Defacto Masters 1000 totals for the top open era players

[timnz]

Masters 1000 events were compulsory only from 2000. Before then players picked and chose what events to compete in. In 1990's the 9 a year Masters 1000's started but there were many events that were paying the same sort of money and similar points. In 1990 forinstance, Lendl only competed in 2 of the Masters 1000's because they weren't compulsory. He did however compete in other events of comparable prize money.

So, is it fair to compare players in terms of their top 9 wins (top 9 wins outside of Slams and the various season end finals - WTF, WCT, ITF) when before 2000 players played non-Masters 1000 events with regularity and missed many Masters 1000 events.

So, I thought that I would conduct a list of events that were comparable in prize money to at least some of the Masters 1000 events and see what players total came to with these included.

Before 1990 - the situation become more complex as there was no Masters 1000's at all. However, a list has frequently been used on the Internet from 1970 to 1989 events.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_Masters_Series_records_and_statistics

I thought that I could check on the lowest paid of these top 9 events per year (outside of Slams and Season end finals) - and see what other events were of comparable standing.

So what do players totals look like with these defecto Masters 1000's added in?

Becker - 19 Masters 1000 equivalents - adding 6 more
--------
On top of the 13 events usually credited to him - you can add:

1986: Chicago, Sydney Indoor, Paris Indoor

1990 - Stuttgart - $825,000 – 32 Man draw - 313 points
Indianapolis - $825,000 – 56 man draw - 293 points
Australian Indoor Championships - Sydney - $750,000 – 48 man draw - 310 points

Edberg - 15-17 Masters 1000 equivalents - adding 7-9 more (see comments below)
=================================================

On top of the 8 Masters 1000 equivalents normally credited to him, you can add

Edberg in 1984 competed in 5 ‘Official’ Masters 1000 equivalents

1984 Milan – Points: Unknown Prize Money $350,000 Draw: 32

Edberg in 1987 competed in 7 ‘Official’ Masters 1000 equivalents

1987 Tokyo Outdoor – Points: 182 Prize Money: $400,000 Draw 56

1990 - 6 Official Masters 1000's competed in

Defacto Masters 1000 tournament win:
Suntory Japan Open Tennis – Tokyo- $825,000 - 328 points

1991 - 7 Official Masters 1000's competed in - so should only add a maximum of 2 extra

Defacto Masters 1000 tournament wins:
Stuttgart - $825,000 – 32 Man draw - 282 points

Suntory Japan Open Tennis – Tokyo- $825,000 – 56 man draw - 325 points

Australian Indoor Championships - Sydney - $750,000 – 48 man draw - 294 points

Seiko Super Tennis Tournament – Tokyo - $750,000 – 48 man draw - 304 points

1992 - 5 Official Masters 1000's competed in

Defacto Masters 1000 tournament win:
Volvo International - New Haven, CT, USA - $865,000 - 56 man draw - 326 points

1994 - 7 Official Masters 1000's competed in

Defacto Masters 1000 tournament win:
Stuttgart - $2,125,000 – 527 points

A question could be - should Edberg be credited with 4 more Masters 1000 equivalents in 1991 since he competed in 7 official Masters 1000's that year? Perhaps he should get only 2 extra. In all other cases, Defacto Masters 1000's wins doesn't push them over 9 tournament a year for Edberg (Official and Defacto Masters 1000's) counted tournament wins.

Sampras - New total 15 Masters 1000 equivalents
=====================================

to the 11 he is normally credited with you can add:

1990 - 6 Official Masters 1000's competed in

Defacto Masters 1000 tournament win:
U.S. Pro Indoor – Philadelphia - $825,000 – 48 man draw - 334 points

1991 - 7 Official Masters 1000's competed in

Defacto Masters 1000 tournament win:
Indianapolis - $825,000 – 56 man draw - 339 points

1992 - 7 Official Masters 1000's competed in

Defacto Masters 1000 tournament wins:
U.S. Pro Indoor – Philadelphia - $865,000 – 48 man draw - 272 points
Indianapolis, IN, USA - $865,000 - 56 draw - 321 points

Wilander - 8 'Official' Top 9 events from the URL link + 5 defacto Top 9's = 13 total
====================================================

Defacto Top 9 events are:

1982 Barcelona
1983 Lisbon
1983 Stockholm
1986 Brussels
1987 Indianapolis

Agassi – normally thought of as being on 17 Masters 1000’s = total now moves to 19
=====================================================

in 1988 Agassi competed in 3 ‘Official’ Masters 1000 equivalents

In addition to this he won:

