Defensive baseliners

Most ATP pros in 2023 can adopt a defensive baseline posture for long stretches of play. In the top 25 or so, I’d say:

Djokovic (not his default, but very capable of this style, perhaps the best ever at it)
Rune
Medvedev
Zverev
Paul
De Minaur
Fokina
Ruud
Norrie
Lehecka

Of course, just about everyone in the top 25 would be viewed as a defensive baseliner in the 90s or early 2000s, given the shifting standards of the game.
 
All sports, when solved, lead to defence over offence, and to extreme boredom and low creativity. This is not unique to tennis. Everyone now is a defensive baseliner because they're all playing a percentage game. Why? Because ranking in tennis benefits consistency instead of peak skill level.
 
Devilito said:
All sports, when solved, lead to defence over offence, and to extreme boredom and low creativity. This is not unique to tennis. Everyone now is a defensive baseliner because they're all playing a percentage game. Why? Because ranking in tennis benefits consistency instead of peak skill level.
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Defensive baseliners are those who throw up a lob. instead of a spectacular passing shot that he has little chance of making, to gain himself some more time.

To many, Nishikori was not a defensive baseliner, because he didn't play defense from the baseline. Agassi too.
 
Devilito said:
All sports, when solved, lead to defence over offence, and to extreme boredom and low creativity. This is not unique to tennis. Everyone now is a defensive baseliner because they're all playing a percentage game. Why? Because ranking in tennis benefits consistency instead of peak skill level.
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fwiw, and i've said this a few times, makes what federer achieved that much more impressive...to be as consistent results-wise as he was, playing what is essentially very high-risk tennis. same w pete in his day although faster courts gave more of an edge to that sort of play. fed was swashbuckling in a grind-rewarding era.
 
mental midget said:
fwiw, and i've said this a few times, makes what federer achieved that much more impressive...to be as consistent results-wise as he was, playing what is essentially very high-risk tennis. same w pete in his day although faster courts gave more of an edge to that sort of play. fed was swashbuckling in a grind-rewarding era.
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Yeah and (speaking for myself only): we copy him like idiots :)
But hey, live by the swor, die by the sword!
 
Technology, surfaces, analytics and sport science have all shifted the game towards the current state. To succeed you need that basic skillset but to have the biggest success you need to be able to take your chances aggressively.

BTW Hubi could imho be quite a bit more successful if he were more aggressive.
 
Rovesciarete said:
Technology, surfaces, analytics and sport science have all shifted the game towards the current state. To succeed you need that basic skillset but to have the biggest success you need to be able to take your chances aggressively.

BTW Hubi could imho be quite a bit more successful if he were more aggressive.
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Hubi is already pretty aggressive, especially on grass. He's a true all court player, with Alcaraz and recently Sinner also falling in that category.

Everybody else in the top 20 pretty much an attacking baseliner with De Minaur leaning more towards the counterpuncher. Zverev and Hubi could both probably be considered true big servers.
 
Chang, Hewitt, Simon, Ferrer, De Minaur.
Sanchez Vicario, Coetzer, Jankovic, Wozniacki for the women.
 
70% of points end on the ATP Tour within four shots (R+1) and almost 50% end in three shots (S+1) with roughly 25% of points ending on service winners. There are no defensive baseliners on tour as they are all capable of gettimg a high number of service winners or putting the first short ball away cleanly for a winner.

The best players have the best shot tolerance and so they don’t miss as much in longer rallies - that doesn’t make them defensive players. They are all still hitting the ball at >70mph with >2000 rpm on FHs/>1500 rpm on BHs.

The only ones I consider more defensive are the ones who give up court position and return from near the fence - Nadal, Medvedev etc. - but even those guys can clobber a winner as soon as they force a short ball. Players hitting the ball on the rise often from close to the baseline (Djokovic, Federer) are not ever defensive players.
 
Daniil Medvedev on return (and often on serve too)

Plan A is all legs and safe shots while giving up position.
 
