2hr on the wall is really good. 1hr is usually my max.
Your heart rate is crazy for just playing tennis. You must be horrible cardio shape.
Interesting. I'd think tennis would be very easy for you then. Hard to imagine you're getting so tired you "hit the wall" after playing for 2 hours. You must run like crazy and not take any breaks? Play really fast so you have no recovery time? Are you playing cardio tennis?i'm actually in decent cardio shape...resting HR is 45-50bpm and BP is 105/65...i've always tended to run high HR under exertion my whole life...thats my natural range.
lifelong competitive cyclist...i'm happy to lace up my cleats and do a competitive 100 mile ride with you any time!
i'm actually in decent cardio shape...resting HR is 45-50bpm and BP is 105/65...i've always tended to run high HR under exertion my whole life...thats my natural range.
lifelong competitive cyclist...i'm happy to lace up my cleats and do a competitive 100 mile ride with you any time!
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Gotta close that mouth, or you are going to end up with a mouth full of bugs!i'm actually in decent cardio shape...resting HR is 45-50bpm and BP is 105/65...i've always tended to run high HR under exertion my whole life...thats my natural range.
lifelong competitive cyclist...i'm happy to lace up my cleats and do a competitive 100 mile ride with you any time!
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Do you stretch (daily)? Especially after workouts?My problem as I push Into my 50s is that my Achilles/calves/hammies start to feel like they are about to rupture when I hit the 2h mark.
Interesting. I'd think tennis would be very easy for you then. Hard to imagine you're getting so tired you "hit the wall" after playing for 2 hours. You must run like crazy and not take any breaks? Play really fast so you have no recovery time? Are you playing cardio tennis?
I'll do the 100 mile ride so long as we run at least 10 miles after that. Winner take all.
That's great but what's your Heart Recovery Rate?i'm actually in decent cardio shape...resting HR is 45-50bpm and BP is 105/65...i've always tended to run high HR under exertion my whole life...thats my natural range.
lifelong competitive cyclist...i'm happy to lace up my cleats and do a competitive 100 mile ride with you any time!
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It's ok to have a low max heart rate, very common for cyclists and beneficial, as per post #13 above.@wallymann Lifetime cyclist here. I was still a 350-watt-for-an-hour guy at age 40, which sounds great but not when considering I was 85 kilos!
I found that when I cycled a lot, much more of the time was at steady state efforts. When I trained short and hard, my efforts were very stochastic, and those were the times when I felt tireless playing tennis.
Since I no longer do the marathon single day cycling events like I used to, I now almost use cycling exclusively as training for tennis. I’ll do many 3-5 minute efforts at MLSS + 5%, and about the same number of 10-20 second efforts at 150% MLSS. This builds up my anaerobic fitness and really mimics the type of bursty efforts in tennis.
Now at age 62 and with a new knee, I intend to get back to being able to play two-plus hours with minimal athletic performance loss like I was able to a few years ago. My max heart rate is now only about 165 but even going until I’m gasping, I find it hard to get my heart rate to even 140 on court. A two hour session on the bike will have an average heart rate of about 150.
Not a doc, cant explain it. When in great shape (for me) my resting HR regularly got into the low mid 40s. And I'm FAR from a great cyclists. My HR is very responsive...with exertion my HR responds immediately with little lag, when I stop it drops like a stone also with little lag.That's great but what's your Heart Recovery Rate?
Very easy to estimate (there are threads), but basically run you exercise bike at max HR, measure it, stop and measure it again after 1 min.
An excellent one is over 30 beats, I bet you have over 50 beats.
Mine goes down by over 50 beats, but my max heart rate doesn't go too high (never near 160, more like 125 ) and my resting HR is 52, while the latest BP is 133/84. Also older than you.
I am kinda puzzled that a competive cyclist " tended to run high HR under exertion your whole life...be it your natural range", as I've only done about 1 year of competitive cyclism and my resting HR after exercise was bellow 60 (basically very high heart recovery rate at 16 years old) and also historically speaking the lowest I’ve heard of for a cyclist was Miguel Indurain, who recorded a RHR of 28. I think the world record was recorded by a runner named Daniel Green, and his RHR was 26.
Truth be told I did ride my bike for longer, except not competitively and also build my endurance in other sports such as handball and basketball where I was working hard. Now I only play tennis, sport wise.
