Davydenko: The top players of the younger generation are not that good technically.

Do you agree with Davydenko?


  • Total voters
    126
Guy 100% didn't watch tennis at the time yet he's out here talking with so much conviction.

Like you said, Henman was the only player to beat Roddick other than Federer during his 37-2 run from Queens-USO that year. Factoring in Henman's level of play and the fact that he wasn't a easy match up for Roddick, there's no doubt he was a very tough 1st round match up.

Actually, I did watch at that time. A lot of tennis. Fortunately, I still watch it, and know that Roddick is not the be-all-end-all of anything. Unlike you. Trapped in the early 2000s. It must be hard. Is that you Brad G.?

Henman was much tougher on grass than at the US Open. He had one very good year at the USO, and that was in 2004. His best win was probably Todd Martin or Muster. He reached the 4th round only twice in his career.
 
In 2019, under the guidance of Nicholas Massu, Thiem’s strokes were shortened, and he adopted a more aggressive court position. I wrote about this here. For an in-depth look at Thiem’s forehand evolution, check out this video. The shorter swing made Thiem a hardcourt threat in the space of months. The gifs below all showcase the kind of shots and points that were made possible by the swing adjustment.


https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F1db2f555-8218-4a92-9748-9e17369a1ff5_640x360.gif

At the 2020 Australian Open, Thiem got his first win against Nadal on a hard court. You can see very early on in the match Thiem adopting a Federer-like 1-2 punch from inside the baseline. A combination that was made possible with this shorter forehand take back. If you watch the highlights from that match here, note throughout the encounter how well Thiem held the baseline, often taking the ball on the rise.
https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F3c512246-ac0c-4b95-b172-d419eb118a12_640x360.gif

Shorter swing and taking time > bigger swing from deep in the court. If you watch the Davydenko highlights from the YouTube clip earlier in this article you will notice how often he plays from on (or inside) the baseline, preferring to hit a rally ball from an aggressive position. This is how you beat the Big-3 on hard courts.
https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F8ca41b22-ccab-4e86-b4b5-afba2b0b5489_688x334.gif

Same pattern here against Djokovic early in the final.

While Thiem’s peak years were cruelly interrupted with a serious wrist injury, his transformation from clay court specialist to all-court danger should be noticed by other young players. Thiem always had power, but it wasn’t until he was willing to dial down the swing and stand up in the court that he became a better player. Wrist action is minimal. Power and spin are sacrificed for directional control. In this set-up, a players court coverage and all-court style is able to manifest fully.

On the eve of Wimbledon, another player who uses a very short forehand swing has quickly found form on the grass after being sidelined for the clay season. Matteo Berrettini has a huge serve, and the forehand is a hammer that he can hold the baseline with, partly because of how compact it is.
The huge serve and dynamic forehand has earned Berrettini hiw own gatekeeper status; in his last 4 slams the Italian has lost to Nadal (22’ AO SF), Djokovic (21’ US QF), Djokovic (21’ Wimbledon F), and Djokovic (21’ French QF). However, Berrettini’s backhand is a clear achilles heel, lacking the control or power of his forehand. Joel Myers explains the weakness in this swing, and compares it to Jannik Sinner’s brilliant two-hander in the 90-second clip below.
When I look at the young players littered in the top 20, few possess the sound mechanics of a Federer, Djokovic, Nadal, Davydenko, Nalbandian, or Wawrinka off both wings.3 Davydenko is right—the power and physicality is there—but the top youngsters are playing with deteriorated technique in some part of their game. It works when you have time or are playing deep behind the baseline, but it doesn’t translate into an effective transition game capable of stealing time, it doesn’t hold up as well on return, it doesn’t generate a controllable flat ball, and it bleeds errors when on the run.

Players and commentators often say tennis is about movement and the mental game. Yes, these two facets are hugely important, but if you don’t have efficient and technically sound swings you can’t leverage your movement effectively; you can step in with fleet of foot, but your hands won’t keep up, and you’re more likely to misshit. If you can’t step in and apply pressure, you’re destined to play deep in the court and let your opponent dictate your fate. It doesn’t usually end well against the Big-3.

WIMBLEDON

While Berrettini has been impressive in his two grass tune up events, and is certainly one of the favourites, my two leading contenders are still Novak Djokovic and Rafael Nadal. They move too well and are too clean from both wings compared to the rest of the field. An unbelievable serving day on the grass will be required from a Kyrgios, Hurkacz, Berrettini, or Auger-Aliassime; off the ground they are holding the weaker hand, especially on their backhand sides.

