Cross tension always reads a lot lower

[time410s]

Any reason for this? Is it because the crosses tense the mains? I am using that silly tension tool but I'm surprised the reading on the crosses is generally 6 or 8lbs off from the mains even though I do them at the same tension.

What gives? I'm quite consistent in my method with a nice 6 point and my clamps are solid. Should crosses and mains really be much more close in tension?

 

[Crazydoc]

Hey, this has been discussed countless times. it is basically a question of philosophy. I personally choose the tension of the mains ans crosses so that the racket has the same dimensions strung/unstrung. Regards

 

[Wes]

Any reason for this?

Yes, there is, and this has been covered, ad nauseam, before.
Feel free to use the Search function.
"Friction"... perhaps you've heard of it.

I am using that silly tension tool but I'm surprised the reading on the crosses is generally 6 or 8lbs off from the mains even though I do them at the same tension.

"That silly tension tool"? How are we to know exactly which "silly tool" you're even referring to?
Perhaps you should use the name of something, so that people know what you're talking about.

Should crosses and mains really be much more close in tension?

What do you think? Should they really?
Actually think about that.

When you are tensioning your mains, do they have to overcome 16 (or perhaps even 18) individual points of friction?

If you expect your crosses to actually be close to the same tension as your mains, then you'll need to completely omit all the weaves...

... or, conversely, you could increase the tension on your crosses - by quite a bit.

 

[time410s]

Hey, this has been discussed countless times. it is basically a question of philosophy. I personally choose the tension of the mains ans crosses so that the racket has the same dimensions strung/unstrung. Regards

The dimensions are stable for me. Maybe it's ok just an unexpected observation.

 

[time410s]

Yes, there is, and this has been covered, ad nauseam, before.
Feel free to use the Search function.
"Friction"... perhaps you've heard of it.




"That silly tension tool"? How are we to know exactly which "silly tool" you're even referring to?
Perhaps you should use the name of something, so that people know what you're talking about.




What do you think? Should they really?
Actually think about that.

When you are tensioning your mains, do they have to overcome 16 (or perhaps even 18) individual points of friction?

If you expect your crosses to actually be close to the same tension as your mains, then you'll need to completely omit all the weaves...

... or, conversely, you could increase the tension on your crosses - by quite a bit.

I'm asking for advice but this response feels really toxic.

Anyway, it's the tourna tensioner tool. Those threads are such a mess. I get the friction component, I get that the crosses increase the tension on the mains.

But at the end of the job, do you think the tension should be about the same or is 5/8lbs or a little more about right?

I'd much more appreciate helpful advice than being uselessly belittled.

 

[time410s]

Yes, there is, and this has been covered, ad nauseam, before.
Feel free to use the Search function.
"Friction"... perhaps you've heard of it.




"That silly tension tool"? How are we to know exactly which "silly tool" you're even referring to?
Perhaps you should use the name of something, so that people know what you're talking about.




What do you think? Should they really?
Actually think about that.

When you are tensioning your mains, do they have to overcome 16 (or perhaps even 18) individual points of friction?

If you expect your crosses to actually be close to the same tension as your mains, then you'll need to completely omit all the weaves...

... or, conversely, you could increase the tension on your crosses - by quite a bit.

Also a lot of these threads talk about the tension from stringing, not a measured tension from after the job is done so all that data is unhelpful for my question.

 

[Crazydoc]

Why? I'm using a digital caliber to measure the length and the with before and after stringing. If it's the same the relation of main and cross tension is correct for me....

 

[am1899]

Popcorn anyone?

 

[ChrisG]

this escalated quickly

 

[esgee48]

[Note this should be done with a CP. Using a DW is best.] There is a way to determine if crosses are really 5-8# less than mains. Find a frame with a really worn/soft hoop. Measure it's overall length when unstrung. It should be ~ 27" or 68.6 cm long. Now mount the frame and string it with any cheap string, say at 60# ref tension. When finished, try to remove your strung racquuet. If your installed crosses are at 55-52#, you will have issues removing the racquet from your machine. That's because the hoop is squashed by the 60# mains and not supported adequately by the less than 60# crosses. When you remove the racquet, measure it's overall length. It should be 3-6 mm shorter or 1/8-1/4" shorter. HOWEVER, if the racquet just comes off the machine, odds are the differential is less than 2-3#.

