Deep thoughts on my Serve... or how a big hitter came to love the SLICE

Finally, I realized (after over 10 years of stupidity) that the SLICE serve is so important.
1) it makes good players with quick reactions have to move their feet so they can't just tee off even on a 120mph serve. <serve has not been timed so it could be 105... all i know is they don't come back when I am grooving>
2) it makes the hard one even more effective because it the returner doesn't always know it is coming.
3) with the slice serve you can really take pace off the ball and the short 60mph slice feels even more demoralizing to the opponent when they are aced by it
4) even if my toss for my slice is still a little noticeable, the ability to slice out wide or have it come into the body leaves people jammed and unable to complete a swing and it ends up hitting them right in the gut
5) on the ad side, i have a big kick serve which allows me to utilize all areas of the service box and many times i can get 2nd serve aces by either slicing it down the T or hitting the kicker and the returner who has been yelled at by his partner to watch the slice down the T is frozen because they forgot about the kicker!
My serve has been lethal lately now that I've started incorporating the slice.
I have a 4.0 groundstroke game, 3.5 volley and overhead game, but now my serve is almost 5.0 level!
The slice takes less effort, makes me more thoughtful about the points, and should extend my playing career by 30yrs(?) when I can no longer blast it.

I feel like I have a lot of options on the ad side.
1) hard down the T
2) hard body serve
3) hard out wide
4) slice T
5) kicker out wide

Deuce side
1) hard down T
2) hard body
3) slice out wide
4) slice body
5) i have a topspin 2nd serve that sort of goes to the T but isn't that great

i also think i have practiced 75% on the ad side because I had been developing my kicker which has made all of those ad serves stronger and higher percentage than the comparable deuce serve.
in fact i think my only good deuce serves are the slices.
playing up to 4.5 level opponents I have been tearing them up lately on my serve and it feels great!
although i played a 5.0+ guy who had ZERO problems returning my serve especially on the deuce side... so i know it isn't anything TOO special. :(
but for my local leagues my serve is a real weapon.

If my slice is slicing very much and getting hammered back or if it goes too far wide on the deuce side I quickly feel like all I've got is to go for big flat serves. So I have been thinking WHAT ELSE can I do?
Recently I've found people trying to figure out my serve by standing 8ft behind baseline so I have been adding in the occasional underhand serve. The look on people's faces is hilarious, I must admit after the first one. In doubles they look at their partner as if to say "please, tell him we weren't ready or to replay the point because its cheating.. anything!" but the partners so far have said "ok, you got us..." and it just kind of feels like the box of "anything goes" has been opened. It started as a joke and maybe a little bit because of a toe injury made me not want to put effort into more serves.. but the effectiveness has shocked me. After the first one... all i have to do is hunch over a little bit like I might do the underhand and people no longer back up. Then I can either hit a normal serve or sometimes I feel like since I have shown them the UH serve already that I can mix it in whenever now. It gets a little addicting and I start playing this mental game from that point on.

But part of me feels a little restricted as to options on the deuce side compared to the ad side. Being right handed, i utilize a much bigger area of the court by being able to slice it down the T and it swerves 5ft into the deuce court... or kick it wide and it kicks 5ft past the alley.
on the deuce side it feels like i have half the space.
i suppose the answer to this question is i just need to keep practicing my topspin serve down the T and that should be good enough. the 5.0+ guy i played against in doubles just hit hard kicks to my backhand every time on the deuce side. The first few I hit into the net and eventually I was getting them back in play but the point was neutral at best and his volleys and movement were so good that I won very few points even after hitting an ok return crosscourt.
I have a feeling he would tell me I was overthinking the serve! I have heard him tell many kids he coaches... the serve doesn't need to be fast it just needs to not be attackable!

