Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by BeHappy, Feb 13, 2008.
they don't even have winners/unforced errors
I know; I sure like to track the winners/uf errors.
Be carefull too about titles on the website...
What do you mean titles? Stats for titles for players? Are there errors in those?
Yes, there are differences between players profiles and atp events at least... besides that, if you enter in the tournament webs, you may see differences too...
And many many tournaments between 1972 and 1981 are not recognized by the ATP...
I just came across an error regarding Pat Cash's profile on atptennis. They say he won 7 career titles including 1982 & 1983 Melbourne. But when you look up his player activity, they just repeat his draw & scores for winning 1982 Melbourne for 1983 Melbourne as well.
There was no Melbourne event in 1983, according to the results archive page for 1983(also confirmed this with my old ATP guide)
So Cash has only 6 titles, not 7.
Kinda surprised they could make that kind of mistake, Cash is a big name, not some obscure player.
And when Cash made his first Australian Open final against Edberg in 1987, the ESPN announcers said that he'd made all three of his previous tournament finals in Australia. Going by the ATP site, those three would be Melbourne 1982, Brisbane 1983, and Melbourne Indoor 1984.
That's just to say that there was no confusion back then.
What surprises me is that basic mistakes like that are not corrected. We can't be the first ones looking at the profile.
It's hard to know how responsive you can expect them to be. I contacted them last year about a mistaken scoreline. Lendl d. Hlasek at the 1989 Dallas WCT, 7-6 (5), 1-6, 7-6 (4), 6-7 (0), 7-6 (5), as reported in the Dallas Morning News. That's four tiebreaks -- something also mentioned by the SCORE announcers calling Lendl's semifinal against McEnroe. But the ATP site still lists the last two sets as 6-2, 7-5: http://www.atptennis.com/3/en/players/headtohead/default.asp?playernum1=L018&playernum2=H025.
And of course, there was that other mistaken scoreline for Borg-Laver at Forest Hills which you pointed out.
That's a pretty strange mistake. Not that the incorrect Borg-Laver score is excusable or anything, but I can at least see what must have happened in that situation(they just forgot to include the score of the last set)
But this is weird, going from 67, 76 to 62, 75?
Also, its a shame they don't have tiebreak scores included for older matches on that site(or itf)
I'm really curious to see some of the 'sudden death' tiebreak scores of the early to mid 70s, esp at the USO.
As far as 'responsive' goes, I think I emailed them at least one year ago about Laver-Borg, Vilas-Nastase(incorrect score for the '74 Masters final) & several FO matches from the early 70s that are missing final set scores & none have been fixed yet.
I see on wikepedia, they took the incorrect score of that Vilas-Nastase match from the atp site as well. I don't have an account there or I would edit it.
Wikepedia also lists Cash as having 7 titles.
did you do stats for that?
Wow, they put crap stats on the ATP site? Damn, like, volume/quality of stool and everything or just the number of times per day the pros go for a crap?
Well, in any case, I am impressed.
Wonder of they list urine stats, too.
A while ago I counted the fifth-set winners, since ESPN gave totals for the first four sets. That was before I realized that the network totals might include aces and service winners. Only later when I did the 84 Wimb final and saw NBC including aces among the winners, did I realize that there's no way to do this other than counting from the beginning.
(There is one exception, which you did with the Edberg-Mecir match. There, NBC gave a breakdown of the winners by stroke; when that information is provided you can separate the service category from the rest of the winners).
For what it's worth, ESPN had Edberg at 54 winners after four sets, and Cash at 48. I counted 10 non-service winners for each man in the fifth set.
Regarding the tie-break scores. For a time (Better different times) the Forest Hills and WCT events had tiebreakers with the internal score 5-4 or 7-6, reagrdless serve or return. That could lead to the point, that both players could have machtpoint at the same time. Wimbledon in 71 to something like 74-5 had tiebreaks at 8 all in a set, but never for the 5th set.
Veeery funny [sarcasm, if you don't recognize it]
Connors: 4 titles included in the ATP Players Guide, not included in the website. Borg, one title that's missing (WCT Challenge Montreal 78 or 79). Nastase, three WCT Challenge Cups won.
Atp don't "register" the WCT Challenge Cup, a very important tournament of that times, won for example by Borg in 79, Mc Enroe in 80, Nastase in 76 and 78.