If you or your stringer move/push/pull the cross string while it is being pulled, a great majority of the inter-string frictional forces goes away. If you are using a DW, the bar will drop. If using eCP, your tension head will adjust some more.

2nd test would be to do 60# mains and 65# crosses and see what happens to the racquet.

Most of the other posters here are trying to tell you they do not see the frame distort. I check my frame lengths before and after. Without differentials, their lengths are within 1 mm. Now if you are using a crank or LO, then you have to straighten the cross before cranking. There is no chance to pull out frictional forces to the same extent as using a CP tension head. If you straighten the cross after tension and clamping, then I would agree that the crosses are not even close to ref tension. But you can compensate by [1] straighten the cross before pulling [2] partially crank and move the cross before locking out or [1] straighten cross [2] crank quickly [3] release and crank again and clamp.

 

[Erhard]

Why? I'm using a digital caliber to measure the length and the with before and after stringing. If it's the same the relation of main and cross tension is correct for me....

Either your measuring tool is not working properly or you cannot measure.
The length and width of the racket head are not the same before and after stringing. No matter how the ratio of longitudinal and transverse stresses is chosen. That would be a deformation miracle of the material geometry.

 

[time410s]

Either your measuring tool is not working properly or you cannot measure.
The length and width of the racket head are not the same before and after stringing. No matter how the ratio of longitudinal and transverse stresses is chosen. That would be a deformation miracle of the material geometry.

It's extremely close as in lining up the same unstrung frame to the strung frame yields no visible difference nor does it when measuring.

The measuring tool measures the main string at the tension I strung it and the crosses always about 8lbs less.

 

[time410s]

[Note this should be done with a CP. Using a DW is best.] There is a way to determine if crosses are really 5-8# less than mains. Find a frame with a really worn/soft hoop. Measure it's overall length when unstrung. It should be ~ 27" or 68.6 cm long. Now mount the frame and string it with any cheap string, say at 60# ref tension. When finished, try to remove your strung racquuet. If your installed crosses are at 55-52#, you will have issues removing the racquet from your machine. That's because the hoop is squashed by the 60# mains and not supported adequately by the less than 60# crosses. When you remove the racquet, measure it's overall length. It should be 3-6 mm shorter or 1/8-1/4" shorter. HOWEVER, if the racquet just comes off the machine, odds are the differential is less than 2-3#.

If you or your stringer move/push/pull the cross string while it is being pulled, a great majority of the inter-string frictional forces goes away. If you are using a DW, the bar will drop. If using eCP, your tension head will adjust some more.

2nd test would be to do 60# mains and 65# crosses and see what happens to the racquet.

Most of the other posters here are trying to tell you they do not see the frame distort. I check my frame lengths before and after. Without differentials, their lengths are within 1 mm. Now if you are using a crank or LO, then you have to straighten the cross before cranking. There is no chance to pull out frictional forces to the same extent as using a CP tension head. If you straighten the cross after tension and clamping, then I would agree that the crosses are not even close to ref tension. But you can compensate by [1] straighten the cross before pulling [2] partially crank and move the cross before locking out or [1] straighten cross [2] crank quickly [3] release and crank again and clamp.

I'm using a 6 point DW. I see what you mean about straightening the crosses... But I also don't want to leave that smiley face effect so I do straighten them out after pulling the tension but as I'm doing good it is still maintaining the pull. And after the whole bed is done I will double check everything is straight.

 

[Steve Huff]

[Note this should be done with a CP. Using a DW is best.] There is a way to determine if crosses are really 5-8# less than mains. Find a frame with a really worn/soft hoop. Measure it's overall length when unstrung. It should be ~ 27" or 68.6 cm long. Now mount the frame and string it with any cheap string, say at 60# ref tension. When finished, try to remove your strung racquuet. If your installed crosses are at 55-52#, you will have issues removing the racquet from your machine. That's because the hoop is squashed by the 60# mains and not supported adequately by the less than 60# crosses. When you remove the racquet, measure it's overall length. It should be 3-6 mm shorter or 1/8-1/4" shorter. HOWEVER, if the racquet just comes off the machine, odds are the differential is less than 2-3#.

