Curious case of Andy Murray

Bukmeikara

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If he wins Us Open and ends 2016 as number 1 - he would probably have a "better" number 1 year than anything Sampras, Borg and the rest produced in their time. In his favor would be that he did it with Novak Djokovic around but with an overal very weak top 20 including the long absence of some key players like Federer, Nadal, Del Potro and Tipsarevic!
 
These are all very big 'ifs'. Let's wait and see if he is likely to accomplish all this before considering the various ramifications.

It came down to the YEC a couple years ago! I feel Nole has a formula to prepare and be at his best over the FALL/Winter! Winning Shanghai, Beijing, Paris, & WTF are just about routine for the guy! Why should this year be any different? Murray not only has to win USO, he needs to take 2 of the other Masters to make sure to achieve and keep #1 ranking IMO! :rolleyes: :p ;)
 
If he wins Us Open and ends 2016 as number 1 - he would probably have a "better" number 1 year than anything Sampras, Borg and the rest produced in their time.

Borg had multiple years where he won both the French Open in an era when half the population of the tennis world specialized in truly slow clay court tennis, and then Wimbledon in an era when the other half the population of the tennis world specialized in truly fast grass court tennis -- both against guys who are in the GOAT discussion for those particular surfaces.

Murray beat Raonic.
 
Borg had multiple years where he won both the French Open in an era when half the population of the tennis world specialized in truly slow clay court tennis, and then Wimbledon in an era when the other half the population of the tennis world specialized in truly fast grass court tennis, both against guys who are in the GOAT discussion for those particular surfaces.

Murray beat Raonic.

People do lose perspective after a couple decades! There's a reason Borg is still revered after all this time; winning back to back like that without even a warm up event! The man was truly special and GREAT! :rolleyes: :p ;)
 
Forget winning Wimbledon and multiple Olympic gold medals - if Murray were to finish this year at #1 it would be not only his greatest achievement but IMO one of the greatest achievements the sport's ever witnessed, considering he was 9000 points behind Djokovic at the beginning of May!
 
He just got pounced by Cilic. I doubt he'll win the USO if Nadal/Nole are playing reasonable enough. Del Potro/Cilic can beat him to if they don't have a tough draw where they tire out
 
Forget winning Wimbledon and multiple Olympic gold medals - if Murray were to finish this year at #1 it would be not only his greatest achievement but IMO one of the greatest achievements the sport's ever witnessed, considering he was 9000 points behind Djokovic at the beginning of May!

To me, that just proved how great a season Nole had the previous year; needing to defend a lot of points! Let's keep things in perspective! :rolleyes: :p ;)
 
Borg had multiple years where he won both the French Open in an era when half the population of the tennis world specialized in truly slow clay court tennis, and then Wimbledon in an era when the other half the population of the tennis world specialized in truly fast grass court tennis -- both against guys who are in the GOAT discussion for those particular surfaces.

Murray beat Raonic.
and Borg also turned around and did it on carpet against some of the best carpet players ever too.
 
Forget winning Wimbledon and multiple Olympic gold medals - if Murray were to finish this year at #1 it would be not only his greatest achievement but IMO one of the greatest achievements the sport's ever witnessed, considering he was 9000 points behind Djokovic at the beginning of May!
No big deal because....who cares about points from 2015 in the 2016 year end no 1 discussion? Unless you meant the Race. Which is still no big deal considering Federer was several thousand points behind Nadal in the 2009 Race until he turned it around in 3 tournaments (Madrid, FO, Wimbledon).
 
No big deal because....who cares about points from 2015 in the 2016 year end no 1 discussion? Unless you meant the Race. Which is still no big deal considering Federer was several thousand points behind Nadal in the 2009 Race until he turned it around in 3 tournaments (Madrid, FO, Wimbledon).
All I meant was Djokovic being so ahead of the field at the time(I believe he had as many points as both Murray and Federer put together) would make the achievement of Murray finishing at #1 this year all the more impressive. I understand the difference between the race and the 52 week rolling ranking.
 
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All I meant was Djokovic being so ahead of the field at the time(I believe he had twice as many points as both Murray and Federer put together) would make the achievement of Murray finishing at #1 this year all the more impressive. I understand the difference between the race and the 52 week rolling ranking.

