Cursed By A Weak Doubles Return

[Cindysphinx]

I'm really puzzled by my doubles return game. I am starting to think I don't know what a good doubles return should even look like.

I played today against two opponents with fairly weak serves. We played two closely contested sets and a tiebreak. I missed at most three service returns (and one was a crazy clay-court bounce off of the tape). This is a dramatic improvement from the days when I could miss 10 in a row. So far, so good.

Trouble is, I'm no longer sure what I should be trying to accomplish with my service return. There are so many philosophies. There's "Just start the point." There's "Take some risk and punish those weak serves with pace or extreme angle." There's "Try to hit deep and follow it in." There's "Keep it low over the net," which seems to contradict the idea that I should be trying to hit deep.

Setting aside times when you are facing a strong server and you have your hands full just getting the serve back, what is the most important thing to achieve with a service return of easy-to-handle serves? I imagine it varies depending on the opponent, but what does it depend on? What should my default position be?

Most of my service returns are conservative ones that bounce at the service line or just behind it. Is this bad? It seems to serve me well when the server does a S&V because the return will be at their feet, but servers only do that in about 10% of my matches (usually the mixed matches).

On the other hand, many of my doubles partners really take a big cut at a weak serve. Sometimes they hit a great shot, but they do miss more often than I do.

I have to admit that I have noticed something about my service return. I tend to hit it and come right to the net. If the next ball is difficult, I usually can volley or half-volley it back to the deep player. If it turns into a volley v. groundstroke battle, I'm fine with it. But sometimes the server will take my short return and steer it down my partner's alley. I used to think that was my partner's error in failing to position, but it seems to happen so often that I am now thinking that the problem is my short-ish service returns.

Is greater depth the answer? If the main way I could achieve greater depth is by hitting higher over the net, is that OK?

 

[spot]

HItting it deep is GREAT- just make sure you are taking it wide enough to keep it away from the net person. The reason for the "keep it low" advice is to avoid poaching. But particularly in women's doubles the net players don't tend to be particularly aggressive at the net- just hitting a deep return is likely your best bet, unless there is some other vulnerability you want to attack

 

[samprasbackhand]

Weak return, I usually smash it at the net person

 

[B-rian]

Weak return, I usually smash it at the net person

Same or blast it down the alley for a free point

 

[Il Mostro]

Weak return, I usually smash it at the net person

Then you'd be dead-meat with our doubles group. A lob over the player at the net is a much higher percentage play and will likely force an error. It forces smart players to switch and will help construct the point. It will wreak havoc on non-savvy doubles players.

 

[raiden031]

I would say any return that doesn't get poached is a good return. If you are getting poached then you need to start throwing in the down the line shots or very low clearance shots. Otherwise just aim cross-court and don't go for too much on it.

 

[ngoster]

Here's a perspective assuming that it's a weak 2nd serve to the forehand and the server won't be following it in.

There are several shots that you can make, but the safest one is something deep cross-court. I prefer to slice the ball as it'll produce a low and skidding bounce forcing the opponent to lift up on the ball.

Another option is, as samprasbackhand suggested, drive it hard and flat at the net person. Aim for the belly button as it'll be harder to adjust for. From experience, hard slices seem to produce many returns into the net but may float on you giving opponents easy sitters.

If the net person gives you ample room driving it down the line another good option. You can either hit it flat or put topspin on it. Try to keep it low over the net as it'll make it more difficult for the net player if they try to return it. Often times, the ball will either get under the racquet or the net person will pop the ball up for an easy put away.

Always try to follow in on the above shot so that you and your partner are both at net putting you in a dominant offensive position...but be prepared for the occasional lobs if you return isn't great.

Also keep in mind to hit what you're confortable hitting. It's easier to say than do but play within your abilities and give up as few unforced error points as possible.

 

[Bagumbawalla]

The best shot for a return in doubles depends on various factors-- your ability to exectue the shots, the style/agressiveness of play of the opponent, your confidence in your partner, and so on.

Here are some shots that work for returns in various situations.

A low, short slice, almost a dropshot or "dink" that forces the server to sprint toward the net and hit up with your partner guarding the net.

A topspin drive angled wide-- that can be an outright winner or set up a put-away shot should the opponent get her racket on the ball.

A topspin shot, not so wide, that dips down at the feet of the server "rushing" the net.

A lob over the head of the netperson that can be an outright winner if momentum is driving the server to the. net.

A deep drive with some, but not too much, topspin to the far corner.

A shot right at the netperson when you get a short ball that sits up in your "comfort zone".

A down the line shot when you have an opposing netperson who poaches a bit too often or does not move to cover the wide ball.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I would say any return that doesn't get poached is a good return. If you are getting poached then you need to start throwing in the down the line shots or very low clearance shots. Otherwise just aim cross-court and don't go for too much on it.

That's kind of the rut that I'm in. I get the returns back, they don't get poached, but they are "neutral" shots rather than attacking shots.

I feel like I need some sort of benchmark to know when to try for more.

Part of what makes this difficult is that I almost always play ad court. When the serve comes to me, we are often one point away from winning the game or losing it. That only increases the pressure to "just get it in." And then I have to consider how I feel when my partner on the deuce side takes a huge cut at the ball and misses. "Oh, Dear God! Now we're down love-40. Why *why* WHY did she have to go for the kill shot?"

