and holds records for most total top-level titles in the Open Era and most Wimbledon singles titles"

 

[Razer]

Ok, I ask Google, the biggest search engine and internet company on the planet:

Who is tennis greatest of all time ?

There isn't a single consensus "greatest of all time" (GOAT) in tennis, but Novak Djokovic is often cited as the greatest male player due to his record 24 Grand Slam titles, Olympic gold, and numerous other achievements. In women's tennis, Serena Williams holds the Open Era record for Grand Slam singles titles and is widely considered a GOAT contender for her dominance and cultural impact.

Good point, this shows Djokovic is catching up on Federer in the consensus.

 

[dr325i]

Graf was a vulture who vultured 11 slams after Monica Seles was stabbed and she also vultured 8-9 slams before seles arrived, evert-navratilova were old and in 30s then.... Graf never had any rivals...

Secondly, men and womens tennis cannot be put together if they did not play together.

thirdly, no one mentioned the GOAT term and I do not believe that is the goal of the OP
fourthly, Phillapousis, Baggy, Hewitt, 35yi Agassi, Gonzo, 0-13 Roddick are the toughest crowd to face in 50% of Slams you won (first 10 of RF slams were the definition of vulturing)... Instead, the timing, right sponsor, right origin....work the wonders...no matter the all arrogance in the world...

 

[dr325i]

Royals are the Patrons of Wimbledon, they know a thing or 2 about Tennis.

There is a reason why Federer watched tennis matches with Kate Middleton in the royal box, I dont think Djoko or Nadal would be allowed to sit with her, this is because they perceive Federer as the Best Player and the true Royalty of Tennis.

Or because he won W more than anyone else and is considered the GOAT of Wimbledon by...all?

 

[dr325i]

Sorry, the fans will say Djokovic - they know the facts.

The "facts" are very simple to present. What he presented is anything by the facts and PURE subjectivity...

 

[Razer]

thirdly, no one mentioned the GOAT term and I do not believe that is the goal of the OP
fourthly, Phillapousis, Baggy, Hewitt, 35yi Agassi, Gonzo, 0-13 Roddick are the toughest crowd to face in 50% of Slams you won (first 10 of RF slams were the definition of vulturing)... Instead, the timing, right sponsor, right origin....work the wonders...no matter the all arrogance in the world...

Difference is

The 80s and 90s were not transition era, Graf just had bad competition.

However, the early-mid 2000s was a transition era in Tennis for the ATP, thus Philip, Hewitt, Gonzo etc could all be said to be the victims of this phase, Federer himself could be said to be a victim in the broad sense but in the true sense those players suffered more in the presence of Federer and stuck in the wrong era, they would have done better if they were born 6-7 years later with their primes falling into the baseline era.

 

[messiahrobins]

It is better to be godly in that 1 dimension than be a versatile loser. Nadal demonstrated it very well, his gamestyle of chasing backhands with moonballing has given him 14 french opens, brought down Federer's empire and humiliated him. Seles also brought down Graf on all the surfaces except Wimbledon and her 2008 Nadal wimbledon moment would also have happened maybe in 94 or 95 had she not been taking out of the picture.

Sorry, Steffi Graff cannot be taken seriously due to this. I can even consider Margaret Court's numbers because they are legit but Graff is asterisked.

For me Serena is the WTA GOAT but if someone says Court then I won't argue much.

Serena had no comeptition and a number of hers were fixed between her and her sister. I dont have Serena in my top 5. Graf destroyed Seles ultimately as she worked her out.

Top 3 for me Graf, Navratilova and Evert.

 

[Razer]

Serena had no comeptition and a number of hers were fixed between her and her sister. I dont have Serena in my top 5. Graf destroyed Seles ultimately as she worked her out.

Top 3 for me Graf, Navratilova and Evert.

Graf has only 11 proper slams my friend, rest of them are asterisked

 

[boredone3456]

Fed was Majorly limited by Rafa at the French
Rafa was roadblocked by Fed/Novak in multiple finals to stop him from getting 3 of each.
Martina was blocked by Chrissie at the French
Chrissie was blocked by Martina at Wimbledon and the AO

Laver had the Pro Tour where he spent many years of his career instead of remaining amateur.

In all of their cases they were blocked by achieving the feat by another ATG

 

[messiahrobins]

Graf has only 11 proper slams my friend, rest of them are asterisked

Why are they asterisked? I get the argument given we put down Djokovic for the reasons you state, but remember i have Graf as GOAT mainly because of 1988. Why is 1988 asterisked?

