Damaging loss for Djokovic

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
These events matter nothing for these guys except getting into some form for the Majors. The stakes at the Masters can be higher if they meet each other, but the Big 3 haven't done that often recently.

Underestimate Djokovic at your own peril, people. It was stupid to do that when he was awful, it's even worse now when he is the best in the world.
I think it is equally stupid to overestimate OR underestimate players. I think fans are currently overestimating the level of Djokovic. I don't see him nearly as invincible now as he was in 2011 and during his 4 slam run.
 

TheAssassin

Legend
I think it is equally stupid to overestimate OR underestimate players. I think fans are currently overestimating the level of Djokovic. I don't see him nearly as invincible now as he was in 2011 and during his 4 slam run.
Obviously, he was playing better and winning more back then. We all know that. Nowadays though there aren't many players who can take advantage of his average days, which are still decent. So he is still the favorite at most events for now.
 

Sephiroth

Professional
He lost. You can analyze it all you want. Medvedev was better when it mattered. Djokovic is getting to the point where he will no longer be able to dominate. Medvedev displayed a classic pattern of how to beat him.
Bombing second serves isn't a pattern that's a YOLO play because he had literally no other play apart from going for broke. It's actually a compliment to Djokovic that someone has to play no ****s given tennis to win.

Those second serve bombs could've easily turned into DFs and we'd all be discussing how much of an incompetent mug Mad Lad is.
 

BorgTheGOAT

Professional
This
I sincerely doubt either one of them is counting Masters at this point, or else Novak wouldn't have skipped Montreal and Rafa wouldn't have skipped Cincy.
Nobody cares or ever cared about the Masters record. The Big three are skipping them and Djokovic/Nadal never really got enthusiastic when surpassing the other. At some points I didn’t even know whether Nadal or Djokovic were holding the record at the moment. Masters are second tier tournaments and completely pale compared to slams.
 

BorgTheGOAT

Professional
Djokovic at slams is a completely different animal. The next gen players have already beaten the big three at masters before only to get destroyed by them at slams.
 

Pantera

Banned
Nadal was visibly nervous during the AO 2019 final. Nadal's mental cracks from past matches against Djoker also contributed to the loss of the second set in the Rome final. Nadal has Djoker in his head, whether you like it or not. The bitter defeats with the ATG rival cannot be forgotten.
What lol? Nadal bagelled and breadsticked his greatest rival when masters 1000 record up for grabs...is 9-6 ahead in majors. What mental cracks are there outside australia? Lmao.
 
When did Nadal in 2011 get himself into a winning position but then choke?
You can underperform during an entire match because the opponent is too much in your head, you don’t have to choke from a winning position for that.
I think both of you are looking at this wrong. It is not a mental thing, but a tactical one.

Rafa was not in Feds head early on (maybe for a match here and there), his game was a bad matchup for Fed. That changed when Fed improved his backhand wing. The matchup now favored Fed more.

For Rafa v Djoker, same can be said. Djoker has always been defensive, but Rafa and Fed could still run around and hit "one more" offensive shot. Nowadays, neither Fed nor Rafa are as quick as they used to be, so hitting "one more" shot is more difficult.

I see it as a matchup issue, not a mental thing.
 

jackdaw

Rookie
Like I have constantly said, Nadal only needs to worry about Djokovic, but Djok needs to worry about all the new guys.

Nadal beats Medvedev 6-3 6-0
Medvedev beats Djokovic.

NONE of the new guys can beat Nadal - NONE of them.
All the new guys can beat Djokovic.

Nadal just needs one of them to do him a favour and then he meets the same lad in the final and blows him away 6-1 6-0 6-0 .

I don't care that Djokovic has won 4/5 last slams, Nadal is the dominant figure in tennis right now, and will be for years and years - perhaps decades.
And he gets stronger and stronger and STRONGER.

The game is a total parody at this stage.

Nadal will finish on approx. 30 slams.
 

Imperator

Professional
I think both of you are looking at this wrong. It is not a mental thing, but a tactical one.

Rafa was not in Feds head early on (maybe for a match here and there), his game was a bad matchup for Fed. That changed when Fed improved his backhand wing. The matchup now favored Fed more.

For Rafa v Djoker, same can be said. Djoker has always been defensive, but Rafa and Fed could still run around and hit "one more" offensive shot. Nowadays, neither Fed nor Rafa are as quick as they used to be, so hitting "one more" shot is more difficult.

