eb_tennis_247
Semi-Pro
Here is a video of my serve, a pretty general representation:
Serve 7/2020
Please feel free to critique and give productive tips.
Serve 7/2020
Please feel free to critique and give productive tips.
Critique my serve - work in progress
- Thread starter eb_tennis_247
- Start date
eb_tennis_247
Semi-Pro
Thank you.
As for racquet on edge - do you mean tip of the racquet head facing forward?
Yep. It'll be easier to do once you loosen your wrist.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
You serve looks like a Waiter's Tray. There are many posts on the WT.
You are swinging the racket forward but there is little internal shoulder rotation (ISR) of the upper arm to also rotate the arm and racket to add speed.
Compare your serve to high level serves. To do stop action on Streamable, stop video and manually use the slider bar to select the frame. On Youtube use the period & comma keys to move single frame. Always select the video using the Alt+Left Mouse Click, otherwise the video starts playing.
Oh, it does not work because Streamline brings up its own screen. Post your serve on Youtube if you want to compare serves. You could compare the two pro Youtubes to see differences and see how it works. You can also open one window with the Youtube and another window with your Streamline.
There is a safety issue for the high level serve technique where the upper arm has to be held at a angle to the shoulder to reduce the risk of impingement. Search: Ellenbecker, Rotator Cuff Injury, Chas
Search Forum: Waiter's Tray Chas
Google: Waiter's Tray Error hitech tennis
You are swinging the racket forward but there is little internal shoulder rotation (ISR) of the upper arm to also rotate the arm and racket to add speed.
Compare your serve to high level serves. To do stop action on Streamable, stop video and manually use the slider bar to select the frame. On Youtube use the period & comma keys to move single frame. Always select the video using the Alt+Left Mouse Click, otherwise the video starts playing.
Oh, it does not work because Streamline brings up its own screen. Post your serve on Youtube if you want to compare serves. You could compare the two pro Youtubes to see differences and see how it works. You can also open one window with the Youtube and another window with your Streamline.
There is a safety issue for the high level serve technique where the upper arm has to be held at a angle to the shoulder to reduce the risk of impingement. Search: Ellenbecker, Rotator Cuff Injury, Chas
Search Forum: Waiter's Tray Chas
Google: Waiter's Tray Error hitech tennis
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Yeah, I'd agree with having a looser arm and keeping the swing continuous. My coach described it as a whiplash action.
I was taught to move the racquet arm elbow forward as you go into the "backscratch" position, I guess to create a lag, I noticed that yours stays back.
More pronation prior to contact if you are going down the T from the deuce court (which I assume you do when you serve that way). I prefer to tuck the non hitting arm in front of my waist (like cradling a baby- so it tucks in as you swing up). What you did is more like what Kyrgios does where both hands finish on the same side.
Oh yeah, be careful hitting too many serves in the wet, if you already have elbow issues.
I was taught to move the racquet arm elbow forward as you go into the "backscratch" position, I guess to create a lag, I noticed that yours stays back.
More pronation prior to contact if you are going down the T from the deuce court (which I assume you do when you serve that way). I prefer to tuck the non hitting arm in front of my waist (like cradling a baby- so it tucks in as you swing up). What you did is more like what Kyrgios does where both hands finish on the same side.
Oh yeah, be careful hitting too many serves in the wet, if you already have elbow issues.
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eb_tennis_247
Semi-Pro
Thank you all for the great tips and analysis.
Would you please help me with a sequence of isolated steps/tips, so I could try to work on these and measure progress in order:
1. Improve x by doing ...
2. Next, improve y by doing ...
3. ...
The reason why I ask is because I followed and watched tons of great videos online but when I try to apply them all together, my accuracy and consistency fall apart.
Serve I posted is the one that gets me a decent consistency and accuracy. Big fix I did myself was serve toss.
What would you suggest as the next few things to fix and in what order?
(I will post videos of my progress)
Would you please help me with a sequence of isolated steps/tips, so I could try to work on these and measure progress in order:
1. Improve x by doing ...
2. Next, improve y by doing ...
3. ...
The reason why I ask is because I followed and watched tons of great videos online but when I try to apply them all together, my accuracy and consistency fall apart.
Serve I posted is the one that gets me a decent consistency and accuracy. Big fix I did myself was serve toss.
What would you suggest as the next few things to fix and in what order?
