CRITICIZE MY ONE HANDED BACKHAND

[Curious]

I saw a pro hit it at almost match speed for like 10+ times, always deep cc in practice. INSANE level. Not even top 50

I’ve seen that quite a few times between two handers but not between one handers. One of them usually screws it up after 4-5 shots. With a ball either out or weak.

 

[slipgrip93]

Eastern backhand grip is knucle on bevel 1, isn't it?

yes, the 1hbh grip can interestingly also be old-school continental (bevel 2) , or closer to bevel 8 which Henin seemingly did. ( ttw thread on "semi-western" 1hbh grip)
I usually like to stick to "semi-eastern" between bevel 1&2.

Her 1hbh tip video:

(Henin practice close-up, 2010 stuttgart), (Henin's best backhands on tour)

Meike Babel also has a bunch of great videos on the 1hbh often focusing on fundamentals and then some other details.
( her recent 1hbh videos link )

 

[Jono123]

Eastern backhand grip is knucle on bevel 1, isn't it?

Your racket face is way too open to denote an eastern BH grip.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

Your racket face is way too open to denote an eastern BH grip.

I will have a closer look at the grip. Perhaps it slides while I hit.

 

[ChaelAZ]

First thought is, whoever is looping high balls to your BH is smart. I only watched a little and jumped around, but looks like most shots are above your head, and that is a tough ask for any 1hbh.

 

[5263]

I have some idea of what's going wrong but I'm open to suggestions. I really wanna improve this shot. Even if it means drilling it exclusively.

drag the RH thru contact instead of flipping or pushing it thru...

 

[5263]

But there’s still something intrinsically difficult with ohbh.

not so much once you learn how to drag the Rh instead of push it.... it then becomes pretty easy and maybe the easiest of the strokes.

 

[ballmachineguy]

not so much once you learn how to drag the Rh instead of push it.... it then becomes pretty easy and maybe the easiest of the strokes.

For Curious, the ohbh has always been a drag.

 

[Devilito]

your swing is stiff which bricks your follow through. You're using muscle instead of technique. Swing light, smooth, fast and let your follow through flow naturally. If i were to hit my backhand they way you do, it would feel so awkward and forced. A proper swing will not feel like work, it will feel natural without thought. Your footwork also looks forced. It's not efficient, you're bouncing up and down and making unnecessary movements. Short steps to move into position when needed, not moving randomly just because someone told you that you should focus on your footwork.

 

[Curious]

not so much once you learn how to drag the Rh instead of push it.... it then becomes pretty easy and maybe the easiest of the strokes.

That’s exactly right. I think the correct motion is get the buttcap point towards the ball and pull it to the ball from there and let the racket head follow/drag as you said.

Perfect demonstration here.

 

[Jono123]

not so much once you learn how to drag the Rh instead of push it.... it then becomes pretty easy and maybe the easiest of the strokes.

Please elaborate....

 

[ballmachineguy]

That’s exactly right. I think the correct motion is get the buttcap point towards the ball and pull it to the ball from there and let the racket head follow/drag as you said.

Perfect demonstration here.

Ok. Now go home and try to drag something with your front foot in the air.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Stan definitely pulling in pic 1. Stan definitely not pulling in pic 2.

https://imgur.com/a/AgoPn9d

 

[Curious]

Stan definitely pulling in pic 1. Stan definitely not pulling in pic 2.

https://imgur.com/a/AgoPn9d

Pull turns into a throw. Second pic is the throw phase.

 

[Curious]

Ok. Now go home and try to drag something with your front foot in the air.

My front foot is not hanging in the air stationary. It’s moving forward. Not ideal but can still work. People lose their hands and start doing amazing things with their feet!

 

[ballmachineguy]

Pull turns into a throw. Second pic is the throw phase.

No. Pull turns into a push. He is driving the hand forward.

 

[ballmachineguy]

My front foot is not hanging in the air stationary. It’s moving forward. Not ideal but can still work. People lose their hands and start doing amazing things with their feet!

Ok. Go home and drag a 20lb weight with a rope with your front foot moving forward. Don’t even know what the last sentence is implying (like peeling a banana with their toes?).

 

[Curious]

No. Pull turns into a push. He is driving the hand forward.

That phase is powered by the momentum of the initial pull. No time to push there.

 

[Curious]

Ok. Go home and drag a 20lb weight with a rope with your front foot moving forward. Don’t even know what the last sentence is implying (like peeling a banana with their toes?).

Why did you increase the racket weight to 20lb?!

 

[ballmachineguy]

Why did you increase the racket weight to 20lb?!

Now I see where the problem lies. You think because the racquet is so light, you can get away with bad form. Pulling is pulling. Have to be in the same position to pull the 20lb weight as you do to hit a proper ohbh. Carry on.

 

[ballmachineguy]

That phase is powered by the momentum of the initial pull. No time to push there.