I guess what I can't figure is whether it is or is not a good idea to try to win the point (or get the opponent in hot water) off of the return of an attackable serve.

Maybe just go with "play the return conservatively until the opponent gives you a reason to do something else?"

 

[Supernatural_Serve]

The best shot for a return in doubles depends on various factors-- your ability to exectue the shots, the style/agressiveness of play of the opponent, your confidence in your partner, and so on.

Here are some shots that work for returns in various situations.

A low, short slice, almost a dropshot or "dink" that forces the server to sprint toward the net and hit up with your partner guarding the net.

A topspin drive angled wide-- that can be an outright winner or set up a put-away shot should the opponent get her racket on the ball.

A topspin shot, not so wide, that dips down at the feet of the server "rushing" the net.

A lob over the head of the netperson that can be an outright winner if momentum is driving the server to the. net.

A deep drive with some, but not too much, topspin to the far corner.

A shot right at the netperson when you get a short ball that sits up in your "comfort zone".

A down the line shot when you have an opposing netperson who poaches a bit too often or does not move to cover the wide ball.

That pretty much says it all.

A default return for a weak server would be "don't make an error by over hitting" and keep the ball low forcing them to hit up on the ball. Keep doing that until they prove to you that they can deal with a highly consistent cross court ball that stays low.

Then, start pursuing some of the other items on Bag's list

 

[spot]

The main point is that if they give you an attackable ball, you want to attack them in some way. To me by far the best default plan is to hit deep to the backhand. As long as you are winning the points doing that then there is no reason to change- screw mixing it up! Once they adjust and you aren't winning the points often enough that when then its time to start mixing it up.

 

[Nellie]

You cannot allow the server to be too comfortable. If you always return the same shot, they can adjust and come in to wack the ball at you partner.

I like to hit toward the net person at least once a game. By this, I mean that I hit a lob, go down the line, or even hit it right at the net person (I will hit right at a net person who poaches a lot, because that player will often be moving and out of position to take the volley).

You are correct though, that on most returns, you will tend to hit cross court to the server. You can also vary these shots in depth, pace, and angle. Against a better player, you will need to hit short and low, but chances are that even if the server is rushing in to take a volley, they will get to ball around the service line and you partner has a really good chance to get to and return any volley, particularly if you tell him/her before the return that you are going wide, so the alley should be covered. Personally, I like to return deep and wide on the second serves and attack the net, because I find this to be a higher percentage play then wacking the ball.

 

[fuzz nation]

For doubles, I usually treat my return as an approach shot and if I want it deeper in my opponent's end, I'll use an assertive slice. Compared with a topspin shot, it gives me a little extra time to get forward and establish a position at net. The biggest problem with my return is that it's "poachable" if I keep hitting the same shot - my advice for your returning endeavors is to avoid being predictable and remember to test that server's partner early to find out if you can pick on him or her. Think of your return as a set up shot more than a neutral one - use the shot that best helps your cause.

Good list there from our pal Bags - it's important to know your options when it's time to return, but you also have to use what works for you. I don't have a "punishing" return, but I can block a return with a lot of accuracy. If you need to be able to tee off a little more effectively, I'm a big fan of having a hitting partner serve to me from just behind the far service line to improve my timing for that shot.

Along with the lob over the net person, you can also occasionally lob (or sort of moonball) crosscourt to pin a server deep while you close in. Some players have a heck of a time dealing with that shot, but I'm not a fan of hitting a higher routine return to keep the server deep in doubles - too often that can spell a free lunch for the net player. I'm convinced that lobs are about the least frequently practiced shot in the game, but fate of many a doubles team is often determined by their ability to drive opponents off of the net with a good lob. Remember to practice the shot occasionally in a rally setting and as a return.

It's easy for me to hit a low, short crosscourt angle on my return that stays away from the server's partner and because it's low, it often forces the server to come stumbling in and shovel the ball up to me or my partner. Remember that doubles points are rarely played in a level setting - one team is usually hitting down at the other pair. Get on the same page with your partner and keep your shots low to encourage your opponents to cough up that sitter that one of you can put away.

 

[FH2FH]

The best shot for a return in doubles depends on various factors-- your ability to exectue the shots, the style/agressiveness of play of the opponent, your confidence in your partner, and so on.

Here are some shots that work for returns in various situations.

A low, short slice, almost a dropshot or "dink" that forces the server to sprint toward the net and hit up with your partner guarding the net.

A topspin drive angled wide-- that can be an outright winner or set up a put-away shot should the opponent get her racket on the ball.

A topspin shot, not so wide, that dips down at the feet of the server "rushing" the net.

A lob over the head of the netperson that can be an outright winner if momentum is driving the server to the. net.

A deep drive with some, but not too much, topspin to the far corner.

A shot right at the netperson when you get a short ball that sits up in your "comfort zone".

A down the line shot when you have an opposing netperson who poaches a bit too often or does not move to cover the wide ball.

This covers all the options. My advice is use what works. It varies between partners and opponents as Bag said, and maybe even how you're playing that day.

Cindy, what it SOUNDS like you were really saying in your post was "I don't know what to do with a weak serve." Don't get suckered into thinking you need to hammer the ball like WTA players. [what your partner does?] Try some of the above options and just see what's most effective. You might even try a drop shot if you're good at them to mix things up. The good thing about weak serves is that you always have options. When you face some heat/spin/etc, just keeping them in play and well placed [crosscourt and deep/low] is most important.