I see it as a matchup issue, not a mental thing.
We're talking about 2011 Rafa, he was only 25. We can't say he was already unable to run around like crazy, given what he did a year later at 2012 AO, where he was 26.
 
Like I have constantly said, Nadal only needs to worry about Djokovic, but Djok needs to worry about all the new guys.

Nadal beats Medvedev 6-3 6-0
Medvedev beats Djokovic.

NONE of the new guys can beat Nadal - NONE of them.
All the new guys can beat Djokovic.

Nadal just needs one of them to do him a favour and then he meets the same lad in the final and blows him away 6-1 6-0 6-0 .

I don't care that Djokovic has won 4/5 last slams, Nadal is the dominant figure in tennis right now, and will be for years and years - perhaps decades.
And he gets stronger and stronger and STRONGER.

The game is a total parody at this stage.

Nadal will finish on approx. 30 slams.
While you are correct for the most part... Rafa lost to Tsits... on clay... This year.
 

Pantera

Banned
You can underperform during an entire match because the opponent is too much in your head, you don’t have to choke from a winning position for that.
So are you saying nadal is a better player and should have won those matches?

My own view is Nadal got complacent after 2010, spent too much time on his book, and got caught with his pants down by Djokovic and it took until 2012 for him to get back to where he needed to be.
 

UnderratedSlam

Hall of Fame
While Medvedev played hit and hope tennis and will never do that sort of thing again (130mph 2nd serves is desperation) for Djokovic being 2 behind Nadal at Masters 1000 level is going to grate with him, as is the fact Nadal bagelled Medvedev a week ago.

Psychology plays a huge part in sport and Nadal is 2-1 v Djokovic in new york and add to that recent events should the almost inevitable Nadal Djokovic final happen in 3 weeks time (only injury stops it as no player is remotely close to either on hard courts) then Nadal has the edge mentally, also albeit on clay not hard but the last meeting was a bagel and breadstick for Nadal.

Missed opportunitu for Djokovic as had he won cincinatti he would have been clear favourite for USO. Now he probably will be wary of Nadal and historically when Djokovic has doubts he tends to lose to nadal.
So Djokovic will fear NADAL because Djokovic lost to MEDVEDEV? And the 2-1 that Nadal has (from aeons earlier in a different era of tennis 2010-2013) is somehow a useful measuring stick despite the fact Novak dominates Rafa for half a decade on all surfaces except clay?

Is that what you're saying here?

Quite a bizarre line of reasoning. There is no logic there.
 

Pantera

Banned
So Djokovic will fear NADAL because Djokovic lost to MEDVEDEV? And the 2-1 that Nadal has (from aeons earlier in a different era of tennis 2010-2013) is somehow a useful measuring stick despite the fact Novak dominates Rafa for half a decade on all surfaces except clay?

Is that what you're saying here?

Quite a bizarre line of reasoning. There is no logic there.
Well when was last time Djokovic beat Nadal on north American hardcourts then?
 

Genious at Work

Hall of Fame
While Medvedev played hit and hope tennis and will never do that sort of thing again (130mph 2nd serves is desperation) for Djokovic being 2 behind Nadal at Masters 1000 level is going to grate with him, as is the fact Nadal bagelled Medvedev a week ago.

Psychology plays a huge part in sport and Nadal is 2-1 v Djokovic in new york and add to that recent events should the almost inevitable Nadal Djokovic final happen in 3 weeks time (only injury stops it as no player is remotely close to either on hard courts) then Nadal has the edge mentally, also albeit on clay not hard but the last meeting was a bagel and breadstick for Nadal.

Missed opportunitu for Djokovic as had he won cincinatti he would have been clear favourite for USO. Now he probably will be wary of Nadal and historically when Djokovic has doubts he tends to lose to nadal.
If Likes were working I still wouldn't give you one.
 

Pantera

Banned
To be honest, Djokovic doesn't seem to be giving a damn to non-GS titles.
I think he wants to win every m1000 he plays..but im not sure when he loses the pain of defeat lasts much longer than an hour or so. Same with Nadal and Federer I suspect. I guess they may have certain events outside the majors they have a big affinity for though.
 

Imperator

Professional
So are you saying nadal is a better player and should have won those matches?

My own view is Nadal got complacent after 2010, spent too much time on his book, and got caught with his pants down by Djokovic and it took until 2012 for him to get back to where he needed to be.
That’s not what I said.
 