If you or your stringer move/push/pull the cross string while it is being pulled, a great majority of the inter-string frictional forces goes away. If you are using a DW, the bar will drop. If using eCP, your tension head will adjust some more.

2nd test would be to do 60# mains and 65# crosses and see what happens to the racquet.

Most of the other posters here are trying to tell you they do not see the frame distort. I check my frame lengths before and after. Without differentials, their lengths are within 1 mm. Now if you are using a crank or LO, then you have to straighten the cross before cranking. There is no chance to pull out frictional forces to the same extent as using a CP tension head. If you straighten the cross after tension and clamping, then I would agree that the crosses are not even close to ref tension. But you can compensate by [1] straighten the cross before pulling [2] partially crank and move the cross before locking out or [1] straighten cross [2] crank quickly [3] release and crank again and clamp.

You could always tension the cross, straighten it out, then tension it again. Before I got my Wise, that's usually what I did.

 

[Jerry Seinfeld]

To directly respond to the OP.

If stringing at same tension it is perfectly normal for the String Meter to show a difference of approx 30% between the mains and crosses.

 

[time410s]

To directly respond to the OP.

If stringing at same tension it is perfectly normal for the String Meter to show a difference of approx 30% between the mains and crosses.

THANK YOU. Simple question, simple answer.

 

[Wes]

THANK YOU. Simple question, simple answer.

Indeed, that is a simple answer - to a simple question.
However, that question is not the question which you asked.

You actually asked 3 questions, and none of them was along the lines of...
"Is it perfectly normal for the String Meter to show a difference between the mains and crosses? And, if so, how much of a difference?"

Instead, what you asked was...

(Cross tension always reads a lot lower)... Any reason for this?

Yes, friction.

Is it because the crosses tense the mains?

Crosses don't tense mains.

Should crosses and mains really be much more close in tension?

No.


Those are simple answers to the questions which you did ask.

 

[time410s]

Indeed, that is a simple answer - to a simple question.
However, that question is not the question which you asked.

You actually asked 3 questions, and none of them was along the lines of...
"Is it perfectly normal for the String Meter to show a difference between the mains and crosses? And, if so, how much of a difference?"

Instead, what you asked was...

Yes, friction.


Crosses don't tense mains.


No.


Those are simple answers to the questions which you did ask.

Thanks again but I guess I just wanted to know if my stringjobs are alright or if this is the expected outcome or if it's some implication that I'm doing something incorrectly or something about my machine might be off, etc.

Sorry I still just don't feel like your initial response answered anything. It was a reply, indeed, but it didn't do anything to actually answer my question(s) but there were a lot of words and some belittling.

Maybe you can sense the essence of my question or the general intention of it but you get off way more on picking apart the way in which the questions were asked instead of just being kind and helpful with your knowledge.

That's really the vibe I get from your responses: Super pedantic and arrogant while simultaneously being completely unhelpful. All the while it seems like you understand a lot, as well as the intention of my questions, however, you just prefer to reply in this arrogant style instead of something actually helpful. Maybe all of your expertise has made you more bitter than it has helpful, I don't know. This is all really assuming you actually have something helpful to reply with but it's all disguised by a really pretentious energy.

 

[Crazydoc]

Thanks again but I guess I just wanted to know if my stringjobs are alright or if this is the expected outcome or if it's some implication that I'm doing something incorrectly or something about my machine might be off, etc.

Hey, I'll try again. If I understand you correctly, you want to know why the cross strings at a set tension on your machine, do not reflect that weight on the finished racquet measured with your tool. Also, you seem to be interested in finding out if you strung a racket with the correct stringing ratio, or if something went wrong with the stringing. And of course, the friction between the strings reduces the tension to be measured on the racket. The whole stringing itself consists of losses. The question is only how much and how far you can minimize them.

I don't know how others do it, but I do it like this:

In order for the racket to have the same dimensions (racket head length, racket head width) after stringing as when unstrung, a correct length/cross ratio must be set during stringing. This must be determined individually depending on the racket, string pattern, friction of the strings, etc. To controll the right ratios I use a digital caliber with which I measure and compare the dimensions of the racket head before and after stringing.