So this is the end of my DEEP THOUGHTS on my SERVE.
I suppose if I had to respond to this myself I would say:

1. Hit the practice courts on the Deuce side.
a. practice with purpose
1. 20 topspin T serves
2. 20 flat T serves
3. 10 wide slice serves
4. 10 body slice serves

If i do that, I won't need the underhand junk at all and I can then do some clinics to raise my volleys and overheads before turning pro. lol

Thanks for listening... not sure whether to delete or post. But what the heck... posting my thoughts on my own game. I'd love to hear your feedback.
I've been resting the past 2 weeks because the pain in my big toes has gotten to be too much. I don't know if it is gout or stress fracture or probably hallux rigidus.
.. but I really push off on my serve so I am not surprised it hurts. I was really playing well right before I stopped to rest/ice my feet. So I hope it isn't anything serious and I can continue to play. I'm 44y/o so if it doesn't heal up I guess I'll be utilizing the slice exclusively and just playing crap 3.5 old man lob doubles.

oh one note is how now I see big strong guys show up at the court and they hit every shot really hard and double fault more than a few times and all i can do is chuckle to myself. but i want to cry too because that was me for 10 years. you know that guy thinks he is awesome at tennis because he hits the occasional huge ace but he actually loses most of his matches in his 3.5 ladder. :oops::(:confused::eek:
also makes me wonder what other aspects of tennis i've yet to get a clue about!
the journey of tennis... it is a long and winding road!
The End
 
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5263

G.O.A.T.
Finally, I realized (after over 10 years of stupidity) that the SLICE serve is so important.

oh one note is how now I see big strong guys show up at the court and they hit every shot really hard and double fault more than a few times and all i can do is chuckle to myself. but i want to cry too because that was me for 10 years. you know that guy thinks he is awesome at tennis because he hits the occasional huge ace but he actually loses most of his matches in his 3.5 ladder. :oops::(:confused::eek:
also makes me wonder what other aspects of tennis i've yet to get a clue about!
the journey of tennis... it is a long and winding road!
The End
Great post and thanks for sharing. I think you will enjoy the game more than ever now that you have firmly placed yourself on this journey of discovery. I still remember my first big insight that changed everything for me and put me on the same path you are now enjoying.
I also remember a teammate/coach on one of my ALTA teams trying to teach me how to drag the racket properly. I actually think I might have learned it from him if he had been a bit better with his explanations, but since I could beat him, it made it much harder for me to listen, along with how unnatural it felt in the beginning.
Thanks to another high level instructor I finally made the change later, but it also took my "trending" approach to finally make the change over.
 

SinjinCooper

Hall of Fame
Kinda skimmed it.

W/r/t your lament about having more options on the ad side: those are compensated for by a couple factors. Namely that your flat/hard topper down the T on the deuce side is much closer to your service position, and over a much lower part of the net. Meaning it gets there a whole lot faster even if you don't hit it harder...but you can also hit it harder! Likewise, your sweeping hook out wide has just about infinite space to play with, which can result in bargeloads of aces and/or huge tracts of open land for you to work with after the return, usually to your opponent's weaker wing. Yahtzee!

In other words: though your options may be fewer, they're also better. Enjoy.

If you want a nasty third option to throw now and then, use that kicker you say you can muster to chase them wide on the ad side and fire it tight to their forehand on the deuce side. A decent kicker that jumps up and into the body is filthy, especially if hit in combination with lots of hard stuff to the corners. Come in behind that sucker once in a while as a surprise. Get it tight, and it's almost impossible to hit much of a threatening return off of.
 

meltphace 6

Hall of Fame
Kinda skimmed it.

W/r/t your lament about having more options on the ad side: those are compensated for by a couple factors. Namely that your flat/hard topper down the T on the deuce side is much closer to your service position, and over a much lower part of the net. Meaning it gets there a whole lot faster even if you don't hit it harder...but you can also hit it harder! Likewise, your sweeping hook out wide has just about infinite space to play with, which can result in bargeloads of aces and/or huge tracts of open land for you to work with after the return, usually to your opponent's weaker wing. Yahtzee!

In other words: though your options may be fewer, they're also better. Enjoy.

