Court speed homogenization blah! It's all a myth... here is the proof!

The_Order

G.O.A.T.

There you have it... courts were sped up in the Jawkovic era! Take that Fed fans :-D

*disclaimer - this one is almost as delusional as his Roger 2013 > Roger 2004 due to ELO rating vid
 

beltsman

G.O.A.T.

There you have it... courts were sped up in the Jawkovic era! Take that Fed fans :-D

*disclaimer - this one is almost as delusional as his Roger 2013 > Roger 2004 due to ELO rating vid
So I guess Federer is the more complete player because he won multiple slams in both fast and slow eras (accordingly to this guy)? Whereas fast court specialist Djokovic needed the courts sped up in order to win more? Makes sense to me
 

ADuck

Legend

There you have it... courts were sped up in the Jawkovic era! Take that Fed fans :-D

*disclaimer - this one is almost as delusional as his Roger 2013 > Roger 2004 due to ELO rating vid
Where is this guy getting all his court speed stats
 

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
I tend to watch lots and lots of highlights. I have always and I mean always felt that early 2000s courts were faster, and it's not the aspect ratio of the videos, it's how the players react to the ball.

Case in point : 2003 USO F, watched an hour of it last week, and it gave me pure Paris Masters feel. It was almost as if balls sped up upon bouncing.
 

pj80

Legend

There you have it... courts were sped up in the Jawkovic era! Take that Fed fans :-D

*disclaimer - this one is almost as delusional as his Roger 2013 > Roger 2004 due to ELO rating vid
Roger was better 2014-2018 than 2004-2008. Just by watching him play...so it doesn't surprise me that ELO rating would confirm that
 

initialize

Hall of Fame
Didn’t watch the video but that video creator is literally the dumbest tennis “fan” I’ve ever witnessed. Doesn’t he have an account here as well?
 

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
Roger was better 2014-2018 than 2004-2008. Just by watching him play...so it doesn't surprise me that ELO rating would confirm that
Let alone 2004-08. Watch any of Fraud's 2012 matches against the big 4 and you will see how much more competent he is from the baseline. Even in losing efforts like 2012 AO SF and YEC F he gave better competition from the baseline than what later years Fraud did on his best days. Later year fraud had stronger service game and forecourt presence maybe, but in baseline era that will never bring success.

Even 2017 Nose wasn't playing the suicidal tennis of 2014-16. He went back to being aggressive off of the baseline.
 

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.

There you have it... courts were sped up in the Jawkovic era! Take that Fed fans :-D

*disclaimer - this one is almost as delusional as his Roger 2013 > Roger 2004 due to ELO rating vid
Do I detect a Serbian accent here? Lol
Seriously though, entertaining and provocative video. Love it!

What stat reflects « court speed » if there is no official data?
 

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
I tend to watch lots and lots of highlights. I have always and I mean always felt that early 2000s courts were faster, and it's not the aspect ratio of the videos, it's how the players react to the ball.

Case in point : 2003 USO F, watched an hour of it last week, and it gave me pure Paris Masters feel. It was almost as if balls sped up upon bouncing.
Thé eye test is not a stat
 

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
Thé eye test is not a stat
And Milos Raonic is a club player with lesser intellect and insight about court speeds than a YouTube guy

Milos Raonic is among the players who find the grass courts have slowed down at Wimbledon, saying that it seems to be a deliberate effort to slow down play.

The 28-year-old Canadian has noticed a large drop during the previous couple of years.

"From the first years I have played here, I think it's made that gradual decline in speed of the court," he said. "And I don't think it plays any faster than any of the other Slams that's for sure.

Burguera know less about courts of 90s and 2000s than some rando with a YouTube account

“I would have won a lot more titles if I was playing in this era," Sergi Bruguera, who won back-to-back French Open titles in 1993-94 and ushered in an era of Spanish dominance on clay, remarked when he was in India for the inaugural edition of the Champions Tennis League (17-24 November). “All courts (now) play at the same pace, so there’s not too many adjustments you need to make to your game. That’s why you see the same players winning on all surfaces."

Fraud must be going senile and his 24-25 year worth of experience must be a less worth than a YouTube account.

“Sometimes people still think clay is slow. It’s not that slow – it’s actually mostly faster than hard courts nowadays. Unless you go to Cincinnati and Shanghai potentially, and a couple of indoor events.