The second thing is to check the tension of the string bed after each stringing. I determine this with a Stringlab2, Ert300 or a frequency measurement.
For me it's importand and also desired, that I can reproduce once stringjob over and over again.
This value (DT) will vary somewhat depending on the stringer, experience and machine.

Add:

That's really the vibe I get from your responses: Super pedantic and arrogant while simultaneously being completely unhelpful. All the while it seems like you understand a lot, as well as the intention of my questions, however, you just prefer to reply in this arrogant style instead of something actually helpful. Maybe all of your expertise has made you more bitter than it has helpful, I don't know. This is all really assuming you actually have something helpful to reply with but it's all disguised by a really pretentious energy.

I cannot understand this reaction. Just because you does not like the answer to your question, does not mean that the answer is bad!

regards

 

[time410s]

Hey, I'll try again. If I understand you correctly, you want to know why the cross strings at a set tension on your machine, do not reflect that weight on the finished racquet measured with your tool. Also, you seem to be interested in finding out if you strung a racket with the correct stringing ratio, or if something went wrong with the stringing. And of course, the friction between the strings reduces the tension to be measured on the racket. The whole stringing itself consists of losses. The question is only how much and how far you can minimize them.

I don't know how others do it, but I do it like this:

In order for the racket to have the same dimensions (racket head length, racket head width) after stringing as when unstrung, a correct length/cross ratio must be set during stringing. This must be determined individually depending on the racket, string pattern, friction of the strings, etc. To controll the right ratios I use a digital caliber with which I measure and compare the dimensions of the racket head before and after stringing.

The second thing is to check the tension of the string bed after each stringing. I determine this with a Stringlab2, Ert300 or a frequency measurement.
For me it's importand and also desired, that I can reproduce once stringjob over and over again.
This value (DT) will vary somewhat depending on the stringer, experience and machine.

Add:



I cannot understand this reaction. Just because you does not like the answer to your question, does not mean that the answer is bad!

regards

I was replying to Wes about the arrogance, not you. That being said I stand by what I said about his reply and I'm surprised if other's do not see what I'm talking about.

Thanks for explaining. Tension when measured in pitch comes out fine but that's because you get some kind of average from the bed overall. I think you get what I mean but in other words, what basically happened is I strung (same strings) the whole bed at 58lbe. After it was done, the tension measurement tool that works by bending the strings to measure tension, reads the mains at about 58 and the crosses at like 45. I was surprised at how much lower they came out relative to the mains.

You must be talking about a micrometer to measure change in string thickness after pulling tension? My racket length is the same length before and after the job so I'm not detectably warping the frame.

 

[struggle]

Amen.

 

[Erhard]

It's extremely close as in lining up the same unstrung frame to the strung frame yields no visible difference nor does it when measuring.

The measuring tool measures the main string at the tension I strung it and the crosses always about 8lbs less.

I think we're talking about different things.
I'm talking about length and width in relation to frame deformation before and after stringing.

 

[struggle]

I was replying to Wes about the arrogance, not you. That being said I stand by what I said about his reply and I'm surprised if other's do not see what I'm talking about.

Thanks for explaining. Tension when measured in pitch comes out fine but that's because you get some kind of average from the bed overall. I think you get what I mean but in other words, what basically happened is I strung (same strings) the whole bed at 58lbe. After it was done, the tension measurement tool that works by bending the strings to measure tension, reads the mains at about 58 and the crosses at like 45. I was surprised at how much lower they came out relative to the mains.

You must be talking about a micrometer to measure change in string thickness after pulling tension? My racket length is the same length before and after the job so I'm not detectably warping the frame.

You want to worry more about DT than you do each individual string, i think. Yes, due to friction, the crosses will read lower.
IMO, being that the mains do the majority of the "work" you actually want the crosses at a "lower tension", but the bed
itself does function as a unit. I consider the crosses as just a placeholder for the mains that you choose, for whatever reason.
They will also mitigate or enhance the mains, preferably, pending your desires.

 

[time410s]

I think we're talking about different things.
I'm talking about length and width in relation to frame deformation before and after stringing.

Oh ok so you're using this caliper to measure the racket, not the strings? Sorry.

 

[time410s]

You want to worry more about DT than you do each individual string, i think. Yes, due to friction, the crosses will read lower.
IMO, being that the mains do the majority of the "work" you actually want the crosses at a "lower tension", but the bed
itself does function as a unit. I consider the crosses as just a placeholder for the mains that you choose, for whatever reason.
They will also mitigate or enhance the mains, preferably, pending your desires.