Shaj

New User
To be honest, Djokovic doesn't seem to be giving a damn to non-GS titles.

Its like he gives a dam till second set. And if it goes beyond he doesn't gives a damn.


But lets be rational here. A Best of three format just gets over in the blink of an eye. A player catches heat and the match is over. I mean what are the odds that Medvedev would have hit 120 + second Serves continuously over 3 Sets?
 

Pantera

Banned
Its like he gives a dam till second set. And if it goes beyond he doesn't gives a damn.


But lets be rational here. A Best of three format just gets over in the blink of an eye. A player catches heat and the match is over. I mean what are the odds that Medvedev would have hit 120 + second Serves continuously over 3 Sets?
None..he would have lost next two sets 6-2, 6-1. He was gassed.
 

ChaelAZ

Legend
It adds some questions about Djo's supposed dominance moving forward, but it wasn't THAT big of a deal.
 

UnderratedSlam

Hall of Fame
Well when was last time Djokovic beat Nadal on north American hardcourts then?
Since losing to Rafa in USO13, Novak beat him ALL EIGHT TIMES on HC, including two on American soil.

And he beat Rafa FOUR times on clay during this period, while losing 4.

To sum up:

Since 2013 USO:

Djokovic - Rafa

8-0 on HC (in America, Asia, Europe and Jupiter)
4-4 on clay
1-0 grass

13-4 overall.

I believe that settles that...
 

Pantera

Banned
Since losing to Rafa in USO13, Novak beat him ALL EIGHT TIMES on HC, including two on American soil.

And he beat Rafa FOUR times on clay during this period, while losing 4.

To sum up:

Since 2013 USO:

Djokovic - Rafa

8-0 on HC (in America, Asia, Europe and Jupiter)
4-4 on clay
1-0 grass

13-4 overall.

I believe that settles that...
You haven't answered the question...I asked when was the last time they played on North American HC? Anything over a year ago is utterly irrelevant tbh.
 

UnderratedSlam

Hall of Fame
You haven't answered the question...I asked when was the last time they played on North American HC? Anything over a year ago is utterly irrelevant tbh.
Anything before 2018 is irrelevant...

... yet you focus on 2010-2013!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Call. Me. Guffaw.

Btw, HC is HC, America isn't planet Neptune.

You have zero arguments. Quit while you're still... well not ahead, but before you're light-years behind.
 

Pantera

Banned
Anything before 2018 is irrelevant...

... yet you focus on 2010-2013!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Call. Me. Guffaw.

Btw, HC is HC, America isn't planet Neptune.

You have zero arguments. Quit while you're still... well not ahead, but before you're light-years behind.
Dude...I have already defeated your argument lol. Fact you don't know the difference between North American Hard courts and Australasian hard courts suggests to me you have limited knowledge of tennis.

You cannot have it both ways...if you want to rely on hard court matches from Beijing 2013 on wards...then you have to include Nadal 2-1 Djokovic at USO..it is that simple. Quit being bitter you got owned. lmao.
 

N01E

Semi-Pro
Dude...I have already defeated your argument lol. Fact you don't know the difference between North American Hard courts and Australasian hard courts suggests to me you have limited knowledge of tennis.

You cannot have it both ways...if you want to rely on hard court matches from Beijing 2013 on wards...then you have to include Nadal 2-1 Djokovic at USO..it is that simple. Quit being bitter you got owned. lmao.
 
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jackdaw

Rookie
So Djokovic will fear NADAL because Djokovic lost to MEDVEDEV? And the 2-1 that Nadal has (from aeons earlier in a different era of tennis 2010-2013) is somehow a useful measuring stick despite the fact Novak dominates Rafa for half a decade on all surfaces except clay?

Is that what you're saying here?

Quite a bizarre line of reasoning. There is no logic there.
The point is Nadal won't even need to worry about facing Nole, some pleb will do him a favour and then he will just beat them - or some other pleb that beats pleb #1 6-1 6-0 6-0 in 52 minutes in the USO final.
 

clayqueen

G.O.A.T.
This

Nobody cares or ever cared about the Masters record. The Big three are skipping them and Djokovic/Nadal never really got enthusiastic when surpassing the other. At some points I didn’t even know whether Nadal or Djokovic were holding the record at the moment. Masters are second tier tournaments and completely pale compared to slams.
The reason the Masters record is not talked about a lot is because Fedfan commentators have ignored it as Fedr does not hold the record. The GOAT debate is centered around Fedr's achievements.
 
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