“But other than that, I feel like if you’re playing on a day where it’s actually quite warm – clay can actually be somewhat on the faster side.


“Now obviously what comes into play is bad bounces, sliding, and you can go far back, especially on the centre court [at Roland Garros] because there’s so much room.”
 

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
Thé eye test is not a stat
You know what ticks me off when people say stuff like this? You folks have been watching the sport for decades. Dedicated hours and hours to watching it.

You don't need numbers to tell you something that is so intuitive. Trust me as someone going into the field of data science, numbers can be impacted by millions of things and be less insightful than even an immature eye test.
 

pj80

Legend
Let alone 2004-08. Watch any of Fraud's 2012 matches against the big 4 and you will see how much more competent he is from the baseline. Even in losing efforts like 2012 AO SF and YEC F he gave better competition from the baseline than what later years Fraud did on his best days. Later year fraud had stronger service game and forecourt presence maybe, but in baseline era that will never bring success.

Even 2017 Nose wasn't playing the suicidal tennis of 2014-16. He went back to being aggressive off of the baseline.
I agree, I think 2012er was better than 2004-2009erer too.
I think the main reason is competition increased with the other big 4 and it made Fed improve.
 

Kralingen

G.O.A.T.
LOL this is the guy who made the Federer Djokovic era comparisons and that “Nadal still fails with all the help”

he does more for TTW than any singular poster tbh.

Pointless though, court speed discussions never go anywhere because there’s no definitive data. Why there isn’t real comprehensive CPI and actual speed measurements released by the tour?
 

Clay lover

Hall of Fame
I feel that to defend a certain player's achievements we shouldn't play into the logic outlined by his detractors. Saying surfaces haven't slowed down and Djokodal can also do well on faster surfaces is essentially playing into their hands and conceding that faster somehow = more legitimate.

Instead you should question why does it have to be this way? Tennis is a sport that constantly evolves and changes. Why didn't they say anything about the legitimacy of slams when three of the four slams were on grass? Does that somehow make wins on them less legitimate?
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
LOL this is the guy who made the Federer Djokovic era comparisons and that “Nadal still fails with all the help”

he does more for TTW than any singular poster tbh.

Pointless though, court speed discussions never go anywhere because there’s no definitive data. Why there isn’t real comprehensive CPI and actual speed measurements released by the tour?
Yeah I've always felt like that data should be available... it's only released sometimes which really confuses me as to why not just release it every time?
 

PMChambers

Hall of Fame
Did watch but I assume this is about the 2000s v 2010s. The homogenization is about 2000d onwards vs prior. This is due to,
# Slowing Wimbledon from the 90s to 00s
# Removal of carpet. (Esp End Year)
# Removal of wood (Wembly)
# Increase grit in the US.

# Lesser extent US & AO grass to HC 70s & 80s
Some courts have sped up but the peak speed has been lowered. It's just a few fast courts exist and no v.fast exist [wood&carpet]
Poly has changed tennis more than any surface changes, though the effects compound.
 

nov

Professional
Djokovic is very good at fast surfaces. He can play slow surfaces too, but hes much better at faster surfaces AO/WM. Slower surfaces only can help Nadal to moonball everyone.
 

weakera

Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic is very good at fast surfaces. He can play slow surfaces too, but hes much better at faster surfaces AO/WM. Slower surfaces only can help Nadal to moonball everyone.
Nadal's moonball effectiveness has nothing to do with the speed of the court, it can be aided by a livelier court or balls which result in higher bounces.
 
Where is this guy getting all his court speed stats
Yeah I've always felt like that data should be available... it's only released sometimes which really confuses me as to why not just release it every time?
Because probably less then 1% of fans has any interest in court speed data. Though, that in itself may be because data is not presented transparently.
 

RS

Talk Tennis Guru
I am no court speed expert but big hitter can make a court look faster.

People used to think RA was fast after seeing somebody like Safin play for example.
 

RS

Talk Tennis Guru
Roger was better 2014-2018 than 2004-2008. Just by watching him play...so it doesn't surprise me that ELO rating would confirm that
Was Murray better in 2012/2013/2015/2016 than Nadal in 2005/2006/2007/2008?
 
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