Nice, so what is your HRR? 60?Not a doc, cant explain it. When in great shape (for me) my resting HR regularly got into the low mid 40s. And I'm FAR from a great cyclists. My HR is very responsive...with exertion my HR responds immediately with little lag, when I stop it drops like a stone also with little lag.
It's ok to have a low max heart rate, very common for cyclists and beneficial, as per post #13 above.
I also have some arrhythmia.The max heart rate I’ve ever seen was 194, when I was in my 20’s and doing a VO2 test on a treadmill. That’s typical of people with my mesomorphic body structure. At around that time, I was training with a guy who would eventually do a sub-10 hour Ironman who was an ectomorph and his max heart rate was something like 218, and he could sustain upper 190’s for an hour.
Because I had an interest in exercise physiology, because I have a slight mitral valve prolapse at rest that disappears under exertion, and because for a few years I worked at a lab developing Doppler ultrasound equipment, I ended up getting a full cardiac imaging study done for free, which showed that, typical of mesomorphs, I had much higher than typical stroke volume To offset my lower hear rate capability. And even of that group, mine stroke volume was on the higher end, and I had larger than typical lung capacity too.
I was told that if I could manage to drop about 30 pounds, I might have a chance at competing as a national level athlete. Drop 30 pounds? I was 185 pounds and 14% body fat. I was not going to emaciate myself to become a potential low level cat 1 cyclist. Instead, I became the recreational cyclist guy that everyone liked to draft behind because I wore a 44/45 jacket size, who would pull everyone to the base of the hills to watch them then just ride off into the distance when the road tilted up.
I fortunately never trained hard enough to develop hear rhythm abnormalities. But I have heard through the grapevine that some significant percentage of the really fast guys I knew 30 years ago have arrhythmias.
i'm in my mid 50s and am in that group. not the "really fast guys" but the lifelong cyclists that have developed arrhythimas despite (actually, its "because of") a lifelong commitment to excessive endurance training. it's called colloquially "athletes heart syndrome"The max heart rate I’ve ever seen was 194, when I was in my 20’s and doing a VO2 test on a treadmill. That’s typical of people with my mesomorphic body structure. At around that time, I was training with a guy who would eventually do a sub-10 hour Ironman who was an ectomorph and his max heart rate was something like 218, and he could sustain upper 190’s for an hour.
Because I had an interest in exercise physiology, because I have a slight mitral valve prolapse at rest that disappears under exertion, and because for a few years I worked at a lab developing Doppler ultrasound equipment, I ended up getting a full cardiac imaging study done for free, which showed that, typical of mesomorphs, I had much higher than typical stroke volume To offset my lower hear rate capability. And even of that group, mine stroke volume was on the higher end, and I had larger than typical lung capacity too.
I was told that if I could manage to drop about 30 pounds, I might have a chance at competing as a national level athlete. Drop 30 pounds? I was 185 pounds and 14% body fat. I was not going to emaciate myself to become a potential low level cat 1 cyclist. Instead, I became the recreational cyclist guy that everyone liked to draft behind because I wore a 44/45 jacket size, who would pull everyone to the base of the hills to watch them then just ride off into the distance when the road tilted up.
I fortunately never trained hard enough to develop hear rhythm abnormalities. But I have heard through the grapevine that some significant percentage of the really fast guys I knew 30 years ago have arrhythmias.
That's crazy. I've never heard of anything like that.he could sustain upper 190’s for an hour.
cycling and running fitness is completely different from tennis fitness. tennis movement recruits different muscles. when do you ever move laterally, diagonally or backwards on a bike or when running?Interesting. I'd think tennis would be very easy for you then. Hard to imagine you're getting so tired you "hit the wall" after playing for 2 hours. You must run like crazy and not take any breaks? Play really fast so you have no recovery time? Are you playing cardio tennis?
I'll do the 100 mile ride so long as we run at least 10 miles after that. Winner take all.
when i ride/train with the really fast dudes...i LIVE above 180bpm just to hang with them and grovel in the draft...they're riding 30bpm lower and smiling on the front.That's crazy. I've never heard of anything like that.
