Creatine Safety

[Ano]

Because I saw so many confusion in this forum about Creatine, I will spend time to clarify about Creatine safety in this post.

Since creatine was first introduced in the early 90's, it has been the "poster boy" for the athletic community, and it's not going away anytime soon.

Creatine has been in the news, on the cover of almost every health magazine imaginable and even on TV.

Ask good strength coaches and trainers to name the best supplement for increasing size and strength, and they will cite creatine.


What Is Creatine?

Creatine (methyl guanidine-acetic acid [NH2 - C(NH) - NCH2(COOH) - CH3]) is a combination of three different amino acids, glycine, arginine, and methionine. It is produced by the liver and can be found in foods such as meat and fish, usually at a concentration of four grams per kilogram of meat. Most people ingest about one gram of creatine per day and the body makes about one gram of creatine per day.

When creatine is taken in the form of a supplement it has several benefits for hard training athletes. After creatine is ingested it bonds with a phosphate group to form creatine phosphate. CP (creatine phosphate) can then donate a phosphate molecule to ADP (adenosine tri-phosphate) to form ATP (adenosine tri-phosphate).

ATP is the energy currency of the cell and is used to drive almost all cellular functions and is a crucial molecule in muscular contraction.

Supplementing with creatine increases the body's ATP production thus enhancing performance and decreasing fatigue in intense, short duration activities such as weightlifting and sprinting (NCAA).

Another benefit of creatine to athletes is its ability to hydrate muscle cells. Creatine pulls fluid from outside the muscle cell into the cell. This increase in water retention by the cell also causes more ions such as Nitrogen to be pulled into the cell, which increases muscle protein synthesis.

This increase in muscle protein synthesis allows athletes to recover from exercise faster and in turn grow more muscle(5). One can easily see the obvious benefit of creatine supplementation to athletes who engage in high intensity sports that require quick bursts of energy or athletes that merely want to improve their strength and speed.

Long Term Side Effects?

Opponents of creatine supplementation cite several reasons for not using creatine. The NCAA banned the distribution of creatine by college's to their athletes "because of the lack of long-term studies on possible side effects
(6)."

They claim that since creatine is a relatively new supplement there is no way to tell whether or not it has any long-term side effects. This statement is misleading as it is only recently that creatine has become popular, however creatine itself has been around for quite some time.

Steven Scott Plisk, director of sports conditioning at Yale University says, "it has been used in the United Kingdom since the early 1980's without any problems... if creatine caused long-term side effects, there would be indicators in the shorter studies.

With anabolic steroids, you see some signs in the short term that warn you about what's coming in the long term, and you don"t see any of that with creatine (7)."

There have been several studies conducted on creatine supplementation, which concluded that long term creatine use has no side effects (8 and 9).

Cramping And Dehydration?

Some coaches claim that creatine has caused dehydration and muscle cramps among their athletes. Ross Bailey, head athletic trainer at Texas Christian University believes that creatine is the cause of frequent cramping and pulled hamstrings among athletes at Texas Christian. "We have no scientific evidence, but the use of creatine is the only thing that has changed" says Bailey(4).

There is no scientific evidence to support his claims as he states, there are only anecdotal reports. The cause of muscle cramps and dehydration are both due to inadequate water consumption, not creatine supplementation. There is scientific evidence to verify that creatine does not cause dehydration or muscle cramps among college athletes.

Two similar studies on creatine's effects were conducted upon college athletes by the American Alliance for Health, Physical Education, Recreation and Dance (AAHPERD) which demonstrated creatine safety. One study looked at the side effects associated with creatine supplementation on Division I-A football players during 3-a-day practices.

The other study was almost exactly the same, the only difference being that Division I-A baseball players were studied during the fall collegiate baseball.

Both studies concluded that there were "no perceived side-effects or health-status problems associated with creatine supplementation" in the athletes during the time period in which they were examined(2 and 3).

Opponents of creatine supplementation sometimes try to discredit studies such as these by stating that they are only looking at a short period of time and cannot determine how creatine supplementation affects dehydration and muscle cramping in athletes over a long period of time. Once again, there is scientific evidence to counter their argument.

A study examined the relationship between adverse health effects and long-term creatine supplementation in athletes. The researchers concluded that there "were no differences in incidences of cramps, muscle injury, or side effects between athletes and controls (9)."

Kidney Problems?

Opponents of creatine supplementation also like to state that creatine is hard on the kidneys and can cause kidney damage with long term use. Once again, there is no scientific evidence to back up their claims. There is scientific evidence to refute these claims however.

A study examined whether or not oral creatine supplementation affected the kidneys of athletes over short-, medium-, and long-term periods of supplementation.

The researchers concluded that "no detrimental effects on athletes' kidney functions from short-, medium-, or long-term use of this supplement ( 8 )."

Conclusion

Within the past five years creatine has emerged as the top selling nutritional supplement in the world, Creatine sales totaled over 400 million dollars in last year alone! There is a good reason for this increase in creatine sales: it is safe and it works! There are a great number of studies touting it's effectiveness and its safety, however, over the past few years some people have questioned creatine's safety with opinions that are not verified by science.

Creatine safety and effectiveness has been supported in numerous peer-reviewed studies and many experts in the field of sports nutrition. How unfortunate it is that unfounded statements regarding creatine's safety by people looking to stir up controversy has caused the spread of misinformation throughout the country and has even led the NCAA to ban the distribution of creatine. Hopefully, in the years to come this wave of misinformation will be replaced by scientific reasoning and allow members in this forum to make educated decisions regarding creatine.

References

1. Sahelian, Ray. Creatine--just the FAQs ma'am. Better Nutrition. May 2000 v62 i5 p26

2. Kreider et. al. Perceived Fatigue Associated With Creatine Supplementation During the Fall Collegiate Baseball Series of Division I Players. Journal of Athletic Training. April-June 2001 v31 i2 pS 83.

3. Greenwood et. al. Perceived Health Status and Side-Effects Associated With Creatine Supplemenation of Division I-A Football Players During 3-a-Day Training. Research Quarterly for Exercise and Sport. March 2001 v72 i1 pA-29.

