Decline in 3.5 entries in USTA tournaments

Turbo-87

G.O.A.T.
I am just curious if this is a trend in other areas as well. I started playing tennis three + years ago and played in four USTA summer tournaments each year in Iowa. My first year there were anywhere from 12-16 entrants in men's 3.5 singles in each tournament. The next year it dropped to 8 max. This year, there were three entries in the first tournament and one I had wanted to play in this weekend in Cedar Rapids had only one entry. I wasn't going to drive and pay that much for one match. Also, total tournament entries for all of them have dropped significantly each year that I have played. There have never been ANY 3.5 doubles entries in any tournament even though it is an option.

Are other tournaments like this with a dearth of 3.5 players? I know I can play up and get wiped, but I just find it odd. I want to work my way up to 4.0 by winning 3.5 matches cleanly and improving my game rather than having to play up and get my clock cleaned. If I can't find tournaments to play in, how is that going to happen? ;)
 
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cknobman

Legend
So have you bothered to look and see if it because the 3.5 players are getting bumped up to 4.0?

This is what happens in my section and should be common throughout the USTA.

4.0 seems to be the sweet-spot for USTA ratings and where you find the largest allotment of players.

The major zone I am playing at this weekend is a good example:
3.5 mens singles: draw of 64, 36 total players
4.0 mens singles: draw of 128, 71 total players
4.5 mens singles: draw of 64, 41 total players

This is pretty consistent with every tournament I have played.
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
I've seen decreasing participation in a lot of different divisions. Sometimes, the reason is pretty simple. For example, I play a good deal of 35s when it's available. In my Middle Illinois district we have a bunch of tournaments in June every year. For years, we always had decent 35s draws. No longer. A lot of my old opponents aged out into 45s. Twice this year I've received calls from tournament directors asking me if I want a refund or if I want to play Open.

Beyond that specific example, I see lower participation generally than I did 5 or 10 years ago. I know a lot of people who just don't want to spend the money (or don't have it), and that's understandable. But, in many cases, the money issue isn't about the entry fee. It's about the additional USTA membership. While many people, including myself, play and travel to different tournaments, I know a LOT of players who would not travel but definitely would play a local tournament. For them, the annual USTA fee is not worth it to play one, maybe two, tournaments locally. For that reason, I think the USTA should have an available one-time fee. So, you either pay the entry fee and the full yearly USTA fee if you plan on playing a lot of tournaments, but you can also pay the entry fee and a one-time fee of $10 or something for what would basically be temporary USTA membership.
 

Turbo-87

G.O.A.T.
So have you bothered to look and see if it because the 3.5 players are getting bumped up to 4.0?

I'm sure that's part of it but to drop that much is odd. Not everyone can be winning that much. :) I'd certainly agree that 4.0 is the place to be if you want a good draw but it is also disheartening when you aren't quite there yet in terms of ability.
What I do find troubling is if that many people are getting bumped up, then where is the new blood? That brings me to the good points made by bluetrain4....
 

aussta54

New User
So have you bothered to look and see if it because the 3.5 players are getting bumped up to 4.0?

This is what happens in my section and should be common throughout the USTA.

4.0 seems to be the sweet-spot for USTA ratings and where you find the largest allotment of players.

The major zone I am playing at this weekend is a good example:
3.5 mens singles: draw of 64, 36 total players
4.0 mens singles: draw of 128, 71 total players
4.5 mens singles: draw of 64, 41 total players

This is pretty consistent with every tournament I have played.
Pretty consistent with me too. I think we're playing in the same major zone :).
 

Bionic slice

Semi-Pro
major zone are the big draws as cknobman said here in TEXAS. I played one last year and had fun playing people from other parts of the state. I have noticed a decline in the 3.5 draws. I havent played any tourneys this year but i have been following them in DFW as i have several friends who play in them monthly.
 

cknobman

Legend
USTA fees are getting ridiculous to be honest. I pay them but I dont like them.

Tournament fees are what really whacky. There are some tournaments charging as high as $45 per division entry (average is about $35) and even in doubles with no consolation they want big money.
Doubles should be literally HALF the singles price. You have twice as many people on one court and usually you dont get a guaranteed 2 matches via consolation draw.

USTA fees and prices are slowly killing interest from its own members and do nothing to help bring in new people.

In 2005 and 2006 when I started as a 3.0 and tournament fees were ~$20 there were draws of 64 in most tournaments, draw of 32 was small, and major zones had draws 128 (256 one time)!

Membership fee, league fee, fees for sectionals, feels for tournaments, FEES FEES FEES
 
I've seen the same thing here in Texas. Even a major zone this year had a pretty dismal amount of entrants. A few tournaments were cancelled earlier in the year due to lack of entrants. And I think it's all levels, not just 3.5. Between high tournament fees and having to take off Fridays, it's hard to find the time and money for them.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
It's possible, and probably in my area, that the # of tennis players stays the same or grows slightly, but the number of tennis player's who choose to COMPETE has drastically declined.
Past 4.0 Berkeley tournament, last year having 47 in the draw, didn't get enough entries to warrant holding the tournament...less than 7. Yet the courts are as crowded as ever, with new players dropping in daily.
 