So, in pic two, his arm is moving independently of his torso?

 

[Curious]

People lose their hands and start doing amazing things with their feet!

Don’t even know what the last sentence is implying (like peeling a banana with their toes?).

If she had arms do you have doubt this girl would be able to hit a ohbh with her front foot not planted?

 

[Curious]

It’s nothing more than a well-timed, well-positioned pull. That’s why it looks fine in the backyard but not on the court!

 

[ballmachineguy]

If the contact and post-contact were just a “throw,” the hand and racquet head would not be in the same configuration as when the pull started. The racquet head would be out front of the hand. Also, see how his arm is extending toward the target? He is still actively extending toward the target. His pectoral muscle is totally engaged.

Oops. Forgot the pic.

https://imgur.com/a/KiKhiyQ

Plus, I know how to do it and I know what is happening. You…

 

[Curious]

Plus, I know how to do it and I know what is happening. You…

Maybe you don’t but you think you do and that’s the reason why you can’t post a video of you hitting a backhand.

 

[5263]

Please elaborate....

One handed shots are mostly about managing the momentum of the racket Rh by G-ing it up via acceleration. The accel speeds up the Rh as well as multiplies the effect of the mass of the RH as well. It is a bit like pulling a spark plug with a wire. The wire is firm, but if you try to push it too fast it will give and lose it's power, but if you get it moving well, then time the accel to project the force into the impact, it can deliver lots of energy to the impact. While the racket is stronger than a wire, it is the wrist that tends to fail or be weak in a tennis stroke when pushing the RH. The trick is to find the right timing for the amount of force you intend to create and at a level you have learned to manage.

 

[Chas Tennis]

VIDEO OBSERVATIONS ONE HAND BACKHAND

Forum Search: Chest Press Backhand
Member: Chas Tennis

Search results for query: Chest Press Backhand

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

2015

Fxanimator1, What do you think of this description?

When the upper body/chest turn is used to initially accelerate the arm by the chest directly pressing on the upper arm, the pace of the one hand backhand can be higher and the initial acceleration can be higher. Imagine squeezing a credit card between your chest and upper arm. See high speed videos.

Is accelerating a body part by pressing on it with another body part a known biomechanical principle?

2013

One Hand Backhand - What Force to Start Forward Swing?

I have just been watching great one-hand backhands at the Madrid Open. Including excellent slow motion that can be replayed in even slower motion or single frame with my DVR.

Often when I try to swing forward for a one hand backhand the stroke is very weak in the initial acceleration, especially if I'm rushed. The ball contact is extremely late on heavy pace and often the ball goes off at an angle and into the ground.

On very rare occasions in the past, when I was hitting better pace 1HBHs, if I had a set up on the backhand side and ran forward for the ball I could hit a monster TP backhand with confidence. Not for some years now....... So I know that heavy pace backhands are possible. I am wondering where that stroke came from. ?

This question deals with only that time when the one hand backhand backswing is just completed and the the racket is starting to accelerate.

Biomechanical issues -

1) Shoulders orientation, back at about 45°(?) to the baseline, etc., and also the angle of the arm to the shoulder to start the forward swing- the upper arm is out from the body. Why are these angles used and their purpose in accelerating the upper arm?

2) Why does the racket go back to well above the head? Why is the first part of the stroke downward?

3) Does the lat work on the upper arm. How? Is that why the upper arm is always raised out from the body in high level backhands - so that it can shorten and move the upper arm?

4) Effect of body turning to initially propel the shoulder & arm forward. ?

5) Which muscles contribute to downward & forward arm & racket motion? Which contribute to racket head speed and in what degree: lat, rear delt, others? The racket and arm seem to accelerate strongly downward at first picking up speed and then swing to a more forward direction for impact.

6) How is the stretch-shortening cycle at work in the 1hbh? Especially for the initial upper arm motion.


For illustrations, see the one hand backhands at end of the take back and ready for the forward swing.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ill...8EJj54APhh4CgBQ&ved=0CEsQsAQ&biw=1334&bih=702

Some especially good illustrations of just before the forward swing are on tennis.about.com , strokes #5,6,7.
http://tennis.about.com/od/playersm...e-pro-one-handed-topspin-backhand-grips_6.htm

Slow motion videos on the 1HBH including frames showing the start of the one hand backhand. Racket high, player looking over shoulder, shoulders turned past perpendicular to the baseline, second hand still on racket - the initial position. What are the details of how the racket accelerates from there?

Roger Federer and Justine Henin Topspin backhands

YOUTUBE ACCOUNT CLOSED

Roger Federer backhands shot with slow motion

Roger Federer's topspin backhand 360 degree breakdown 2.0

Federer Wawrinka and more Top spin BH part I: The preparation

Federer, Wawrinka and more top spin BH part II: The Stroke phase

Richard Gasquet - Slow Motion Top Spin Backhands in HD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuBRallEByc

SEARCHONEHANDBACKHAND

 

[Daniel Andrade]

Maybe you don’t but you think you do and that’s the reason why you can’t post a video of you hitting a backhand.