Hubert Hurkacz has a better backhand than forehand, I would argue. Most of this I agree with though.
 
Hubert Hurkacz has a better backhand than forehand, I would argue. Most of this I agree with though.
I would also say that he does. At times when he's not confident you'll even see him run around the forehand to hit backhands. I've said before, but I think he potentially has the weakest forehand in top 20. Although I kinda forget which all scrubs are in the top 20 today.
 
Yeah maybe. I don't like Hurkacz's forehand necessarily, but when it's on he can crack it. Backhand is solid on quick stuff

Yes, when it's on he wins titles ;)

But he gets a bit loosey-goosey, and just guides the ball up the line.
 
Don't be an idiot. He was not winning the French Open. After all he lost to Gaudio...who also should not have been winning that year.

He won his Slams in 2001 and 2002. Murray and Wawrinka could have done the same or better.


1. you saying Hewitt won a slam in 03, weren't you?
2. Even if we leave FO 2004, that's still 6 of the 6 other slams Hewitt played in 04-05. You didn't address the actual point.

enough is enough. you don't know sh*t about tennis in early 2000s. Watch something, get to know stuff instead of making yourself look like a gigantic fool and a**.
 
Is this a joke?

Ljubicic was not a threat. He never took a set off the big 3 at Slams. He never even faced Federer at a Slam.

A big server like Ljubicic/Berr can be a threat in an earlier round of a slam. Less so in later rounds.
what is a joke is multiple statements of yours in this thread.
 
Djokovic and Nadal are still very close to their best in slams. Actually, saving themselves for slams probably makes things even more difficult for competition. Imagine Djokovic 2012-2014 saving himself for slams...

wtf.
12-14 DJokvic would wipe the floor with post AO 19 Djokovic in slams and I mean wipe the floor.
Current competition is a joke compared to 12-14
 
Wouldn't say they're close to their best even in slams. Djokodal normally wouldn't need to come back from 0-2 down to beat Tsitsipas and Medvedev in major finals.
They didn't play Tsitsipas and Medvedev in major finals back then. Basically, your argument is your own underestimation of them. Djokovic lost meekly to Murray 2013, lost to Nishikori (visible fitness problem), fought back from two sets down vs Seppi in RG, etc... Nadal was losing to mugs left and right on grass and hard. In 2018, Basilashvili and KK put him through the ringer in USO, for example. Much better winning a final of his long awaited DCGS (so there's additional occasional pressure) from 0-2 down then that or being hit from majors by Brown and co., don't you think?
Djokovic 2012-2014 did underperform at slams but not because of tiredness. He could afford to give his best anywhere because he was still in his mid 20's. The field was also extremely different back then and Djokovic of back then would have 0 issues with the Next Gen.
Again, your only argument is your own estimate, when in reality, Djokodal had struggles with much lesser players than them before and were visibly gassed out in several major defeats. You don't get to have so many masters titles without paying physical and form timing price. Which again doesn't mean they have same amount of energy as before but that they are managing it superbly and are mostly primed for slam performances.
wtf.
12-14 DJokvic would wipe the floor with post AO 19 Djokovic in slams and I mean wipe the floor.
Current competition is a joke compared to 12-14
You not having a clue about tennis and writing nonsense is not proving anything.
 
He was the main one...from a certain point of view. Rafa could also be the main one...from a certain point of view.

Do your POV's closely factor in the tennis being played? If not, still irrelevant to the quality of the era. We can play language and semantic games all day.
 
Do your POV's closely factor in the tennis being played? If not, still irrelevant to the quality of the era. We can play language and semantic games all day.

Of course they factor in. Rafa was not around to any great degree in 2004. He was just starting to emerge in 2005. Only by 2006, can we call him a rival. And in reality, it was not until after Wimbledon (where he proved he could play on other surfaces) that this was agreed upon by most people.
 
