DATA: progression of a practice session --> hitting the wall

wallymann

Rookie
its pretty clear when my speed/movement dips and i've hit the wall --> i'm good for ~2hrs of ACTUAL SINGLES HITTING!!! (not hitting against a wall)

PpdeSjG.png
 
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wallymann

Rookie
Your heart rate is crazy for just playing tennis. You must be horrible cardio shape.

i'm actually in decent cardio shape...resting HR is 45-50bpm and BP is 105/65...i've always tended to run high HR under exertion my whole life...thats my natural range.

lifelong competitive cyclist...i'm happy to lace up my cleats and do a competitive 100 mile ride with you any time!

5DhISjt.png
 
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tennis3

Hall of Fame
i'm actually in decent cardio shape...resting HR is 45-50bpm and BP is 105/65...i've always tended to run high HR under exertion my whole life...thats my natural range.

lifelong competitive cyclist...i'm happy to lace up my cleats and do a competitive 100 mile ride with you any time!
Interesting. I'd think tennis would be very easy for you then. Hard to imagine you're getting so tired you "hit the wall" after playing for 2 hours. You must run like crazy and not take any breaks? Play really fast so you have no recovery time? Are you playing cardio tennis?

I'll do the 100 mile ride so long as we run at least 10 miles after that. Winner take all.
 

GAS

Professional
i'm actually in decent cardio shape...resting HR is 45-50bpm and BP is 105/65...i've always tended to run high HR under exertion my whole life...thats my natural range.

lifelong competitive cyclist...i'm happy to lace up my cleats and do a competitive 100 mile ride with you any time!

5DhISjt.png

Post an updated picture, as nobody rides 23s anymore. Or caliper brakes.
 

Purestriker

Legend
i'm actually in decent cardio shape...resting HR is 45-50bpm and BP is 105/65...i've always tended to run high HR under exertion my whole life...thats my natural range.

lifelong competitive cyclist...i'm happy to lace up my cleats and do a competitive 100 mile ride with you any time!

5DhISjt.png
Gotta close that mouth, or you are going to end up with a mouth full of bugs!
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame
My problem as I push Into my 50s is that my Achilles/calves/hammies start to feel like they are about to rupture when I hit the 2h mark.
Do you stretch (daily)? Especially after workouts?

Before workouts you probably just need a light warm up. Doesn't really matter. Just something to get loosened up. Once loosened up, you might want to do some stretching then as well. If you make it part of a daily routine, you should be able to be flexible enough to keep that achillies/calves/hammies chain from getting tight while playing. Just don't start stretching too aggressively in the beginning. Let your body tell you how aggressive you should be. It's not a race. You don't need to try and be flexible tomorrow. It will take a good 6 months or more.

I'd say if you don't stretch, at your age (which is also my age), you're just asking to get injured.
 

Injured Again

Hall of Fame
@wallymann Lifetime cyclist here. I was still a 350-watt-for-an-hour guy at age 40, which sounds great but not when considering I was 85 kilos!

I found that when I cycled a lot, much more of the time was at steady state efforts. When I trained short and hard, my efforts were very stochastic, and those were the times when I felt tireless playing tennis.

Since I no longer do the marathon single day cycling events like I used to, I now almost use cycling exclusively as training for tennis. I’ll do many 3-5 minute efforts at MLSS + 5%, and about the same number of 10-20 second efforts at 150% MLSS. This builds up my anaerobic fitness and really mimics the type of bursty efforts in tennis.

Now at age 62 and with a new knee, I intend to get back to being able to play two-plus hours with minimal athletic performance loss like I was able to a few years ago. My max heart rate is now only about 165 but even going until I’m gasping, I find it hard to get my heart rate to even 140 on court. A two hour session on the bike will have an average heart rate of about 150.
 

wallymann

Rookie
Interesting. I'd think tennis would be very easy for you then. Hard to imagine you're getting so tired you "hit the wall" after playing for 2 hours. You must run like crazy and not take any breaks? Play really fast so you have no recovery time? Are you playing cardio tennis?