Turbo-87

G.O.A.T.
So it seems the costs are coming into play here. Kind of funny because I chose not to enter the tournament because there was only 1 player in 3.5 and I wasn't paying entry and gas for one match. Guilty. :) On the plus side, I could have told all of my friends that I am so good they put me straight in the finals. Haha
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
USTA fees are getting ridiculous to be honest. I pay them but I dont like them.

Tournament fees are what really whacky. There are some tournaments charging as high as $45 per division entry (average is about $35) and even in doubles with no consolation they want big money.
Doubles should be literally HALF the singles price. You have twice as many people on one court and usually you dont get a guaranteed 2 matches via consolation draw.

USTA fees and prices are slowly killing interest from its own members and do nothing to help bring in new people.

In 2005 and 2006 when I started as a 3.0 and tournament fees were ~$20 there were draws of 64 in most tournaments, draw of 32 was small, and major zones had draws 128 (256 one time)!

Membership fee, league fee, fees for sectionals, feels for tournaments, FEES FEES FEES

Yeah, the fees are wacky. Where I live some of the best tournaments are the cheapest ($25), and some of the worst are the most expensive ($48). A tournament I played recently cost $25 - fantastic facility, lots of extras - gatorade, water, bananas, lunch, tshirts. I played 35s and there were 4 people entered. Tournament director chose round robin over single elimination (which most tournaments do when there are 4 players), thus guaranteeing 3 matches!

And (I still laugh at this), I won prize money as runner up in the 35s. The open division of this tournament is a pre-qualifer for a futures event at the same facility later in the summer (the winner gets a spot in the futures draw). It isn't uncommon to have prize money for the open. But, the tournament director said they earmark a certain amount for the open and anything left is distributed among the other divisions. So, I got $30 and the winner got $60 in the 35s. Maybe I can see giving the age group winners a small prize, but the runner up? I had to laugh. So, my entry fee was covered.

Obviously this tournament has some local sponsors, so they can afford to have a lower entry fee. But, they don't have to. Plenty of tournament directors would have enough money from a few sponsors and lower tournament fees, but jack the fees up anyway.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
It would help if they could get the tournaments in during a regular 2 day weekend or play the tournament in the evenings over a week. No one is going to use a vacation day to play a tournament when leagues are so easy to join.
 

cknobman

Legend
It would help if they could get the tournaments in during a regular 2 day weekend or play the tournament in the evenings over a week. No one is going to use a vacation day to play a tournament when leagues are so easy to join.

I just did Friday and know tons of people that do.

I only do this for major zone tournaments thought.

I'm lucky my schedule is flexible so regular tournaments having me play Friday afternoon are not a problem but I do understand how hard it is for those that do not have that luxury.
 

Taxvictim

Semi-Pro
My partner and I signed up for a 3.5 doubles tournament and we got put in 4.0 because only one other team signed up for 3.5. No consolation flight, so we opted to get our $39 entry fee back instead of getting killed in the first round by the number one 4.0 team. This was 2 months ago.
 
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darrinbaker00

Professional
USTA fees are getting ridiculous to be honest. I pay them but I dont like them.

Tournament fees are what really whacky. There are some tournaments charging as high as $45 per division entry (average is about $35) and even in doubles with no consolation they want big money.
Doubles should be literally HALF the singles price. You have twice as many people on one court and usually you dont get a guaranteed 2 matches via consolation draw.

USTA fees and prices are slowly killing interest from its own members and do nothing to help bring in new people.

In 2005 and 2006 when I started as a 3.0 and tournament fees were ~$20 there were draws of 64 in most tournaments, draw of 32 was small, and major zones had draws 128 (256 one time)!

Membership fee, league fee, fees for sectionals, feels for tournaments, FEES FEES FEES
How did you think the USTA was going to pay for the roofs they're building on Ashe and Armstrong?
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Hi Darrin...
How's things going? Haven't seen you at the courts this past year. Are you still playing regularly? Hope all is well with you.
 

PBODY99

Legend
It seems to me that the USTA promotes Leagues over local tourneys. That pulls the casual player away leading to smaller draws.
 

RetroSpin

Hall of Fame
I resent having to pay both USTA fees and whopping tournament entry fees. Some tournaments in my area are close to $60 with zero amenities and no consolation bracket. I have cut back and will consider not renewing my USTA.
 

gmatheis

Hall of Fame
USTA fees are getting ridiculous to be honest. I pay them but I dont like them.

Tournament fees are what really whacky. There are some tournaments charging as high as $45 per division entry (average is about $35) and even in doubles with no consolation they want big money.
Doubles should be literally HALF the singles price. You have twice as many people on one court and usually you dont get a guaranteed 2 matches via consolation draw.

USTA fees and prices are slowly killing interest from its own members and do nothing to help bring in new people.

In 2005 and 2006 when I started as a 3.0 and tournament fees were ~$20 there were draws of 64 in most tournaments, draw of 32 was small, and major zones had draws 128 (256 one time)!