 

[Razer]

Why are they asterisked? I get the argument given we put down Djokovic for the reasons you state, but remember i have Graf as GOAT mainly because of 1988. Why is 1988 asterisked?

Djokovic has no asterisk.

He is a winner, he won over Federer and Nadal. Federer has a disadvantage and probably would have emerged ahead of him if their ages were same but in today's reality he is not ahead, so Djokovic has won. He made Federer choke many times and Nadal himself was useless vs Novak. So there are no asterisks, 90s gen game him cheap slams but then he also fought Fedal before that in hsi 20s, so that kinda nullifies it. .... no Asterisks.

 

[ALCARAZWON]

Djokovic's biggest problem is that he was never the GOAT of a surface.
And the only grand slam event Djokovic holds the record for is the Australian Open which was not consistently attended by some of the best players in history.

Djokovic was never the hardcourt GOAT, because he doesn't hold the US Open record.
Roger Federer, Pete Sampras and Jimmy Connors have each won FIVE US Open titles.
Djokovic, Rafael Nadal and John McEnroe have each won FOUR US Open titles.
And Nadal did not play the US Open in 2012 and 2014 (when Nadal was the defending champion) and 2020 (when Nadal was the defending champion) and Nadal also missed 2021, 2023 and 2024 US Opens.
Nadal retired with a 2-1 head-to-head record vs. Djokovic at the US Open, and all THREE meetings were in the Final.

And Djokovic's AO titles don't give him hardcourt GOAT status, because the AO wasn't always taken seriously, and players preferred a break over Christmas and January (and even in 2023, world #1 Carlos Alcaraz chose not to play the AO).
Andre Agassi didn't participate in the AO until 1995 (whereas he played his first US Open in 1986).
And Jimmy Connors only played TWO AOs (won 1974, runner-up 1975).

So Djokovic has all-surface flexibility, but he'll never reach Nadal or Federer level of greatness.
And putting him on a list with Margaret Court doesn't help.

 

[Razer]

Djokovic's biggest problem is that he was never the GOAT of a surface.
And the only grand slam event Djokovic holds the record for is the Australian Open which was not consistently attended by some of the best players in history.

Djokovic was never the hardcourt GOAT, because he doesn't hold the US Open record.
Roger Federer, Pete Sampras and Jimmy Connors have each won FIVE US Open titles.
Djokovic, Rafael Nadal and John McEnroe have each won FOUR US Open titles.
And Nadal did not play the US Open in 2012 and 2014 (when Nadal was the defending champion) and 2020 (when Nadal was the defending champion) and Nadal also missed 2021, 2023 and 2024 US Opens.
Nadal retired with a 2-1 head-to-head record vs. Djokovic at the US Open, and all THREE meetings were in the Final.

And Djokovic's AO titles don't give him hardcourt GOAT status, because the AO wasn't always taken seriously, and players preferred a break over Christmas and January (and even in 2023, world #1 Carlos Alcaraz chose not to play the AO).
Andre Agassi didn't participate in the AO until 1995 (whereas he played his first US Open in 1986).
And Jimmy Connors only played TWO AOs (won 1974, runner-up 1975).

Yeah legit point but even Federer is no HC goat, so in a land of blind eyed men the 1 eye king is still a king.

Djokovic gets a slight lead over Federer as the HC goat, not that I believe he is that much better but he can get the nod. A poor one but it will do.

 

[ALCARAZWON]

Yeah legit point but even Federer is no HC goat, so in a land of blind eyed men the 1 eye king is still a king.

Djokovic gets a slight lead over Federer as the HC goat, not that I believe he is that much better but he can get the nod. A poor one but it will do.

Federer doesn't need to be hardcourt GOAT, because Federer is the grass GOAT with a record 8 Wimbledon titles.
Hardcourt doesn't have a GOAT, because Connors only played the AO twice, and Connors won the equal-most US Open titles.
Its not right to award Djokovic the hardcourt GOAT, when he's won less US Opens than Connors...
Point is, the lack of greatness in AO history, the absence of great players attending it, renders Djokovic's AO record irrelevant to GOAT consideration.

 

[gamelovergold]

British Royal Family?

Since when are they experts for tennis?