 

[LuckyR]

Cindy,

Your OP IMO says it all: "Trouble is, I'm no longer sure what I should be trying to accomplish with my service return. There are so many philosophies". This is a very wise question in my experience. Sure there are plenty of options as the other posts have noted. That isn't what I think you are asking, though. It all depends on your goal in doubles.

I found myself at a similar crossroads a few months back. I had formerly chipped and charged >90% of serves, both well struck and weak alike. I was taking advantage of my superior footspeed and first volley skills to pressure servers to try to get breaks. I had fair success but would run into better servers whose pace could turn the possible acceptable angle of chips to a very small margin (to avoid popups and the net).

Something my partner said in a different context made me totally switch my receiving philosophy. He said: "this isn't a tournament, I'm working on my touch volleys today". It dawned on me that these matches didn't matter so I had better use the time and opportunity to work on taking my game to the next level (specifically to deal with the better servers).

I started hitting out on my returns instead of chipping them. My percentage dropped a little at first, but I had many many more outright winners or forced errors and really set my partner free to whale on weak returns of my returns. In addition, servers started taking pace off of their first serves (in order to avoid second serves) which made it even easier for me to hit the returns more sharply. Remember in doubles you have a tremendous advantage as the serving team so sets and matches are won on breaks which are relatively more difficult (than singles) to come by. They are unlikely to fall in your lap, you need to go out and get them. Playing a more consistant but easily handled return will help you enter more points overall but should lead to fewer breaks since many of those points are likely to be lost.

 

[samprasbackhand]

Then you'd be dead-meat with our doubles group. A lob over the player at the net is a much higher percentage play and will likely force an error. It forces smart players to switch and will help construct the point. It will wreak havoc on non-savvy doubles players.

Fair enough, but I'd personally rather make them pay for hitting a weak serve..the net person a lot of the times will back off the net, or the server will have to hit softer 1st serves which can mean more aggressive returns.

 

[Bungalo Bill]

I'm really puzzled by my doubles return game. I am starting to think I don't know what a good doubles return should even look like.

I played today against two opponents with fairly weak serves. We played two closely contested sets and a tiebreak. I missed at most three service returns (and one was a crazy clay-court bounce off of the tape). This is a dramatic improvement from the days when I could miss 10 in a row. So far, so good.

Cindysphinx,

The return of serve is predicated on how well you judge the ball and move your feet and legs to help you time the ball with your weight going into or towards the ball. If you are slow with your feet, your ROS will be off or inconsistent. Even if you are a tad slow in your feet, your return of serve can be compremised.

The ROS is all about: quick ball judgement, footwork, footspeed, efficiency, weight transfer, and alignment more then it is about your stroke.

Trouble is, I'm no longer sure what I should be trying to accomplish with my service return. There are so many philosophies. There's "Just start the point." There's "Take some risk and punish those weak serves with pace or extreme angle." There's "Try to hit deep and follow it in." There's "Keep it low over the net," which seems to contradict the idea that I should be trying to hit deep.

You are trying to accomplish different things:

1. "Just start the point": If you are up against a big server and he/she gives you trouble, you will go to a stroke that will help you get it in. Sometimes, this is all you are doing because the server is that good. Or you may choose to slice the ball from your backhand (provided you have a good slice) because that will give you the best chance to get it in. The first serve may play out differently then the second serve of your opponent.

2. "Take some risk and punish those weak serves with pace or extreme angle": Absolutely, but this will depend if you have a weak server and you can punish those weak serves with a hard angle or with pace! Otherwise, if you can't, a less risky strategy might balance this out. Such as finding out how much risk you can take while "just starting the point". Or if you are up in games or within a game, you may want to take some risk. you may not. That depends on other factors going on.

3. "Try to hit deep and follow it in": This depends on how good of a returner you are and how quickly your opponents can move in. Sometimes rifling the ball back deep can be cutoff in the air by a server moving in or if they play out a formation a certain way. The pace you put on your ball will be sent back toward you if they are decent volleyers and you can wind up on the defense.

4. "Keep it low over the net": Yup, I do this too. However, not all the time. Keeping the ball low is a staple strategy amongst doubles. Sometimes I will try to hit low and deep or low and short. It depends.

So let's review these philosophies:

1. Hit low

2. Hit deep

3. Follow your shot

4. Take some risk and punish if you have the opportunity

5. Get the point started

All of these can be used in different degrees depending on the situation, the skills of your opponent, and your skills.

Let me throw another at you that I used in college. "BOX-TO-BOX". This implies several things:

1. Keep it low

2. Hit it to their feet

3. Hit crosscourt.

4. Follow your ball in in case they have to hit up on it.

5. Get it in and start the point

6. Put a lot of topspin on the ball at times.

Nothing substitutes return of serve practice. Nothing. You must practice the different strategies along with learning how to hit a ROS technically correct. It is a different stroke and sort of combines the volley and the groundstroke. Without practice, or using your matches for practice usually dooms a player to mediocre returns. Everything else improves but their ROS holds them back.

Lack of practice means lack of enjoyment with this stroke.