Membership fee, league fee, fees for sectionals, feels for tournaments, FEES FEES FEES

Just wanted to point out that it's not reasonable to have doubles fee be half of a singles fee. They have to give out two shirts, two meals, twice as many trophies.
 

cknobman

Legend
Just wanted to point out that it's not reasonable to have doubles fee be half of a singles fee. They have to give out two shirts, two meals, twice as many trophies.

I'd understand your point if the tournaments actually gave out shirts or food.

Last 3 USTA tournaments I played gave out nothing with the exception of my major zone giving a small hand towel.

I think that is what burns the most is the fact that on top of the increased fees the tournaments are giving out less and less.

Last 3 years (prior to this year) my major zone had bananas, energy bars, and nuts available for players to eat. This year nothing.

Last year I won my major zone and what did I get? Sure as heck not a trophy. A cheap, crappy, garage sale looking, travel toiletries bag!!!!!!!!!!
 

gmatheis

Hall of Fame
I'd understand your point if the tournaments actually gave out shirts or food.

Last 3 USTA tournaments I played gave out nothing with the exception of my major zone giving a small hand towel.

I think that is what burns the most is the fact that on top of the increased fees the tournaments are giving out less and less.

Last 3 years (prior to this year) my major zone had bananas, energy bars, and nuts available for players to eat. This year nothing.

Last year I won my major zone and what did I get? Sure as heck not a trophy. A cheap, crappy, garage sale looking, travel toiletries bag!!!!!!!!!!

That sucks, maybe I'm spoiled here.

The one tournament I try to make sure I play every year is the Lexus of Greenville at Riverside Tennis Club in Greer,SC because even though it's a bit pricey (about $49) they have bagels in the morning, lunch and dinner on both Friday and Saturday as well as a shirt ( the shirt from a couple years ago is actually my favorite tournament shirt ever ). On top of all that it's a well run tournament and the open division has a 1000 first place prize so it gets some decent players (this year had 2 #1s from Div I schools and a lower level tour player. Was a blast to watch these guys up close.
 

Turbo-87

G.O.A.T.
It really depends on if there are decent sponsors or not. The few I play in don't so you get what you get. It doesn't bother me since I could have wasted my entry fee at the bar and that's not good.
 

HookEmJeff

Semi-Pro
Tournament players are a picky bunch, but I agree with much of what has been said here. I also have a few things to say to both tournament players and the USTA (which, for full disclosure here, I do work for).

1) I think players should really start getting used to adjusted formats for tournaments. Honestly, you hear massive differences across the board on this. But it is clear that tournament numbers are dwindling each year, and people are not playing the old two out of three set, multiple matches per weekend in multiple divisions formats. The problem is people have to be willing to change, and thus far it's not happening en masse. What is happening en masse...is people not playing tournaments.

Tournaments are too expensive people say....but players want amenities and officials. Tournament directors and sites are not going to give up their facility to not make money that weekend and put their members out... if only 35 people are going to sign up and play for an event.

The common refrain is players want to play more matches, but then they pull out of back draw matches, which hurts everyone's player experience. Many players do not want to adjust the full third-set formats, and want to play three divisions. There simply is not enough time and court space to accommodate those players, and the number of people willing to do that is shrinking by the day.

2) Tournament directors and venues MUST promote events with more regularity at their places of play/on their websites/social media and be relentless about it. We do a lot of tournament blasts here, but really not a lot of tournament directors take advantage of it, or even bother to ask us to help promote their event. Many tournament directors literally do nothing but put their event on TennisLink and walk away from it, which is a colossal marketing failure on their part. In this day and age of such digital noise, we have to literally be bombarded with messaging to make the slightest decision to happen. Consistent communication is essential.

When was the last time you had some city employee at a public tennis center ask you if you were interested in playing at the facility? I grew up and worked at a tennis center in Austin, Texas while in college and I guarantee you the director there made it very clear to us that we were to gather information on our players and communicate with them consistently. Ask them about events, leagues, tournaments, other play opportunities. I go to several public facilities here in Phoenix, and the people working the desk at these facilities NEVER ask about stuff like this. The tennis community is small enough everywhere and a little personal interaction and touch goes a long way. Bumps on logs are how many of these guys behind the desk are at clubs. I've seen this be the case literally everywhere in America.

3) TennisLink software is really behind the time for today's needs. One thing I would really like to see is a tiered pricing system, that increases in cost to tournament players the closer it gets to the tournament entry deadline. Running events and many races across the country are like this, and they don't get nearly the number of late entries we get for tennis events.

If you know far enough out that you will be entering, the price break and motivation for early entry should be a reason enough to enter a ways out. Right now, I could enter a tournament like the Fiesta Bowl in December here in Scottsdale today...four months out....for the exactsame price as the guy who hits the button at 11:59 a minute before entry. I think that is a monster deterrent to participation.

