CRITICIZE MY BACKHAND (shadow)



Feel free to criticize my backhand shadow.
I've already watched some videos of professionals and the shadow doesn't seem far off.
1.Perhaps my takeback is too exaggerated ?
2. And when my right foot hits the ground the forward swing should start sooner?
3. Should I use my shoulder blades? I think I don't "open" my chest when I let the left arm go from the racquet.

Obviously all of this should be done with a real ball to see if the stroke works.
 
Yeah, I agree that the high / exaggerated takeback is a bit too much. Start your unit turn primarily with your torso rotation. Angle your front foot as suggested above.

I would suggest keeping the back shoulder back longer. I'll have to take a look at your video again later to see what is going on with that.

Pay attention to what your head & eyes are doing during your shadow swings. You are moving them too much. At some point, you appear to be looking at the camera. Keep your eyes forward for a while as if you are watching an incoming ball. The eyes / head should be looking forward during your takeback and, possibly, even as your drop & forward swing starts. Good habit to get into. As the forward swing is underway, fix your gaze at your expected contact point (or a little bit forward of that contact point like Agassi does).
 
I had mentioned the back shoulder previously. Yours appears that it might be too active once you've started your fwd swing. You seem to have elements of both Roger's and Stan's style. Stan's L shoulder is more active than Roger's but your L shoulder appears to be more active than even Stan's is

Both guys coil their (upper) torso quite a bit on the prep phase. But Roger coils even more than Stan. They both uncoil about the same amount (30-45 degrees) before the torso stops turning (more or less) during the contact phase. Stan's torso is a bit more open at contact cuz he did not coil quite as much in the first place. Note the Stan's L shoulder stopped uncoiling just prior to contact. As does Roger's. Your L shoulder is still moving on, at least, one of your shadow swings. Note that the L shoulder of Stan resumes coming around well after contact (usually late in his follow-thru).

We don't see this with Roger very often. During & after the contact phase, Roger's front shoulder moves quite a bit more than his relatively static L shoulder. As a result, we see that Roger squeezes his shoulder blades together (and expands his chest/pecs) more than Stan does, You appear to be getting the shoulder blade squeeze, but your rear shoulder is also quite actively coming around.

Also check out the gaze and head movement during the stroke for both guys


 
Yeah, I agree that the high / exaggerated takeback is a bit too much. Start your unit turn primarily with your torso rotation. Angle your front foot as suggested above.

I would suggest keeping the back shoulder back longer. I'll have to take a look at your video again later to see what is going on with that.

Pay attention to what your head & eyes are doing during your shadow swings. You are moving them too much. At some point, you appear to be looking at the camera. Keep your eyes forward for a while as if you are watching an incoming ball. The eyes / head should be looking forward during your takeback and, possibly, even as your drop & forward swing starts. Good habit to get into. As the forward swing is underway, fix your gaze at your expected contact point (or a little bit forward of that contact point like Agassi does).
I was trying to go for something like a Dominic Thiem's backhand and that is why I'm rotating my torso and my back shoulder goes to the front. Not sure if I'm doing it correctly, nor if I should be copying Thiem. However it seems a more intuitive backhand to me.
I tried correcting some of those mistakes here, please tell me if it's an step in the right direction:

 
I was trying to go for something like a Dominic Thiem's backhand and that is why I'm rotating my torso and my back shoulder goes to the front. Not sure if I'm doing it correctly, nor if I should be copying Thiem. However it seems a more intuitive backhand to me.
I tried correcting some of those mistakes here, please tell me if it's an step in the right direction:

Dominic Thiem would explain the exaggerated takeback. DT often needs to stand pretty far behind the baseline to implement this. He may fare better on slow clay than on a faster surface. However, he did win the USO title. I didn't see it but I suspect that his prep might have been more conservative for that surface.

I'll look at your new video later -- when I have a bit more time. Hopefully, I won't forget
 
I also have a one hander and I hope that I can help you with yours :) Your racquet drop is really good, you get your racquet low for good topspin. Your contact is out in front and you rotate your shoulders. Keep your head forward and not to the side so that you can watch the ball. Your chin should touch or almost touch your right shoulder.

Your takeback should be shortened. Your racquet goes above your head; a big takeback is harder to time, will break down more easily, takes more time to prepare, and is unnecessary. So instead, move the racquet back in the takeback without lowering it or rasing it, then drop your racquet into the slot position once you've fully turned, and swing.

You split step well. But keep your elbows and racquet up in your ready position. That way, your arms will be raised and ready by the time you have to start the swing so that you can prepare faster and easier. This will also help your forehand and volleys etc.

Finally, try using your left arm a bit more. You're rotating too much, experiment with how much you want to rotate. I hope that this helps, good luck!
 