 

[FloridaAG]

The practice advice is really a good one - My wife's insistence on playing points/games instead of just working on strokes has really improved her return as has practicing ROS in lessons - such that hers is now a weapon

 

[NLBwell]

If the opponent has a weak serve with little pace and you are blocking it back, your return will have less pace than usual (no opponent's pace to work with). You are likely putting a ball with little pace back to the service line which is pretty much a sitter for someone who has stayed at the baseline. Unless your doubles partner is very quick moving into position from the starting point near the T and a good volleyer, she will be in trouble (likely she is not moving quickly, either). You do have to swing more at a very soft serve than a harder serve. Also, if the server is not coming into the net, the game becomes more like singles and you should generally hit it deep. This gives you and your partner a chance to get into a good position at the net.
Once you have the server moving backwards after they serve, you can mix in some dinks and drop shots and drive them crazy, but the basic play is to get the ball deep if they are not coming to the net.

 

[Off The Wall]

The conservative return you are hitting gives your opponents options, too many options. They can step up and drive it, hit short, or lob, all under zero pressure. Return shorter, deeper or wider, all...whichever you're best at.

Also, be aggressive with your ROS footwork. Move forward to set up for lazy serves. The net person will be less apt to poach when you're hitting from inside the court.

 

[ericwong]

If the opponent has a weak serve with little pace and you are blocking it back, your return will have less pace than usual (no opponent's pace to work with). You are likely putting a ball with little pace back to the service line which is pretty much a sitter for someone who has stayed at the baseline. Unless your doubles partner is very quick moving into position from the starting point near the T and a good volleyer, she will be in trouble (likely she is not moving quickly, either). You do have to swing more at a very soft serve than a harder serve. Also, if the server is not coming into the net, the game becomes more like singles and you should generally hit it deep. This gives you and your partner a chance to get into a good position at the net.
Once you have the server moving backwards after they serve, you can mix in some dinks and drop shots and drive them crazy, but the basic play is to get the ball deep if they are not coming to the net.

As for me, I move up quickly to the bounce and slap the ball hard CC or DTL. I did this a couple of times and the net guy just frowned at his server. Alternatively, I will dink the shot close to the sideline of my opponent side ( the server by the way ) if the server is not moving forward quick enough. Setting up a weak return ( by the server )and letting my net player to volley the ball deep into the middle or behind the other net player.


The only problem I have is a big serve down the middle ( T serve to my BH as I am a righty ). If my slice return is not good enough , it sets up a shot for my opponent to volley it away

 

[skiracer55]

I think the key is...

...in something fuzz_nation said above, which is "I usually treat my return as an approach shot ". You say you usually return and follow the return into the net...let's just call it "chip and charge" for a moment. In terms of strategy, "chip and charge" and S&V are very close. I essentially want a three-shot rally, no more, and less if possible. So it looks like this:

- S&V: Forcing first serve, first volley that makes your opponent stretch and run at least three steps, anticipate the passing shot, and knock it off for a winner.

- Chip and charge: Agressive return (while keeping a high percentage) that'll force the return into the sweet spot for your first volley, as above, first volley makes your opponent stretch and move, you and your partner anticipate where the next ball is going and volley/overhead it away for a winner.

So that's the philosophy of what you're trying to do, and, as the other posters have noted, there's a lot of different ways to get there. I also usually play the ad court, my slice backhand return and chip forehand return are one of my strengths, I try to aim them at the feet of the incoming server...or if he's not coming in, chip it to a spot he doesn't like, then I come in, per the above. If, on the other hand, you have a dependable rifle shot return a la Andre Agassi, bang it right at the server and use the resulting damage to gain control of the point.

In one of your posts, I *thought* I heard you say you were fine with coming in behind the return and hitting as many volleys as it takes to make good things happen. Wrong philosophy, IMHO. If you're at the net, you can gain and lose advantage very quickly, whereas in a baseline rally, a not so good shot may only put you back in a neutral, rather than a defensive position. Any time you go to the net, one of your goals has to be to shorten the point. If you get to the net and can get a racket on the ball, you generally have the advantage. If you can direct your first volley and maintain the advantage, you can usually finish the point on the next shot. If you're at the net and have hit two volleys and the ball is still coming back...well, most of the time, the advantages just swung to the other side. Make sense?

So, to back up from that, if you're returning and coming in and hitting a ton of volleys and maybe not winning all the points, ask yourself what's happening. Remember, I said the goal is a maximum three shot rally. If you hit a forcing enough return, you may get a freeby error. If you've having to hit a bunch of volleys (or the other team is lining up on your partner, to no good effect), most likely either your return isn't forcing enough, or you're not doing enough with your first volley. And if that all checks out and you're still doing the Volley Marathon thing...well, do some drills patterned after the above 3-shot sequences where you focus on the skill of finishing the point.

 

[tarheels2323]

The best return in doubles is a dipping topspin ball to the outside corner of the service box, which creates a difficult volley or half volley for the server (the ball will usually be at his feet). This, of course, assumes that your opponents know that being at the net is the best position in doubles. If your opponents are staying back on the serve, hit your return deep into the alley and approach, or kick your shot wide and approach. Make sure you and your partner know how to move accordingly - that return can be hit for a winner if your partner doesn't cover the alley, and as the returner, you should shift with your partner. If the return shot is in the middle of you and your partner (notice I didn't say the middle of the court), you should take it. You should also mix it up by hitting DTL, slice approaches, topspin lobs, or drop shots (if the serve is incredibly weak). Again, this is all assuming your opponents aren't coming in on serve.

