Court pace index

#1
Too many separate posts asking about court paces, wouldn't it be better if we put all relevant info here? Here's the latest one out today. Miami is actually faster than IW this year. It's interesting as it doesn't quite fall in line with players' observations.



Miami has been getting slightly faster over the years.



Day by Day breakdown this year: commentators suggesting court speed should speed up as the tournament progresses



Also is it just me or the whole court pace deal is getting picked up lot more by the officials and media etc? I don't remember court speeds dissected so much in past years (there were more TT rants however :p)
 
#6
Too many separate posts asking about court paces, wouldn't it be better if we put all relevant info here? Here's the latest one out today. Miami is actually faster than IW this year. It's interesting as it doesn't quite fall in line with players' observations.



Miami has been getting slightly faster over the years.



Day by Day breakdown this year: commentators suggesting court speed should speed up as the tournament progresses



Also is it just me or the whole court pace deal is getting picked up lot more by the officials and media etc? I don't remember court speeds dissected so much in past years (there were more TT rants however :p)
LOL! The weirdest thing about it is that underground posted in the other thread only a few days ago. It would be good if you could add the relevant info over there or if you want to claim ownership take the stuff from there and put it here.
 
#7
LOL! The weirdest thing about it is that underground posted in the other thread only a few days ago. It would be good if you could add the relevant info over there or if you want to claim ownership take the stuff from there and put it here.
Yeah I realised after clicking that thread again hahaha. Probably been too active on TT the last week and just forgot about the thread amongst my various other replies. :p

It's probably easier to merge the threads together (mods/TT gods would you kindly please :) )
 

haqq777

Hall of Fame
#8
Remember seeing this before Nadal/Kohlschreiber match today. Was intrigued. I do know that traditionally Miami has been slower than IW. Very intrigued to see it faster this year. IW was definitely quick this year so I dont know how much I trust this. All the commentators and spectators I came across were saying the same thing (IW was considerably faster than usual).
 
#9
Remember seeing this before Nadal/Kohlschreiber match today. Was intrigued. I do know that traditionally Miami has been slower than IW. Very intrigued to see it faster this year. IW was definitely quick this year so I dont know how much I trust this. All the commentators and spectators I came across were saying the same thing (IW was considerably faster than usual).
It's a thread about the COURT speed. NOT the CONDITIONS speed!!!!
 

haqq777

Hall of Fame
#11
It's a thread about the COURT speed. NOT the CONDITIONS speed!!!!
Makes you wonder how useful the info is then if court pace is not indicative of ball speed. If court is indexed as fast and conditions make the ball in play slower, what good is one variable in assessing speed of match play?
 
#13
Makes you wonder how useful the info is then if court pace is not indicative of match speed. If court is indexed as fast and conditions make the ball in play slower, what good is one variable in assessing speed?
Right, so of course we must discuss that, but at the same time we can't always truly equate court pace/speed with the overall speed of the conditions. Also, we on this forum should probably stop thinking of everything as fast and slow because sometimes it's more about an unusual configuration of factors producing a unique set of conditions.
 
#14
Then how can we make comparison with other courts regardless of conditions?
Well, these ratings are still useful in comparing a tournament within its own history and also in looking at general changing trends year on year. We can see clearly that Paris and London (O2) were made substantially faster in 2016. With outdoor tournaments, more things come into play.
 

haqq777

Hall of Fame
#15
Right, so of course we must discuss that, but at the same time we can't always truly equate court pace/speed with the overall speed of the conditions. Also, we on this forum should probably stop thinking of everything as fast and slow because sometimes it's more about an unusual configuration of factors producing a unique set of conditions.
Hence the posit that court pace alone is just one variable of the equation and not exactly indicative of anything in terms of fast or slow.
 

haqq777

Hall of Fame
#16
Well, these ratings are still useful in comparing a tournament within its own history and also in looking at general changing trends year on year. We can see clearly that Paris and London (O2) were made substantially faster in 2016. With outdoor tournaments, more things come into play.
Just the second graph breaking down the court speed by year, if you want to compare historical speeds of courts. The first graph showing court speeds is breaking down court pace by each tournament. Pretty useless given it is ONE variable. The last graph is breaking down court pace by day. Again, single variable, not indicative of the complete picture.
 
#17
Hence the posit that court pace alone is just one variable of the equation and not exactly indicative of anything in terms of fast or slow.
I think as a guideline it's OK, in that if you look at the charts and such, generally the lowest scoring events (clay) do play slower than the slow HC events which are playing slower than the likes of Cinci, Shanghai. We can at least track one fairly important variable, so I'd say there is some use to this and it will be good to track these things for sure. Obviously, we could do with having much more data, such as knowing precisely what balls are used at each event (maybe this is something already available??) and knowing the properties of those balls and their behaviour, as well as knowing the general bounciness of the courts and such. Then, of course, weather comes into play, which is why I say that the time of day is more important than mental strength (lol).
 

haqq777

Hall of Fame
#18
I think as a guideline it's OK, in that if you look at the charts and such, generally the lowest scoring events (clay) do play slower than the slow HC events which are playing slower than the likes of Cinci, Shanghai. We can at least track one fairly important variable, so I'd say there is some use to this and it will be good to track these things for sure. Obviously, we could do with having much more data, such as knowing precisely what balls are used at each event (maybe this is something already available??) and knowing the properties of those balls and their behaviour, as well as knowing the general bounciness of the courts and such. Then, of course, weather comes into play, which is why I say that the time of day is more important than mental strength (lol).
Agreed.
 