The too-high take back stretches the muscles used to bring racquet to contact incorrectly and may stress the shoulder unnecessarily. It will limit forward swing power. In second video for sure, you are not turning enough,”coiling” some call it. You also look to be trying to generate topspin by pulling up via the shoulder. The torso rotation and supination will drive hand and racquet head up sufficiently on their own without the loss of speed pulling up from shoulder causes. Lastly, try to anchor the rear foot as much as is reasonably possible. Letting it swing around means your racquet will not release properly, limiting racquet head speed.
 
The too-high take back stretches the muscles used to bring racquet to contact incorrectly and may stress the shoulder unnecessarily. It will limit forward swing power. In second video for sure, you are not turning enough,”coiling” some call it. You also look to be trying to generate topspin by pulling up via the shoulder. The torso rotation and supination will drive hand and racquet head up sufficiently on their own without the loss of speed pulling up from shoulder causes. Lastly, try to anchor the rear foot as much as is reasonably possible. Letting it swing around means your racquet will not release properly, limiting racquet head speed.
thanks mr ball machine
 
The too-high take back stretches the muscles used to bring racquet to contact incorrectly and may stress the shoulder unnecessarily. It will limit forward swing power. In second video for sure, you are not turning enough,”coiling” some call it. You also look to be trying to generate topspin by pulling up via the shoulder. The torso rotation and supination will drive hand and racquet head up sufficiently on their own without the loss of speed pulling up from shoulder causes. Lastly, try to anchor the rear foot as much as is reasonably possible. Letting it swing around means your racquet will not release properly, limiting racquet head speed.
is coiling rotating my torso as if I were trying to show a number in the back of my shirt to my opponent?
 
is coiling rotating my torso as if I were trying to show a number in the back of my shirt to my opponent?
Yes. Exactly. If your forward swing is mostly arm, you are, for lack of a better term “screwed.” You are pulling the racquet toward contact. You want to get the back muscles involved.

EDIT: Was going off second video when giving this advice. Might have been actually overdoing the coiling in first video, which was causing an inability to shift weight into shot, because your step toward contact was parallel to baseline. So, either foot placement causes the over coil or vice versa. Something between the two videos would be better. Just make sure it is enough to feel like the body is starting the arm toward the contact.
 
Last edited:
I was trying to go for something like a Dominic Thiem's backhand and that is why I'm rotating my torso and my back shoulder goes to the front. Not sure if I'm doing it correctly, nor if I should be copying Thiem. However it seems a more intuitive backhand to me.
I tried correcting some of those mistakes here, please tell me if it's an step in the right direction:

In this video, you went with the opposite extreme with your head movement. Instead of too much movement you have almost none at all. Eyes / head forward for your UT / preparation and as you start your drop. As the racket continues to drop, your head should be turning as if you are tracking the ball getting closer to you. During your forward swing, your eyes should go to your expected contact point -- slightly forward (toward the net) of your front foot. Now, keep your head still through your contact phase. Don't look up until you are well into the follow-thru phase.

Dominic T can be a decent model as long as you don't get carried away with a large (loop) takeback. Note that his initial takeback has his racket closer to vertical -- perhaps about 30° or less off the vertical. But then he lays it back more as he pulls the racket behind him. On some slice shots, he has it laid back a bit more -- initially, laying it back at 45° or so.

Note that DT hits many of his backhands in a neutral stance as well as with a closed stance. Try practicing some neutral stance BHs. You might even hit a slightly open stance on some serve returns. DT often angles his front foot slightly forward. On shots where his front foot remains parallel to the baseline, he does not rotate as much -- particularly during and after the contact phase.
 
I watched your second video. The front foot is still pointing sideways instead of a bit forward. The swing is already good.

I advise not to copy a pro . Can be influenced by them and make sure mechanics are correct.

Everyone has a different anatomy so noone can copy some one else. Upbringing, psychological disposition, cultural background etc can influence stroke.

Just do backswing your natural way. Your natural way will be the way that holds up best under pressure.
 
The swing is already good.

I advise not to copy a pro . Can be influenced by them and make sure mechanics are correct.



Just do backswing your natural way. Your natural way will be the way that holds up best under pressure.
The swing is not already good. There are a lot of these kinds of posts in this forum. A person comes here looking for advice on how to improve something, people give advice and then someone comes on here and shoots down the advice with nothing more effective than “don’t listen to these phony 5.0s” or “you are good enough to get two balls in a row in and beat a 3.0.” This isn’t a support group “hi my name is Daniel and I have a suspect backhand.”
“Hi Daniel!”
How can someone counter someone’s advice without suggesting how it is incorrect or offer something better? If everyone’s natural way of swinging was what would work best, you would be your best tennis player the first time you picked up a racquet and every lesson ever given would be a waste.
His backswing would not hold up under pressure. He is putting his shoulder in a bad position on take back. If you need proof, watch the drop phase. The racquet is still going back further toward the back fence. He can’t be relaxed and ready to explode forward after the drop phase if he is still pushing the racquet back. The racquet hand has to be as far back as it is going to go before the drop. Otherwise his timing will be off.
 