(I will post videos of my progress)
Born_to_slice
Legend
That's normal. You're trying to change something that is part of your muscle memory so your body and mind naturally doesn't want to cooperate. You'll need patience and dedication to see it through.
You may feel like you go backwards to start with. What you are doing now is guiding the ball into the court, which feels safe and consistent.
Start swinging that loose arm without even hitting a ball. Keep the racquet on edge and feel it whip over your wrist at the top of your swing. When you introduce a ball to hit, where it goes is unimportant. It can be good to serve at a wall to remove the temptation to tighten up and guide it in again. The result is the loose arm, not where the ball goes.
Only once you are keeping good rhythm doing the above should you worry serving into a court. The result may amaze you.
Start swinging that loose arm without even hitting a ball. Keep the racquet on edge and feel it whip over your wrist at the top of your swing. When you introduce a ball to hit, where it goes is unimportant. It can be good to serve at a wall to remove the temptation to tighten up and guide it in again. The result is the loose arm, not where the ball goes.
Only once you are keeping good rhythm doing the above should you worry serving into a court. The result may amaze you.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
The high level serve has sub-motions that stretch muscles and they are not obvious. If there were simple instruction lists or short paragraphs that explained the strokes without videos for the serve, forehand, backhand, etc. I'm sure that they would have been cut and pasted on the internet, more and more often as the brief lists & paragraphs were successful and that became known. Somehow well qualified instructors are able to teach strokes.
Write down the information that you know about the serve in a paragraph. Study internal shoulder rotation (ISR) and write it again.
This is the only video I know that discuses improving the Waiter's Tray technique, Pat Dougherty's "Hammer that Serve". Be careful because he talks about the WT - but does not use the term WT - and then he switches to the "advanced serve" and back and forth. "Rolling the elbow" is ISR.
There is next to nothing describing other serving techniques, and no other technique that is widely discussed. WT, high level or what?
The best description available, in my opinion, is a high speed video along with words describing each frame.
The toss for a Waiter's Tray serve, I believe, is different than the toss for a high level serve because the racket paths are different. The toss should match the biomechanics of the serve. The timing and location of the toss depends on the height of the toss and serve technique. Probably your toss has to be changed. ? ( I think practicing your toss when you do not know your serving technique is a very bad idea.)
Signature of the high level serve. Look at the path of the racket head.
There is a safety issue with the high level serve technique. If the upper arm is held at too high an angle during the motion, it increases the risk of shoulder impingement. See Ellenbecker video "Rotator Cuff Injury" available with a Tennis Resources membership. See ATP servers who on average show very good practice for the upper arm angle to the shoulder. Search for the many posts on this subject. Ellenbecker Whiteside impingement serve Chas are some search terms. Some of the more thorough posts were a few years ago.
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1stVolley
Professional
Your serve is not really a waiter's tray as @Chas-Tennis says but you have a very abbreviated and misaligned racquet drop. This is costing you a lot of racquet head speed. I suspect this problem is caused by tightness in the wrist or shoulder or both.
If the racquet drop is done correctly, the racquet butt should be pointed up vertically and the racquet should be aligned along the middle or somewhat on the right side of the back. Your racquet is barely dropping below the level of your left shoulder. A likely cause of this tightness and misalignment is the misperception that the serve is muscled by the arm and upper torso. Actually, the serve is a fluid, whip-like motion. A good way to get the proper feeling is to get a long sock, like those used for soccer. Put a couple of tennis balls in it and swing it in a service motion so that, in the racquet drop position, the balls will touch your back pretty far down (the exact depth is determined by how long that sock is and how loose you are keeping your arm, shoulder and wrist. Remember that when you are cracking a whip you need to keep your arm very loose and use the length of the whip to provide the acceleration to the tip of the whip. In tennis, we use the length of the arm and the shaft of the racquet to accelerate the racquet head.
If the racquet drop is done correctly, the racquet butt should be pointed up vertically and the racquet should be aligned along the middle or somewhat on the right side of the back. Your racquet is barely dropping below the level of your left shoulder. A likely cause of this tightness and misalignment is the misperception that the serve is muscled by the arm and upper torso. Actually, the serve is a fluid, whip-like motion. A good way to get the proper feeling is to get a long sock, like those used for soccer. Put a couple of tennis balls in it and swing it in a service motion so that, in the racquet drop position, the balls will touch your back pretty far down (the exact depth is determined by how long that sock is and how loose you are keeping your arm, shoulder and wrist. Remember that when you are cracking a whip you need to keep your arm very loose and use the length of the whip to provide the acceleration to the tip of the whip. In tennis, we use the length of the arm and the shaft of the racquet to accelerate the racquet head.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I used the fact that the racket more faced the sky and that the arm did not appear to rotate much (from ISR) before impact. Place the slider bar on the time scale to find impact and then bring it back until the racket shaft is about level. The racket face then 'more faces the sky'. All frames are well within 5 seconds on the time scale.