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Devilito said:
All sports, when solved, lead to defence over offence
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This can't possibly be true about a sport where every point begins with one player having the opportunity to serve the ball in a way that their opponent can't return. It's pretty clear that not allowing your opponent to return your serve is closer to optimal than allowing them to return your serve.
 
The best player at defensive baselining is probably Rafa, but he is way too good to turn defense into offense to be called a defensive baseliner.

Ruud has turned into a defensive baseliner
 
Jonas78 said:
Ruud has turned into a defensive baseliner
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Ruud (when playing well) is still a serve-and-forehand guy, like Tsitsipas (and half the tour)

He doesn't have the legs or the backhand consistency to be a true backboard.

Jaume Munar is a defensive baseliner. Check out the Karatsev match from last AO, some extreme style clash there.
 
aldeayeah said:
Ruud (when playing well) is still a serve-and-forehand guy, like Tsitsipas (and half the tour)

He doesn't have the legs or the backhand consistency to be a true backboard.

Jaume Munar is a defensive baseliner. Check out the Karatsev match from last AO, some extreme style clash there.
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I didnt say Ruud was good at it :D. But after all of his aggression dissapeared, he has turned into a defensive baseliner, been dictated by almost everyone. At least on HC.
 
aldeayeah said:
De Minaur wants to be aggressive but he's just underpowered and often ends up in this role.
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good point. similar to davydenko, stays in close, definitely looks to end points but doesn't have that big weapon. for his size he's done a good job of maximizing his talent...don't think he's a slam contender but seen him play some pretty great tennis...certainly some epic scrambling.
 
mental midget said:
good point. similar to davydenko, stays in close, definitely looks to end points but doesn't have that big weapon. for his size he's done a good job of maximizing his talent...don't think he's a slam contender but seen him play some pretty great tennis...certainly some epic scrambling.
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He was fun to watch in the grass season this year. He can move on the stuff unlike many others and his flat ball is more serviceable there.
 
If a guy has enough shot tolerance where he doesn’t miss easily against his peers, it doesn’t make him a defensive baseliner especially when he can wallop the first short ball for a winner or hit 25-30% of his serves for winners. All the pros have great serves and FHs - the ones who also have great BHs, returns and extra shot tolerance often are the elite players. Usually they have extra shot tolerance because they can’t be outhit on their BH wing either in addition to their FH wing. Just about everyone who is in the top 100 on tour has been a power baseliner for many years except a few exceptions like Cressy, Lopez etc.
 
Aabye5 said:
Hubi is already pretty aggressive, especially on grass. He's a true all court player, with Alcaraz and recently Sinner also falling in that category.

Everybody else in the top 20 pretty much an attacking baseliner with De Minaur leaning more towards the counterpuncher. Zverev and Hubi could both probably be considered true big servers.
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Hubie has a tremendous serve, but he's not an attacking player by any stretch.
 
daggerman said:
This can't possibly be true about a sport where every point begins with one player having the opportunity to serve the ball in a way that their opponent can't return. It's pretty clear that not allowing your opponent to return your serve is closer to optimal than allowing them to return your serve.
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Sure it can when you remake surfaces to bounce the ball slower and higher to remove the advantage of the server and give time to the returner to be more aggressive. This is why I admire Andre as a returner more than Novak. Faster, harder balls that slide on the surface being returned with gut/syn gut strings VS Slow high bounce with poly. This is why Andre had to return inside the baseline while Novak can do the same thing easier or even return very far back because there is no threat of a serve and volley player.
 
If you think any pro player plays defensive tennis, you're incredibly wrong fellas.
Counterpunching and being on defence ≠ playing defensive tennis.
 
mike danny said:
Hubie has a tremendous serve, but he's not an attacking player by any stretch.
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I think he has become more of one this year. He isn't a serve-and-volley player, but he is not your typical baseliner. Now, everyone hugs the baseline compared to the 90s, but he definitely spends more time attacking than most. He's not a defensive baseliner by any stretch.
 
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