If everyone’s natural way of swinging was what would work best, you would be your best tennis player the first time you picked up a racquet and every lesson ever given would be a waste.
What you should learn is the proper mechanics. But you shouldn't be trying to copy someone else's style. There's a lot of scope for freedom of expression within a stroke without compromising mechanics.
 
As long as he has the fundemantals, his backhand will be good:
  • Turn shoulders
  • Touch or almost shoulder with chin
  • Pull the racquet back with the left arm
  • Turn body forward as you pull the racquet back for easy power
  • Contact out in front
  • keep head forward and still
  • Make swing feel effortless by using your body more and arms less
  • Firm and not rigid wrist for a stable racquet
  • Keep weight on front foot
He already has most of or all of these fundamentals in his swing though. (Some of these I can't tell by the video so he'll have to go by feel.) So he just needs to focus on improving the following:
  • Keep your head forward and stable, watch the ball.
  • Shorten the backswing, a big backswing is harder to time and is unnecessary. Don't lift the racquet above your head when you lift the racquet back.
  • Rotate less by using more of your left arm. You have to find out how much you want to rotate though, but you're rotating too much.
 
As long as he has the fundemantals, his backhand will be good:

  • Make swing feel effortless by using your body more and arms less

I just discovered how important this is. I always knew torso rotation was kinda important but I always thought the "power" of the arm movement was the most important of them all. However watching pro's in slow motion I get the sense that rotation of the torso is KEY. However I still have many many questions, when you say to use the body more is it the torso? or when I straighten my back and both my arms go in opposite directions? All of the above?

Also, in the forehand, I just started using torso rotation in the forehand so the dominant shoulder is in front when striking the ball, however this just opens a whole new set of questions?

1. When I'm rotating the torso is the dominant arm moving forward RELATIVE to the torso? or is it just rotating WITH it?
2. In case the dominant arm rotates WITH the torso, when is the dominant arm going to start excerting "power" by itself? Just before contact? Somewhere in the middle of the forward swing? never?

Sorry for all the questions :P Hope it was clear :D
 
Don't worry, you make good questions. Tennis, the one hander, and all its strokes are very complicated which is why I'm here discussing this because I find it very interesting. I'm gonna focus one the one hander since that's the main topic but some of this also applies to the other strokes.

The power on the one hander has a few different power sources. The right arm is obviously used to hit ball. But a lot of the power doesn't come from the arm. If you hit the ball with your right arm only: you won't get much power, your arm will get sore, and you'll exert too much stress on your elbow which is how many people get tennis elbow from hitting the one hander.

So instead, you rotate you're shoulders back and pull the racquet back with your left arm. While you drop the racquet into the slot, you keep pulling the racquet back and turn your shoulders/body. Because your arm is now being stretching by you're body turning and arm being back, it will have to move forward quickly on its own like a stretched rubber band which will create a lot of power.

Because you turned your body to hit the stroke, your body should now be slighty turned towards the ball. Then you use your right arm actively to hit ball and it won't have to do much since your body already did most of the work. You also use your left arm for stability and activate your back muscles for power but some people use their left arm more than others.

Just remember two main things, tennis is a game about using your legs and not your arms! Move your feet so that you can setup to hit a better shot and be readier. Your legs should be doing more work than your upper body and if you do all these things right: your strokes will be powerful and feel effortless. Go by feel, the ball feels good when hit well.

I hope that this made sense, I'm not great at explaining things :P Just use the second to last paragraph as that's what you should know and will improve your whole game, good luck!
 
Oh hello Daniel. I see something. I heard you were modelling your backhand on Dominic Thiem. Ok. Sometimes our eyes interpret the video differently than what is actually happening.

Ok. Your hand on take back is face height. If you watch DT his hand is below his chest on take back. Only the racquet head is up.

See, your mind got tricked. You saw the racquet head up and you interpreted as the hand.
 
Oh hello Daniel. I see something. I heard you were modelling your backhand on Dominic Thiem. Ok. Sometimes our eyes interpret the video differently than what is actually happening.

Ok. Your hand on take back is face height. If you watch DT his hand is below his chest on take back. Only the racquet head is up.

See, your mind got tricked. You saw the racquet head up and you interpreted as the hand.
thanks so much!
 