1988 Tournament of Champions, Forest Hills - Tournament Prize Money $485,000 - Draw 64 - 200 Points

1988 Stratton Mountain - Tournament Prize Money $400,000 - Draw 64 - 192 Points

McEnroe – normally thought of as being on 19 Masters 1000 equivalents - Total moves to 38 Masters 1000 equivalents ??
=============================================

To the 19 you could add:

1978 San Francisco
1979 New Orleans
1979 Milan
1979 San Francisco
1980 Richmond WCT
1980 Memphis
1980 Milan
1980 Sydney Indoor
1981 Pepsi Grand Slam - has the prize money - but perhaps should be excluded due to small field?
1982 San Francisco
1982 Sydney Indoor
1984 Brussels
1985 Houston
1985 Milan
1985 Chicago
1985 Atlanta
1985 Stratton Mountain
1986 Los Angeles
1988 Tokyo Outdoor

 

[Kirijax]

Very interesting. I've always thought the current tennis fans put way too much emphasis on the Masters 1000 without realizing the setup was different back in the 80s and 90s.

And a big wow at McEnroe's records!

 

[timnz]

Very interesting. I've always thought the current tennis fans put way too much emphasis on the Masters 1000 without realizing the setup was different back in the 80s and 90s.

And a big wow at McEnroe's records!

It is an imprecise art this. Problem is the fields didn't have the depth of today. On the other hand there was no compulsory tournaments - but what can you do...

Wait till you see Lendl and Connors counts - Lendl is way into the 40's and I am in the process of starting it

 

[Mustard]

Things were different in different eras. That's just the way it is. You can't just go using today's criteria for past eras, when things were different. In the 1990s, the ITF-sanctioned Grand Slam Cup had the most prize money, and the ATP refused to even recognise it at the time.

 

[timnz]

Things were different in different eras. That's just the way it is. You can't just go using today's criteria for past eras, when things were different. In the 1990s, the ITF-sanctioned Grand Slam Cup had the most prize money, and the ATP refused to even recognise it at the time.

The Grand Slam Cup isn't included in these top 9 as it was the ITF season end final (and the definition of a top 9 is that it is the top 9 events outside of the slams and various season end finals) . Yes the ATP didn't give it points at the time but I remember that the players fought incredibly hard to win it. Hence, it is in the category above top 9 events - in the same conversation at the WTF and WCT finals (it was more like the latter - especially like the WCT Later years)

Yes, it is very hard to compare one era with another....but we try.

 

[70sHollywood]

What if you just very militantly based it on draw strength? Just pick the 9 tournaments with the best fields?

 

[hoodjem]

Masters 1000 events were compulsory only from 2000. Before then players picked and chose what events to compete in. In 1990's the 9 a year Masters 1000's started but there were many events that were paying the same sort of money and similar points. In 1990 forinstance, Lendl only competed in 2 of the Masters 1000's because they weren't compulsory. He did however compete in other events of comparable prize money.

So, is it fair to compare players in terms of their top 9 wins (top 9 wins outside of Slams and the various season end finals - WTF, WCT, ITF) when before 2000 players played non-Masters 1000 events with regularity and missed many Masters 1000 events.

So, I thought that I would conduct a list of events that were comparable in prize money to at least some of the Masters 1000 events and see what players total came to with these included.

Before 1990 - the situation become more complex as there was no Masters 1000's at all. However, a list has frequently been used on the Internet from 1970 to 1989 events.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_Masters_Series_records_and_statistics

I thought that I could check on the lowest paid of these top 9 events per year (outside of Slams and Season end finals) - and see what other events were of comparable standing.

So what do players totals look like with these defecto Masters 1000's added in?

Becker - 19 Masters 1000 equivalents - adding 6 more
--------
On top of the 13 events usually credited to him - you can add:

1986: Chicago, Sydney Indoor, Paris Indoor

1990 - Stuttgart - $825,000 – 32 Man draw - 313 points
Indianapolis - $825,000 – 56 man draw - 293 points
Australian Indoor Championships - Sydney - $750,000 – 48 man draw - 310 points

Edberg - 15-17 Masters 1000 equivalents - adding 7-9 more (see comments below)
=================================================

On top of the 8 Masters 1000 equivalents normally credited to him, you can add

Edberg in 1984 competed in 5 ‘Official’ Masters 1000 equivalents

1984 Milan – Points: Unknown Prize Money $350,000 Draw: 32

Edberg in 1987 competed in 7 ‘Official’ Masters 1000 equivalents

1987 Tokyo Outdoor – Points: 182 Prize Money: $400,000 Draw 56

1990 - 6 Official Masters 1000's competed in

Defacto Masters 1000 tournament win:
Suntory Japan Open Tennis – Tokyo- $825,000 - 328 points