What in the video indicates that it is not a Waiter's Tray?
Friedman Whip
Professional
I think the waiters tray look you have comes from your not having a real good continental grip. Long term I think you're be much better off if you would change your grip. Knowing that if your change your grip you have to make some other changes at the same time.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
First and foremost, kudos for the dedication to practice on a wet court. 
My take is that although not terrible, your current motion has some major technical flaws that will prohibit you from developing a real power serve, and adding more knee bend will do nothing to fix those, and in fact will probably only exacerbate the problem.
1 is your trophy, with the racquet "placed" well down your back, almost touching it with your wrist laid back and facing up. This makes it impossible to generate serious racquet head speed via a good racquet drop.
This is demonstrated in 2, which is the deepest part of your racquet drop (problematic). Look at your forearm and how it is pointing almost straight up.
3 shows the racquet and hand/arm, where you are effectively just pushing towards the ball. There's no really aggressive swing here.
Compare 1 above to any high level server's power position. Here are a couple of dudes that use a pinpoint stance and don't have much coil (you have none) for comparison sake.
If they were going to throw, that would be a decent position to unload from. Here is Serena so you get a different angle of her coil and elbow position (the two men above don't actually have really low elbows but the camera angle might make you think that).
There's an oft cited Macci video that recommends starting in the trophy position with the racquet up as in these images. It is long but he gives a good explanation and it is worth watching:
Salzenstein also has a similar video and recommendation:
If you are the impatient type go to 3:00 for the meat and potatoes.
Here's Macci, covering almost exactly the same thing Jeff does above:
You also have this problem:
The elbow the ball drill might help. But given the way you carve the ball with lots of slice, I would suggest these drills for starters to get a feel for a proper swing (the one at 20 seconds where he starts with the racquet up and he demos it again at 54 seconds - notice there no knee bend or huge tilt or rotation, instead he is isolating that one movement):
Good luck.
P.S. landscape video!
Agree completely with @Born_to_slice . You have to work on one thing at a time (sometimes it's possible to implement something simple as an addition, but generally, ONE thing at a time).
My take is that although not terrible, your current motion has some major technical flaws that will prohibit you from developing a real power serve, and adding more knee bend will do nothing to fix those, and in fact will probably only exacerbate the problem.
This is true and is in large part due to your current trophy or power position - the position you reach before you drive with your legs and "go at the ball".
1 is your trophy, with the racquet "placed" well down your back, almost touching it with your wrist laid back and facing up. This makes it impossible to generate serious racquet head speed via a good racquet drop.
This is demonstrated in 2, which is the deepest part of your racquet drop (problematic). Look at your forearm and how it is pointing almost straight up.
3 shows the racquet and hand/arm, where you are effectively just pushing towards the ball. There's no really aggressive swing here.
Compare 1 above to any high level server's power position. Here are a couple of dudes that use a pinpoint stance and don't have much coil (you have none) for comparison sake.
If they were going to throw, that would be a decent position to unload from. Here is Serena so you get a different angle of her coil and elbow position (the two men above don't actually have really low elbows but the camera angle might make you think that).
There's an oft cited Macci video that recommends starting in the trophy position with the racquet up as in these images. It is long but he gives a good explanation and it is worth watching:
Salzenstein also has a similar video and recommendation:
If you are the impatient type go to 3:00 for the meat and potatoes.
Here's Macci, covering almost exactly the same thing Jeff does above:
You also have this problem:
The elbow the ball drill might help. But given the way you carve the ball with lots of slice, I would suggest these drills for starters to get a feel for a proper swing (the one at 20 seconds where he starts with the racquet up and he demos it again at 54 seconds - notice there no knee bend or huge tilt or rotation, instead he is isolating that one movement):
Good luck.
P.S. landscape video!