4. Huggins, Sally. Energy Supplement Stirs up Debate. The NCAA News. October 28, 1996. http://www.ncaa.org/news/1996/961028/active/3338n02.html

5. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise (New in Review). Journal of American Dietetic Association. May 2002 v102 i5 p740(2)

6. NCAA Clamps Down on Supplements (New NCAA rule disallowing creatine distribution draws criticism). Momentum Media. August/ September 2000. http://www.momentummedia.com/articles/am/am1205/bbsupplements.htm

7. Hawes, Kay. Creatine Boom Creates Administrative Challenges. The NCAA News. September 14, 1998. http://www.ncaa.org/news/1998/19980914/active/3532n03.html

8. Poortmans, Jacques R. and Marc Francaux. Long-term Oral Creatine Supplementation Does not Impair Renal Function in Healthy Athletes. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 31 (1999): 1108-1111.

9. Schilling, Brian K., et al. Creatine Supplementation and Health Variables: a Retrospective Study. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 33 (2001): 183-186

 

[bleno567]

awsome post, i learned alot about creatine

 

[xtremerunnerars]

Great post. Instead of emailing people all the stuff you have sent me, i can just point them to here!

 

[fearless1]

...been taking about 10 grams per day for past two years or so. The only times I've off cycled was when I ran out and didn't resupply for a while, 6 weeks at longest one time.

Benefits are real...no obvious problems to date (diarrhea, nausia, etc) and recent physical incuding detailed blood analysis revealed no problems either.

One criticism not listed in OP is possibility that the body loses the ability to manuf its own creatine after extended supply from external sources.

Creatine "stacked" with a protein supplement is very effective at promoting post workout/practice recuperation.

 

[TW CSR]

I was taking creatine for a while and did notice an increase in strength and endurance. I did experience some pretty painful stomach cramps while taking creatine which eventually made me stop taking it completely. I was drinking plenty of water during my workouts and my diet is very clean so the only think I could really point the finger at was the addition of creatine. Sure enough as soon as I stopped taking it my stomach craps went away. I also ended up dropping 10 lbs in about 2 months though so that was definitely a side effect.
I will most likely look into a creatine stacked protein product as others have suggested, there is not doubt that it works but saying there are no side effects is just wrong.

 

[ollinger]

Exactly. It would be difficult to think of ANYTHING metabolically or pharmacologically active that, when taken as a supplement, never has side effects. No side effects most often means....no effects.

 

[Nadal_Freak]

So creatine is a good thing or bad thing to take? Are the side effects that bad?

 

[donnyz89]

wow... this is funny, my friend that sits next to me in spanish chugs down a bottle of creatine every day... although he works out every day.

 

[Ano]

I was taking creatine for a while and did notice an increase in strength and endurance. I did experience some pretty painful stomach cramps while taking creatine which eventually made me stop taking it completely. I was drinking plenty of water during my workouts and my diet is very clean so the only think I could really point the finger at was the addition of creatine. Sure enough as soon as I stopped taking it my stomach craps went away. I also ended up dropping 10 lbs in about 2 months though so that was definitely a side effect.
I will most likely look into a creatine stacked protein product as others have suggested, there is not doubt that it works but saying there are no side effects is just wrong.

Hi, Creatine draws water away from the internal working organs and therefore if you take a lot with little water then a mild stomach cramp will occur.

How to avoid this?

I have a suggestions: drink 1 pint of water with every dose of creatine ( no more than 1 teaspoon per serving), and try using pure micronized creatine made by reputable company.

Good luck..

 

[Ano]

Exactly. It would be difficult to think of ANYTHING metabolically or pharmacologically active that, when taken as a supplement, never has side effects. No side effects most often means....no effects.

Yeah, right, but having a side effects doesn't automatically means that Creatine is not safe..

 

[Ano]

So creatine is a good thing or bad thing to take? Are the side effects that bad?

It depends.

If you want to gain strenght, exposive power and muscle mass, Creatine is a good thing to take.

There are surprisingly few side effects with creatine. If you take too much creatine without enough water, it may cause an upset stomach , or you may blow a hole in the back of your new track pants.

Taking too much creatine may also result in a little extra quality time with your toilet.

If you notice an upset stomach try reducing the serving size, drink 1 pint of water with every serving, and remember to always use Creatine that are made by reputable company (with Creapure on the label).

Just as there is a difference between $100 champagne and $15 dollar champagne, there's a difference between high-quality creatine and inferior-grade creatine. Traditionally, Chinese creatine is a lower quality product, with more contaminants such as creatinine, sodium, dicyandiamide, and dihydrotriazine. German creatine, from companies such as SKW (Creapure™), are cleaner, purer products.

Oh, I must remind all of members, individuals with pre-existing kidney problem should not take creatine .

 

[Ano]

wow... this is funny, my friend that sits next to me in spanish chugs down a bottle of creatine every day... although he works out every day.

What kind of creatine?

If your friend chugs down a bottle of liquid creatine everyday, he wastes his money.

If your friend chugs down a bottle of creatine powder everyday, he is crazy.!!:mrgreen:

 

[Ano]

Exactly. It would be difficult to think of ANYTHING metabolically or pharmacologically active that, when taken as a supplement, never has side effects. No side effects most often means....no effects.

Btw, pal, you were the one who said there's not enough evidence about the effectivenes of creatine and evidence suggest that creatine might be harmful to kidney. And when I asked you what evidence were you talking about, you didn't give me a reply.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=95198&page=4

Didn't you realize there are over 200 studies about the effectiveness and safety of creatine published in peer reviewed journals?

Try to search "creatine" on www.pubmed.com

I suggest you to check the facts before stating something next time..

 

[tricky]

Creatine's safe. Only question is . . . is creatine actually desirable while working on your conditioning?

 

[Ano]

Creatine's safe. Only question is . . . is creatine actually desirable while working on your conditioning?

Yup, Creatine is useful to someone who wants to gain strength, explosive power and muscle mass.

But it might not be helpful for a marathoner / long distance cyclist to decrease their time, eventhough it still might beuseful to decrease their inflamation.

 

[tricky]

It's a source of debate actually. The argument for creatine is that it improves the ATP-CP energy system and glycogen storage capacity. And this is good, of course, when you want to put on muscle or develop strength/explosive performance, as the strength adaptations partially comes from increasing your work output.