Djokovic isn't at the same level though. Let's not get too carried away.

Djokovic had as many point as #2 and #3 put together, more in fact, but not twice more.
 
He just got pounced by Cilic. I doubt he'll win the USO if Nadal/Nole are playing reasonable enough. Del Potro/Cilic can beat him to if they don't have a tough draw where they tire out
He's usually get very easy draws lately. I'm pretty sure Nadal, Cilic and Delpo will be in the Djokovic part of the draw, with Raonic and Stan as the Murray's toughest opponents in his part of the draw.
 
He's usually get very easy draws lately. I'm pretty sure Nadal, Cilic and Delpo will be in the Djokovic part of the draw, with Raonic and Stan as the Murray's toughest opponents in his part of the draw.

His Wimbledon draw was - Kyrgios(future n1 and Wimb champion), Tsonga(two time former SF), Berdych(former F) and Raonic(probably future n1, Wimb champ and former SF) - pretty much 4 of the top 8 grass players.
 
His Wimbledon draw was - Kyrgios(future n1 and Wimb champion), Tsonga(two time former SF), Berdych(former F) and Raonic(probably future n1, Wimb champ and former SF) - pretty much 4 of the top 8 grass players.
Lol give me a break! He needed Federer in the Djokovic's part of the draw at Wimbledon and the AO and of course he got it. At the FO the main pre draw topic was were will Rafa end up. And the winner was again Djokovic. His Rome draw was really pathetic. At the Olympics Rafa and Delpo once more far away from Murray in the draw. The last time he got fairly competitive draw was last year's US Open. Since he became #2 somehow he always get Wawrinka as a possible SF opponent. Weird stuff!
 
I think Murray would've still beaten them even if they'd been playing better mate.

I expect so to. Though the cumulative effect might have had an impact.

His draws have been soft lately though, but that's just the tour at the minute. Federer is gone, Nadal is barely playing, Djokovic injured, Wawrinka MIA - stalwarts like Berdych, Tsonga, Ferrer declining and the Raonic/Nishikori/Dimi generation are pretty pathetic. Great time to be in form.
 
I expect so too. Though the cumulative effect might have had an impact.

His draws have been soft lately though, but that's just the tour at the minute. Federer is gone, Nadal is barely playing, Djokovic injured, Wawrinka MIA - stalwarts like Berdych, Tsonga, Ferrer declining and the Raonic/Nishikori/Dimi generation are pretty pathetic. Great time to be in form.
Sorry mate but I just had to correct you. Don't hate me for it!! :p
 
He just got pounced by Cilic. I doubt he'll win the USO if Nadal/Nole are playing reasonable enough. Del Potro/Cilic can beat him to if they don't have a tough draw where they tire out

I don't think Nadal will playing well enough, but I agree Novak will take them out if they meet I would have to think. Murray has to show he can beat Novak in B05 again, before I'll believe it...his last win in that format was at Wimbledon 2013, more than 3 years ago.

Since then he's lost all 5 BO5 slam matches to Novak. If Nadal is playing well enough to reach a semi or final vs. Murray,then I'd think he has a good shot as well; Murray doesn't match up well with him.

I think it's possible someone else takes out Novak like in Wimbledon, in that case I would favor Murray to win the tournament.
 
Forget winning Wimbledon and multiple Olympic gold medals - if Murray were to finish this year at #1 it would be not only his greatest achievement but IMO one of the greatest achievements the sport's ever witnessed, considering he was 9000 points behind Djokovic at the beginning of May!
Really now? Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

2 slams and 1 master in a dilapidated era is the greatest achievement for Murray, definitely not tennis.
 
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With a lot of question marks on Djokovic's form, USO '16 will attract a lot of interest from tennis world. Can Murray take advantage of the situation and win USO? I think USO is a good tournament for Murray, suits his style, so I believe he can. Let's wait and find out.
 
Stop the exaggeration. Murray will finish the year as no2 AND Djokovic will win US Open. There is no other way around.
 
I don't think Nadal will playing well enough, but I agree Novak will take them out if they meet I would have to think. Murray has to show he can beat Novak in B05 again, before I'll believe it...his last win in that format was at Wimbledon 2013, more than 3 years ago.