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1stVolley
Professional
My understanding is that if the racquet face briefly opens to the sky but closes again in the dropped position it is not a waiter's tray. McEnroe and other servers had this motion. If you look at this fellow's final position you will see the racquet face closed although the drop is very abbreviated and misaligned.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
It is not before the racket drop that you look at the well known checkpoint for the high level vs Waiter's Tray.
Where did you get that information?
The farther away from impact the more variations players may display because those positions are not critical to the biomechanics of the high level serve. That is why it is a good idea to avoid the earlier times of the service motion - like before the racket drop - and the follow through because you can see things that vary, and, therefore, don't make good checkpoints.
The lower red arrow shows the racket 'edge on to the ball' for a high level serve and that is also where the 'racket face to sky' appears for an instant for the Waiter's Tray. This instant occurs at about the 'Big L Position'. (but the Waiter's Tray I just realized may have a bent elbow at that position or straight.)
I have also used the information on the HiTech website. Other information is hard to find on the Waiter's Tray but there is some. Some instructors show WT well as a serve flaw. You should check those for where it occurs during the service motion.
Here, the checkpoint is clearly shown and discussed. Defined on the internet.
.
The Waiter's Tray, I recently checked, will show a straight arm or bent elbow so that should be kept in mind. With a bent elbow, sometimes WT does not reach the Big L Position but it is at about the same time of the serve.
But the defining observation is that the arm does not rotate very much from ISR in the last 3 feet of racket head travel before impact. But that is more difficult to see than racket face the sky.
Using the term of 'racket open' or 'edge oriented somewhere' at any time during the service motion is commonly done on the forum. It confuses the issue of what a Waiter's Tray is and what the clear checkpoint for Waiter's Tray is. Since it is such a wide spread issue and so important that's a shame.
Big L Position. Image on the right has a big inverted L.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/serve-experience-with-waiter-tray-position.562182/
All of us can observe by eye the Waiter's Tray racket face to the sky when we are receiving serve.
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eb_tennis_247
Semi-Pro
Very grateful for all the tips.
Waiter tray serve is not really my problem. This video might now show it, but I know I have proper continental grip and I do pronate, but what I definitely don’t do, and suggested videos suggest clearly I should, is a proper, rhythmic take back and racquet swing. I sort of dead drop it there, whereas it looks I need to keep racquet head up, then properly and continuously drop and swing.
I will work on this next, and post an updated video for further critique.
Waiter tray serve is not really my problem. This video might now show it, but I know I have proper continental grip and I do pronate, but what I definitely don’t do, and suggested videos suggest clearly I should, is a proper, rhythmic take back and racquet swing. I sort of dead drop it there, whereas it looks I need to keep racquet head up, then properly and continuously drop and swing.
I will work on this next, and post an updated video for further critique.
1stVolley
Professional
All of your pictures clearly show that the waiter's try position keeps the racquet face open during the racquet drop position and from there to contact there is no pronation because of the server's attempt to mimic a classic groundstroke where the racquet face remains square to the ball during the forward stroke. I got this information from the tennis channel "Feel Tennis". The decisive characteristic of the waiter's tray is this open position from the racquet drop position to contact with the ball, lacking pronation and, as you mention, the "big L position" where you can see the arm pronation taking the racquet from an edge-on position to a flat position at the instant of ball contact.It is not before the racket drop that you look at the well known checkpoint for the high level vs Waiter's Tray.
Where did you get that information?
The farther away from impact the more variations players may display because those positions are not critical to the biomechanics of the high level serve. That is why it is a good idea to avoid the earlier times of the service motion - like before the racket drop - and the follow through because you can see things that vary, and, therefore, don't make good checkpoints.
The lower red arrow shows the racket 'edge on to the ball' for a high level serve and that is also where the 'racket face to sky' appears for an instant for the Waiter's Tray. This instant occurs at about the 'Big L Position'. (but the Waiter's Tray I just realized may have a bent elbow at that position or straight.)
I have also used the information on the HiTech website. Other information is hard to find on the Waiter's Tray but there is some. Some instructors show WT well as a serve flaw. You should check those for where it occurs during the service motion.
Here, the checkpoint is clearly shown and discussed. Defined on the internet.
.
The Waiter's Tray, I recently checked, will show a straight arm or bent elbow so that should be kept in mind. With a bent elbow, sometimes WT does not reach the Big L Position but it is at about the same time of the serve.
But the defining observation is that the arm does not rotate very much from ISR in the last 3 feet of racket head travel before impact. But that is more difficult to see than racket face the sky.