I'll do the 100 mile ride so long as we run at least 10 miles after that. Winner take all.

cycling is generally steady-state aerobic, doesnt develop upper-body strength, and is non-weight bearing. pretty much the exact opposite of tennis.
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
i'm actually in decent cardio shape...resting HR is 45-50bpm and BP is 105/65...i've always tended to run high HR under exertion my whole life...thats my natural range.

lifelong competitive cyclist...i'm happy to lace up my cleats and do a competitive 100 mile ride with you any time!

5DhISjt.png
That's great but what's your Heart Recovery Rate?

Very easy to estimate (there are threads), but basically run you exercise bike at max HR, measure it, stop and measure it again after 1 min.

An excellent one is over 30 beats, I bet you have over 50 beats.
Mine goes down by over 50 beats, but my max heart rate doesn't go too high (never near 160, more like 125 ) and my resting HR is 52, while the latest BP is 133/84. Also older than you.

I am kinda puzzled that a competive cyclist " tended to run high HR under exertion your whole life...be it your natural range", as I've only done about 1 year of competitive cyclism and my resting HR after exercise was bellow 60 (basically very high heart recovery rate at 16 years old) and also historically speaking the lowest I’ve heard of for a cyclist was Miguel Indurain, who recorded a RHR of 28. I think the world record was recorded by a runner named Daniel Green, and his RHR was 26.

Truth be told I did ride my bike for longer, except not competitively and also build my endurance in other sports such as handball and basketball where I was working hard. Now I only play tennis, sport wise.
 
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Fintft

G.O.A.T.
@wallymann Lifetime cyclist here. I was still a 350-watt-for-an-hour guy at age 40, which sounds great but not when considering I was 85 kilos!

I found that when I cycled a lot, much more of the time was at steady state efforts. When I trained short and hard, my efforts were very stochastic, and those were the times when I felt tireless playing tennis.

Since I no longer do the marathon single day cycling events like I used to, I now almost use cycling exclusively as training for tennis. I’ll do many 3-5 minute efforts at MLSS + 5%, and about the same number of 10-20 second efforts at 150% MLSS. This builds up my anaerobic fitness and really mimics the type of bursty efforts in tennis.

Now at age 62 and with a new knee, I intend to get back to being able to play two-plus hours with minimal athletic performance loss like I was able to a few years ago. My max heart rate is now only about 165 but even going until I’m gasping, I find it hard to get my heart rate to even 140 on court. A two hour session on the bike will have an average heart rate of about 150.
It's ok to have a low max heart rate, very common for cyclists and beneficial, as per post #13 above.
 

wallymann

Rookie
That's great but what's your Heart Recovery Rate?

Very easy to estimate (there are threads), but basically run you exercise bike at max HR, measure it, stop and measure it again after 1 min.

An excellent one is over 30 beats, I bet you have over 50 beats.
Mine goes down by over 50 beats, but my max heart rate doesn't go too high (never near 160, more like 125 ) and my resting HR is 52, while the latest BP is 133/84. Also older than you.

I am kinda puzzled that a competive cyclist " tended to run high HR under exertion your whole life...be it your natural range", as I've only done about 1 year of competitive cyclism and my resting HR after exercise was bellow 60 (basically very high heart recovery rate at 16 years old) and also historically speaking the lowest I’ve heard of for a cyclist was Miguel Indurain, who recorded a RHR of 28. I think the world record was recorded by a runner named Daniel Green, and his RHR was 26.