1991 - 7 Official Masters 1000's competed in - so should only add a maximum of 2 extra

Defacto Masters 1000 tournament wins:
Stuttgart - $825,000 – 32 Man draw - 282 points

Suntory Japan Open Tennis – Tokyo- $825,000 – 56 man draw - 325 points

Australian Indoor Championships - Sydney - $750,000 – 48 man draw - 294 points

Seiko Super Tennis Tournament – Tokyo - $750,000 – 48 man draw - 304 points

1992 - 5 Official Masters 1000's competed in

Defacto Masters 1000 tournament win:
Volvo International - New Haven, CT, USA - $865,000 - 56 man draw - 326 points

1994 - 7 Official Masters 1000's competed in

Defacto Masters 1000 tournament win:
Stuttgart - $2,125,000 – 527 points

A question could be - should Edberg be credited with 4 more Masters 1000 equivalents in 1991 since he competed in 7 official Masters 1000's that year? Perhaps he should get only 2 extra. In all other cases, Defacto Masters 1000's wins doesn't push them over 9 tournament a year for Edberg (Official and Defacto Masters 1000's) counted tournament wins.

Sampras - New total 15 Masters 1000 equivalents
=====================================

to the 11 he is normally credited with you can add:

1990 - 6 Official Masters 1000's competed in

Defacto Masters 1000 tournament win:
U.S. Pro Indoor – Philadelphia - $825,000 – 48 man draw - 334 points

1991 - 7 Official Masters 1000's competed in

Defacto Masters 1000 tournament win:
Indianapolis - $825,000 – 56 man draw - 339 points

1992 - 7 Official Masters 1000's competed in

Defacto Masters 1000 tournament wins:
U.S. Pro Indoor – Philadelphia - $865,000 – 48 man draw - 272 points
Indianapolis, IN, USA - $865,000 - 56 draw - 321 points

Wilander - 8 'Official' Top 9 events from the URL link + 5 defacto Top 9's = 13 total
====================================================

Defacto Top 9 events are:

1982 Barcelona
1983 Lisbon
1983 Stockholm
1986 Brussels
1987 Indianapolis

Agassi – normally thought of as being on 17 Masters 1000’s = total now moves to 19
=====================================================

in 1988 Agassi competed in 3 ‘Official’ Masters 1000 equivalents

In addition to this he won:

1988 Tournament of Champions, Forest Hills - Tournament Prize Money $485,000 - Draw 64 - 200 Points

1988 Stratton Mountain - Tournament Prize Money $400,000 - Draw 64 - 192 Points

McEnroe – normally thought of as being on 19 Masters 1000 equivalents - Total moves to 38 Masters 1000 equivalents ??

It looks like the link provides numbers for the most important nine non-slam tournaments (de facto Masters) back to 1970.

I wonder if this could be taken all the way back to the beginning of the Open Era?

I'd love to see how many 1000s equivalents Newcombe or Roche, Okker, Nastase, Laver, Rosewall, Borg and Connors would end up with.

 

[timnz]

1968/1969

It looks like the link provides numbers for the most important nine non-slam tournaments (de facto Masters) back to 1970.

I wonder if this could be taken all the way back to the beginning of the Open Era?I'd love to see how many 1000s equivalents Newcombe or Roche, Okker, Nastase, Laver, Rosewall, Borg and Connors would end up with.

So you want 1968 and 1969 as well? I created an earlier thread asking people's opinion as to what they thought the top events of those years are.

The problem with this list (and I don't know who created it), isn't with the list itself - but with the fact that these events weren't compulsory. So it is hard to use to the list to compare players records at those events to the 2000 + years. So that is why I have started to compile events that were at a comparable level to the ones in the list - because they COULD be included too. Perhaps thought we should have a rule that someone can't have more than 9 events per year included in their achievements (to match the present 9 Masters 1000's). If I add the comparable tournaments then Beckers list goes from 13 to 19, Edberg's list goes from 8 to 15-17, Sampras' list goes from 11 to 15 etc.

I doubt very much if Newcombe has more than 10 Masters 1000 equivalents.
He seemed to focus on peaking for Slams and perhaps WCT finals. Laver has around 15 just from the age of 30 up alone.

 

[Russeljones]

Once again, timnz, your tenacity in compiling the comparisons is to be applauded. A real treat for guys like me, stuck at work.