Why? Because everyone waits and waits and waits and never do they sign up early enough to start getting some buzz and momentum around a tournament. We have many events where literally half the entries come in on the last day. That is really hard for tournament directors to plan for, but more than anything it hurts the field playing an event more when they look in their division and see no one on Saturday the week before, and then forget about it...then the draw actually made out okay. I see this time and time again. I would encourage everyone to just enter tournaments you're interested in right away. You can always hit the withdrawal button before the entry date closes, and all you're out is the TennisLink fee.

One thing I'd also love for the tournament management software to be able to do is create like a tickler button for those interested in a tournament. Let's say I want to play a tournament in Tucson in November. I'd love it if it put it on my watch list, and then sent me like an app notification or email notification the week before entries closed. Something like "dear tournament player, you had expressed interest in the Tennis 123 Open in Tucson. Entries close this Friday, so don't delay, enter now". Those would be nice reminders that all of us could use!

4) Tournaments really have to find ways to keep people around the tournament and not leave the site. It creates a more festive environment when there are nice crowds. That also attracts sponsors and vendors.

I have recently been in favor of flighting adult tournaments similar to a USTA league championship. Say it's a seven person draw in an event like Men's 4.0 singles or Women's 35 singles....maybe split it in a three and four pool. Top seed gets the three side, so he/she plays two matches to get to the final to play the opposite side. Everyone gets at least two guaranteed matches, and people have a reason to stay around the event. Better yet, more play!!!

Definitely need to keep the atmosphere more lively, more social (more beer!). One of my friends runs tournaments where he has what he calls the "losers consolation" cooler. You win, you keep playing. You lose, you get a beer. It's actually pretty humorous and very fun. I love stuff like that.

There's probably so much more I could go into, but I'd end up with carpal tunnel typing it all. Let's keep the discussion rolling.
 

kevrol

Hall of Fame
HookEmJeff, some very good thoughts. I'll just respond to a couple:

3) Completely agree on the tennislink software being behind.

Price breaks for early entry would be great but it would have to be a significant price break to get me to sign up early. Most people like to see there are going to be a good number of players in the draw. I also like to make sure the weather is going to be decent and never know up until a week or so before if there are family obligations that would keep me from playing. It's tough for a family guy/gal to commit a whole weekend to playing tennis.

We're lucky here that our outdoor tourneys are $25 for singles so that is very cheap. For that the winner of each division gets a prize (trophy). There's pizza served Saturday and only one official onsite so the costs to the tourney director are minimal. A private club here just tried to host a tourney as well but their price point was $45 for singles. As you can imagine they had so few people register they had to cancel it.

4) The idea of flights is intriguing but I just don't see that being feasible. Right now I already see loads of people withdrawing from the consolation bracket as soon as they lose and lots of withdrawals due to injury in the main draws. At least with bracket tournament those withdrawals only affect the next opponent. If you went to flight play withdrawals would significantly impact everyone.
 

cknobman

Legend
3) TennisLink software is really behind the time for today's needs. One thing I would really like to see is a tiered pricing system, that increases in cost to tournament players the closer it gets to the tournament entry deadline. Running events and many races across the country are like this, and they don't get nearly the number of late entries we get for tennis events.

If you know far enough out that you will be entering, the price break and motivation for early entry should be a reason enough to enter a ways out. Right now, I could enter a tournament like the Fiesta Bowl in December here in Scottsdale today...four months out....for the exactsame price as the guy who hits the button at 11:59 a minute before entry. I think that is a monster deterrent to participation.

Why? Because everyone waits and waits and waits and never do they sign up early enough to start getting some buzz and momentum around a tournament. We have many events where literally half the entries come in on the last day. That is really hard for tournament directors to plan for, but more than anything it hurts the field playing an event more when they look in their division and see no one on Saturday the week before, and then forget about it...then the draw actually made out okay. I see this time and time again. I would encourage everyone to just enter tournaments you're interested in right away. You can always hit the withdrawal button before the entry date closes, and all you're out is the TennisLink fee.

One thing I'd also love for the tournament management software to be able to do is create like a tickler button for those interested in a tournament. Let's say I want to play a tournament in Tucson in November. I'd love it if it put it on my watch list, and then sent me like an app notification or email notification the week before entries closed. Something like "dear tournament player, you had expressed interest in the Tennis 123 Open in Tucson. Entries close this Friday, so don't delay, enter now". Those would be nice reminders that all of us could use!

One of the best points I've ever seen made and could not agree more.
I know from my own experience that I don't register early for tournaments because I want to make sure the draw size will be large enough to interest me and there is no early signup incentive. So I (and many of my friends) am the type that waits until the very last hour available to register. I am looking to see who else registers before I do.
Sometimes I forget to register and miss out on a tournament I would have long before registered for just because something happens and those last few hours of registration I am busy with something else.

I usually have my tennis schedule mapped out for the year so if there were incentives I would be registering for tournaments months in advance to get a discount (much like I do for my runs).

USTA is very stubborn and non cooperative as well. I am a software developer and get very frustrated with how outdated Tennislink was and still is. Back in 2011 I tried to get USTA to work with me and let me build things for them FOR FREE.
They refused to work with me or use any of my suggestions.