Truth be told I did ride my bike for longer, except not competitively and also build my endurance in other sports such as handball and basketball where I was working hard. Now I only play tennis, sport wise.
Not a doc, cant explain it. When in great shape (for me) my resting HR regularly got into the low mid 40s. And I'm FAR from a great cyclists. My HR is very responsive...with exertion my HR responds immediately with little lag, when I stop it drops like a stone also with little lag.
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
Not a doc, cant explain it. When in great shape (for me) my resting HR regularly got into the low mid 40s. And I'm FAR from a great cyclists. My HR is very responsive...with exertion my HR responds immediately with little lag, when I stop it drops like a stone also with little lag.
Nice, so what is your HRR? 60?

As for the doctors explaining low max HR, here is some quote: "Endurance exercise causes the left ventricle to enlarge. During endurance workouts, more blood and oxygen are required to the peripheral tissues of the arms and legs in highly trained athletes’ bodies. A larger heart results in higher cardiac output, which also allows it to beat more slowly, as more blood is pumped out with each beat. Some doctors are not used to seeing endurance athletes, so they may get shocked at low resting heart rates. I heard a story recently about how Davis Phinney was injured when he was racing in the 80’s and when he went to the hospital the doctors thought he was about to die because his resting heart rate was in the 30’s. "
 

Injured Again

Hall of Fame
It's ok to have a low max heart rate, very common for cyclists and beneficial, as per post #13 above.

The max heart rate I’ve ever seen was 194, when I was in my 20’s and doing a VO2 test on a treadmill. That’s typical of people with my mesomorphic body structure. At around that time, I was training with a guy who would eventually do a sub-10 hour Ironman who was an ectomorph and his max heart rate was something like 218, and he could sustain upper 190’s for an hour.

Because I had an interest in exercise physiology, because I have a slight mitral valve prolapse at rest that disappears under exertion, and because for a few years I worked at a lab developing Doppler ultrasound equipment, I ended up getting a full cardiac imaging study done for free, which showed that, typical of mesomorphs, I had much higher than typical stroke volume To offset my lower hear rate capability. And even of that group, mine stroke volume was on the higher end, and I had larger than typical lung capacity too.

I was told that if I could manage to drop about 30 pounds, I might have a chance at competing as a national level athlete. Drop 30 pounds? I was 185 pounds and 14% body fat. I was not going to emaciate myself to become a potential low level cat 1 cyclist. Instead, I became the recreational cyclist guy that everyone liked to draft behind because I wore a 44/45 jacket size, who would pull everyone to the base of the hills to watch them then just ride off into the distance when the road tilted up.

I fortunately never trained hard enough to develop hear rhythm abnormalities. But I have heard through the grapevine that some significant percentage of the really fast guys I knew 30 years ago have arrhythmias.
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
The max heart rate I’ve ever seen was 194, when I was in my 20’s and doing a VO2 test on a treadmill. That’s typical of people with my mesomorphic body structure. At around that time, I was training with a guy who would eventually do a sub-10 hour Ironman who was an ectomorph and his max heart rate was something like 218, and he could sustain upper 190’s for an hour.

Because I had an interest in exercise physiology, because I have a slight mitral valve prolapse at rest that disappears under exertion, and because for a few years I worked at a lab developing Doppler ultrasound equipment, I ended up getting a full cardiac imaging study done for free, which showed that, typical of mesomorphs, I had much higher than typical stroke volume To offset my lower hear rate capability. And even of that group, mine stroke volume was on the higher end, and I had larger than typical lung capacity too.

I was told that if I could manage to drop about 30 pounds, I might have a chance at competing as a national level athlete. Drop 30 pounds? I was 185 pounds and 14% body fat. I was not going to emaciate myself to become a potential low level cat 1 cyclist. Instead, I became the recreational cyclist guy that everyone liked to draft behind because I wore a 44/45 jacket size, who would pull everyone to the base of the hills to watch them then just ride off into the distance when the road tilted up.