 

[Cindysphinx]

So many good responses . . . Too much to think about . . . Feeling dizzy . . .

Your OP IMO says it all: "Trouble is, I'm no longer sure what I should be trying to accomplish with my service return. There are so many philosophies". This is a very wise question in my experience. Sure there are plenty of options as the other posts have noted. That isn't what I think you are asking, though. It all depends on your goal in doubles.

My goal is to get to the net.

Which would suggest I should treat any weak serve as an approach shot. But the thing about approach shots is that you decide to approach before you hit. Sometimes my approach is short -- a shot that would be considered Unacceptable in singles. Yet I've committed. So here I come, following a middling shot to the net.

What is confusing is that the Conventional Wisdom about serving in doubles is that you shouldn't be trying to hit aces but should instead get your first serve in and well-placed, taking off some pace to do it.

So shouldn't returning follow that same philosophy -- just get it in and reasonably well-placed, and don't go for the outright winner. But an approach shot does have to be a certain kind of animal to be successful (deep and with something on it).

Maybe I'll ask it this way: Some people are known for having "excellent return games" and they manage to break a lot. What is the *single* most important thing that those players with excellent return games have in common?

 

[LuckyR]

So many good responses . . . Too much to think about . . . Feeling dizzy . . .



My goal is to get to the net.

Which would suggest I should treat any weak serve as an approach shot. But the thing about approach shots is that you decide to approach before you hit. Sometimes my approach is short -- a shot that would be considered Unacceptable in singles. Yet I've committed. So here I come, following a middling shot to the net.

What is confusing is that the Conventional Wisdom about serving in doubles is that you shouldn't be trying to hit aces but should instead get your first serve in and well-placed, taking off some pace to do it.

So shouldn't returning follow that same philosophy -- just get it in and reasonably well-placed, and don't go for the outright winner. But an approach shot does have to be a certain kind of animal to be successful (deep and with something on it).

Maybe I'll ask it this way: Some people are known for having "excellent return games" and they manage to break a lot. What is the *single* most important thing that those players with excellent return games have in common?

I'll start at the end, first. IMO an excellent returner hits out on their ROS so the server has trouble fielding those returns. Remember (especially in doubles) you are likely to hold your serve, so all you need is one break to win every set (and be labelled a "great returner"). Sure,by hitting out you will lose many return games quickly (since you are hitting low percentage ROSs) but statistically you will get a few return games where the first 2 ROSs will land in and there you are at love-30, in prime position to get in the server's mind (they'll either turn up their first serve pace and fault or turn down the pace and you get an even easier serve to return) and get the break to win the set.


Just getting the ball in play works for the server, who has their netman to back them up, but as you mentioned in your OP, as the returner, you have to deal with their netman, so a "just get it in play" attitude plays against your team's position. You need to return with authority and if you hit it out or in the net, well, you weren't supposed to wih that game, necessarily anyway.

If you are approaching on your ROS, my hat is off to you. Having followed your postings over some time, I am happy to hear you say that. It is a very aggressive approach. As to the nuts and bolts of the shot, as usual it varies. If you are approaching off of a server who stays back and you are hitting to the server, then deeper and more towards th center of the court (without getting poached) is best. Sure you can guarantee to get it by the neman by using a lot of angle, but you are also exposing yourself to even more angle as you are on the move. Also if you take the server out wide your partner will be hanging out in their alley guarding against the DTL shot so you are on your own.

If the server is a S&V, then a dink, sliced chip shot (which would be killed in singles) should catch the server at their shoetops and if you close well you can swing volley the ball through the center of the court for a winner. The nice thing about this shot is it can be performed while in motion towards the net which helps with closing.

 

[Supernatural_Serve]

What is the *single* most important thing that those players with excellent return games have in common?

In doubles, they get a high percentage of returns in without getting them poached by the opposing net player, so that their doubles player at net can be put to use.

Although I don't disagree with your characterization of conventional wisdom, I would put conventional wisdom concerning doubles serving a little bit differently. The goal is to get a high percentage of serves in, eliciting a weak return so that one's net man can attack the return hopefully hitting down on a ball that is being lifted up. Couple that with aggressively getting to the service line, or inside the service box to handle the cross court return of serve again, hopefully hitting down on your opponent while they are lifting their return to the server cross court.

 

[Nellie]

I think that an effective return really varies according to the person. For example, I watch the Williams sister demolish the oppositon in doubles by whacking the ball has hard as possible on every shot. I can't do that because I would miss and give away too many points.

I think you have a good instinct though in that a weak serve allows you to hit more aggressively - essentially as if you were the serving team and taking the net. Normally, I think the return in doubles is defense (don't hit to the net person and give away the point). Thus, hitting low and crosscourt is a pretty agressive shot.

Approaches do not need to be as good in doubles as in singles because you have less court to cover. (in singles, you have 27 feet of baseline to cover, whereas in doubles, you and your partner have 36 feet of baseline, or 18 feet each to cover - so 9 less feet of court width to cover personally). In singles, you can get passed by a pretty poor shot because there is so much court you can't cover on your own.

In my mind, doubles is all about putting yourself to get into position to hit an aggressive volley. If you hit the return short, the server has to hit up and over the net while moving forward, and you will often get a good put away volley if you follow the return into the net. Similarly, I think that a great returner in doubles puts ball in places where the other team cannot hit any aggressive volley, either by hitting the ball low, lobbing, or hitting a good passing shot.