I agree. I guess this would be more widely known if it wasn't supposed to be this way. Maybe everyone just thinks the crosses and mains are the same tension but really you just apply that force to the strings and naturally the crosses will have less than the mains and that's just fine, yeah?

It was just throwing me for a loop to see the numbers be that different.

 

[Erhard]

Oh ok so you're using this caliper to measure the racket, not the strings? Sorry.

No Problem!

 

[kkm]

The crosses also undo some of the hoop compression caused by the mains. Try measuring main string tension before putting the crosses in, and measure main string tension after the crosses are in.

 

[fritzhimself]

...............

 

[time410s]

Well, I don't think much of the String Meter estimator.
As far as I can remember, Mr. Cross had used this only at Syn Gut. With Co-Poly, the whole system should lie like crazy.
Perhaps someone can explain to me how one can read absolute numbers from it and then also still interpret as "genuine"/"real"?
How does the steel spring from China know if it is a stretchy or stiff string?
I don't think this thing knows relaxation either, which starts as soon as you set the clamp and tension the next string.
As I said, these are all fantasy numbers and never reflect reality.

It doesn't but it can tell you if it's lost tension or has more tension etc. It's all relatively measured but that's still helpful.

 

[fritzhimself]

.............

 

[LOBALOT]

Well, I don't think much of the String Meter estimator.
As far as I can remember, Mr. Cross had used this only at Syn Gut. With Co-Poly, the whole system should lie like crazy.
Perhaps someone can explain to me how one can read absolute numbers from it and then also still interpret as "genuine"/"real"?
How does the steel spring from China know if it is a stretchy or stiff string?
I don't think this thing knows relaxation either, which starts as soon as you set the clamp and tension the next string.
As I said, these are all fantasy numbers and never reflect reality.

I recall the same concerns expressed in the late 70s in Tennis Magazine back when Tennis Magazine was a real magazine. I just don't think the gizmo works well.

 

[struggle]

The instrument is not at all "useless", but it does have limitations.

 

[Irvin]

Well, I don't think much of the String Meter estimator.
As far as I can remember, Mr. Cross had used this only at Syn Gut. With Co-Poly, the whole system should lie like crazy.
Perhaps someone can explain to me how one can read absolute numbers from it and then also still interpret as "genuine"/"real"?
How does the steel spring from China know if it is a stretchy or stiff string?
I don't think this thing knows relaxation either, which starts as soon as you set the clamp and tension the next string.
As I said, these are all fantasy numbers and never reflect reality.

Soft strings not just nylon.

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/PUBLICATIONS/June2001.pdf

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/PUBLICATIONS/July2001.pdf

 

[LOBALOT]

Soft strings not just nylon.

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/PUBLICATIONS/June2001.pdf

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/PUBLICATIONS/July2001.pdf

Thanks Irvin I recall reading a similar article as I indicated above when I was a kid. It of course didn't reference devices like the ERT but basically provided the information you have around the Stringmeter.

 

[fritzhimself]

..................

 

[Irvin]

Thanks Irvin I recall reading a similar article as I indicated above when I was a kid. It of course didn't reference devices like the ERT but basically provided the information you have around the Stringmeter.

They did use the ERT700 in the June article. Doesn’t really matter to me though I don’t trust Any method too much.

 

[time410s]

yes exactly - you can believe what you want - but does not change the facts.

I think it's useful. It's a spring that bends with a gauge for tension. It gives you a good sense of tension difference between strings or loss over time. Things like friction could mess with it a little bit but again, it's all relative which kind of evens out the variables. I wouldn't rely on the numbers at face value but you can put them into context and at least know to some degree how quickly you lose tension or how your machine/job corresponds to the displayed tension on this meter. It's a way to measure individual tension as opposed to a sound method that takes the entire stringbed.

It can also at least tell me if a subtle change in tension on my machine is detectable by this silly tool at all.

I guess I'd recommend it just as something to help consistency or understanding your strings a little better.

 

[struggle]

It’s every bit as useful as racquet tune is, IMO.