When somebody loses their mind then MURRAY becomes GOAT.
And indeed FEDRER has earned more but how money is a factor for greatness.
Player popularity is good for SPORTSMAN of the YEAR AWARD.

 

[messiahrobins]

Djokovic has no asterisk.

He is a winner, he won over Federer and Nadal. Federer has a disadvantage and probably would have emerged ahead of him if their ages were same but in today's reality he is not ahead, so Djokovic has won. He made Federer choke many times and Nadal himself was useless vs Novak. So there are no asterisks, 90s gen game him cheap slams but then he also fought Fedal before that in hsi 20s, so that kinda nullifies it. .... no Asterisks.

LOl, you have contradicted yourself. Djokovic 2023 is a massive asterisk using your arguments about Graf. W2022 is as well using your Graf arguments.

Nadal was useless against Djokovic makes no sense when he dominated there Slam matches 11-7. Perhaps in Qatar he was.

 

[Bertie B]

Djokovic was never the hardcourt GOAT, because he doesn't hold the US Open record.
Roger Federer, Pete Sampras and Jimmy Connors have each won FIVE US Open titles.
Djokovic, Rafael Nadal and John McEnroe have each won FOUR US Open titles.
And Nadal did not play the US Open in 2012 and 2014 (when Nadal was the defending champion) and 2020 (when Nadal was the defending champion) and Nadal also missed 2021, 2023 and 2024 US Opens.
Nadal retired with a 2-1 head-to-head record vs. Djokovic at the US Open, and all THREE meetings were in the Final.

First victory to last, here's the timespan between titles.

Federer: 5/5 (2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008) - Five for Five 100%

Nadal: 4/8 (2010, 2013, 2017, 2019) - Four in Eight...50%

Djokovic: 4/12 (2011, 2015, 2018, 2023) - Four in Twelve...33%

 

[Razer]

LOl, you have contradicted yourself. Djokovic 2023 is a massive asterisk using your arguments about Graf. W2022 is as well using your Graf arguments.

Nadal was useless against Djokovic makes no sense when he dominated there Slam matches 11-7. Perhaps in Qatar he was.

Nadal was old and out, that is not same as gunter parche attacking someone. Secondly, Djokovic himself was old in 2022-2023, so whatever he won is same as what Nadal won in those years, not much to compare. Low quality slams anyway. Both vultured.

 

[messiahrobins]

Nadal was old and out, that is not same as gunter parche attacking someone. Secondly, Djokovic himself was old in 2022-2023, so whatever he won is same as what Nadal won in those years, not much to compare. Low quality slams anyway. Both vultured.

I agree both vultured as did Federer post 2017 which is why for me the Big 3 era is defined by 2006-2014 really as when we end up comparing Sinneraz to the Big 3 thats the period we will be comparing against really.

 

[Razer]

I agree both vultured as did Federer post 2017 which is why for me the Big 3 era is defined by 2006-2014 really as when we end up comparing Sinneraz to the Big 3 thats the period we will be comparing against really.

2005-2015

 

[messiahrobins]

2005-2015

Nadal was woeful in 2015 and Federr way past his best by then. 2014 is probably stretching it tbh

 

[Razer]

Nadal was woeful in 2015 and Federr way past his best by then. 2014 is probably stretching it tbh

Yeah, well by that logic only 07FO-13USO even had a peak level ATG as a rival because Nadal before it and after it was not in his prime form for multiple surfaces, was either a baby or old and fed-novak dont overlap much, but no thats not how we should see things.

2014-2015 should be counted because Federer was still really good even if he was really old and way past his prime. 2016 onwards nothing counts.

 

[messiahrobins]

Yeah, well by that logic only 07FO-13USO even had a peak level ATG as a rival because Nadal before it and after it was not in his prime form for multiple surfaces, was either a baby or old and fed-novak dont overlap much, but no thats not how we should see things.

2014-2015 should be counted because Federer was still really good even if he was really old and way past his prime. 2016 onwards nothing counts.

Federer had lost a step though visibly as had Nadal...but i take your point about 07 as well, and Djokovic wasnt really at his best until 2008.

Ive said it before but for me the FO 2011 match Federer v Djokovic was pivotal in the Big 3 rivalry rankings. A slowly declining Federer beating undefeated Djokovic at his absolute peak in his best ever season on a clay court (Federer's worse surface) is one of the biggest reasons for me Djokovic will always be third of that Big 3 era.At that level one match can be pivotal, such as W2008.