 

[skiracer55]

See what the other posters said...

...and what I said above. You just said " My goal is to get to the net." If you get to the net and get drilled or lobbed over and lose the point most of the time, you haven't gained anything. Skip doubles returns, stop thinking about individual shots, and think of it in terms of these two broad brush strokes:

- Shortening the points (say to a rally where you hit 3 shots) could be considered an ideal, because you hit fewer balls (and have fewer chances to make errors), expend less energy, and, assuming you execute, you win the point with a winner or forced error, which is always psychologically better than having your opponent give you an early Xmas present. So if it's a wonderful thing to shorten points, why doesn't everybody do it? Answer: it requires strokes and strategies that put you in the driver's seat early on and allow you to drive the bus...and the commitment to do so. Pat Rafter once won a match where he hit about a bazillion volleys...and won one more point at the net than he lost. But...he won the match! That's the kind of commitment you need to S&V, chip and charge.

- I don't, right now, have the skills to shorten the points, take over the net, take control of the points, and so forth. What's my obvious strategy. Well, in a word, patience. I need to get a lot of balls back, run after everything, try to use all of the court, try to give my opponent one more chance to make an error.

So what I'm trying to say is that "hit good returns" or "get to the net" are just mini-goals, or maybe they aren't even goals, they're tools to achieve a goal. And the goal, of course, is always to win the last point of the match. So think about what you want to do with your return and how you want to do it in terms of a larger strategy that helps you break your opponent's serve at least one time a set. An individual return point is like a microcosm of a successful service break, which is the key to winning a match. In doubles, I know if I chip and charge, doing whatever I can (hit the return at the opponent's feet, sometimes hit it right at him, sometimes go for more angles, sometimes lob off the service return), hit clean first volleys, follow my first volley, move, split step, and knock off the next ball...well, in the course of three sets, that'll add up to a win. If I don't execute, I lose. But this is the game plan, and I'm sticking to it until I absolutely have to change it because I'm not winning any points off it (which happens). In this case, I'll hit lots of returns in, stay back, and look for my opportunities.

So the moral is, you don't win points with a single shot, you win points by constructing a series of shots into a winning point. And you only win matches when you can consistently construct points for two, or three, or however many sets it takes...

 

[Julieta]

So many good responses . . . Too much to think about . . . Feeling dizzy . . .



My goal is to get to the net.

Which would suggest I should treat any weak serve as an approach shot. But the thing about approach shots is that you decide to approach before you hit. Sometimes my approach is short -- a shot that would be considered Unacceptable in singles. Yet I've committed. So here I come, following a middling shot to the net.

What is confusing is that the Conventional Wisdom about serving in doubles is that you shouldn't be trying to hit aces but should instead get your first serve in and well-placed, taking off some pace to do it.

So shouldn't returning follow that same philosophy -- just get it in and reasonably well-placed, and don't go for the outright winner. But an approach shot does have to be a certain kind of animal to be successful (deep and with something on it).

Maybe I'll ask it this way: Some people are known for having "excellent return games" and they manage to break a lot. What is the *single* most important thing that those players with excellent return games have in common?

The best returners make their returns and make the opposing players uncomfortable (both the net person and the server) versus trying to hit them off the court. It's nothing fancy. You have to practice returns a lot though which most people don't do. Doubles is about discipline and movement IMO.

 

[Cindysphinx]

...and what I said above. You just said " My goal is to get to the net." If you get to the net and get drilled or lobbed over and lose the point most of the time, you haven't gained anything. Skip doubles returns, stop thinking about individual shots, and think of it in terms of these two broad brush strokes:

But see, here's the thing I didn't make clear:

The reason my goal is to get to the net isn't because I just like the view up there. It's because, on balance, I win more points from the net than I win from the baseline because my net play is stronger than my baseline play.

So I think it's fine to have getting to the net as a goal. It's the place where I can be in a position that plays to my strengths. Most of the things that can happen are positive developments for me if I get off the baseline and come to net in doubles. My opponents can give me an easy volley, or they can miss long, wide or into the net. It puts them under pressure and takes them out of their comfort zone, at 3.5 anyway.

A different player might never come to net and still win plenty of points. They would be justified in not coming to net, especially if they boot a lot of volleys.

The question I'm asking might seem weird, but we all face it in different circumstances in tennis. Every time we step up to serve, we have to decide how hard to step on the gas. Are we just going to spin it in, or are we going to try to gain an immediate advantage by taking more risk. The same question has to be answered in the return game, but the issue is more tricky because the server determines what ball we get.

It's fascinating to contrast just the last few posts. Let me paraphrase:

LuckyR believes hitting out and being aggressive in the return game is key because you have to break somehow.

Nellie says you want to get the ball in a play that doesn't allow the opponents to hit an aggressive volley, which is a bit more defensive than what LuckyR does.

SkiRacer thinks you want to construct points, meaning you get lots of returns in and look for opportunities.

SupernaturalSteve seems more in the defensive mode of just getting the ball in play so your partner at net has a chance to get into the point.

In my experience, "just keeping the ball in play" doesn't work so well in doubles. Aggression and risk-taking seems to pay bigger dividends in doubles than singles. I've lost matches waiting around for my doubles opponents to make a mistake and waiting for the UE.