The argument against creatine is that a more efficient ATP-CP system means you have to impose even more stress upon it in order to force significant adaptations. Because conditioning is about pushing beyond your current capacity or anaerobic threshhold, creatine dampens that. Even taken into account the role of recovery, most conditioning schemes should not be imposing a lot of tissue damage anyway. And as a result, creatine may not be desirable during a conditioning phase until as a pre-loading phase.

One thing that's often forgotten about creatine's role is that it's merely one way of improving your ATP-CP efficiency. Lactate-based training programs -- where there are various systems available at T-mag -- are all explicitly designed to do this. If you do a program like Alessi's Meltdown training or Poliquin's German Body Composition progam, you wouldn't want to load on creatine during that period.

But when you come out of such a phase and into a strength/power phase, you may possibly reap more benefits from it, than a guy who hadn't done the prior work.

 

[Ano]

It's a source of debate actually. The argument for creatine is that it improves the ATP-CP energy system and glycogen storage capacity. And this is good, of course, when you want to put on muscle or develop strength/explosive performance, as the strength adaptations partially comes from increasing your work output.

The argument against creatine is that a more efficient ATP-CP system means you have to impose even more stress upon it in order to force significant adaptations. Because conditioning is about pushing beyond your current capacity or anaerobic threshhold, creatine dampens that. Even taken into account the role of recovery, most conditioning schemes should not be imposing a lot of tissue damage anyway. And as a result, creatine may not be desirable during a conditioning phase until as a pre-loading phase.

One thing that's often forgotten about creatine's role is that it's merely one way of improving your ATP-CP efficiency. Lactate-based training programs -- where there are various systems available at T-mag -- are all explicitly designed to do this. If you do a program like Alessi's Meltdown training or Poliquin's German Body Composition progam, you wouldn't want to load on creatine during that period.

But when you come out of such a phase and into a strength/power phase, you may possibly reap more benefits from it, than a guy who hadn't done the prior work.

Dude, have you got Creatine Report by Will Brink?

If you haven't, email me at ryano_tandayu@victoriabank.co.id , and i will send it to you, free of charge.

It is a very good reading material, especially for people like you, who clearly have knowledge in strength and conditioning.

 

[tricky]

Yup, I've read it.

Yeah, basically, what he's talking about is the prevailing hard science model for periodization -- the energetic theory. Among the bodybuilding set, there's an energetic theory for hypertrophy, which is where Zat and his crew talk about protein depletion/synthesis as a reaction to ATP-CP stress. The idea goes that creatine facilitates muscle growth by enabling your ATP-CP system to adapt very quickly/strongly to momentary fatigue. In life extension theory, the argument goes that creatine -- or effectively a super-efficient ATP-CP system -- lets your body run "cool" (this also goes with growth hormone levels during sleep.) And, so for example, the focus has moved away from calorie restriction and toward "efficient energy" bodies. And so on and so on.

Weekend athletes tend to see creatine as a supplement, but it's really a nutrient. So, yes, you could theoretically take in toxic levels of creatine, but what's going to limit you practically is the delivery system itself. Just like you'll probably get digestion issues if you took in actually dangerous amounts of vitamin A or C in one dose. And in most case, just like most nutrients, your body kinda disposes of whatever it doesn't want to use.

I'm ambivalent about puffing up creatine from this standpoint, because -- from the standpoint of energetic theory -- it's really the exercise, not the supplement, that gives you these magical benefits. If you want a super-efficient ATP-CP system, you gotta build one, not just make it run on super-high quality fuel.

Lactate threshhold training, used for the whole body, is energetic theory in practice. It makes you that athlete that can grind down your opponents, enables the middle-aged guy to cut down recovery time between games, and above all, it helps your body absorb food (including creatine) better.

For the T-mag set, LAT schemes include:

GVT, GBC (Poliquin)
EDT (Staley)
Meltdown (Alessi)
Tabatta
The Bear
20-rep squats
HIIT (though more limited because most people tend to just focus on legs)

Do EDT or Meltdown for a year, and you're going to feel like 1999 Agassi or Hewitt out there.

 

[Ano]

it's really the exercise, not the supplement, that gives you these magical benefits. If you want a super-efficient ATP-CP system, you gotta build one, not just make it run on super-high quality fuel.

Lactate threshhold training, used for the whole body, is energetic theory in practice. It makes you that athlete that can grind down your opponents, enables the middle-aged guy to cut down recovery time between games, and above all, it helps your body absorb food (including creatine) better.

For the T-mag set, LAT schemes include:

GVT, GBC (Poliquin)
EDT (Staley)
Meltdown (Alessi)
Tabatta
The Bear
20-rep squats
HIIT (though more limited because most people tend to just focus on legs)

Do EDT or Meltdown for a year, and you're going to feel like 1999 Agassi or Hewitt out there.

IMO the combination of exercise (good training program), good diet, good R&R and good supplementation (including creatine) will give you the magic result. Exercise without good diet, R&R and supplement, will only give marginal result.

Btw, I tried Poliquin Advanced GBC training program to some of my clients and the result was dramatic. The only problem was : not many people can stand that kind of torture. and you have to own a home gym. Doing Advanced GBC program on commercial gym is nearly impossible, especially at crowded hour.

Oh, to other members who want to try Poliquin Advanced GBC program, here's a sample :

You will using the following split:

Day One: Chest and Back
Day Two: Legs
Day Three: Off
Day Four: Shoulders and Arms
Day Five: Off
Repeat

The cycle is meant to be performed 6 times. Doing it longer will result in diminishing returns.

Here are some suggested movements, along with the prescribed rest periods.