Since then he's lost all 5 BO5 slam matches to Novak. If Nadal is playing well enough to reach a semi or final vs. Murray,then I'd think he has a good shot as well; Murray doesn't match up well with him.

I think it's possible someone else takes out Novak like in Wimbledon, in that case I would favor Murray to win the tournament.
Who else will take out Djokovic? Ninjakori? Raonic? Grandpadal? The ghost of Roger Federer?

Sure, Djoko will win USO, but it's meaningless.
 
Who else will take out Djokovic? Ninjakori? Raonic? Grandpadal? The ghost of Roger Federer?

Sure, Djoko will win USO, but it's meaningless.

Nishikori, he wants to be Uniqlo's number 1 guy. Now is the time to strike.
 
I see a clown who tries catching pokemon on court, a frenchman, king of the mugs, and heir to the throne of mugdom.

Maybe you should learn to respect people more because you are talking about the number 18, number 10, number 8 and number 6 in the world and they are coming from hunderd of thousands.
 
Lol give me a break! He needed Federer in the Djokovic's part of the draw at Wimbledon and the AO and of course he got it. At the FO the main pre draw topic was were will Rafa end up. And the winner was again Djokovic. His Rome draw was really pathetic. At the Olympics Rafa and Delpo once more far away from Murray in the draw. The last time he got fairly competitive draw was last year's US Open. Since he became #2 somehow he always get Wawrinka as a possible SF opponent. Weird stuff!

He is number 2 in the world - he won the privilege to avoid Federer and Djokovic. His Rome was pathetic but his Madrid was nightmare - Simon, Berdych, Nadal and Djokovic. In Monte Carlo Herbert, Paire, Raonic and Nadal. People like you would always see the negative side of things. With Federer/Nadal being out whom do you expect Andy to meet in the SF - Wawrinka offcource and its not his fault that the later is hot and cold so often.

Since being a 4-5 years old kids - those guys have played tennis for propably 3-4 hours per day - it' pathetic to call them mugs when they are multimilionaires at 20-25..............
 
Nishikori, he wants to be Uniqlo's number 1 guy. Now is the time to strike.

The rest of the tour would have to really fall on it's face! I think it's ridiculous Murray is threatening the #1 ranking when Nole has 2 majors, 4 Masters wins, and on pretty much the same run as '11 & '15! Not sure how Kei could break into the top 2 much less #1 even if he were to win USO! There has to be a year long string of wins and so far he's been unable to stay on court for more than a few weeks! Maybe I'm missing something; just been watching, teaching, and collecting tennis history for 45+ years! :rolleyes: :p ;)
 
He just got pounced by Cilic. I doubt he'll win the USO if Nadal/Nole are playing reasonable enough. Del Potro/Cilic can beat him to if they don't have a tough draw where they tire out
I find your comment biased. You believe that Cilic should not be tired to take Murray but Cilic beating an already tired Murray is an achievement to you. You call it even pouncing Murray! Funny. People here at very biased in their view. If Murray won then his opponent was tired. If Murray is beaten then he is pounced without giving any credit to the amazing run he has from Wimbledon. Everyone expected Andy to lose at some stage in Cincinatti, but he came till final. This it self is a great achievement.

Cilic first of all will not make deep into US open. Even if he does, Murray will stream roll him. Period. Cilic has nothing to threaten Murray. Murray's game is far superior to Cilic by all standards.
 
If he wins Us Open and ends 2016 as number 1 - he would probably have a "better" number 1 year than anything Sampras, Borg and the rest produced in their time. In his favor would be that he did it with Novak Djokovic around but with an overal very weak top 20 including the long absence of some key players like Federer, Nadal, Del Potro and Tipsarevic!

Another aspect of this strange case:

- Andy Murray might win the US Open, have a year up there with the great years, and still not finish #1, in part because there are no ranking points for the Olympics this year.

(I'm not sure it really would be a greater year than any produced by Sampras or Borg, but it would still be an excellent year).
 
I find your comment biased. You believe that Cilic should not be tired to take Murray but Cilic beating an already tired Murray is an achievement to you. You call it even pouncing Murray! Funny. People here at very biased in their view. If Murray won then his opponent was tired. If Murray is beaten then he is pounced without giving any credit to the amazing run he has from Wimbledon. Everyone expected Andy to lose at some stage in Cincinatti, but he came till final. This it self is a great achievement.