The ERT is where gadgets start to give real, accurate info. Even then, knowing that most players can’t tell a 10# difference means a lot of these numbers are essentially snake oil.

 

[time410s]

It’s every bit as useful as racquet tune is, IMO.

The ERT is where gadgets start to give real, accurate info. Even then, knowing that most players can’t tell a 10# difference means a lot of these numbers are essentially snake oil.

Well if you give me a racket strung 10 pounds less than the next identical racket, I could surely tell you which one it is. I think a lot of players can tell but sure, a large portion wouldn't really notice. Most players let their strings age for months before restringing but I break 16 gauge poly strings every week. But sure, it's about as useful as racquet tune but in a different way. The combo of them might be all together pretty insightful.

 

[ChimpChimp]

Since yiu have a tension meter you may try to string crosses unweaved, then you know how many pounds of difference friction contributes.

 

[Wes]

Since yiu have a tension meter you may try to string crosses unweaved, then you know how many pounds of difference friction contributes.

That's a good idea. He should definitely try that little experiment.

The notion of installing the crosses, without any weaving, is what I had eluded to...

If you expect your crosses to actually be close to the same tension as your mains, then you'll need to completely omit all the weaves...

 

[time410s]

Since yiu have a tension meter you may try to string crosses unweaved, then you know how many pounds of difference friction contributes.

That could be interesting but my main question was if my resulting tension sounds like the result that is desired or not. And I guess it is so I'm pretty satisfied with my results. I wanted to know if this means I was stringing poorly or if I should add several pounds so that my measured tension after the job was more close with cross/main.

 

[fritzhimself]

............................

 

[time410s]

Maybe you're following the wrong path.
In reality, after stringing, the frame should have the same dimensions as unstrung.

The string pattern lengthwise/crosswise must always be in a healthy ratio. In addition, one must consider the different elongations of poly and multi in hybrid stringing in relation to each other.
Each frame becomes wider by up to 8mm after the longitudinal strings in the stringing machine. Of course, that depends on the frame and your machine and the string used. The better the tensioning cage, the less this is influenced by the force of the longitudinal strings. In order to reverse this compression, you must therefore research the correct weight of the cross stringing - every frame type reacts differently.

If you put too much or too little weight on the cross strings, the frame can be compressed or stretched. This means that the cross strings were strung too soft or too hard. This should be avoided at all costs. A good stringer should know this.

Yes I always have the same length before and after.

 

[d-quik]

Lol @time410s I know some of the replies may seem toxic but they really are tryna help . When you ask people who string for a living you gotta realize these people have been working for really finnicky, detailed, precise people: the tennis players. Everything is super detailed.

So in this environment they have to constantly give detailed answers but is not possible without a detailed question to begin with.

The so called toxicity at least isn't unfounded (ie. calling you an ass for no reason) and it is actually just them being frustrated they arent able to give the super specific, quality, and detailed answers that the expect you to expect.

At the end of the day they are actually still trying to help you despite whatever foul language they are using. Look past the language use and you will see valuable content.

Words used: trash
Actions taken: helpful/informative

But actions speak louder than words. So ignore the words

If someone gives you 50 dollars for free but says **** you, it is still helpful.

Good luck broski. Hope you understand and realize it is not personal. They are pissed because you aren't even helping yourself. They arw pissed "for you" not "at you".

 

[Erhard]

Yes I always have the same length before and after.

You make miracles come true!

 

[fritzhimself]

.............

 

[Crazydoc]

 

[fritzhimself]

...............

 

[time410s]

..............maybe you can get a better idea of the behavior of the strings from the graphic in this link..........?

String Machine vs Racquet Tension | appmaker.se

That is interesting! I hope it's clear that I feel I understand that my observation is basically just a disorienting result and I wasn't necessarily here for a lot of the reasons it seems it was assumed that I was. I was merely asking if the result was normal or as expected of a well done string job or not and I feel like a lot of tangents and unrelated things came up or the question/advice given was somehow lost in the process of everything.

It was rather frustrating all in all but I feel find about it, my racket does not undergo any warping or distorting as such that the frame changes length when it is done, etc. I think everything about the final result of my stringjob is fine but measuring with my tension tool was throwing me for a loop as I didn't expect the crosses to be that much lower than the mains when both were strung at the same tension.

I hope that calms the thread.