Day One: Chest and Back

A1. 6 Incline Dumbbell Presses at 45-degree angle
Rest 10 seconds
A2. 12 Incline Barbell Presses at 45-degree angle
Rest 10 seconds
A3. 25 Incline Dumbbell Press at 30-degree angle
Rest 2 minutes
Repeat 3 times

B1. 6 Weighted Chins
Rest 10 seconds
B2. 12 Bent-over Rows
Rest 10 seconds
B3. 25 Seated Cable Rows to Neck
Rest 2 minutes
Repeat 3 times

Day Two: Legs

A1. 6 Squats
Rest 10 seconds
A2. 12 Lunges
Rest 10 seconds
A3. 25 Leg Extensions
Rest 2 minutes
Repeat 3 times

B1. 6 Leg Curls
Rest 10 seconds
B2. 12 Romanian Dead Lifts
Rest 10 seconds
B3. 25 Reverse Hypers or Back Extensions
Rest 2 Minutes
Repeat 3 times

Day Three: Off

Day Four: Arms and Shoulders

A1. 6 Seated Dumbbell Presses
Rest 10 seconds
A2. 12 Seated Lateral Raises
Rest 10 seconds
A3. 25 Lateral Raises with Cables
Rest 2 minutes
Repeat 3 times

B1. 6 Dips or Close-Grip Bench Presses
Rest 10 seconds
B2. 12 Decline Barbell Extensions
Rest 10 seconds
B3. 25 Cable Pressdowns
Rest 2 minutes
Repeat 3 times

C1. 6 incline Dumbbell Curls
Rest 10 seconds
C2. 12 Standing Barbell Curls
Rest 10 seconds
C3. 25 Standing Pulley Curls
Rest 2 minutes
Repeat 3 times

Warning : If you are not in a good shape, don't you even think to try the Advanced GBC program.

Instead of the advanced version, try the the standard GBC program. Here's a sample :

12 squats (at 12RM)
Rest 60 seconds
12 chins (at 12RM)
Rest 60 seconds
12 deadlifts (at 12 RM)
Rest 60 seconds
12 dips (at 12 RM)

Repeat 2 more times (only if you still have the energy, most people can only do 1 circuit).

Good luck.!!

 

[mary fierce]

Just how long are the long term studies that are thought to establish the safety of creatine? Lithium, also found in nature, commonly takes 10-20 years to cause kidney failure, so one needs to look for awhile before you can be entirely comfortable with a supplement or drug.

 

[tricky]

Just how long are the long term studies that are thought to establish the safety of creatine?

I know that creatine's been commercial for more than 10 years. There just hasn't been a strong real world correlation between creatine and kidney failure anymore than high protein intake (in healthy person) and kidney failure.

The only problem was : not many people can stand that kind of torture.

No doubt, no doubt. That and Alessi's programs are not for the meek. EDT and GVT are difficult, but more manageable because you're not required to do them in a circuit.

Doing Advanced GBC program on commercial gym is nearly impossible, especially at crowded hour.

Yeah, realistically, Poliquin's program (as are many of his schemes) would take about 2 hours to finish in a commercial gym, and obviously without the compressed rest periods, you don't get quite the same benefit.

A lot of Poliquin's stuff needs to be scaled down for regular guy use IMO. You gotta get the gist of what he's trying to do, and then simplify it so that it can be realistically finished within 45-60 minutes. And usually letting that time frame dictate the constraints of the program -- as well as adding periodization ramping variables if you're really experienced -- also takes care of the overtraining problems that often plague Poliquin's programs.

 

[chess9]

IMO the combination of exercise (good training program), good diet, good R&R and good supplementation (including creatine) will give you the magic result. Exercise without good diet, R&R and supplement, will only give marginal result.

Btw, I tried Poliquin Advanced GBC training program to some of my clients and the result was dramatic. The only problem was : not many people can stand that kind of torture. and you have to own a home gym. Doing Advanced GBC program on commercial gym is nearly impossible, especially at crowded hour.

Oh, to other members who want to try Poliquin Advanced GBC program, here's a sample :

You will using the following split:

Day One: Chest and Back
Day Two: Legs
Day Three: Off
Day Four: Shoulders and Arms
Day Five: Off
Repeat

The cycle is meant to be performed 6 times. Doing it longer will result in diminishing returns.

Here are some suggested movements, along with the prescribed rest periods.

Day One: Chest and Back

A1. 6 Incline Dumbbell Presses at 45-degree angle
Rest 10 seconds
A2. 12 Incline Barbell Presses at 45-degree angle
Rest 10 seconds
A3. 25 Incline Dumbbell Press at 30-degree angle
Rest 2 minutes
Repeat 3 times

B1. 6 Weighted Chins
Rest 10 seconds
B2. 12 Bent-over Rows
Rest 10 seconds
B3. 25 Seated Cable Rows to Neck
Rest 2 minutes
Repeat 3 times

Day Two: Legs

A1. 6 Squats
Rest 10 seconds
A2. 12 Lunges
Rest 10 seconds
A3. 25 Leg Extensions
Rest 2 minutes
Repeat 3 times

B1. 6 Leg Curls
Rest 10 seconds
B2. 12 Romanian Dead Lifts
Rest 10 seconds
B3. 25 Reverse Hypers or Back Extensions
Rest 2 Minutes
Repeat 3 times

Day Three: Off

Day Four: Arms and Shoulders

A1. 6 Seated Dumbbell Presses
Rest 10 seconds
A2. 12 Seated Lateral Raises
Rest 10 seconds
A3. 25 Lateral Raises with Cables
Rest 2 minutes
Repeat 3 times

B1. 6 Dips or Close-Grip Bench Presses
Rest 10 seconds
B2. 12 Decline Barbell Extensions
Rest 10 seconds
B3. 25 Cable Pressdowns
Rest 2 minutes
Repeat 3 times

C1. 6 incline Dumbbell Curls
Rest 10 seconds
C2. 12 Standing Barbell Curls
Rest 10 seconds
C3. 25 Standing Pulley Curls
Rest 2 minutes
Repeat 3 times

Warning : If you are not in a good shape, don't you even think to try the Advanced GBC program.

Instead of the advanced version, try the the standard GBC program. Here's a sample :

12 squats (at 12RM)
Rest 60 seconds
12 chins (at 12RM)
Rest 60 seconds
12 deadlifts (at 12 RM)
Rest 60 seconds
12 dips (at 12 RM)

Repeat 2 more times (only if you still have the energy, most people can only do 1 circuit).

Good luck.!!

Mother of God! The standard routine looks like it would kill me and I'm in pretty good shape for an old fart. But, I might have to try it anyway. If I don't post for awhile, you'll know why.

I did the ATG squats today for the first time since my 30's. My legs and butt/hips and calves feel like they've been rolled over by a Sherman Tank. Ugh....Hope I can hit tomorrow. Er, well, I might settle for walking.

-Robert

 

[jaykay]

---chortle---

chess9, you crack me up!

 

[chess9]

JayKay: I printed that sucka' out. I'm looking at it this a.m. while barely able to walk from yesterday's squat routine. My abductors and ilia psoas feel like they've taken friendly fire rounds.