Cilic first of all will not make deep into US open. Even if he does, Murray will stream roll him. Period. Cilic has nothing to threaten Murray. Murray's game is far superior to Cilic by all standards.

I guess someone forgot Cilic played into the night to finish his match due to rain and still got out there and performed well in the final! There are more than 1 kind of tired though; having a hard time in matches in that particular tournament, then the exhaustion of "the tour" and grind of a season! There is a difference I guess! Murray has been playing final after final like Nole of '11 & '15! He's definitely not accustomed to that and should not have even gone to Cincy with the USO around the corner! :rolleyes: :p ;)
 
Another aspect of this strange case:

- Andy Murray might win the US Open, have a year up there with the great years, and still not finish #1, in part because there are no ranking points for the Olympics this year.

(I'm not sure it really would be a greater year than any produced by Sampras or Borg, but it would still be an excellent year).

I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone sometimes! A few good results and a great run and some are ready to bestow deification on a player; RIDICULOUS! Someone needs to be smacked trying to compare the brilliance of Borg and Sampras to this Mugrat with a game I'd rather not watch! Maybe I'm just tired or missing something! :rolleyes: :p ;)
 
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I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone sometimes! A few good results and a great run and some of ready to bestow deification on a player; RIDICULOUS! Someone needs to be smacked trying to compare the brilliance of Borg and Sampras to this Mugrat with a game I'd rather not watch! Maybe I'm just tired or missing something! :rolleyes: :p ;)

I think it's the result of judging yesterday's players by today's standards. By today's standards, a Murray with a US Open title might indeed have a claim to have had a better year than any of those of Sampras or Borg, because:

a. Murray would have two Slam titles, and neither Sampras nor Borg ever won three in a year.
b. Murray would have been in all four Slam finals, and neither Sampras nor Borg ever achieved that.
c. Murray would also have the Olympic title.

However, today's standards aren't the universal, timeless standards by which all players from all times must be judged. Things have changed somewhat since the mid-to-late 1990s, when Sampras was around, and they have changed a lot since the late 1970s, when Borg was in his heyday. In particular:

a. There was no tennis at the Olympics when Borg was around, and the event was really not very important when Sampras was around. Barcelona 1992 got a good field but tons of upsets. Atlanta 1996 and Sydney 2000 had rather mediocre fields to begin with.
b. The Australian Open wasn't very important in Borg's day. It was much more important in Sampras's day, but arguably not as important as it is today.
c. The year-end events were very important during both the Borg and the Sampras era.
d. The Masters 1000 series didn't really exist in Borg's era and wasn't compulsory in Sampras's and so wasn't nearly as important as it is today.
e. The regular ATP events were thus slightly more important than they are today.

A Murray with the US Open title would have five titles from nine finals in 2016. He'd have won Wimbledon, the US Open, the Olympics, Rome, and Queen's, and lost the final of the Australian Open, Roland Garros, Madrid, and Cincinnati. A great year, yes. But here's Sampras's 1994:

won the Australian Open and Wimbledon.
won the ATP Tour World Championships, which is now the tour finals. [for the sake of argument, let's call this equivalent to Murray's Olympic title.]
won Indian Wells, Miami, and Rome. [Three MS 1000 events to Murray's one].
won Sydney, Osaka, Tokyo, and Antwerp. [Four regular tour events to Murray's one].
won titles on grass, clay, outdoor hard, and indoor carpet. [There weren't many indoor hard events back then, anyway Murray hasn't won any indoor events yet in 2016].
had a match record of 77-12 [86.52%, Murray with a US Open title would be, assuming he didn't benefit from any withdrawals, 57-7, or 81.43%].
reached 12 finals overall, losing Queen's and the Grand Slam Cup.

I think that's at least comparable to Murray's 2016, even with the US Open title, unless Murray also does something of note during the fall season.

And here's Borg's 1979:
won Roland Garros and Wimbledon.
won 11 other tour titles, including at least a couple of year-end events and precursors to the MS series. The full list is: Richmond WCT, Pepsi Grand Slam, Rotterdam, Monte Carlo, Las Vegas, Bastad, Canada, Palermo, Tokyo Indoor, WCT Challenge Cup, Masters.
won titles on grass, clay, indoor carpet, and outdoor hard.
reached 14 finals overall.
had a match record of 84-6 [93.33%]. Two of those six losses were against McEnroe (three of Murray's seven losses have been against Djokovic). Went 6-0 against Connors, who was 26 for most of 1979, but turned 27 in early September.
 