I fortunately never trained hard enough to develop hear rhythm abnormalities. But I have heard through the grapevine that some significant percentage of the really fast guys I knew 30 years ago have arrhythmias.
I also have some arrhythmia.
 

wallymann

Rookie
The max heart rate I’ve ever seen was 194, when I was in my 20’s and doing a VO2 test on a treadmill. That’s typical of people with my mesomorphic body structure. At around that time, I was training with a guy who would eventually do a sub-10 hour Ironman who was an ectomorph and his max heart rate was something like 218, and he could sustain upper 190’s for an hour.

Because I had an interest in exercise physiology, because I have a slight mitral valve prolapse at rest that disappears under exertion, and because for a few years I worked at a lab developing Doppler ultrasound equipment, I ended up getting a full cardiac imaging study done for free, which showed that, typical of mesomorphs, I had much higher than typical stroke volume To offset my lower hear rate capability. And even of that group, mine stroke volume was on the higher end, and I had larger than typical lung capacity too.

I was told that if I could manage to drop about 30 pounds, I might have a chance at competing as a national level athlete. Drop 30 pounds? I was 185 pounds and 14% body fat. I was not going to emaciate myself to become a potential low level cat 1 cyclist. Instead, I became the recreational cyclist guy that everyone liked to draft behind because I wore a 44/45 jacket size, who would pull everyone to the base of the hills to watch them then just ride off into the distance when the road tilted up.

I fortunately never trained hard enough to develop hear rhythm abnormalities. But I have heard through the grapevine that some significant percentage of the really fast guys I knew 30 years ago have arrhythmias.
i'm in my mid 50s and am in that group. not the "really fast guys" but the lifelong cyclists that have developed arrhythimas despite (actually, its "because of") a lifelong commitment to excessive endurance training. it's called colloquially "athletes heart syndrome"
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame
he could sustain upper 190’s for an hour.
That's crazy. I've never heard of anything like that.

I used to train at 170-175 bpm maybe twice or 3 times a month and sustain that for around 30 to 40 minutes (I'd generally be running around 5:30 pace). That was very hard. One of my least favorite training days. That's when my race pace would have been around 5 minute miles for a 5K.

I could barely hit 190 bpm when I did track days. And I certainly wasn't sustaining that for an hour.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
Interesting. I'd think tennis would be very easy for you then. Hard to imagine you're getting so tired you "hit the wall" after playing for 2 hours. You must run like crazy and not take any breaks? Play really fast so you have no recovery time? Are you playing cardio tennis?

I'll do the 100 mile ride so long as we run at least 10 miles after that. Winner take all.
cycling and running fitness is completely different from tennis fitness. tennis movement recruits different muscles. when do you ever move laterally, diagonally or backwards on a bike or when running?
 

wallymann

Rookie
That's crazy. I've never heard of anything like that.
when i ride/train with the really fast dudes...i LIVE above 180bpm just to hang with them and grovel in the draft...they're riding 30bpm lower and smiling on the front.

when it comes to endurance sports, ya gotta pick your parents carefully!
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
i'm in my mid 50s and am in that group. not the "really fast guys" but the lifelong cyclists that have developed arrhythimas despite (actually, its "because of") a lifelong commitment to excessive endurance training. it's called colloquially "athletes heart syndrome"
Whoa, your HR numbers look awfully ( extremely) high given your age. Normal max should be close to 165 bpm and target range is about 85-140 bpm. Energetic / vigorous singles tennis players will keep their HR in their target zone for most of a match. They are using their aerobic system as well as 2 anaerobic systems for their energy needs during a match.

Curious, what is your resting HR and your average BP? Do you train with interval training in addition to steady state cardio? Contrary to what some believe, tennis usually requires both types on conditioning for tennis endurance.

 

wallymann

Rookie
Whoa, your HR numbers look awfully ( extremely) high given your age. Normal max should be close to 165 bpm and target range is about 85-140 bpm....Curious, what is your resting HR and your average BP?

yep, my exertion HR number have always been high. those "normal" ranges have never applied to me -- bell curves and all, yes?

current resting HR ~50 and BP ~105/65 --> generally considered quite fit for someone well into middle age. get a physical ever year, and every time the nurses do a double take when seeing my vitals --> i always tell them thats normal for me.
 