-Robert

 

[Ano]

Mother of God! The standard routine looks like it would kill me and I'm in pretty good shape for an old fart. But, I might have to try it anyway. If I don't post for awhile, you'll know why.

I did the ATG squats today for the first time since my 30's. My legs and butt/hips and calves feel like they've been rolled over by a Sherman Tank. Ugh....Hope I can hit tomorrow. Er, well, I might settle for walking.

-Robert

I have to warn you, pal.... The Poliquin Advanced GBC program is VERY TAXING.!!

Tricky has given good advice, you might need to scale down the program.

Perhaps you could start with only 1 circuit per bodypart in the first week.

If after that you are still in one piece , then you can do 2 circuits per bodypart in the second week and 3 circuits / bodypart in the third week.

If you insist to do 3 circuits per bodypart, don't forget to bring your cell phone, just in case you need to dial 911..

Btw, if you could survive the program for 1 month, you will see a dramatic improvement in your bodycomposition.

Good luck, pal.!! Please keep us posted about your progress..

 

[Ano]

I know that creatine's been commercial for more than 10 years. There just hasn't been a strong real world correlation between creatine and kidney failure anymore than high protein intake (in healthy person) and kidney failure. .

Yup, Creatine supplement was first available commercially in 1992 or 1993, with a brand name Phospagen made by EAS. At that time, a tiny 100 grams bottle sold in health food store for around US$ 70. Now if you search the net, you could find 1 kilo bottle of pure micronized creatine supplement for around US$ 20.

But long before that, Creatine was first discovered in meat extracts in 1832 by a French scientist named Chevreul who named it after the Greek word for flesh.

Back in 1926, the Journal of Biological Chemistry cited research which indicated creatine promoted weight gain and improved nitrogen balance, which is often associated with muscle growth (A Chanutin & L.P. Guy, " The Fate of Creatine when administered to man," J. Biol. Chem. 67(1926): E 31-E37).

It is rumored that athletes in the former USSR and Bulgaria may have been using creatine to enhance athletic performance in the early 1970's ; however, the first documented use of creatine supplementation by athletes was with British track and field competitors in the 1992 Olympics in Barcelone -- Linford Christie, the 100-meter gold medalist, suppemented with creatine as did Colin Jackson, the British 110-meter hurdler.


And to reply about the long term study about the safety of creatine, the study last for five years.

Oh, Btw Tricky, high protein diet is another controversial topic. But I agree with you, high protein diet (1-1.5 gram/pound bodyweight) is safe to a healthy athlete.

Real experts such as Mauro Di Pasquale MD, Greg Zulak, Will Brink, Dr. John Berardi, Nick Evans MD, Chris Aceto, Dr. Michael Colgan, Doug Kalman, Wayne Gwartney MD, Carlon Colker MD and many others in their articles/books have said that high protein diet is safe for a healthy athlete.

And there are many studies published in peer reviewed journals to back up their claims.

 

[morten]

Back to the original post, i like Maxim sportsdrinks, Lucazade is good too but is not available in my country.

 

[tricky]

I have to warn you, pal.... The Poliquin Advanced GBC program is VERY TAXING.!!

Yup, and Ano's advice on the GBC is spot-on.

Other key point is to avoid training to failure for any given set. That's applicable in certain programs and systems, but not in something like this. You don't want to win the battle but lose the war.

Also, if you haven't already, look into supplementing with fish oil and a little evening primrose oil. Helps to keep inflammation and cortisol levels down.

Btw, if you could survive the program for 1 month, you will see a dramatic improvement in your bodycomposition.

Yup, and you'll also notice significant improvements in your daily lifestyle as well as conditioning. All of the physical changes that GBC and similar programs causes enables your body to tap into fat stores and run "cooler." So, general altertness and insulin senstivity goes up. Blood sugar levels are more even. Your tendons/ligaments will be in much shape. And you'll be able to last longer on the court as well as recover quicker.

Oh, Btw Tricky, high protein diet is another controversial topic. But I agree with you, high protein diet (1-1.5 gram/pound bodyweight) is safe to a healthy athlete.

Yeah, yeah I know. Which leads to, "what would Dante do?" I favor high-protein for BBers but I think athletes do better with carb-oriented diets with 1g/lbs protein recs (which is probably close to what most do anyway.) Athletes ought to be ingesting some fat and protein (with a little sugar) prior to an event. To me, it seems to work better, esp. if the fat is saturated and from eggs or dairy.

 

[Ano]

Yup, and Ano's advice on the GBC is spot-on.

Other key point is to avoid training to failure for any given set. That's applicable in certain programs and systems, but not in something like this. You don't want to win the battle but lose the war.

Also, if you haven't already, look into supplementing with fish oil and a little evening primrose oil. Helps to keep inflammation and cortisol levels down.

Yup, and you'll also notice significant improvements in your daily lifestyle as well as conditioning. All of the physical changes that GBC and similar programs causes enables your body to tap into fat stores and run "cooler." So, general altertness and insulin senstivity goes up. Blood sugar levels are more even. Your tendons/ligaments will be in much shape. And you'll be able to last longer on the court as well as recover quicker.

Yeah, yeah I know. Which leads to, "what would Dante do?" I favor high-protein for BBers but I think athletes do better with carb-oriented diets with 1g/lbs protein recs (which is probably close to what most do anyway.) Athletes ought to be ingesting some fat and protein (with a little sugar) prior to an event. To me, it seems to work better, esp. if the fat is saturated and from eggs or dairy.

So now we are waiting Chess9 post about his progress with GBC program

Btw, pal, from your posts I can tell you know a lot about strength and conditioning. What is your background, if you don't mind telling me?

As for myself, I work in a Bank. My degree is in Economic. I don't have formal education about anatomy, kinesiology, physiology, nutrition etc. But I've been reading books, magazines, journals etc about bodybuilding, fitness, health & nutrition since 1987. On average, I spend 1-2 hours a day just to read about that topic.

I have worked as a personal trainer with focus on bodyfat reduction and photoshoot preparation.

 

[chess9]

On Monday I did the Standard GBC, but inadvertently did the dips right after the chins, so I only did 8 dips. But, the second time around I could only get to 12 on the squats, 6 on the chins, 12 on the deads, and 3 on the dips. Bloody hell. I quit after that and went home wimpering.