Heck you still cannot save your TennisLink searches for quick access later which is something that I feel is a basic necessity.
Fortunately the old mobile site I created still lets me do that :) (have not updated it in years but it still works) http://ustamobileaccess.azurewebsites.net/
 

tennisnj

Professional
$38-$60+ on average for a single elimination USTA singles tournament around here (Eastern) with draws of 8 on average in which you know probably 3 of the people other than yourself playing just isn't worth it. Especially when there are very few tournaments actually in North Jersey. Many people here would rather play pickup matches at their local town courts & get just a good match regardless of level. Many people find the non-USTA tournaments which are always cheaper, offer some incentive for playing (free food, prizes, raffles, trophies, etc.,) & just as, if not more competitive.
 

DirtBaller4

Rookie
The early entry idea is a good one! Maybe sign up for 3 tournaments at once and get fourth free.


I hate it when everyone signs up the night before!
 

dgold44

G.O.A.T.
It seems majority of people prefer USTA leagues over ratings tournament. I could be wrong but that is what I see.
 

shazbot

Semi-Pro
In my area, most of the 4.0 tournaments have a lot of 3.5's playing up. Some matches are not very competitive, if they run into true 4.0's.
 

tenniscasey

Semi-Pro
Great thread.

I don't play as many tournaments as I used to, mostly because tournament draws always post so late, and I can't keep entire weekends clear for tennis. My section has a rule about when draws must be published, but the rule is routinely ignored.

For the amount tournaments cost, I expect much better customer service than what USTA tournaments deliver.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
One of my friends who took 3 years to finally get out of 3.5 into 4.0 play told me that tons of 4.0's play down to 3.5, for trophy collecting, sandbagging, cherry pickin, or whatever.
He's been an official "4.0" now, USTA, for 3 full years. He has yet to win 1 game a set against me, so always bagels. I"m a low 4.0.
 

DuckServe

New User
they bumped too many 3.5s to 4.0 in Norcal because Gregg Roberts (SF) and Akash Zavari won the nationals twice in the last few years.

Both captains have 3.5s that can easily beat low 4.5s.

How do they do it, I have no idea. It takes a lot of work.
 

Alchemy-Z

Hall of Fame
same here for us = most of the former 3.5's are now 4.0's and we haven't really had any new tennis blood in 4 or 5 years so 3.0 league is almost obsolete and the 3.5 league 18+ is down to 4 teams and those on the 18+ teams only I think 5 are under 40? I am considered "The Kid" on my team at 35
 

Turbo-87

G.O.A.T.
What you have all said makes sense. Even numbers at the club are going down each year. In our Sunday night club league that ranges from 3.0 to 4.0 we lose people yearly and there is no new blood coming in. It used to be 5 courts and now we are down to 4 courts with three subs on the fourth court every week just to have breathing bodies. Kind of sad.
 

NTRPolice

Hall of Fame
There seems to have been a ratings inflation. League levels and tournaments that used to prosper are almost un/underrepresented. This probably means players are dropping, and the players who are playing for life are moving up. What USTA needs to do is purge inactive accounts because I have a feeling that playing a lot is going to make you move up since many ratings of the casual level (3.0-4.0) are no longer earning/losing points because they are inactive.

There is a player here who is now a 3.5 who should be a 2.5. I dont wanna knock the guy, but the guy is recovering from a stroke and is playing tennis as part of his PT. He started as a 2.5 and was ok there, but as a 3.5 I dont think he's going to have a very good time. The last thing id want is for him to quit playing tennis because he's getting beat up at an inflated level, especially since he's doing it for PT and nothing else.
 

cknobman

Legend
There seems to have been a ratings inflation. League levels and tournaments that used to prosper are almost un/underrepresented. This probably means players are dropping, and the players who are playing for life are moving up. What USTA needs to do is purge inactive accounts because I have a feeling that playing a lot is going to make you move up since many ratings of the casual level (3.0-4.0) are no longer earning/losing points because they are inactive.

There is a player here who is now a 3.5 who should be a 2.5. I dont wanna knock the guy, but the guy is recovering from a stroke and is playing tennis as part of his PT. He started as a 2.5 and was ok there, but as a 3.5 I dont think he's going to have a very good time. The last thing id want is for him to quit playing tennis because he's getting beat up at an inflated level, especially since he's doing it for PT and nothing else.

How did you come up with this logic?????
Your rating is determined directly from the opponents you actually play. Inactive players have absolutely no bearing on ratings whatsoever.

If you are referring to rankings, as in the ranking you get from tournaments, those are completely separate from your rating.
 

NTRPolice

Hall of Fame
How did you come up with this logic?????
Your rating is determined directly from the opponents you actually play. Inactive players have absolutely no bearing on ratings whatsoever.

If you are referring to rankings, as in the ranking you get from tournaments, those are completely separate from your rating.

How on earth did you come up with this logic?...

Three examples:

1) I come in as a self rated 3.5 sandbagger and you're playing up to 3.5 as a weak 3.0. I see that you're weak so I give up a set because im "managing". I then go on to play at nationals and as a result get a YER of 4.5 because we won. Your YE rating is compared to mine, and since you got a set off me, you're now bumped to high in the 3.5 range, when if you hadnt played me youd still be a 3.0.