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Injured Again

Hall of Fame
That's crazy. I've never heard of anything like that.

I used to train at 170-175 bpm maybe twice or 3 times a month and sustain that for around 30 to 40 minutes (I'd generally be running around 5:30 pace). That was very hard. One of my least favorite training days. That's when my race pace would have been around 5 minute miles for a 5K.

I could barely hit 190 bpm when I did track days. And I certainly wasn't sustaining that for an hour.

Literally this guy was a string bean, and like many people with his build, they just seem to have incredibly high peak heart rates. I worked with a woman who was probably 5’2” and 90 pounds, and I lent her my Polar hear rate monitor because I wasn’t using it any more. We went for a lunchtime run and she was not even breathing hard at 180 heart rate. She later told me she trained hard at just over 200 beats per minute.

At my best, I could go 178 beats per minute for a 10k run. The string bean guy and I had almost the same heart rates when we were running. It almost became a game that in the last mile, he’d gradually up the pace until he got to 180 beats per minute, at which point he knew I was beyond my limit. He’d look over, grin, and just take off. He never did train running hard, which is why he’d run with me. He said he was after running economy and not outright speed. He eventually got to be able to run 7 minute mile pace at a heart rate of about 150. That’s just amazing to me.
 

Injured Again

Hall of Fame
i'm in my mid 50s and am in that group. not the "really fast guys" but the lifelong cyclists that have developed arrhythimas despite (actually, its "because of") a lifelong commitment to excessive endurance training. it's called colloquially "athletes heart syndrome"

So sorry to hear that. The guys I know that have developed arrythmia have had to quit cycling altogether, and one has an implant to give his hear a jolt if the rhythm gets so bad he’s at risk of dying. I hope you can continue to manage your symptoms well!
 

tennis3

Hall of Fame
its pretty clear when my speed/movement dips and i've hit the wall --> i'm good for ~2hrs of ACTUAL SINGLES HITTING!!!
when i ride/train with the really fast dudes...i LIVE above 180bpm
This doesn't make any sense to me that you can "live" above 180 bpm but not be able to play singles for more than 2 hours.

I guess I'm not understanding this "wall" that you are hitting. In other words, what type of additional fitness would be required for you not to hit this wall? It can't be a question of endurance or intensity. You sustain heartrates in the 180's for 100 mile bike rides. If you did the "magical" HIIT training, I don't think you'd sustain heartrates like that for even 10 minutes at a crack. And in tennis you spend more time resting between points or playing short points than you do sustaining 180 bpm stretches.

cycling and running fitness is completely different from tennis fitness. tennis movement recruits different muscles. when do you ever move laterally, diagonally or backwards on a bike or when running?
cycling is generally steady-state aerobic, doesnt develop upper-body strength, and is non-weight bearing. pretty much the exact opposite of tennis.
You're telling me that even though you can "live" at 180 bmp, that shouldn't translate into you being able to play tennis for more than 2 hours? Just because you have to move laterally, diagnolly, or backward? Or because of something to do with upper body strength or weight bearing required to play tennis?

I'll take your word for it, but if I saw a guy sustaining 180 bpm for over an hour, I'd guess he'd be fine playing tennis for over an hour. Just speaking for myself, my running training translated into me being able to play tennis for hours without getting tired at all. Just for me (I guess), sustaining 5:30 running pace for 40 minutes was much harder than playing tennis for 2 hours.

Anyway, I guess I've learned something in this thread. I'll actually refrain from making any fitness / exercise suggestions if there is this much variability between people. I never imagined it.
 
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Fintft

G.O.A.T.
This doesn't make any sense to me that you can "live" above 180 bpm but not be able to play singles for more than 2 hours.