#20
Too many separate posts asking about court paces, wouldn't it be better if we put all relevant info here? Here's the latest one out today. Miami is actually faster than IW this year. It's interesting as it doesn't quite fall in line with players' observations.



Miami has been getting slightly faster over the years.



Day by Day breakdown this year: commentators suggesting court speed should speed up as the tournament progresses



Also is it just me or the whole court pace deal is getting picked up lot more by the officials and media etc? I don't remember court speeds dissected so much in past years (there were more TT rants however :p)
Its a good thing that this is being picked up by the media more. I think it is a positively shameful thing that Indian Wells is nearly as slow as the European Red Clay Masters 1000's.
 

Sereger

Hall of Fame
#21
I hope they can do more than just measuring court pace year by year, with the change is only 3 unit as max. Court speed is a multivariate outcome that worth investigated adequately.
 
#22
I think as a guideline it's OK, in that if you look at the charts and such, generally the lowest scoring events (clay) do play slower than the slow HC events which are playing slower than the likes of Cinci, Shanghai. We can at least track one fairly important variable, so I'd say there is some use to this and it will be good to track these things for sure. Obviously, we could do with having much more data, such as knowing precisely what balls are used at each event (maybe this is something already available??) and knowing the properties of those balls and their behaviour, as well as knowing the general bounciness of the courts and such. Then, of course, weather comes into play, which is why I say that the time of day is more important than mental strength (lol).
The bounciness of the court is factored into the court pace formula.

CPR basically takes into account two things:
  1. The coefficient of friction (μ): roughly speaking, this measures how much horizontal speed is lost when the ball hits the surface. The less speed it loses, the lower the coefficient of friction and the faster the court is deemed to be
  2. The coefficient of restitution (e): this basically measures how much vertical speed is lost when the ball hits the surface. The higher the ball bounces, the slower the court is. This variable is temperature-adjusted
http://www.itftennis.com/technical/courts/court-testing/court-pace.aspx
 
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#23
The most significant variables CPR does not take into consideration are the balls and the how the players feel (mostly due to weather conditions).

Miami is significantly more humid than Indian Wells, causing the conditions to feel "heavier" due to muscle fatigue.
 
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#24
The most significant variables CPR does not take into consideration are the balls and the how the players feel (mostly due to weather conditions).

Miami is significantly more humid than Indian Wells, causing the conditions to feel "heavier" due to muscle fatigue.
koenig said the ratings are done taking everything into account, i.e. they are done on the site with the balls. Even at night when conditions cooler, there is no way Miami is this fast compared to other tournaments.

It just cannot be that Miami is way faster than Indian Wells and almost on par with Cincy, when taking all conditions into account. Something seems fishy.
 

Sereger

Hall of Fame
#25
The most significant variables CPR does not take into consideration are the balls and the how the players feel (mostly due to weather conditions).

Miami is significantly more humid than Indian Wells, causing the conditions to feel "heavier" due to muscle fatigue.
So can we expect ball flies faster in the beginning of match and gradually slower when match progresses
 
#27
Too many separate posts asking about court paces, wouldn't it be better if we put all relevant info here? Here's the latest one out today. Miami is actually faster than IW this year. It's interesting as it doesn't quite fall in line with players' observations.



Miami has been getting slightly faster over the years.



Day by Day breakdown this year: commentators suggesting court speed should speed up as the tournament progresses



Also is it just me or the whole court pace deal is getting picked up lot more by the officials and media etc? I don't remember court speeds dissected so much in past years (there were more TT rants however :p)
OP how you came up with these numbers
 
#28
koenig said the ratings are done taking everything into account, i.e. they are done on the site with the balls. Even at night when conditions cooler, there is no way Miami is this fast compared to other tournaments.

It just cannot be that Miami is way faster than Indian Wells and almost on par with Cincy, when taking all conditions into account. Something seems fishy.
Yeah.

Watching most of the matches so far from different players, but I watched all of Fedr-Tiafoe and Fedr's shots were not penetrating the way they were at IW. I watched Verdasco-Nishikori most of the match and same problem. Guys are getting a lot more second chances to get a ball that would normally be a winner-unreturned shot. It's not like clay where you have to hit 5-6 winners just to win a point, but it's a lot slower than IW by far.

There's just no way Miami is playing this fast. I watched Fedr smack forehands and backhands that the surface just pretty much suppressed any momentum of the ball on the bounce. The humidity has already been playing a factor.
 
#29
Too many separate posts asking about court paces, wouldn't it be better if we put all relevant info here? Here's the latest one out today. Miami is actually faster than IW this year. It's interesting as it doesn't quite fall in line with players' observations.



Miami has been getting slightly faster over the years.



Day by Day breakdown this year: commentators suggesting court speed should speed up as the tournament progresses



Also is it just me or the whole court pace deal is getting picked up lot more by the officials and media etc? I don't remember court speeds dissected so much in past years (there were more TT rants however :p)
The problem with "Court Pace Index" (beside that other factors like air, elevation, humidity are equally important for defining "playing condition") is thet they put together two different thing and make it just one. They use speed and bounce and put it togather. So two courts with exactly same CPI could play (and play) totally different and "fast" (high speed, higher bounce) is not the same as "fast" (lower speed, low bounce).

For more information this is amazing article about it - https://fogmountaintennis.wordpress.com/2014/04/11/court-speed/
 
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