I quit and never play again. I am now an inactive player. Your appeals will not take into consideration that I havnt played for 5 years.

2) I'm a 2.5 rated player. When I started tennis 10 years ago there were 40 teams in my area who were 2.5's. For 8 years I played and did "even" so im still a 2.5 player. The last 2 years there are no longer any 2.5 players in my area so I have to play 3.0. I play and I lose way more than I win. I'm now forced to be bumped to 3.0 even though I have not improved at all in the last 10 years.

My rating does not take into account the fact that 2.5 league is dead, and even though im a 2.5, im forced to "get points" against 3.0's even for losses because there are no longer any 2.5's to play. I'm bumped to 3.0 even though i've established my legitimate 2.5 rating over 8 years, but cannot hold it anymore because they are all inactive.

And before you think these are outrageous examples, even 3.5 league is getting dry here. 2.5/5.0 practically doesnt even exist. 3.0/6.0 are dry. 3.5 is getting to where 3.0 used to be in terms of participation. 7.0 is still ok, but that's because so many people are 4.0's now, and they're bringing in fresh 3.0's who only play the combo leagues.

Edit:

So what was my "solution" or what did I mean my saying: "What USTA needs to do is purge inactive accounts because I have a feeling that playing a lot is going to make you move up since many ratings of the casual level (3.0-4.0) are no longer earning/losing points because they are inactive."

There is a history of everyone you played, what level you played them at, and what the year end results were. Account's that are inactive for more than a year for any particular league (Adult 18/40/55/65, Mixed, ect) should have a retroactive effect on someones rating that they came into contact this. This isnt to say that the results should be nullified, but I am trying to say that it should at least be considered in some way to help establish ratings a bit better since not everyone is trying to sandbag. There could be rating "credits" given, so that your rating is affected a little softer in the future if you have played against now inactive accounts. There could be restrictions too, so that your NTRP rating cant actually become immune to change, or cannot go up/down a level off of "credits", but the point is that there is nothing in place currently to help account for being rated against inactive players when you're an active player yourself.

A lot of rating systems have a "player activity" adjustment to help control inflation.
 
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cknobman

Legend
@NTRPolice I think you are flawed in how you understand the USTA rating system.

I will call on @schmke for his expert advice as I could be wrong as well.

BUT

The way I understand it is the USTA rating system is dynamic and your rating moves up or down based off your opponent at the time you actually play them.
If I play you in October and your dymanic rating is 3.43 and mine is 3.13 then when our match scores are put in the USTA rating system immediately calculates our new dynamic rating.

That means that if by the end of the year you have been bumped up to 4.5 or have quit or anything else it will have no effect on me whatsoever.
 

Nacho

Hall of Fame
Tournament players are a picky bunch, but I agree with much of what has been said here. I also have a few things to say to both tournament players and the USTA (which, for full disclosure here, I do work for).

1) I think players should really start getting used to adjusted formats for tournaments. Honestly, you hear massive differences across the board on this. But it is clear that tournament numbers are dwindling each year, and people are not playing the old two out of three set, multiple matches per weekend in multiple divisions formats. The problem is people have to be willing to change, and thus far it's not happening en masse. What is happening en masse...is people not playing tournaments.

Tournaments are too expensive people say....but players want amenities and officials. Tournament directors and sites are not going to give up their facility to not make money that weekend and put their members out... if only 35 people are going to sign up and play for an event.

The common refrain is players want to play more matches, but then they pull out of back draw matches, which hurts everyone's player experience. Many players do not want to adjust the full third-set formats, and want to play three divisions. There simply is not enough time and court space to accommodate those players, and the number of people willing to do that is shrinking by the day.

2) Tournament directors and venues MUST promote events with more regularity at their places of play/on their websites/social media and be relentless about it. We do a lot of tournament blasts here, but really not a lot of tournament directors take advantage of it, or even bother to ask us to help promote their event. Many tournament directors literally do nothing but put their event on TennisLink and walk away from it, which is a colossal marketing failure on their part. In this day and age of such digital noise, we have to literally be bombarded with messaging to make the slightest decision to happen. Consistent communication is essential.

When was the last time you had some city employee at a public tennis center ask you if you were interested in playing at the facility? I grew up and worked at a tennis center in Austin, Texas while in college and I guarantee you the director there made it very clear to us that we were to gather information on our players and communicate with them consistently. Ask them about events, leagues, tournaments, other play opportunities. I go to several public facilities here in Phoenix, and the people working the desk at these facilities NEVER ask about stuff like this. The tennis community is small enough everywhere and a little personal interaction and touch goes a long way. Bumps on logs are how many of these guys behind the desk are at clubs. I've seen this be the case literally everywhere in America.

3) TennisLink software is really behind the time for today's needs. One thing I would really like to see is a tiered pricing system, that increases in cost to tournament players the closer it gets to the tournament entry deadline. Running events and many races across the country are like this, and they don't get nearly the number of late entries we get for tennis events.