Today I'm going to try to do a full two sets of Standard. I figure if I can get through three full sets of Standard eventually, I might consider doing the Advanced GBC. Just maybe...or maybe NOT!

-Robert

 

[Ano]

On Monday I did the Standard GBC, but inadvertently did the dips right after the chins, so I only did 8 dips. But, the second time around I could only get to 12 on the squats, 6 on the chins, 12 on the deads, and 3 on the dips. Bloody hell. I quit after that and went home wimpering.
Today I'm going to try to do a full two sets of Standard. I figure if I can get through three full sets of Standard eventually, I might consider doing the Advanced GBC. Just maybe...or maybe NOT!

-Robert

Don't feel bad, my friend. You did great, because according to Poliquin, when trying the standard program for the first time, many of his advanced athletes can only do 1 circuit .

Good luck pal!! Keep us posted about your progress..!!

 

[fearless1]

IMO the combination of exercise (good training program), good diet, good R&R and good supplementation (including creatine) will give you the magic result. Exercise without good diet, R&R and supplement, will only give marginal result.

Btw, I tried Poliquin Advanced GBC training program to some of my clients and the result was dramatic. The only problem was : not many people can stand that kind of torture. and you have to own a home gym. Doing Advanced GBC program on commercial gym is nearly impossible, especially at crowded hour.

Oh, to other members who want to try Poliquin Advanced GBC program, here's a sample :

You will using the following split:

Day One: Chest and Back
Day Two: Legs
Day Three: Off
Day Four: Shoulders and Arms
Day Five: Off
Repeat

The cycle is meant to be performed 6 times. Doing it longer will result in diminishing returns.

Here are some suggested movements, along with the prescribed rest periods.

Day One: Chest and Back

A1. 6 Incline Dumbbell Presses at 45-degree angle
Rest 10 seconds
A2. 12 Incline Barbell Presses at 45-degree angle
Rest 10 seconds
A3. 25 Incline Dumbbell Press at 30-degree angle
Rest 2 minutes
Repeat 3 times

B1. 6 Weighted Chins
Rest 10 seconds
B2. 12 Bent-over Rows
Rest 10 seconds
B3. 25 Seated Cable Rows to Neck
Rest 2 minutes
Repeat 3 times

Day Two: Legs

A1. 6 Squats
Rest 10 seconds
A2. 12 Lunges
Rest 10 seconds
A3. 25 Leg Extensions
Rest 2 minutes
Repeat 3 times

B1. 6 Leg Curls
Rest 10 seconds
B2. 12 Romanian Dead Lifts
Rest 10 seconds
B3. 25 Reverse Hypers or Back Extensions
Rest 2 Minutes
Repeat 3 times

Day Three: Off

Day Four: Arms and Shoulders

A1. 6 Seated Dumbbell Presses
Rest 10 seconds
A2. 12 Seated Lateral Raises
Rest 10 seconds
A3. 25 Lateral Raises with Cables
Rest 2 minutes
Repeat 3 times

B1. 6 Dips or Close-Grip Bench Presses
Rest 10 seconds
B2. 12 Decline Barbell Extensions
Rest 10 seconds
B3. 25 Cable Pressdowns
Rest 2 minutes
Repeat 3 times

C1. 6 incline Dumbbell Curls
Rest 10 seconds
C2. 12 Standing Barbell Curls
Rest 10 seconds
C3. 25 Standing Pulley Curls
Rest 2 minutes
Repeat 3 times

Warning : If you are not in a good shape, don't you even think to try the Advanced GBC program.

Instead of the advanced version, try the the standard GBC program. Here's a sample :

12 squats (at 12RM)
Rest 60 seconds
12 chins (at 12RM)
Rest 60 seconds
12 deadlifts (at 12 RM)
Rest 60 seconds
12 dips (at 12 RM)

Repeat 2 more times (only if you still have the energy, most people can only do 1 circuit).

Good luck.!!

Hmmm....no mention of core exercises. These could be added on days 3 and 5, which are currently listed as off days.

Since the Poliquin workout is somewhat basic at exercising one body part per week, "diminishing returns" will be quick to reach. One way to break through this plateau would be a split like this:

Day
1 upper body
2 core
3 lower body
4 off
5 upper body
6 core
7 lower body

This split results in working a muscle twice a week.

The exercises on any given day are arranged in a complimentary push-pull format, especially for upper body. The push exercises are performed in this order: chest, shoulders, triceps. The pull exercises in this order: upper back, biceps (lower back usually done on core day). Essentially, work the major muscle groups first, then move out towards the extrmeities.

more...

superset: doing one set right after the other

pyramid: low wt warm up set > increased wt > max wt > lower wt > lowest wt. Important: on the downside of the pyramid, the lighter the wt, the SLOWER the rep using very strict form.

combined: pyramid with supersets. The only rest periods of any kind in the workout would be say 30 seconds prior to any of the max wt "power set". On the last set using lightest wt, the muscles should be "burning" by then!

concentric vs eccentric

So, when to play tennis? Simple, on same day any resistence training is done. Just remember to do resistence training first then rest the muscle group for at least 6 hours before tennis.

Oh...since people like to give names to their routines, I'll call this one:

Fearless1 Pyramiding Push/Pull Supersets (F1 PPPS for short)!

 

[tricky]

Btw, pal, from your posts I can tell you know a lot about strength and conditioning. What is your background, if you don't mind telling me?

Ah, I just dabble in this stuff. I read more of the bio-med journal material than the mag/book stuff nowadays, so my interest tends to go more "theoretical" than practical. I sometimes go on BB.com to shoot the sheet with other folks.

In any case, lactate threshhold programs (GBC, Meltdown, EDT) are sort of the "holy grail" for anaerobic conditioning and body recomposition programs. Leptin response, mTOR response, nutrient partitioning, lactic acid energy conversion, even rate of glycogen synthesis, and so on are all affected by these programs.

And, also, due to the lactic acid causing collagen synthesis, they also work very well for avoiding tendonitis issues with wrist, cuff, elbows, etc. Creatine is good and all that, but it (like BCAA dosing) treats the symptom but not the true, underlying issue, which is ATP-CP efficiency (or mitochondrial density.) Together (with improved cardiovascular system), you have a completely improved chain.