I guess I'm not understanding this "wall" that you are hitting. In other words, what type of additional fitness would be required for you not to hit this wall? It can't be a question of endurance or intensity. You sustain heartrates in the 180's for 100 mile bike rides. If you did the "magical" HIIT training, I don't think you'd sustain heartrates like that for even 10 minutes at a crack. And in tennis you spend more time resting between points or playing short points than you do sustaining 180 bpm stretches.



You're telling me that even though you can "live" at 180 bmp, that shouldn't translate into you being able to play tennis for more than 2 hours? Just because you have to move laterally, diagnolly, or backward? Or because of something to do with upper body strength or weight bearing required to play tennis?

I'll take your word for it, but if I saw a guy sustaining 180 bpm for over an hour, I'd guess he'd be fine playing tennis for over an hour. Just speaking for myself, my running training translated into me being able to play tennis for hours without getting tired at all. Just for me (I guess), sustaining 5:30 running pace for 40 minutes was much harder than playing tennis for 2 hours.

Anyway, I guess I've learned something in this thread. I'll actually refrain from making any fitness / exercise suggestions if there is this much variability between people. I never imagined it.
Please continue to make suggestions as Wally seems to be an exception: a cyclist with a high max heart rate.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
cycling is generally steady-state aerobic, doesnt develop upper-body strength, and is non-weight bearing. pretty much the exact opposite of tennis.
In competitive (singles) tennis, something like 40% to 60% of energy needs are derived from the aerobic system according to the studies I've seen. The remainder is derived from 2 anaerobic systems. Interval training is often employed to develop the 2 anaerobic systems.

I'll try to dig up one of the sources I've seen previously on the utilization of the 3 energy systems employed for tennis. In the meantime, I'll leave you with this:


UPDATE:

Take a look at pages 40-47 of this PDF doc:
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
yep, my exertion HR number have always been high. those "normal" ranges have never applied to me -- bell curves and all, yes?

current resting HR ~50 and BP ~105/65 --> generally considered quite fit for someone well into middle age. get a physical ever year, and every time the nurses do a double take when seeing my vitals --> i always tell them thats normal for me.
Sorry, I had previously missed your earlier post (#5) where you had provided some of this info

So, what does your doctors have to say about your abnormally high ranges? Cause for concern? Treatment? A 2 hour limit is rather short. At your age, I could easily go 3-4 hours of vigorous tennis. (Even 5 hours a couple of times). Have you ever had a heart stress test?

 

Injured Again

Hall of Fame
@tennis3 I have seen a number of athletes who seem to have unusual limitations, and they all have had some root cause in their physiological makeup.

In the case of @wallymann - it may be that he has concentrated on endurance fitness for many years and so has become almost all type 1 muscle fibers. Type 1 tend to have high oxidative capacity but LOW glycolitic capacity, which means that they will not handle repeated bouts of anaerobic stress. If this is the case, we can ask @wallymann whether he is a good sprinter or not. People with an usually high percentage of type 1 fibers usually won’t have much top end speed.

This would also mean that a bursty anaerobic sport like tennis can really wear him out and drive up his heart rate since he doesn’t have high anaerobic capacity, or have the muscle fiber makeup to quickly shed lactate overloads. Eventually, that acidic environment can cause his muscle fibers to become inefficient - he will feel like he is just out of gas and can't perform.

I knew one extreme example like that. It was a guy who did the majority of his training on a stationary bike at a steady resistance. On the roads, he was a beast. He could sit at the front and pull the pack along at 24 MPH on flat roads for seemingly days. But I don’t think that guy could hit 30 MPH sprinting unless it were downhill. He always got gapped near the end of group rides if someone hammered it over a hill, or got a gap on him where he had to go 28-30 MPH to close it down. He just couldn’t hang with the bunch at those times. But if we didn’t keep it going, he’d eventually reel us back in with his high steady state speed.
 
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