If you know far enough out that you will be entering, the price break and motivation for early entry should be a reason enough to enter a ways out. Right now, I could enter a tournament like the Fiesta Bowl in December here in Scottsdale today...four months out....for the exactsame price as the guy who hits the button at 11:59 a minute before entry. I think that is a monster deterrent to participation.

Why? Because everyone waits and waits and waits and never do they sign up early enough to start getting some buzz and momentum around a tournament. We have many events where literally half the entries come in on the last day. That is really hard for tournament directors to plan for, but more than anything it hurts the field playing an event more when they look in their division and see no one on Saturday the week before, and then forget about it...then the draw actually made out okay. I see this time and time again. I would encourage everyone to just enter tournaments you're interested in right away. You can always hit the withdrawal button before the entry date closes, and all you're out is the TennisLink fee.

One thing I'd also love for the tournament management software to be able to do is create like a tickler button for those interested in a tournament. Let's say I want to play a tournament in Tucson in November. I'd love it if it put it on my watch list, and then sent me like an app notification or email notification the week before entries closed. Something like "dear tournament player, you had expressed interest in the Tennis 123 Open in Tucson. Entries close this Friday, so don't delay, enter now". Those would be nice reminders that all of us could use!

4) Tournaments really have to find ways to keep people around the tournament and not leave the site. It creates a more festive environment when there are nice crowds. That also attracts sponsors and vendors.

I have recently been in favor of flighting adult tournaments similar to a USTA league championship. Say it's a seven person draw in an event like Men's 4.0 singles or Women's 35 singles....maybe split it in a three and four pool. Top seed gets the three side, so he/she plays two matches to get to the final to play the opposite side. Everyone gets at least two guaranteed matches, and people have a reason to stay around the event. Better yet, more play!!!

Definitely need to keep the atmosphere more lively, more social (more beer!). One of my friends runs tournaments where he has what he calls the "losers consolation" cooler. You win, you keep playing. You lose, you get a beer. It's actually pretty humorous and very fun. I love stuff like that.

There's probably so much more I could go into, but I'd end up with carpal tunnel typing it all. Let's keep the discussion rolling.

Just saw this, and concur with these points. If you really work for the USTA can you comment on any measures that are taking place? I have to say the tournaments feel saturated out there, and the USTA might need to step in and help create some order. Adults seem to like the leagues because they know they will be playing at 4pm on Sunday, every Sunday for a month. Why not set up a tournament this way? If I knew a tournament might be over two weekends I would sign up. But take vacation days? Not unless it was a C-1...Also, many tournaments could maybe be asked to gain some sponsorship or cause. People like this, and it might attract people if they know their fighting for cancer or homeless pets or something. Look at things like Pelitonia or the zillion 5k races out there. This might also attract fans to watch? There also doesn't seem any rhyme or reason to the rankings. Theres a good product out there, it is just left up to too much local option to decide. Maybe in order to get a tournament you have to meet several criteria and have a social media footprint for promotion or something? I am just throwing stuff out there....but there is a big opportunity
 

NTRPolice

Hall of Fame
@NTRPolice I think you are flawed in how you understand the USTA rating system.

I will call on @schmke for his expert advice as I could be wrong as well.

BUT

The way I understand it is the USTA rating system is dynamic and your rating moves up or down based off your opponent at the time you actually play them.
If I play you in October and your dymanic rating is 3.43 and mine is 3.13 then when our match scores are put in the USTA rating system immediately calculates our new dynamic rating.

That means that if by the end of the year you have been bumped up to 4.5 or have quit or anything else it will have no effect on me whatsoever.

YER are half dynamic, half benchmark. The benchmark calculation is used to try to create a standardized level across all sections. The problem, still, is that if someone plays one year and is affected by benchmark, then quits, that still has an effect on all remaining players. It is completely unclear if an inactive persons YER is affected at all by the benchmark calculation. Through observation, I really dont think it does. I mean, they even have all these new rules on what can happen to a rating if you become inactive, based on how old you are, ect.

Think of it this way...

NTRP is not a zero sum system, and even zero sum systems suffer from inflation and inaccurate rating adjustments. Imagine that. So, they try to fix the system of just dynamic NTRP by adding in "benchmarking" but now you have section reps literally playing with ratings at the click of a button.

NTRP YER tries to compensate for different exposures (some players play 100 games, some play 0) by using benchmarking, but I dont think it's enough.
 

HookEmJeff

Semi-Pro
Just saw this, and concur with these points. If you really work for the USTA can you comment on any measures that are taking place? I have to say the tournaments feel saturated out there, and the USTA might need to step in and help create some order. Adults seem to like the leagues because they know they will be playing at 4pm on Sunday, every Sunday for a month. Why not set up a tournament this way? If I knew a tournament might be over two weekends I would sign up. But take vacation days? Not unless it was a C-1...Also, many tournaments could maybe be asked to gain some sponsorship or cause. People like this, and it might attract people if they know their fighting for cancer or homeless pets or something. Look at things like Pelitonia or the zillion 5k races out there. This might also attract fans to watch? There also doesn't seem any rhyme or reason to the rankings. Theres a good product out there, it is just left up to too much local option to decide. Maybe in order to get a tournament you have to meet several criteria and have a social media footprint for promotion or something? I am just throwing stuff out there....but there is a big opportunity

Honestly, we are trying more adjusted format tournaments here in the Southwest. I don't know if a tournament over two weekends has really been tried. If people are having enough problems committing fully to one weekend, the two week thing is even worse.