Whoa, your HR numbers look awfully ( extremely) high given your age. Normal max should be close to 165 bpm and target range is about 85-140 bpm. Energetic / vigorous singles tennis players will keep their HR in their target zone for most of a match. They are using their aerobic system as well as 2 anaerobic systems for their energy needs during a match.i'm in my mid 50s and am in that group. not the "really fast guys" but the lifelong cyclists that have developed arrhythimas despite (actually, its "because of") a lifelong commitment to excessive endurance training. it's called colloquially "athletes heart syndrome"
Whoa, your HR numbers look awfully ( extremely) high given your age. Normal max should be close to 165 bpm and target range is about 85-140 bpm....Curious, what is your resting HR and your average BP?
That's crazy. I've never heard of anything like that.
I used to train at 170-175 bpm maybe twice or 3 times a month and sustain that for around 30 to 40 minutes (I'd generally be running around 5:30 pace). That was very hard. One of my least favorite training days. That's when my race pace would have been around 5 minute miles for a 5K.
I could barely hit 190 bpm when I did track days. And I certainly wasn't sustaining that for an hour.
i'm in my mid 50s and am in that group. not the "really fast guys" but the lifelong cyclists that have developed arrhythimas despite (actually, its "because of") a lifelong commitment to excessive endurance training. it's called colloquially "athletes heart syndrome"
its pretty clear when my speed/movement dips and i've hit the wall --> i'm good for ~2hrs of ACTUAL SINGLES HITTING!!!
This doesn't make any sense to me that you can "live" above 180 bpm but not be able to play singles for more than 2 hours.when i ride/train with the really fast dudes...i LIVE above 180bpm
cycling and running fitness is completely different from tennis fitness. tennis movement recruits different muscles. when do you ever move laterally, diagonally or backwards on a bike or when running?
You're telling me that even though you can "live" at 180 bmp, that shouldn't translate into you being able to play tennis for more than 2 hours? Just because you have to move laterally, diagnolly, or backward? Or because of something to do with upper body strength or weight bearing required to play tennis?cycling is generally steady-state aerobic, doesnt develop upper-body strength, and is non-weight bearing. pretty much the exact opposite of tennis.
Please continue to make suggestions as Wally seems to be an exception: a cyclist with a high max heart rate.This doesn't make any sense to me that you can "live" above 180 bpm but not be able to play singles for more than 2 hours.
I guess I'm not understanding this "wall" that you are hitting. In other words, what type of additional fitness would be required for you not to hit this wall? It can't be a question of endurance or intensity. You sustain heartrates in the 180's for 100 mile bike rides. If you did the "magical" HIIT training, I don't think you'd sustain heartrates like that for even 10 minutes at a crack. And in tennis you spend more time resting between points or playing short points than you do sustaining 180 bpm stretches.
You're telling me that even though you can "live" at 180 bmp, that shouldn't translate into you being able to play tennis for more than 2 hours? Just because you have to move laterally, diagnolly, or backward? Or because of something to do with upper body strength or weight bearing required to play tennis?
I'll take your word for it, but if I saw a guy sustaining 180 bpm for over an hour, I'd guess he'd be fine playing tennis for over an hour. Just speaking for myself, my running training translated into me being able to play tennis for hours without getting tired at all. Just for me (I guess), sustaining 5:30 running pace for 40 minutes was much harder than playing tennis for 2 hours.
Anyway, I guess I've learned something in this thread. I'll actually refrain from making any fitness / exercise suggestions if there is this much variability between people. I never imagined it.
In competitive (singles) tennis, something like 40% to 60% of energy needs are derived from the aerobic system according to the studies I've seen. The remainder is derived from 2 anaerobic systems. Interval training is often employed to develop the 2 anaerobic systems.cycling is generally steady-state aerobic, doesnt develop upper-body strength, and is non-weight bearing. pretty much the exact opposite of tennis.
Sorry, I had previously missed your earlier post (#5) where you had provided some of this infoyep, my exertion HR number have always been high. those "normal" ranges have never applied to me -- bell curves and all, yes?
current resting HR ~50 and BP ~105/65 --> generally considered quite fit for someone well into middle age. get a physical ever year, and every time the nurses do a double take when seeing my vitals --> i always tell them thats normal for me.
I do have a regular partner, former track and field athlete with too high max Heart rate and very poor Heart recovery rate. He worries me during our hits lol@tennis3 I have seen a number of athletes who seem to have unusual limitations, and they all have had some root cause in their physiological makeup.