Then again, there seems to be two ways to be aggressive and take risks. One way is with the size of the cut you take at the ball, essentially pressuring the server by hitting the return aggressively. The other is what you decide to do after you've struck the ball (stay back v. come in).

I wonder if one of these two methods of being aggressive is better for players at my level (3.5.). . . .

 

[Bagumbawalla]

The best way to eliminate risk and pressure the opponent is (and I think this is obvious)-- practice.

The more confident you are in your ability to make returns (or any other shot), the less thought and confusion you have in generating a placement/responce, the more "grooved" your shots are-- the more pressure you take off of yourself and put onto the opponents.

Just as an example, before a match my partner and I will practice serves and returns. The server will practice various placements and spins, the returner will loosen up by hitting the various possible returns-- then we reverse positions until we feel we can make any serve and any return.

So, really there is no either/or kind of situation where you have to sacrafice pressure for just getting the ball in play.

If you are the server you can slice down the middle, kick the ball into the body, serve out wide-- these shots may not be winners in singles, but with a person at the net, they can limit the return choices.

Same with returns. You know what kinds of serves you might have used against you, and you know the spins and placements you can chose from for returns.

Practice these things until they are no longer mysterious, risky, iffy, balky shots, and they, instead, become your "percentage" shots that you can rely on to pressure the opponent until you get a short/high/weak/poorly placed response that you or your partner can pop away for a winner.

Having said that, the hardest part, may be finding a partner who has the same goals, work ethic, and time schedule that you do, so you can make the practice work.

 

[Nellie]

Well - I don't think that merely keeping the ball in play in the way to go. Per BB and others above, hitting a low, wide return puts you opponent in a position where they need to take a high risk shot or you will have a winner.

You could try to hit out more, and probably should try at least sometimes. However, it does not appear to be your game and would likely cost you more points than you would gain

 

[Supernatural_Serve]

The question I'm asking might seem weird, but we all face it in different circumstances in tennis. Every time we step up to serve, we have to decide how hard to step on the gas. Are we just going to spin it in, or are we going to try to gain an immediate advantage by taking more risk. The same question has to be answered in the return game, but the issue is more tricky because the server determines what ball we get.

I am taking into consideration that we are talking about 3.5 women. Because at 3.5 consistency wins over risk taking. Odds favor making the opponent hit another ball versus going for an aggressive shot

But, more importantly, deciding how hard we step on the gas serving or returning should factor in:

Returning: A similar list exists for Serving, its actually identical, just replace key words appropriately.

a.) how well their net man is playing and how active they are at net - if they aren't very strong, or inactive, then you should take less risk
b.) how well you are Returning that day - not well, dial it back
c.) how well your opponent is Serving that day - not well, then why risk blowing a point over Returning aggressively, if they can't hurt you then don't let them off the hook with an error
d.) what the point score is. You hardly want to go aggressive Returning a ball especially, a game, set, or match point for your opponent is on the line or when the game score is strongly against you.

Pushing or holding back on the peddle should always at minimum be taking those 4 items into consideration which is really being aware of who is doing what to whom and what is the game/set/match score situation.

 

[Rui]

I think Julieta put it about as well and as succinctly as possible. Nellie touched on it, too. You can hit any shot you want as long as it doesn't give your opponent an easy look. If you indeed follow your returns in, you'll see the benefit of this.

 

[NLBwell]

OK, simply stated:
Hit the ball deep and come in.

Everything else if riffs of of that.

 

[skiracer55]

See what NLBWell says, below...

I am taking into consideration that we are talking about 3.5 women. Because at 3.5 consistency wins over risk taking. Odds favor making the opponent hit another ball versus going for an aggressive shot

But, more importantly, deciding how hard we step on the gas serving or returning should factor in:

Returning: A similar list exists for Serving, its actually identical, just replace key words appropriately.

a.) how well their net man is playing and how active they are at net - if they aren't very strong, or inactive, then you should take less risk
b.) how well you are Returning that day - not well, dial it back
c.) how well your opponent is Serving that day - not well, then why risk blowing a point over Returning aggressively, if they can't hurt you then don't let them off the hook with an error
d.) what the point score is. You hardly want to go aggressive Returning a ball especially, a game, set, or match point for your opponent is on the line or when the game score is strongly against you.

Pushing or holding back on the peddle should always at minimum be taking those 4 items into consideration which is really being aware of who is doing what to whom and what is the game/set/match score situation.

...which is "OK, simply stated:
Hit the ball deep and come in.

Everything else is riffs of of that."

Or what my tagline says, "Watch the ball, hit it hard, and don't think." Maybe that's a little extreme, but it's sort of in line with something Vic Braden said a few years ago. Which is if you listen to the ATP or WTA tour players talk, often their keys to a match are remarkably simple. As in "I need to get a lot of returns back." On the other hand, Braden found that when he talked to 3.0/3.5s about strategy, they had incredibly complex point constructions in their heads. As in "First, I'm going to serve wide in the deuce court to her forehand to draw her out of the court. Then, I'm going to hit an inside out forehand to the backhand corner. Then, if it comes back to my backhand, I'm going to hit a slice down the line to the backhand corner. Then, I'm going to come in and hit a backhand drop volley cross court. Then..."