The "best" way to apply this theory is to actually reduce the session intensity of the above programs, but to up the bodypart frequency from 3-6x-a-week, ramping up and down according to fatigue. I.e. the above is treated as a sort of cardio. However, you do that and you can pretty much forget about playing tennis. Or having a normal life.

In any case, if a guy focuses for a year on such a program for the legs and core (particularly the lower back, obliques, and transversus abdominus), they'll have close to pro-level (for tennis) conditioning. They may be able to run with Rafa, even. People may not believe me, but then how many people can stand this torture for a year?

 

[chess9]

Just thought I'd report in on my second day of the Standard GBC program which I did yesterday. I missed Wednesday because of company from Germany. Anyway, I got through two complete cycles, but only by cheating. I lowered the weight for the second set of squats, and I had to wait two minutes after the second set of dead lifts because my buddy walked up to me in the middle of the deads and said "you are rounding your back too much". I could have killed him. I have a broken back, so I can't do perfect form on deads. So, there I stood with the weight, like a deer in his headlights, listening to him, with heart rate soaring and arms fading.... Bloody hell. After 15 minutes rest, I did 4 sets of ab machine and 10 minutes easy on the treadmill. Today, I have my suicide scheduled for noon if I don't feel better. I am sooooo sore.....

I am not as fit as I thought I was, and by a large margin.

-Robert

 

[fearless1]

Just thought I'd report in on my second day of the Standard GBC program which I did yesterday. I missed Wednesday because of company from Germany. Anyway, I got through two complete cycles, but only by cheating. I lowered the weight for the second set of squats, and I had to wait two minutes after the second set of dead lifts because my buddy walked up to me in the middle of the deads and said "you are rounding your back too much". I could have killed him. I have a broken back, so I can't do perfect form on deads. So, there I stood with the weight, like a deer in his headlights, listening to him, with heart rate soaring and arms fading.... Bloody hell. After 15 minutes rest, I did 4 sets of ab machine and 10 minutes easy on the treadmill. Today, I have my suicide scheduled for noon if I don't feel better. I am sooooo sore.....

I am not as fit as I thought I was, and by a large margin.

-Robert

Nah, you aren't cheating at all anywhere. EVERYONE who resistence trains misses a workout for whatever reason they have. It only becomes a problem is you are chronic about missing too many workouts.

No workout routine is set in stone either. EVERYONE who resistence trains uses varying amounts of wt or resistence depending on circumstances. If you aren't feeling strong on a particular day or have an injury you are wary of, then lower the wt amount, espeicially if it was too high an amount to begin with. Of course, if you really want to "cheat", use higher amounts of resistence if you feel up to it!

Intra workout interruptions are also a fact of life for everyone who works out. There is nothing wrong with an interruption or even a break if you feel you need one. My recommendation though is to wait until you are finished with the last exercises of a particular body part before taking your break or allowing the interruption. However, if the interruption is expected to be very short, allowing it between sets is ok (implying you are NOT holding a wt off the floor while conversing with someone).

"Cheating" in resistence training usually entails one of the following: missing TOO MANY workouts and bad form during the reps. Everything else...an ineffective or even incorrect routine for desired results, improper nutrition, not enough rest, etc...I would classify as simply lack of experience and just not knowing better.

Muscle soreness (not JOINT soreness) is a very good sign. I look for this indicator the day after a workout since it tells me that I had a very good workout the day before. Now you must feed those sore muscles with proper nutrition and rest for it to grow!

There is nothing "special" about the Poliquin workout you are on right now. As I have already stated above, it's actually pretty basic. Just because someone put a name on it doesn't make it unique or profound either. Workout splits/routines are like tennis drills. They are a dime a dozen and meant to be different for each and everyone of us reflecting different needs. So, implicit with published routines are a one size fits all mentality. This of course it incorrect although certainly excusable for basic routines such as Polquin's. It will take several months of resistence training before you REALLY see the benefits of it not just in tennis, but other aspects of your life too. As you progress, the natural tendency will be to seek more instense (not nec more "advanced") routines as well as become more educated in the entire process itself (workout > proper nutrition > rest). IMO, the workout is actually the easy part of the process. Eating the right foods, for the right reasons, at the right time of day as well as getting proper rest, are related topics that appear to be far more difficult for beginners and even intermediate level people to grasp.

I'm glad you [appear to have] taken you first step into the new world of resistence training. Right now your mindset appears to be to use resistence training as a means to an end, tennis, as opposed to using resistence training as an end itself. If you keep it up...doesn't matter if it's with Polquin, my split (see prior post), Arnold's, etc....you will reap benefits that are far more important to you than just tennis. Specifically, at the very least, you will achieve a state of "wellness". More important, as you get older, you will also be very fit and healthy allowing for a youthful lifestyle well into your 50's and even 60's.

 

[stormholloway]

Take lots of water and some fruit juice to deliver it to the muscles and you're golden.

 

[chess9]

Nah, you aren't cheating at all anywhere. EVERYONE who resistence trains misses a workout for whatever reason they have. It only becomes a problem is you are chronic about missing too many workouts.

No workout routine is set in stone either. EVERYONE who resistence trains uses varying amounts of wt or resistence depending on circumstances. If you aren't feeling strong on a particular day or have an injury you are wary of, then lower the wt amount, espeicially if it was too high an amount to begin with. Of course, if you really want to "cheat", use higher amounts of resistence if you feel up to it!

Intra workout interruptions are also a fact of life for everyone who works out. There is nothing wrong with an interruption or even a break if you feel you need one. My recommendation though is to wait until you are finished with the last exercises of a particular body part before taking your break or allowing the interruption. However, if the interruption is expected to be very short, allowing it between sets is ok (implying you are NOT holding a wt off the floor while conversing with someone).

"Cheating" in resistence training usually entails one of the following: missing TOO MANY workouts and bad form during the reps. Everything else...an ineffective or even incorrect routine for desired results, improper nutrition, not enough rest, etc...I would classify as simply lack of experience and just not knowing better.

Muscle soreness (not JOINT soreness) is a very good sign. I look for this indicator the day after a workout since it tells me that I had a very good workout the day before. Now you must feed those sore muscles with proper nutrition and rest for it to grow!