That's means Borg and Vilas have 62 titles, and in the player profile Bjorn have 61 and Willy 62.
And won by Connors in 1977, I forget.
Yes, in 77 Connors won the WCT Challenge Cup.
And in 79 Connors won the WCT Tournament of Champions played in Dorado Beach.
Those tournies aren't included in the ATP players profiles, of course.
And oldy, you forget WCT Challenge Cup of 75, won by Nastase too, but in 1976.
Q&M, I see that the '74 Masters final score is corrected, did you do that?
any chance you can mention the incorrect score on Laver-Borg '75 USO?
also Connors 109 titles aren't listed(only 106)
and Cash's profile is still incorrect.
Moose, I have good feedback with one man from ATP...
When you said to me the result from Vilas I write to ATP, and soon it fix up, but maybe not for me...
Look in this threads, soon Jimbo will have at least 108 titles in ATP Player Bio:
Look now, they fix it up!
From wiki, Carlo Colussi:
"Do not forget that tennis has existed for a century before the ATP and that the ATP statistics of the start of the open era are very incomplete : for instance for 1969 the ATP Website just shows three meetings (Australian, Philadelphia and US Opens) between Roche and Laver whereas in reality Roche led Laver 5-4 that year : January 19, Roche won the New South Wales Open in Sydney 64 46 97 1210 over Laver in the final ; January 25 or 26, Laver beat Roche in the semifinal of the Australian Open, Brisbane, 75 2220 911 16 63 ; February 3, Roche b Laver in the New Zealand Open final, Auckland, 61 64 46 63 ; February 9, Philadelphia Open final, Laver b Roche 75 64 64 ; February 13 or 18, Hollywood (Florida) Pro final, Roche b Laver 63 97 64 ; February 26 or 27 or 28, Oakland Pro final, Roche b Laver 46 64 119 ; May, Amsterdam Pro 3rd place, Roche b Laver 63 36 62 ; September 7, US Open, Forest Hills, final, Laver b Roche 79 61 61 62 ; November 22 or 23, Wills Open Covered Courts, Queen's Club & Wembley Arena Laver b Roche 64 61 63.
Many tournaments of that era are missing, for example the Dunlop Sydney Open in March 1970 (winner Laver) or the 1973-1974 New South Wales Championships (winner Mal Anderson and Tony Roche) or the 1970 US Indoor Open tournament in Salisbury (winner Nastase) or the 1970 Wembley Pro tournament (winner Laver).
So the ATP statistics being very incomplete until the 70s other statistics shall not be considered as unofficial. Though the ATP claims that Connors is the player having won the most titles (105) it is completely untrue : Rod Laver (with at least 181 wins), Bill Tilden, Jaroslav Drobny and Ken Rosewall have won more tournaments than Connors. ATP statistics are just open era statistics far from being exhaustive for the first years of that open era and ATP Statistics are not the only official statistics."
From wiki too:
"Moreover the ATP doesn't incorporate some special events of the 70s in particular those held by the WCT organization. So I have added 8 (at least) tournaments not listed by the ATP in the article and I have slightly erased the expression "ATP Tour" in Connors's list of wins. The ATP tour has really existed since 1990. Before there were several independant circuits. For instance in 1968 there were 1) the amateur circuit held by the International Lawn Tennis Federation (ILTF) and the national federations, 2) the National Tennis League (NTL) circuit held by the organization of the same name for its professionals under contract, 3) the World Championships of Tennis (WCT) circuit held by the WCT promoters and 4) the Open circuit. In the first half of the 70s there were mainly three circuits : the Grand Prix (GP) circuit (ILTF), the WCT circuit and the U.S. Indoor circuit run by Riordan, future Connors's manager. In the second half of the 70s and the first half of the 80s only the GP and WCT circuits existed. In particular with the ending of the WCT circuit and the players's need to control their own circuit, the ATP tour was created at the end of the 80s and the first one was held in 1990. Since players have lost much control. Then the "ATP tour" is not very adequate because Connors has not truly played that circuit.
So ATP statistics could be a better expression."
Fully agree (is Carlo?)
This is correct?
Borg now with 63 titles, they include Auckland or Salisbury??? Look player profile...
Recently ITF recognizes in their website WCT Invitational 80 & 81, so I break ATP balls again... and... get it!!!!
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