If you want a nasty third option to throw now and then, use that kicker you say you can muster to chase them wide on the ad side and fire it tight to their forehand on the deuce side. A decent kicker that jumps up and into the body is filthy, especially if hit in combination with lots of hard stuff to the corners. Come in behind that sucker once in a while as a surprise. Get it tight, and it's almost impossible to hit much of a threatening return off of.
Dig your poasts. Keep it up.
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
Really Super extra spin Slice serve is very very effective on deuce and Ad court. on deuce court you can even hit it with only moderate Pace and still be very effective, and often opponents will misjudge the amount of slice on it and mishit the ball. and We all seen Gasquet on Ad court with super Slice serve that bends away up the middle and ends up in way deuce side....
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
Finally, I realized (after over 10 years of stupidity) that the SLICE serve is so important.
1) it makes good players with quick reactions have to move their feet so they can't just tee off even on a 120mph serve. <serve has not been timed so it could be 105... all i know is they don't come back when I am grooving>
2) it makes the hard one even more effective because it the returner doesn't always know it is coming.
3) with the slice serve you can really take pace off the ball and the short 60mph slice feels even more demoralizing to the opponent when they are aced by it
4) even if my toss for my slice is still a little noticeable, the ability to slice out wide or have it come into the body leaves people jammed and unable to complete a swing and it ends up hitting them right in the gut
5) on the ad side, i have a big kick serve which allows me to utilize all areas of the service box and many times i can get 2nd serve aces by either slicing it down the T or hitting the kicker and the returner who has been yelled at by his partner to watch the slice down the T is frozen because they forgot about the kicker!
My serve has been lethal lately now that I've started incorporating the slice.
I have a 4.0 groundstroke game, 3.5 volley and overhead game, but now my serve is almost 5.0 level!
The slice takes less effort, makes me more thoughtful about the points, and should extend my playing career by 30yrs(?) when I can no longer blast it.

I feel like I have a lot of options on the ad side.
1) hard down the T
2) hard body serve
3) hard out wide
4) slice T
5) kicker out wide

Deuce side
1) hard down T
2) hard body
3) slice out wide
4) slice body
5) i have a topspin 2nd serve that sort of goes to the T but isn't that great

i also think i have practiced 75% on the ad side because I had been developing my kicker which has made all of those ad serves stronger and higher percentage than the comparable deuce serve.
in fact i think my only good deuce serves are the slices.
playing up to 4.5 level opponents I have been tearing them up lately on my serve and it feels great!
although i played a 5.0+ guy who had ZERO problems returning my serve especially on the deuce side... so i know it isn't anything TOO special. :(
but for my local leagues my serve is a real weapon.

If my slice is slicing very much and getting hammered back or if it goes too far wide on the deuce side I quickly feel like all I've got is to go for big flat serves. So I have been thinking WHAT ELSE can I do?
Recently I've found people trying to figure out my serve by standing 8ft behind baseline so I have been adding in the occasional underhand serve. The look on people's faces is hilarious, I must admit after the first one. In doubles they look at their partner as if to say "please, tell him we weren't ready or to replay the point because its cheating.. anything!" but the partners so far have said "ok, you got us..." and it just kind of feels like the box of "anything goes" has been opened. It started as a joke and maybe a little bit because of a toe injury made me not want to put effort into more serves.. but the effectiveness has shocked me. After the first one... all i have to do is hunch over a little bit like I might do the underhand and people no longer back up. Then I can either hit a normal serve or sometimes I feel like since I have shown them the UH serve already that I can mix it in whenever now. It gets a little addicting and I start playing this mental game from that point on.

But part of me feels a little restricted as to options on the deuce side compared to the ad side. Being right handed, i utilize a much bigger area of the court by being able to slice it down the T and it swerves 5ft into the deuce court... or kick it wide and it kicks 5ft past the alley.
on the deuce side it feels like i have half the space.
i suppose the answer to this question is i just need to keep practicing my topspin serve down the T and that should be good enough. the 5.0+ guy i played against in doubles just hit hard kicks to my backhand every time on the deuce side. The first few I hit into the net and eventually I was getting them back in play but the point was neutral at best and his volleys and movement were so good that I won very few points even after hitting an ok return crosscourt.
I have a feeling he would tell me I was overthinking the serve! I have heard him tell many kids he coaches... the serve doesn't need to be fast it just needs to not be attackable!

So this is the end of my DEEP THOUGHTS on my SERVE.
I suppose if I had to respond to this myself I would say:

1. Hit the practice courts on the Deuce side.
a. practice with purpose
1. 20 topspin T serves
2. 20 flat T serves
3. 10 wide slice serves
4. 10 body slice serves

If i do that, I won't need the underhand junk at all and I can then do some clinics to raise my volleys and overheads before turning pro. lol