There is nothing "special" about the Poliquin workout you are on right now. As I have already stated above, it's actually pretty basic. Just because someone put a name on it doesn't make it unique or profound either. Workout splits/routines are like tennis drills. They are a dime a dozen and meant to be different for each and everyone of us reflecting different needs. So, implicit with published routines are a one size fits all mentality. This of course it incorrect although certainly excusable for basic routines such as Polquin's. It will take several months of resistence training before you REALLY see the benefits of it not just in tennis, but other aspects of your life too. As you progress, the natural tendency will be to seek more instense (not nec more "advanced") routines as well as become more educated in the entire process itself (workout > proper nutrition > rest). IMO, the workout is actually the easy part of the process. Eating the right foods, for the right reasons, at the right time of day as well as getting proper rest, are related topics that appear to be far more difficult for beginners and even intermediate level people to grasp.

I'm glad you [appear to have] taken you first step into the new world of resistence training. Right now your mindset appears to be to use resistence training as a means to an end, tennis, as opposed to using resistence training as an end itself. If you keep it up...doesn't matter if it's with Polquin, my split (see prior post), Arnold's, etc....you will reap benefits that are far more important to you than just tennis. Specifically, at the very least, you will achieve a state of "wellness". More important, as you get older, you will also be very fit and healthy allowing for a youthful lifestyle well into your 50's and even 60's.

I tend to lift heavier and more seriously (3 days per week) in the Winter and lighter during the season (2 days, even 1 day some weeks). I've been lifting for many years, but haven't paid attention to lifting training theories much in the last 30 years so this information is very interesting stuff for me. I'll be on this program for 11 more weeks at least, so I should see some results. My buddy at the gym thinks this approach is a great one, btw. He was an SAS fitness guy until last year and he's built like a tank.

Thanks for the help and encouragement.

-Robert

 

[tricky]

been lifting for many years, but haven't paid attention to lifting training theories much in the last 30 years so this information is very interesting stuff for me

Key thing with the GBC program is to improve your conditioning. In this program, the burn is really, really important. That in turn this will also help lingering issues you may have with joints, tendons, and ligaments. Really, the general health benefits you'll feel from it will be incredible.

So, some points for long-term success with the program:

1) You should feel a good burn during each set. Fatigue is important for this kind of program.

2) Over 11 weeks, you want to see overall progression in your work output. You may go up and down with the # of sets or even poundages session to session, but the idea is that after 2-3 weeks, you're using on average more weight and/or more sets.

2b) In other words, try to bump up sets and/or weight every 2 weeks or so.

3) Avoid training to failure. Avoid burn-out. If you feel tired or kinda "wired" (overtraining), then just skip the day or two.

4) Eat healthy, but well. Make sure you eat a lot of the day's food within 4-6 hours after working out.

5) Uhm, this is a really good way of preparing for Turkey Day.

6) Within 3 weeks, you should feel a change. Within 6 weeks, your one-mile should significantly improve and you'll notice your joints are more "limber." Within 9 weeks, you will have an appetite of a horse, yet be considerably leaner. Within 11 weeks, you'll grind the kids into the ground.

 

[Ano]

Good advice from Tricky and fearless.

Oh, Btw Robert... It's a good idea to record your weight, waist measurement and bodyfat percentage before and after 11 weeks on the program..

Again, please keep us posted. I'm interested with your progress...

 

[tricky]

Actually, unless he's looking to lose a little fat here and there, I probably wouldn't worry too much about that.

Because I see this his goals as wanting to have "Nadal-esque" wheels out there, I would actually argue that he should eat more to refuel his body. It's not how most people see programs such as this, but the system works out well this way for that.

But, yeah, Chess9, this program is also designed to wipe off ~0.5 BF% per week provided you eat sensibily (not too much, not too little.) So, at 12 weeks, you'll be ripped to the gills. Which may not necessarily be a good thing if you like play long matches. Again, with the way the program works, it's not a bad idea to spend a day or two a week just eating a lot of carbs (i.e. pasta night at the Olive Garden.) Whatever keeps your motor running, so to speak.

 

[chess9]

I've only done 4 workouts on this plan, though I'm on week 3 of my winter training (tomorrow). My waist size hasn't changed, though I notice from my Tanita Body Fat Scale that my muscle weight has gone from 144.8 lbs to 146.6. My body fat percentage is up slightly though that varies a bit with hydration levels. Another two weeks and I might notice some change in performance levels.

I went to the gym on Monday with a friend and did the Standard workout. She commented that when she looked at me about 10 minutes into the workout she thought I was breathing pretty hard and looked like I was totally disassociated from the planet. Uh, yeah, the burn gets so bad, particularly by the time you get to the dips, that you have to go into almost a Zen like state to persevere. I did 2 sets on Monday, but tomorrow is a 3 set attempt day.

Later----

-Robert

 

[Ano]

Robert, after you can do the standard program for 3 circuits easily, you are ready for the advanced program.

Remember, the first time you try the advanced program, do only 1 circuit per bodypart, and you don't have to do each set to failure.

And I have to remind you again, the advanced program is a torture. When you do the third exercise for a bodypart (for 25 reps), the burn is really intense.

To be perfectly honest, I couldn't stand the advanced program myself, especiallly for the legs.

 

[chess9]

I finished 3 sets of the Standard workout yesterday. All my body parts are moving today. I wore my heartrate monitor during the workout and hit 171 on the third set. Ouchee'!! The third set was not a complete set inasmuch as I did 12 squats, 10 chins, 12 deads, and only 6 dips. My triceps, lats, quads, and butt are pretty sore today, but, surprisingly, not as sore as the two set routine I did Monday. I think I'm adapting. Oh, and I upped the squats by 5 kgs. Deads by 10 kgs.

I like this workout because it is so fast. I'm out of the gym in 40 minutes, including a 10 minute bike or treadmill warmup and some light stretching at the end. The actual lifting for all three sets is only about 15 minutes, but the limited rest between sets is a bear.

Thanks for the help! I'm going to do this workout twice next week, then take a close look at the Advanced schedule. I've printed it out, but I'm not sure I will commit that much time to lifting even during the Winter.

-Robert

 

[Ano]

You are welcome, pal..

Robert, the advanced program is not written in stone. You could make adjustment to the program based on your schedule / availability of equipment / how much time are you going to spend etc.

I don't have much time today. I'll get back to you on Monday...