I agree with the "cause" type tournaments and it is something I've suggested. I recently picked up a dog from a homeless shelter and have been considering working with the group I got mine from for a benefit fundraiser tennis event/adoption day. We adopted a surface Slam series event here in the Southwest a few years ago, to try to entice people to play....so we created an indoor, grass and hard court event. We also made them our highest ranking points events. Venue is key. People want to play at a nice place. We've also tried to institute a mandatory food amenity (lunch or player social -that's coming in 2016 for all of our major events). We're trying really hard to teach our tournament directors that they have to do more publicity type things to have people know about these events.

Sponsors - like anyone dropping money - want a return on investment. It's very hard to entice or attract a sponsor with the small numbers drawing in many local tournaments. I'd honestly rather us cut back a bit on the schedule an spend considerably more time promoting 8-10 real major tournaments a year, ones where 400+ people attend, where a sponsor might actually be able to come out, talk to all the players. Some of these tournament sizes literally are 30-45 people. Why would a company want to give money to that? We have to increase draw sizes to really entice sponsors.

But if you can't take half a day off on a Friday or get off on a Thursday night a bit early to play, it's hard to increase numbers...so players have to be realistic. I mean no way can an event be a happening (lots of players, lots of draws, energy, enthusiasm) if people can only play in one time window. Which...is probably why people play league tennis more regularly.

Honestly, I'd say so much of this comes down to player interest in an event. I hear people complaining all the time that they can't play if an event can't be scheduled around their time. That's fine if some of those things can be taken into account before draws are made. But a tournament director can't plan an event around 100 inflexible schedules. I see a LOT of people complaining about it once the event has started. Honestly, if you're playing multiple events and doing well in an event, you're NOT going to have a weekend, so just forget it. Bagging on back draws also sucks for many players, who were just looking to get that extra bit of value and another match for their money.

Also, if you're a business or a sponsor, contact your section's marketing person and tell them you know people with pockets that would like to help. I'd love to have night time concerts, full on BBQs, you name it.
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
One of the best points I've ever seen made and could not agree more.
I know from my own experience that I don't register early for tournaments because I want to make sure the draw size will be large enough to interest me and there is no early signup incentive. So I (and many of my friends) am the type that waits until the very last hour available to register. I am looking to see who else registers before I do.
Sometimes I forget to register and miss out on a tournament I would have long before registered for just because something happens and those last few hours of registration I am busy with something else.

I usually have my tennis schedule mapped out for the year so if there were incentives I would be registering for tournaments months in advance to get a discount (much like I do for my runs).

USTA is very stubborn and non cooperative as well. I am a software developer and get very frustrated with how outdated Tennislink was and still is. Back in 2011 I tried to get USTA to work with me and let me build things for them FOR FREE.
They refused to work with me or use any of my suggestions.

Heck you still cannot save your TennisLink searches for quick access later which is something that I feel is a basic necessity.
Fortunately the old mobile site I created still lets me do that :) (have not updated it in years but it still works) http://ustamobileaccess.azurewebsites.net/

Late entry is a huge problem where I live as well. Everyone is waiting to see who else signs up. Sometimes I tell myself to be the pioneer and sign up early so someone will see my name. Early entry price break is one option. Or, maybe even just an "intent" list somewhere on the tournament page. Players would be able to put their name on the the list without paying (sort of like your wishlist on Amazon), showing that they might play. I could provide some incentive for others to sign up.
 

NTRPolice

Hall of Fame
Late entry is a huge problem where I live as well. Everyone is waiting to see who else signs up. Sometimes I tell myself to be the pioneer and sign up early so someone will see my name. Early entry price break is one option. Or, maybe even just an "intent" list somewhere on the tournament page. Players would be able to put their name on the the list without paying (sort of like your wishlist on Amazon), showing that they might play. I could provide some incentive for others to sign up.

Late entry is a problem everywhere. The thing is, most Tournament directors do not add names of players who are not registered through Tennislink until the very end, about the time the bracket is being drawn. Here, a lot of the tournament entries are not displayed until immediately before the tournament.

It's quite common to see 5 people in one "bracket", then 12 hours before the tournament see the addition of players that quadruples the number of entries because they have been entered in through other channels, such as mail entries, email entries, sponsor entries, and seeding. A lot of seeded entries are not entered through tennislink here. There might be 20 teams in the main draw qualifier, but in the main draw there are already 10 teams. So, you're actually in a pool of 30 teams that you can see, and only if you investigate one level further, and you havnt even "qualified" yet, and all entries entered through other channels are not even yet displayed.
 
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