Thanks for listening... not sure whether to delete or post. But what the heck... posting my thoughts on my own game. I'd love to hear your feedback.
I've been resting the past 2 weeks because the pain in my big toes has gotten to be too much. I don't know if it is gout or stress fracture or probably hallux rigidus.
.. but I really push off on my serve so I am not surprised it hurts. I was really playing well right before I stopped to rest/ice my feet. So I hope it isn't anything serious and I can continue to play. I'm 44y/o so if it doesn't heal up I guess I'll be utilizing the slice exclusively and just playing crap 3.5 old man lob doubles.

oh one note is how now I see big strong guys show up at the court and they hit every shot really hard and double fault more than a few times and all i can do is chuckle to myself. but i want to cry too because that was me for 10 years. you know that guy thinks he is awesome at tennis because he hits the occasional huge ace but he actually loses most of his matches in his 3.5 ladder. :oops::(:confused::eek:
also makes me wonder what other aspects of tennis i've yet to get a clue about!
the journey of tennis... it is a long and winding road!
The End
Yeah bro. When my opponents are teeing off on my 120 mph kick serves, I usually throw in a 105 mph slice as a change up. I mean, I haven't timed them or anything, but I'm sure those speeds accurate and stuff.

 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
Finally, I realized (after over 10 years of stupidity) that the SLICE serve is so important.

I have a 4.0 groundstroke game, 3.5 volley and overhead game, but now my serve is almost 5.0 level!
The slice takes less effort, makes me more thoughtful about the points, and should extend my playing career by 30yrs(?) when I can no longer blast it.

I'm 44y/o
If you want to improve the rest of your game, I'd recommend lessons from Brent Abel. Well worth what he charges, especially for the volley, slice, Serve & Volley, half volley, overhead, and doubles stuff. I loved his lessons on slice and kick serve too (but I like Bolletteri videos for groundstrokes and "Sonic Serve").

By the way, my story is similar to yours and I'm exactly your age as well.
 
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Yeah bro. When my opponents are teeing off on my 120 mph kick serves, I usually throw in a 105 mph slice as a change up. I mean, I haven't timed them or anything, but I'm sure those speeds accurate and stuff.

Thanks for the tip!
Hey it's the internet so you don't have to believe anything I say. I guarantee it's over 110mph (flat..Not kick bozo) and one guy I regularly play against stands 5ft inside the baseline against everybody and if it goes to his forehand...He can crush it back harder than you served it. Not sure how he does it either because it is not a compact stroke he uses. Anyway, yes, I play against many guys that can handle 120mph if it is not placed well.
Most would probably block it back but as I said this guy will rip it. A 75mph kicker to his backhand works much better than a huge flat one if it doesn't paint the T.
Carry on....
 

DavidGibson

New User
Really? I would use my topspin serve to get it over the net.. if that was a problem I was having.
A flat serve is the lowest percentage serve. Slice increases net clearance. At the rec level none of this matters because rec players generally haven't learned how to execute any of the different serves.
 

SinjinCooper

Hall of Fame
The very best reason to hit slice is to get the ball over the net.
A thing I like a lot about the slice is that depending on how you choose to approach it, it can be a whole lot easier on the body than any other serve. Toss it out to the right a little more, and you lose disguise and options, and it's probably not a great elite-level weapon any more. But it can still be a very good serve, and you can keep hitting it that way for decades after dedicated kick servers have to hang up their racquets.

That's one of the things I've learned from watching Powershares matches. Even elite pro servers move the ball out to the right (left for McEnroe) more and more if they want to stay on the court as they get older. It's really noticible if you can dig up more recent Edberg clips. Almost every serve he hits these days has much more slice element than he did as a pro. Mac hits essentially nothing but slice serves, still with a ton of variety. At a certain point, it's all about saving your back.

It's kind of inspiring.
 
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D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
Great post and thanks for sharing. I think you will enjoy the game more than ever now that you have firmly placed yourself on this journey of discovery. I still remember my first big insight that changed everything for me and put me on the same path you are now enjoying.
I also remember a teammate/coach on one of my ALTA teams trying to teach me how to drag the racket properly. I actually think I might have learned it from him if he had been a bit better with his explanations, but since I could beat him, it made it much harder for me to listen, along with how unnatural it felt in the beginning.
Thanks to another high level instructor I finally made the change later, but it also took my "trending" approach to finally make the change over.
good post.