OOF

 

[ballmachineguy]

OOF

Show me on the doll where ballmachineguy hurt you.

https://imgur.com/a/en9EdMF

 

[tennis4me]

May I suggest hand-feeding to practice/fix a stroke. It's much easier that way since the height/speed is controlled so you can focus on what you're trying to fix. Then, pick one item and focus on fixing that first. There were already many good suggestions on this thread.

My own observation:
- your contact point is too high at times. (Yeah, maybe Wawrinka have no problem with that, but most OHBH players will)
- your arm looked very tense, try to relax your swing - doesn't mean you have to swing harder.
- lastly, maybe the most important one ...
Try to get a solid footing/base before contact, at contact, and right after contact. As in, see if you can hold your stand solidly (and freeze for say 5 seconds, without falling to right/left) after you hit your OHBH. If you can't, that means one or more of your footwork, contact point, timing, etc is off.

Give it a try and see if it helps you. A much wiser coach gave this tip to me ages ago. If you can hold this freeze position, you'll indirectly/automatically fix a few other elements (contact point, balance, timing, etc.)

Good luck!
Edited: changed "just before" to "before" contact.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Try to get a solid footing/base just before contact

Too late! Having the front foot down before the racquet even starts to drop is not just “tennis technique.” It’s a sports thing. You can’t find a baseball player swinging a bat before the front foot touches down, a pitcher pitch before it happens, a quarterback throw etc. You will waste your time doing anything else.

 

[tennis4me]

Too late! Having the front foot down before the racquet even starts to drop is not just “tennis technique.” It’s a sports thing. You can’t find a baseball player swinging a bat before the front foot touches down, a pitcher pitch before it happens, a quarterback throw etc. You will waste your time doing anything else.

You're correct. I was not being very precise. I hope he gets the idea. Wasn't picturing in my mind, just writing freely. The "just before" is misleading. Thx for pointing that out.

Changed the "just before" to "before". The point was to keep the solid stance throughout the stroke longer to "expose" other elements that's affecting the inconsistencies of the OHBH.

Thanks again for noticing/correcting that.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

You're correct. I was not being very precise. I hope he gets the idea. Wasn't picturing in my mind, just writing freely. The "just before" is misleading. Thx for pointing that out.

Changed the "just before" to "before". The point was to keep the solid stance throughout the stroke longer to "expose" other elements that's affecting the inconsistencies of the OHBH.

Thanks again for noticing/correcting that.

I understood correctly what you were trying to convey. Thanks a lot!

 

[Daniel Andrade]

Who taught you your backhand, Curious?

This will never, ever, ever work. You are swinging and not even anchored to the ground. You wouldn’t even throw a frisbee like this. Did I mention that this will never work?

https://imgur.com/a/AYLQGc5

At this frame this is the first moment my front foot is completely anchored to the ground, is this too late to anchor my right foot?

 

[Curious]

At this frame this is the first moment my front foot is completely anchored to the ground, is this too late to anchor my right foot?

If the front foot (heel) was just touching the ground it would be late apparently. Do you have a photo of that?

 

[Daniel Andrade]

If the front foot (heel) was just touching the ground it would be late apparently. Do you have a photo of that?

do you mean a photo of the first time my heel makes contact with the ground?

 

[Curious]

do you mean a photo of the first time my heel makes contact with the ground?

Yes.
Can we see one more photo? When the racket head is at the highest point in take back, right before the drop starts? See where the foot is.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

Yes.
Can we see one more photo? When the racket head is at the highest point in take back, right before the drop starts? See where the foot is.

It's definitely not on the ground.

 

[Curious]

It's definitely not on the ground.

Now go and figure out which one is the problem. Foot planting too late or swing starting too early?

 

[10sbeast888]

I have some idea of what's going wrong but I'm open to suggestions. I really wanna improve this shot. Even if it means drilling it exclusively.

this is not a problem specific to the 1hbh... I bet your fh may have an issue also.

do NOT attack the ball with the face.

counterintuitive. yes.

attack with the leading edge. wipe the ball up and across.

during the initial build of a shot, either fh or bh... don't worry about the footwork.

build the shot from the hand, down to the ground.... it will take many stages to get the final product.

but the first stage is always to understand what the hand does.

in the case of the 1hbh, the first step, is to just use the thumb knuckle to push bevel #6, up and across, maintain the same racket angle thru the contact.

don't worry about the shoulder turn or the footwork.

understand what the hand does first.... later on you can add the shoulder turn, the hip drive, the footwork.

this should be helpful to so many folks on different 1hbh threads.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

this is not a problem specific to the 1hbh... I bet your fh may have an issue also.

do NOT attack the ball with the face.

counterintuitive. yes.

attack with the leading edge. wipe the ball up and across.

during the initial build of a shot, either fh or bh... don't worry about the footwork.

build the shot from the hand, down to the ground.... it will take many stages to get the final product.

but the first stage is always to understand what the hand does.

in the case of the 1hbh, the first step, is to just use the thumb knuckle to push bevel #6, up and across, maintain the same racket angle thru the contact.

don't worry about the shoulder turn or the footwork.

understand what the hand does first.... later on you can add the shoulder turn, the hip drive, the footwork.

this should be helpful to so many folks on different 1hbh threads.