Am I the only one who doesnt like the hitting side of the stringbed pointing to the sky on takeback? Dont most players do this with the strings pointing to the side and not the sky:

AlmagroGasquetStage1.png
 
I prefer the racquet pointing straight up to the sky in the takeback because it's simpler and easier to time, (look at my pfp.) The racquet pointing at an angle towards the court is like the next gen forehand. It creates more racquet head speed because the racquet has to move more and faster in the takeback; but it's harder to time and breaks down more. The one handed backhand is already extremely difficult to time though, so I don't see the incentive in making a stroke harder for little to no reward. It can work however; so if you can hit it well and consistently, go for it.
 
I prefer the racquet pointing straight up to the sky in the takeback because it's simpler and easier to time, (look at my pfp.) The racquet pointing at an angle towards the court is like the next gen forehand. It creates more racquet head speed because the racquet has to move more and faster in the takeback; but it's harder to time and breaks down more. The one handed backhand is already extremely difficult to time though, so I don't see the incentive in making a stroke harder for little to no reward. It can work however; so if you can hit it well and consistently, go for it.
No. I think Shroud was talking about the side of the racquet that hits the ball facing up to the sky, meaning the actual stringbed, not the frame or edge of the racquet.

I see Daniel does this and Dominic Thiem does it too but not as exaggerated as Daniel. Haha weird one. So many ways of hitting a shot.
 
Your swingpath is way too extreme, and much more difficult to time than a professional's swing. You're going to be mishitting constantly.
 
Am I the only one who doesnt like the hitting side of the stringbed pointing to the sky on takeback? Dont most players do this with the strings pointing to the side and not the sky:

AlmagroGasquetStage1.png
With Roger and Stan, you only see an open racket face when they are using a continental grip and are hitting a backhand slice. Don't see it when they are hitting the topspin Bh

Daniel, check out the 2nd Bh that Stan hits in the 2nd video in post #6. There you will see the racket face open quite a bit at the very start of the forward swing. As in the forward swing commences, the racket face becomes only slightly open. I believe that Roger does something similar on his Bh slices

If you look at the other Bh shots that Stan hits, you will see that he is initiating a grip change during his unit turn / preparation. This closes the racket face more so that it never really opens up to the sky.

DT might have his open a bit for the top spin Bh, but nowhere as much as much as seen in the OP videos. Likely DT opens it up more for Bh slice
 
I had an interesting thought. If you had played tennis on a regular basis for 15 years and then you played a match against Roger Federer and assume or imagine Federer had never picked up a racquet in his life. So with all his talent for whatever reason he had never decided to play tennis. Then you would beat Roger Federer.

What's my point? Well if Jesus Christ came down and showed Daniel how to hit a backhand it wouldn't mean anything without loads of practice.
 
Dominic Thiem would explain the exaggerated takeback. DT often needs to stand pretty far behind the baseline to implement this. He may fare better on slow clay than on a faster surface. However, he did win the USO title. I didn't see it but I suspect that his prep might have been more conservative for that surface.

I'll look at your new video later -- when I have a bit more time. Hopefully, I won't forget
Thiem's takeback isn't that loopy either. He's got a straight arm takeback that makes the takeback look a lot larger than it actually is. OP's original takeback had his hitting hand go well above his left shoulder at the top of the takeback loop.
 
Thiem's takeback isn't that loopy either. He's got a straight arm takeback that makes the takeback look a lot larger than it actually is. OP's original takeback had his hitting hand go well above his left shoulder at the top of the takeback loop.
The best way is the time tested way. Video can be an aid but it is no substitute for attending a tennis tournament live. If you watch good players live in real you can 'feel' how to hit the ball.
 
@Daniel Andrade, more insights on the DT Bh below (see vids)
Thiem's takeback isn't that loopy either. He's got a straight arm takeback that makes the takeback look a lot larger than it actually is. OP's original takeback had his hitting hand go well above his left shoulder at the top of the takeback loop.
I recall watching a rear view video of DT hitting backhands on clay a year or two ago. He was standing quite far behind the baseline and his preparation was rather large (seemingly somewhat excessive). He may have changed this a bit in the past couple years but I believe his loop is still (often) rather large

Thiem preparation actually starts off rather compact with his unit turn. His racquet head is no higher than his own head. However after completing his UT, he raises his racket quite high -- where it is (nearly) completely above his head. From that point, his loop does appear to be rather large:



 
Freeze frame any pro, any stroke at contact. Legs bent, head down, solid + stable base (legs and hips) with weight shifting forward and through; racquet face square/slightly closed. This is #1. Also, footwork patterns.

How do you compare in those metrics?

$.02.

 
Back
Top