in general i try to approach serving like a baseball pitcher... need to hit my targets around the box (fh/bh/body; deep/short), need to mix up pace (fast/slightly slower), need to mix up spin (slice/flat/kick)
the other BIG (to me) key point is not to try to go for strikes (ie. aces - because I tend to miss more when i go for lines, uncontrollable speed, etc....), i want my opponent to swing and hit it, but result in a foul (out), or popup (short ball) - by making him guess/uncomfortable/etc...
my serve is now a setup shot (vs. an outright tool to hit winners). aces are just a happy accident that hit the line (i presume all balls on the line will be called out anyway - keeps me happier, and more sane, and willing to continue playing tennis).

part of this revelation came when i got bumped to 4.5... everyone (4.5+) can handle my "big" serve if it wasn't place well and/or had a randomized quality, so it was no longer a given that going for my "big" serve would result in a free point... more often it was just easily blocked back deep (ie. it was predictable), and the point is started on neutral ground (vs. me with an advantage to start dictating)
 
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r2473

G.O.A.T.
in general i try to approach serving like a baseball pitcher... need to hit my targets around the box (fh/bh/body; deep/short), need to mix up pace (fast/slightly slower), need to mix up spin (slice/flat/kick)

the other BIG (to me) key point is not to try to go for strikes (ie. aces - because I tend to miss more when i go for lines, uncontrollable speed, etc....), i want my opponent to swing and hit it, but result in a foul (out), or popup (short ball) - by making him guess/uncomfortable/etc...
my serve is now a setup shot (vs. an outright tool to hit winners)
Agree. I almost never go for an ace.

I most often hit body serves. Easiest for me to get in and requires my opponent to move in a way that is most uncomfortable for him. Most everyone can move to a ball out wide. But most everyone struggles getting out of the way of the ball and creating space to make an effective return off of a body serve. Mix up the spin (flat, top, slice), and I find it to be a very effective and high percentage strategy (I don't miss).
 
D

Deleted member 120290

Guest
A thing I like a lot about the slice is that depending on how you choose to approach it, it can be a whole lot easier on the body than any other serve. Toss it out to the right a little more, and you lose disguise and options, and it's probably not a great elite-level weapon any more. But it can still be a very good serve, and you can keep hitting it that way for decades after dedicated kick servers have to hang up their racquets.

That's one of the things I've learned from watching Powershares matches. Even elite pro servers move the ball out to the right (left for McEnroe) more and more if they want to stay on the court as they get older. It's really noticible if you can dig up more recent Edberg clips. Almost every serve he hits these days has much more slice element than he did as a pro. Mac hits essentially nothing but slice serves, still with a ton of variety. At a certain point, it's all about saving your back.

It's kind of inspiring.
Slice serve is easier on the body for sure. Missing a flat 1st serve and then hitting a kick 2nd serve takes a lot out of the body over a match...Nothing more satisfying that hitting 4 good slice 1st serves in doubles and holding serve...Now if I were a lefty like McEnroe, I'd hit slice serves all day.
 

onehandbh

Legend
Slice serve is easier on the body for sure. Missing a flat 1st serve and then hitting a kick 2nd serve takes a lot out of the body over a match...Nothing more satisfying that hitting 4 good slice 1st serves in doubles and holding serve...Now if I were a lefty like McEnroe, I'd hit slice serves all day.
The slice serve is my weakest serve right now. Probably due to inconsistent toss and the tendency of my toss to wander left. Having a serve that is supposed to slice wide on the deuce but end up with less slice and more topspin and less wide than I wanted is not a good thing against a good player.

Right now most of my aces and service winners are from deuce middle serve and ad court wide serve.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
Probably due to inconsistent toss
honestly, imo, the toss is the #1 problem most rec players (and me)... alot of problems would be solved if they knew where the balls was going to be again and again...
alot of the "stuff" that needs to be fixed is often because they are chasing a bad toss.
 

onehandbh

Legend
honestly, imo, the toss is the #1 problem most rec players (and me)... alot of problems would be solved if they knew where the balls was going to be again and again...
alot of the "stuff" that needs to be fixed is often because they are chasing a bad toss.
Guilty as charged. I chase EVERY bad toss. Once the toss goes up I try to hit it. I think I am more likely to whiff from chasing a bad toss than catching it to re-toss again. If I would double fault more, I think it might make me catch more tosses, but I hit topspin on my 2nd serve so even really crappy tosses usually result in the serve going in.
 