Using the term of 'racket open' or 'edge oriented somewhere' at any time during the service motion is commonly done on the forum. It confuses the issue of what a Waiter's Tray is and what the clear checkpoint for Waiter's Tray is. Since it is such a wide spread issue and so important that's a shame.
Big L Position. Image on the right has a big inverted L.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/serve-experience-with-waiter-tray-position.562182/
All of us can observe by eye the Waiter's Tray racket face to the sky when we are receiving serve.
In this video which contains footage of McEnroe's serve, check out his racquet head position at 0:39. You will see it briefly open to the sky, mimicking the WT motion but then it closes so that, coming to ball contact the racquet assumes it's on-edge orientation.
Nishikori also mimics the WT motion here at 0:12. Like McEnroe, his arm continues to rotate, bringing the racquet face to its proper position in the racquet drop.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
WT or not for the OP's serve was the issue.
Earlier frames from Digital Atheist.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frame (left) showing racket face mostly open to the sky. Frame (right) showing very close to impact. How much does the arm brace rotate from ISR + pronation before impact?
1) With the frame (left) - at this position - I know that the serve is not a high level serve and that it is very likely a Waiter's Tray technique.
2) The frame (right) shows little ISR + pronation. There should be more ISR. (It is not reliable to trust the skin for ISR because the skin can move independently of the bones inside. Bones are the real indication of joint motions. It is better to observe elbow shadows as an indicator of ISR.
Based on the arm brace, there does not appear to be much forearm rotation before impact. I believe that some posters have read that they should 'pronate' and they do ISR and or pronation late, before or after impact. ISR is not effective for racket head speed when done late. The video indicates that the arm brace rotates mostly after impact.
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Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
This is all true but we know OP isn't currently executing a correct trophy position or racquet drop. Doesn't it make sense to address those areas first, and only then observe ISR and pronation, since they are in large part the product of these earlier motions?
Bingo! Once in trophy, after you've done some drilling to reinforce certain movements, all you should really need to think about is swinging at the ball.
TennisDawg
Hall of Fame
More body rotation, also right shoulder and arm is too high on racquet drop. Ideally right shoulder/arm should be in line with your tossing arm. I would do shadow swings on the correct racquet drop and body rotation. You have the right idea. The serve is not easy to learn.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
^^ Yes.
eb_tennis_247
Semi-Pro
I went tonight and practiced for about an hour about ~200 serves with delayed take back with racquet head facing upward and knee bent trophy position, and with a more fluid strike.
Did not record an updated serve yet because I left the phone in the car, it was late, and I was just getting a hang of it.
It is a work in progress. It took me some time to coordinate my otherwise high toss, and rhythm of take back and swing.
I focused on a) racquet head up/elbow down, and b) delayed, more fluid swing with a good racquet speed.
It started as bunch of misses for the 50 serves, the next 50-100 were adjustments, and at about serves 150-200 it settled into an OK set.
Overall, I had lots of long serves (65-70%), some went in the net (about 15-20%), and the rest were either total cannonballs/aces with a few misses like a total doofus.
I will try to record soon, as soon as there is something consistent to record and critique and post the updates.
Thank you all for your help and great tips so far.
Did not record an updated serve yet because I left the phone in the car, it was late, and I was just getting a hang of it.
It is a work in progress. It took me some time to coordinate my otherwise high toss, and rhythm of take back and swing.
I focused on a) racquet head up/elbow down, and b) delayed, more fluid swing with a good racquet speed.
It started as bunch of misses for the 50 serves, the next 50-100 were adjustments, and at about serves 150-200 it settled into an OK set.
Overall, I had lots of long serves (65-70%), some went in the net (about 15-20%), and the rest were either total cannonballs/aces with a few misses like a total doofus.
I will try to record soon, as soon as there is something consistent to record and critique and post the updates.
Thank you all for your help and great tips so far.
Dragy
Legend
Absolutely, one should first get the "throwing" part to a decent level, namely trophy pose (not leaking the racquet back preliminary) and the sequenced: start of body motion -> arm lag/racquet drop -> arm swinging up onto the ball. Next step is to meet racquet and ball at some proper moment and intended stringbed orientation.
I know it feels un-natural, but don't focus on where the ball is going. As long as your arm is loose, you get a good racquet drop and a fluid swing, you've got the racquet on edge and pronating through the ball, they can all hit the back fence. Accuracy will come later.
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