Davydenko is right to say that the new generations of players they lack control on their groundstrokes and have not strengthened or improved upon older generations of players.
Between the gigantic shadow of the Big 3, technology that hasn't seen a sea change that has favored younger players, complacency about winning millions in a short time, and adulation that this entails, the social networks that amplify the Superego to stratospheric levels, the inefficiency of the technical trainers in North America and Australia, who have not known how to respond to the new challenges that the European tennis player imposed with his greater variety in general features, the ATP that despite the promotions to the new breed of tennis player has not been able to channel the talents of them with the current conditions of the game, the press and the mass media that extol the players with the pressure that this entails, the relatives of the players who, in addition to tremendous pressure for them, they have not known and been able to cut the umbilical cord so that they grow more assertively and with a greater variety of options not only at the tennis level (and what is this leads to slopes) but as beings that need to enrich themselves beyond the protection of their home; in short, there are many more factors, I don't think that the current phenotype of the players can give us a great longevity, despite the undoubted advances of modern medicine.
It is a very complex that encompasses much more than Tennis and that reflects the society in which we live, where success is everything and defeat is synonymous with failure, instead of growth and education until our personal improvement; the journey into the unknown (the introspection of each one's individuality) is the most important and the most lasting.
8-B
 
Of course they factor in. Rafa was not around to any great degree in 2004.

Yep, called him his rival in 2004.

He was just starting to emerge in 2005.

Where he won more in 1 year than Roddick in all 4.

Only by 2006, can we call him a rival.

What you wish to call him doesn't change the quality of the tennis, which is the main determinant for how strong the era was. Not fanciful abstractions. The tennis.


And in reality, it was not until after Wimbledon (where he proved he could play on other surfaces) that this was agreed upon by most people.

Nadal was 2-1 on HC's with Fed by then and won all four of their CC matches. Roddick notched his second TOTAL win against Fed in 2008. If the general public didn't view him as Fed's rival, it bears no significance on how he affected Fed's bottom-line and how good his play was. Empty labels. If everyone the world over thought they were rivals, what changes?[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 

He won more in one year because he was better than Roddick. He won more than Safin, but Rafa probably was not ready to challenge Roger at the AO yet.

It's always about titles with Fed fans. Probably because that's their last refugee.
 
He won more in one year because he was better than Roddick. He won more than Safin, but Rafa probably was not ready to challenge Roger at the AO yet.

Better than Roddick, played Federer as much as Roddick did (and more in subsequent years), and challenged him much more.

So, yeah. Main rival.


It's always about titles with Fed fans. Probably because that's their last refugee.

That makes absolutely no sense. What are you even trying to say?

Fedr most total titles among Big 3 last refuge = Nadal outperforming Roddick in every possible metric in 2005? Huh?
 
Better than Roddick, played Federer as much as Roddick did (and more in subsequent years), and challenged him much more.

So, yeah. Main rival.




That makes absolutely no sense. What are you even trying to say?

Fedr most total titles among Big 3 last refuge =/= Nadal outperforming Roddick in every possible metric in 2005? Huh?

You just equated the fact that Nadal won more titles to being his main rival. What does one have to do with the other? Nole has zero titles this year, but was he a pushover for Rafa at Roland Garros? That's just lazy thinking.

No, not in 2005. Answer this question -- who is Rafa's biggest rival this year?
 
You just equated the fact that Nadal won more titles to being his main rival. What does one have to do with the other? Nole has zero titles this year, but was he a pushover for Rafa at Roland Garros? That's just lazy thinking.

I'm not using total titles won as the only metric, though. It's one of several. Nadal not only outperformed Roddick, he played Federer as often as Roddick did and challenged him more than Roddick did. By every possible angle outside of public perception (which means squat when judging level of play), he was his main rival in 2005.


No, not in 2005. Answer this question -- who is Rafa's biggest rival this year?

Can't really say anyone's created much separation from the pack; his "legacy" rival is Djokovic, but Djoko played a poor match in their QF. Any of Alcaraz, Med, or Djoko could jockey for that position, but it's still early.

That said, if Alcaraz has a Nadal-in-'05-type year and snags a slam beating Nadal in the process, it would be clearly him, on the year.
 
Not a troll. Unlike most Fed fans these days, I still contribute to many threads on many different topics.

Fed fans are holed up in one or two wallowing over bygone days when he still had a chance to win the Slam race. Pity, some of them used to be decent posters.
I didn’t say you’re a troll but you’re using the very same disingenuous tactics they use.
 
I'm not using total titles won as the only metric, though. It's one of several. Nadal not only outperformed Roddick, he played Federer as often as Roddick did and challenged him more than Roddick did.

In that post, titles was included as metric. It is not a particularly useful one, especially given that he only played Fed in one of those title runs.