Thanks!

On the forehand I have problems of other nature. My fh and my ohb are night and day.

I will give that a try.

 

[Curious]

this is not a problem specific to the 1hbh... I bet your fh may have an issue also.

do NOT attack the ball with the face.

counterintuitive. yes.

attack with the leading edge. wipe the ball up and across.

during the initial build of a shot, either fh or bh... don't worry about the footwork.

build the shot from the hand, down to the ground.... it will take many stages to get the final product.

but the first stage is always to understand what the hand does.

in the case of the 1hbh, the first step, is to just use the thumb knuckle to push bevel #6, up and across, maintain the same racket angle thru the contact.

don't worry about the shoulder turn or the footwork.

understand what the hand does first.... later on you can add the shoulder turn, the hip drive, the footwork.

this should be helpful to so many folks on different 1hbh threads.

I want to understand your tip. Do you mean something like this by thumb pushing?

 

[10sbeast888]

I want to understand your tip. Do you mean something like this by thumb pushing?

I may have seen your 1hbh videos somewhere.... your thumb action is correct.. ready to build it down to the ground... which means turn the shoulder then fire the right hip to stretch the back muscles.

this is what I meant by 'building the shot from the hand to the ground'

 

[ppma]

You need to be able to support your weight on that leg. In that position, you can't do that.

 

[ballmachineguy]

The thumb knuckle? Really?

 

[Daniel Andrade]

The thumb knuckle? Really?

Yeah, no thumb knucle right?

But what about this?

Still late?

 

[ballmachineguy]

Yeah, no thumb knucle right?

But what about this?

Still late?

If that’s the furthest back and highest your racquet ever goes back, then you are fine. If you have dropped any before the foot gets down, then it is a problem. Imagine pulling the string on a bow and arrow back the required amount to reach your target, but before letting go, you let the string move forward four inches. Why give up some of the stored energy?
In addition, you can’t pull the racquet to the path you want until that foot is down, but it is moving. Where is it moving to? Wherever that step is taking the shoulder, that’s where. Your shoulder is at the mercy of your foot. Your hand is following the shoulder, right? Good luck if you want to hit anything other than flat.

 

[Curious]

Mate, you know I don’t have a great bh but that doesn’t stop me from having ideas!
Anyway this is just my observation and others may not agree it’s a big issue. This lifting of hand and arm in your take back is problematic imo. Also causing the front shoulder to go up, back shoulder to collapse. I think the right way would be take back mostly by coiling only, hand going back mostly horizontally, may go up only at the furthest back in the take back, not this early.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

Mate, you know I don’t have a great bh but that doesn’t stop me from having ideas!
Anyway this is just my observation and others may not agree it’s a big issue. This lifting of hand and arm in your take back is problematic imo. Also causing the front shoulder to go up, back shoulder to collapse. I think the right way would be take back mostly by coiling only, hand going back mostly horizontally, may go up only at the furthest back in the take back, not this early.

Thanks! I will give that a try.

 

[Spin Diesel]

I have some idea of what's going wrong but I'm open to suggestions. I really wanna improve this shot. Even if it means drilling it exclusively.

Props for uploading your video and trying to improve! This place can be quite a bit demotivating when doing so.
I think you have good motor control, so I guess with a few adjustements you can get a solid onehander.

I think there are two main but equally important things:
- One is to have your body weight in the right place throughout your stroke. Most of the time you're falling backwards. You're leaning into the shot with your hip but not with your chest. This could also fix a bit of your tendency of your racket face pointing too much towards the sky, though a bit of a more extreme grip could help as well. For changing your body weight you will need to prepare a bit earlier and also lock your right foot a bit earlier.

The second point is the path of your stroke. Look at how much height difference is in Wawrinka's right hand before and after hitting the ball. And then compare it to yours:

Your hand is too high before the shot and therefore your stroke is way too linear and you try to add spin with brushing the ball with your wrist, like you would do in ping-pong. (That's why I never liked the "brush up on the ball" instruction) It makes it a lot more difficult to hit the ball cleanly that way. Also see how much more the tip of your racket is pointing downwards before hitting, compared to Stan.

I hope that helps, good luck!