And what Braden said he was thinking was "Gee...if you can do all that, why are you wasting your time playing Bertha for the Edgewood 3.0 Ladder bragging rights? You ought to be at Wimbledon."

You answered question number 1 the right way, which is "I want to return and come in because the strength of my game is at the net." Great! You know what you have to do to implement that strategy? Answer: Hit a return, preferably in the court, and rush the net. Some returns are better than others, but any return that falls in the court is immeasurably better than one that does not.

What you might do is this: as NLBWell says, just return deep (and safe) and come in. How does that work? If you're winning points doing that, just keep doing it! Never change a winning game, always change a losing game. Don't start changing a successful return just to show your opponents how much variety you have!

What if "return deep and come in" isn't working? At this point, you should have some idea of what will work...and what, additionally, you can do. Per what I said above, if one answer is an inside out forehand chip short to the sideline...but you can't hit that shot...then don't do it!
What you're looking for is what my hitting partner calls "an oil well." Some people love it if you return deep, because they don't have to move much. Other people are totally intimidated by a deep return. Most people don't like to move forward...so a wide angle is a good shot, if you can hit it, against most players.

You're right, in that on an individual return, you sort of have to think about the score, who's serving and how well, how well (or not) you're returning, and so forth. But you know what? Most of the time, if you just focus on hitting a clean return and moving in, things'll work out just fine. I had a recent practice session with my coach, right before a big tournament, where I was cutting and hacking like a Barbarian. Marcos, my coach is a big boy (6' 4", 220 pounds), and spent his junior years working out with David Nalbandian, and the like, down in Argentina. So even when he's dumbing it down a little bit so I can get into points and play a reasonable set or two, he's still pretty imposing.

So after I blasted yet another forehand into the fence, he stopped and said "Stop worrying about what I'm doing, and play the ball. Here's the court, here's the ball, and here's your racket. Nothing changed since I stepped on the court, so start playing the ball, not me, and you'll start winning points." Words to live by. I did, and I ended up having a great practice session and a great tournament...

 

[Supernatural_Serve]

Or what my tagline says, "Watch the ball, hit it hard, and don't think."

I can't go along with that. There is such a thing as overthinking especially when it disrupts relaxation and focus replacing them with uncertainty, doubt, and anxiety.

My first 10 years of tennis were played just focusing on moving my feet and hitting the ball cleanly, trying to exploit backhands, hit the ball hard when I got a good one to attack, and that was about it.

I got tooled left and right by people with no better striking ability, speed, agility, athleticism, endurance, etc, by folks who were simply better, folks who had better strategy, tactics, awareness of the court, its geometry, environmental conditions, "percentage tennis" players. People who understood strengths, weaknesses, who is doing what to whom, etc., and how to construct points, when to attack, approach, or go offensive, versus play neutral or defensive, etc.

The last 20 years, I've learned to be more aware of a lot more things actually taking place on the court and putting that awareness to use.

I do like your point about pounding people until they stop it. If something is working, stick with it, especially against inferior players.

I used to have an instructor who would jump down my throat if I didn't force my opponent to prove to me that day, on that court, that they can volley when they chose to go offensive and come in. His view was give him some tough balls and make him prove he has a net game before lobbing or trying to pass him. And if he can't, then keep pounding him every time he comes to the net until he stops it. Make him peel the ball off his chest, deal with dippers at his feet, and top spin too.

 

[skiracer55]

Believe it or not...

I can't go along with that. There is such a thing as overthinking especially when it disrupts relaxation and focus replacing them with uncertainty, doubt, and anxiety.

My first 10 years of tennis were played just focusing on moving my feet and hitting the ball cleanly, trying to exploit backhands, hit the ball hard when I got a good one to attack, and that was about it.

I got tooled left and right by people with no better striking ability, speed, agility, athleticism, endurance, etc, by folks who were simply better, folks who had better strategy, tactics, awareness of the court, its geometry, environmental conditions, "percentage tennis" players. People who understood strengths, weaknesses, who is doing what to whom, etc., and how to construct points, when to attack, approach, or go offensive, versus play neutral or defensive, etc.

The last 20 years, I've learned to be more aware of a lot more things actually taking place on the court and putting that awareness to use.

I do like your point about pounding people until they stop it. If something is working, stick with it, especially against inferior players.

I used to have an instructor who would jump down my throat if I didn't force my opponent to prove to me that day, on that court, that they can volley when they chose to go offensive and come in. His view was give him some tough balls and make him prove he has a net game before lobbing or trying to pass him. And if he can't, then keep pounding him every time he comes to the net until he stops it. Make him peel the ball off his chest, deal with dippers at his feet, and top spin too.

...I don't think we're actually disagreeing. I always have an overall strategy for a match, and it's never "Duh...I think I'll just go out and hit balls until something happens." As in, "I need to beat this guy to the net, so I'm going to start off by serving and volleying and chipping and charging." Or, on a given point, it might be "Okay, I've been setting him up with heavy kick serves to the backhand, it's 30-30, time for a wide slice, come in and look for the backhand volley." But once the point starts, it just, as you say, focus and execute.

Or, as one of my coaches told me, "Don't think your way through a match, play your way through a match." In ski racing, during my course inspection, I gotta pay attention to the gate pattern and terrain, decide on my tactics, put it all into a little video in my head, and rehearse the video. Once I'm on course, however, that all has to take over subconsciously, because by then it's just look ahead and go all out...