He played Fed once on clay and once on hard court. The only difference is Rafa was winning his. But in 2005, Marat also had one win and one loss, including at a Slam. Surely, after their match in 2004 at the AO, you can agree that he was better primed to be a rival across surfaces than some untested kid who specialized on clay?

Can't really say anyone's created much separation from the pack; his "legacy" rival is Djokovic, but Djoko played a poor match in their QF. Any of Alcaraz, Med, or Djoko could jockey for that position, but it's still early.

That said, if Alcaraz has a Nadal-in-'05-type year and snags a slam beating Nadal in the process, it would be clearly him, on the year.

No, that's my point. It would not clearly be him.
 
I didn’t say you’re a troll but you’re using the very same disingenuous tactics they use.

No, I'm not using any disingenuous tactics. In 2005, Marat: 1 title, 2 matches against Fed; Rafa: 11 titles, 2 matches; Agassi: 1 title, 4 matches; Roddick: 5 titles, 2 matches.

Rafa did not play Andy or Marat in 2005 either. Why is he the biggest rival?
 
In that post, titles was included as metric.


Yes, included, not used as a be-all, end-all. If Nadal didn't have other points in his favour, I'd be more lenient to your total disregard for how his success on the year pertains to him being Fed's mani rival. But he does. So I'm not.


It is not a particularly useful one, especially given that he only played Fed in one of those title runs.

So what should Fed have done, lost the Miami match to boost those numbers? He only lost 4 times all year. Roddick played Federer 0 times en route to a title run, and handily lost both finals they played.

He played Fed once on clay and once on hard court. The only difference is Rafa was winning his. But in 2005, Marat also had one win and one loss, including at a Slam. Surely, after their match in 2004 at the AO, you can agree that he was better primed to be a rival across surfaces than some untested kid who specialized on clay?

But he didn't. So he wasn't. Again, we're comparing how they were perceived by nameless, faceless people vs. the actual tennis played and the light it shed on the quality of Federer's competition.


No, that's my point. It would not clearly be him.

It wouldn't be...now.

However, it would be if he had a Nadal-like year and beat him in a slam as '05 Nadal did with Fed.
 
Lol, guy talking about Agassi-Roddick H2H without mentioning Roddick was 17 in the 1st 2 losses and still playing juniors at the time (he won the 2000 juniors USO) and Agassi was the world number 1.

Medvedev, the most accomplished of the 90s gen clique, is not only 1-5 against Oldal (all matches on HC) but also 1-4 against old RBA (on HC/grass, no clay matches either), with every match against Nadal and the last four against RBA being firmly in Sadlad's prime. Primedick never allowed someone of RBA's stature to dominate him off clay; the only non-slam-winner who had a positive H2H with Roddick in his prime (defined as 2003-10 here as that's when he qualified for the YEC) off clay was Schuettler, who mysteriously went 3-0 against Roddick in 2003. Given that Andy finished the season as #1, that was kind of silly I admit, but no other H2H flops can be found and even that one was against a slam finalise and YEC participant.
 
Medvedev, the most accomplished of the 90s gen clique, is not only 1-5 against Oldal (all matches on HC) but also 1-4 against old RBA (on HC/grass, no clay matches either), with every match against Nadal and the last four against RBA being firmly in Sadlad's prime. Primedick never allowed someone of RBA's stature to dominate him off clay; the only non-slam-winner who had a positive H2H with Roddick in his prime (defined as 2003-10 here as that's when he qualified for the YEC) off clay was Schuettler, who mysteriously went 3-0 against Roddick in 2003. Given that Andy finished the season as #1, that was kind of silly I admit, but no other H2H flops can be found and even that one was against a slam finalise and YEC participant.
Probably worth noting Roddick was exhausted in the AO loss with back to back 5 setters and the El Aynaoui match was really closer to a 8 setter. Not sure about the other 2 losses, don't know much about them. This article below from the TMC match shows Roddick didn't play too well with 49 UEs and 6 out of 8 DFs in the 3rd set. This match was right after Rod had secured the YE#1 with Ferrero's loss to Agassi.


Also, Roddick's 03 was primarily built off of that 37-2 Queens-USO run right after he hired Gilbert as his coach. I reckon he could've probably got Schuettler there had they matched up. Schuettler was a solid player tho, no major weapons but had a good return game plus defense.
 
Back
Top