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Another aspect of this strange case:

- Andy Murray might win the US Open, have a year up there with the great years, and still not finish #1, in part because there are no ranking points for the Olympics this year.

(I'm not sure it really would be a greater year than any produced by Sampras or Borg, but it would still be an excellent year).
Forget winning Wimbledon and multiple Olympic gold medals - if Murray were to finish this year at #1 it would be not only his greatest achievement but IMO one of the greatest achievements the sport's ever witnessed, considering he was 9000 points behind Djokovic at the beginning of May!
Gold Medal was worth 750 points in 2012, so Murray less than 500 points down by that tally. Murray has been capitlizing on his #2 ranking this year. Murray has gone deep in every tournament this year with the only exceptions being Miami and IW after his Daddyray layoff. Djokovic has dumped at Monte Carlo, Wimbledon, and now the Olympics. If Djokovic continues to be vulnerable like this its possible for Murray to catch him perhaps without even beating him. I'm with you if he does something like knocking off Djokovic in the US Open final or two other finals. Murray might be close coming into WTF and winning that would put him over for year end number one. If within 500 points (without Olympics being counted), it still probably qualifies, but will just have to see the resume towards the end of the year. Cilic beating Murray in 2 sets at the Real Slam (Cincy) hardly surprising given Murray's recent schedule. Very impressive if he makes US Open final.
 
Gold Medal was worth 750 points in 2012, so Murray less than 500 points down by that tally. Murray has been capitlizing on his #2 ranking this year. Murray has gone deep in every tournament this year with the only exceptions being Miami and IW after his Daddyray layoff. Djokovic has dumped at Monte Carlo, Wimbledon, and now the Olympics. If Djokovic continues to be vulnerable like this its possible for Murray to catch him perhaps without even beating him. I'm with you if he does something like knocking off Djokovic in the US Open final or two other finals. Murray might be close coming into WTF and winning that would put him over for year end number one. If within 500 points (without Olympics being counted), it still probably qualifies, but will just have to see the resume towards the end of the year. Cilic beating Murray in 2 sets at the Real Slam (Cincy) hardly surprising given Murray's recent schedule. Very impressive if he makes US Open final.

750 points was less than they should have awarded for the Olympics, anyway, as although its importance is debated, I don't think it can really be considered less important than an MS1000 event. I'd have thought it should have somewhere between 1,000 and 1,500 points on offer.
 
I think it's the result of judging yesterday's players by today's standards. By today's standards, a Murray with a US Open title might indeed have a claim to have had a better year than any of those of Sampras or Borg, because:

a. Murray would have two Slam titles, and neither Sampras nor Borg ever won three in a year.
b. Murray would have been in all four Slam finals, and neither Sampras nor Borg ever achieved that.
c. Murray would also have the Olympic title.

However, today's standards aren't the universal, timeless standards by which all players from all times must be judged. Things have changed somewhat since the mid-to-late 1990s, when Sampras was around, and they have changed a lot since the late 1970s, when Borg was in his heyday. In particular:

a. There was no tennis at the Olympics when Borg was around, and the event was really not very important when Sampras was around. Barcelona 1992 got a good field but tons of upsets. Atlanta 1996 and Sydney 2000 had rather mediocre fields to begin with.
b. The Australian Open wasn't very important in Borg's day. It was much more important in Sampras's day, but arguably not as important as it is today.
c. The year-end events were very important during both the Borg and the Sampras era.
d. The Masters 1000 series didn't really exist in Borg's era and wasn't compulsory in Sampras's and so wasn't nearly as important as it is today.
e. The regular ATP events were thus slightly more important than they are today.