DavidGibson

New User
Slice serve is easier on the body for sure.
A slice serve is no more or less stressful to the body than any other serve. The difference between a slice and a flat serve is a matter of a slightly different racket path. They are virtually identical in body movements so much so that it is sometimes extremely difficult to determine when a pro is serving flat or slice, even when you slow down video.
 

DavidGibson

New User
My tears, they fall like rain.
LOL. Don't take it personally but I see rec players and trained players everyday.. and I've also seen plenty of video of the TW members hitting and when recreational players talk about BIG serves down the tee and KILLER kicks and slices that take the opponent off the court, they do so using a different benchmark.

I tell you the God's honest truth when I say that I see rec players every day in and out of the club and I could count on one hand the number of players I've seen in the last 5 years who can actually serve properly or hit a proper forehand.. and those few players undoubtedly were trained as youngsters so please forgive me if I tend to dismiss, with a slight chuckle,the self proclaimed 4.0 player with the 120mph kicker.
 

jm1980

G.O.A.T.
I have a 4.0 groundstroke game, 3.5 volley and overhead game, but now my serve is almost 5.0 level!
How exactly did you come to this conclusion? Did you play USTA matches at the 5.0 level?

Your NTRP rating reflects how well you play. If you have an "almost 5.0" serve you'd be rated at 4.5 at the very least with any semblance of a competent ground game. You would certainly not be playing "old man 3.5 doubles"
 
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SinjinCooper

Hall of Fame
Anyhoo, spinal flexion and extension is vital to correctly striking a kick serve, and irrespective of how fit you remain, that's a variable that deteriorates quite rapidly as you pass through middle age. Yet, it's really only a variable that affects the contact point on your service swing. It has no measurable independent value as a power, spin, or consistency variable in other kinds of serves.
 
LOL. 120mph kicker.
who said 120mph kicker? not me.

chuckle away...

if it makes you feel better. then yes i am dominating my local leagues with my 77mph flat bombs and 60mph kickers. the speed doesn't matter. WHICH IS ACTUALLY the POINT of this THREAD for me anyway! (although once you start getting that slice and kick going then adding the big bomb (300mph!) down the T really adds an exclamation point!

Who cares how fast i can crush it. The nasty slice hit with precision at half of whatever speed i hit the ball works better more often. i've been hitting with 5.0+ guys who played and coached Div1 college tennis and played on the ITF circuit for years. and they are not impressed with how fast i can hit the ball either. they are also not fazed by my slice. did not try the droppers on them either. but everything comes back... so there is always room to get better. that is why i am lacing 'em up right now. vamos
 
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A

AllCourtHeathen

Guest
How exactly did you come to this conclusion? Did you play USTA matches at the 5.0 level?

Your NTRP rating reflects how well you play. If you have an "almost 5.0" serve you'd be rated at 4.5 at the very least with any semblance of a competent ground game. You would certainly not be playing "old man 3.5 doubles"
he's talking about slice serves, who gives a **** what he self rates at, or even if he thinks he could turn pro.
 

Muzzy

New User
Love slice serves. I learned them because I had a lot of issues with my flat serve, but I have turned them into a good weapon. I don't hit the fastest serve on the courts, but I have good control over my slice. The great thing about a strong slice serve is that it is really hard to return it with a ton of pace - it will swing wide enough and stay low enough to prevent anyone "teeing off" of it.

I sometimes serve to some higher level players, and inevitably, when I hit flatter they smash it back at me. With the slice, I don't ace them, but the ball comes back at a much more manageable pace.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Slice serve is easy to hit - and gets you free points. The weird thing is that EVERYONE wants to learn the kicker - when in reality I know like two people with a good kicker. Personally think coaches should emphasize slice more - and wait till guys can hit solid flat and slice serves to learn kicker.
 
Great post. I have no fear of a big server at the 3.5 level.
I know, guaranteed, they will eventually start to miss every 1st serve.

I have started slicing my serve even harder, and I am winning points.
3.5 can not return my slice serve.
The throat it, and hit it to to net post!
Or to my net man!

It's not fast at all.
Eventually, they dial it in after about a set.
Esp. if they stand out real wide, waiting for it.

My goal for 2017 is to be able to go wide and down the middle.
Once I get both sides, it will be lethal at 3.5 and I will be unbreakable!

I can't wait for Spring.
I will do 3 hoppers every day
 
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