In the case of @wallymann - it may be that he has concentrated on endurance fitness for many years and so has become almost all type 1 muscle fibers. Type 1 tend to have high oxidative capacity but LOW glycolitic capacity, which means that they will not handle repeated bouts of anaerobic stress. If this is the case, we can ask @wallymann whether he is a good sprinter or not. People with an usually high percentage of type 1 fibers usually won’t have much top end speed.
This would also mean that a bursty anaerobic sport like tennis can really wear him out and drive up his heart rate since he doesn’t have high anaerobic capacity, or have the muscle fiber makeup to quickly shed lactate overloads. Eventually, that acidic environment can cause his muscle fibers to become inefficient - he will feel like he is just out of gas and can't perform.
I knew one extreme example like that. It was a guy who did the majority of his training on a stationary bike at a steady resistance. On the roads, he was a beast. He could sit at the front and pull the pack along at 24 MPH on flat roads for seemingly days. But I don’t think that guy could hit 30 MPH sprinting unless it were downhill. He always got gapped near the end of group rides if someone hammered it over a hill, or got a gap on him where he had to go 28-30 MPH to close it down. He just couldn’t hang with the bunch at those times. But if we didn’t keep it going, he’d eventually reel us back in with his high steady state speed.
@tennis3 ...If this is the case, we can ask @wallymann whether he is a good sprinter or not...
i am not! and i'm nearing retirement age, so whatever type-2 muscle performance i had in my youth is definitely lower these days...
What's your VO2 max?The max heart rate I’ve ever seen was 194, when I was in my 20’s and doing a VO2 test on a treadmill. That’s typical of people with my mesomorphic body structure. At around that time, I was training with a guy who would eventually do a sub-10 hour Ironman who was an ectomorph and his max heart rate was something like 218, and he could sustain upper 190’s for an hour.
Because I had an interest in exercise physiology, because I have a slight mitral valve prolapse at rest that disappears under exertion, and because for a few years I worked at a lab developing Doppler ultrasound equipment, I ended up getting a full cardiac imaging study done for free, which showed that, typical of mesomorphs, I had much higher than typical stroke volume To offset my lower hear rate capability. And even of that group, mine stroke volume was on the higher end, and I had larger than typical lung capacity too.
I was told that if I could manage to drop about 30 pounds, I might have a chance at competing as a national level athlete. Drop 30 pounds? I was 185 pounds and 14% body fat. I was not going to emaciate myself to become a potential low level cat 1 cyclist. Instead, I became the recreational cyclist guy that everyone liked to draft behind because I wore a 44/45 jacket size, who would pull everyone to the base of the hills to watch them then just ride off into the distance when the road tilted up.
I fortunately never trained hard enough to develop hear rhythm abnormalities. But I have heard through the grapevine that some significant percentage of the really fast guys I knew 30 years ago have arrhythmias.
What's your VO2 max?
Ever tried to have it measured by an Apple watch?Sorry, did not see this until now.
I’m 63 years old now so it’s nothing like it was when I was my most aerobically fit in my early to middle 30’s. Then, I was a 400+ watt guy on a bike. Assuming that I made 75 watts per l/min of o2 intake, my total oxygen intake would have been around 5.5 liters per minute at 85 kg, so that would have been around 64-65 ml/min/kg. That seems about right. I could hang with the cat II/III guys pretty well but the cat I’s would blow me away on the climbs. I was pretty speedy on the flats. My best 10 mile time was 21:xx with no aero bars.
Today, I’m kind of scared to train super intensely as I don’t want to have some sort of cardiac event, and I’m primarily playing tennis. The last few years, it feels like about 320 watts is where I’m at, but I’m now 90 kg so my current Vo2 guesstimate is 47 ml/min/kg, which feels a little high. I’d realistically think 43-45 ml/min/kg, so maybe I can’t really sustain 320 watts for an hour even though doing so for 10-15 minutes feels relatively easy.
No, I don’t have an Apple Watch. I did have a Fitbit which gave me an estimate of 50 ml/min/kg after I used it for several bike rides, but the margin was plus/minus 10%. I don’t know what the Fitbit used to generate that estimate. It was a basic model with only heart rate.Ever tried to have it measured by an Apple watch?
I went as fast as I could for a few seconds and generated about 1200 Kwh