A Murray with the US Open title would have five titles from nine finals in 2016. He'd have won Wimbledon, the US Open, the Olympics, Rome, and Queen's, and lost the final of the Australian Open, Roland Garros, Madrid, and Cincinnati. A great year, yes. But here's Sampras's 1994:

won the Australian Open and Wimbledon.
won the ATP Tour World Championships, which is now the tour finals. [for the sake of argument, let's call this equivalent to Murray's Olympic title.]
won Indian Wells, Miami, and Rome. [Three MS 1000 events to Murray's one].
won Sydney, Osaka, Tokyo, and Antwerp. [Four regular tour events to Murray's one].
won titles on grass, clay, outdoor hard, and indoor carpet. [There weren't many indoor hard events back then, anyway Murray hasn't won any indoor events yet in 2016].
had a match record of 77-12 [86.52%, Murray with a US Open title would be, assuming he didn't benefit from any withdrawals, 57-7, or 81.43%].
reached 12 finals overall, losing Queen's and the Grand Slam Cup.

I think that's at least comparable to Murray's 2016, even with the US Open title, unless Murray also does something of note during the fall season.

And here's Borg's 1979:
won Roland Garros and Wimbledon.
won 11 other tour titles, including at least a couple of year-end events and precursors to the MS series. The full list is: Richmond WCT, Pepsi Grand Slam, Rotterdam, Monte Carlo, Las Vegas, Bastad, Canada, Palermo, Tokyo Indoor, WCT Challenge Cup, Masters.
won titles on grass, clay, indoor carpet, and outdoor hard.
reached 14 finals overall.
had a match record of 84-6 [93.33%]. Two of those six losses were against McEnroe (three of Murray's seven losses have been against Djokovic). Went 6-0 against Connors, who was 26 for most of 1979, but turned 27 in early September.
So would the fair metric be to compare Murray's May run til the end of the year and throw out the Australian Open? Murray's achievement would be all the more impressive because he's doing it with a true ATG in the field at the peak of his powers. That being said, Murray has to prevail in some final showdowns for Djokovic or this doesn't stick.
 
So would the fair metric be to compare Murray's May run til the end of the year and throw out the Australian Open? Murray's achievement would be all the more impressive because he's doing it with a true ATG in the field at the peak of his powers. That being said, Murray has to prevail in some final showdowns for Djokovic or this doesn't stick.

I don't think there is any way to construct a metric that "levels the playing field" or avoids the problem of different standards. The different eras are in a strong sense incommensurate.

True that Murray had to compete with Djokovic, but note that he has only beaten him in one of his four titles so far this year and Djokovic was exhausted in that one. At Wimbledon and the Olympics, Murray benefitted from someone else doing his dirty work. There's also a problem of comparability in considering the field: apart from the one other great player, I think the field was clearly stronger in 1994 than in 2016, but there's no doubt that, until the last few months of the year when Agassi went on a tear, there was no body around to provide such a challenge to Sampras as Djokovic does to Murray. As for Borg in 1979: McEnroe was only 20 but was not far from his best, while Connors was decent if not on particularly good form (he played much better in 1974, 1976-8, and 1982-3), and the overall field was pretty strong.
 
I don't think there is any way to construct a metric that "levels the playing field" or avoids the problem of different standards. The different eras are in a strong sense incommensurate.

True that Murray had to compete with Djokovic, but note that he has only beaten him in one of his four titles so far this year and Djokovic was exhausted in that one. At Wimbledon and the Olympics, Murray benefitted from someone else doing his dirty work. There's also a problem of comparability in considering the field: apart from the one other great player, I think the field was clearly stronger in 1994 than in 2016, but there's no doubt that, until the last few months of the year when Agassi went on a tear, there was no body around to provide such a challenge to Sampras as Djokovic does to Murray. As for Borg in 1979: McEnroe was only 20 but was not far from his best, while Connors was decent if not on particularly good form (he played much better in 1974, 1976-8, and 1982-3), and the overall field was pretty strong.
I'd agree on the field strength you indicate except for US Open. Based on 1994 Quarterfinalists, US Open was weak. If Delpo makes QF or better at US Open I suspect 2016 US Open will rate a strong field. My rumor mill is flying for late entry for Federer on the basis of no facts except veteran journalist has said to expect unexpected twist for US Open singles:
https://twitter.com/Neil_Harman57/status/767734917618888704
Neil Harman‏@Neil_Harman57
Hearing there may be a fascinating pre-tournament twist in the story of the men's singles at this year's US Open. I'm saying no more.
 
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