Define Pusher and Junk Baller

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cincyMike

Rookie
If you had to write the definition in Webster's for these terms what would it be? I think a lot of people consider anyone who doesn't hit lasers to be a pusher which I think is crazy. I have nothing but respect for guys who are like a ball machine and can get back tons of balls in play, especially when they are actually swinging at the ball, but for whatever reason unless you are hitting winner after winner you somehow fall into one of these categories.

To me a pusher is a guy who doesn't fully swing at the ball and just kinda pokes or blocks everything back.

A junk baller is a guy who uses a lot of unorthodox shots including but not limited to crazy forehand slices, lobs, and shots with some sort of spin created from an out of the norm swing on more shots than not.
 
Brad Gilbert is quoted saying he's a junkballer.
Harold Solomon TOLD me personally, face to face, that he's a pusher. His bud, Eddy Dibbs, says he himself pushes, but tends to play more variety to force errors.
Fabrice Santoro was a famous junkballer, as was OliverRochus and a bored MarcoBagdahtis.
 
cincyMike said:
To me a pusher is a guy who doesn't fully swing at the ball and just kinda pokes or blocks everything back.
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This is sort of right in that it is what a pusher looks like in most rec levels. To me, a "pusher" is someone whose primary strategy is to hit balls until his opponent misses rather than trying to end a point himself. That's what the 3.5 half-swing bunter does, but under my definition, you could extend "pusher" as a strategy all the way to the pro level, except that pro level "pushers" certainly aren't up there bunting balls back with a half swing, they're hitting heavy topspin penetrating rally balls in order to keep their pro level opponents from hitting winners.
 
NO. ATP "pusher types" DO hit the ball half their swingspeeds, higher than normal, and allow their legs to do the work for them. It's just that they CAN hit real 7.0 level pro shots, but choose NOT to, for this particular moment or opponent.
MiraslovMecir is another ATP pro who CAN hit as hard as anyone, but often hit's 2/3 speed to tease and frustrate his opponent's into missing. He's more pusher than junkballer, because junkballers like Rochus and Santoro can hit trick shots in the middle of a rally, weirdo spins and placements.
Mecir pushed by hitting deep balls down the middle, and retrieving everything his 6'3" frame could reach, which was a LOT.
 
No, I did not lose to MiraslovMecir, HaroldSolomon, EddyDibbs, or BradGilbert.
I did lose out on DanaGilbert, Brad's younger sister, to some dude from Yale who was 6'4" and a lacrosse player.
 
LeeD said:
No, I did not lose to MiraslovMecir, HaroldSolomon, EddyDibbs, or BradGilbert.
I did lose out on DanaGilbert, Brad's younger sister, to some dude from Yale who was 6'4" and a lacrosse player.
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I know it's hard to believe, but sometimes some comments are not directed at you specifically.
 
dcdoorknob said:
I know it's hard to believe, but sometimes some comments are not directed at you specifically.
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2010-04-30Its_All_About_Me.png
 
tennis or fluff

we have some many players out there..some are powerplayers, baseliners, full court, some mix bag players, some serve and volley, some spinners, and moonballing, or pusher. Sometimes pushing is ok but its not my style.
I don't like when a guy stops hitting the ball, hits slow cheese, not trying to place the ball, just hitting a fluff returns, i understand at times, it ok to save a game, but when a guy changes and every single shot changes to this pace for a full set or too from being competitive to match where i stand on the other side, dont even move but a foot or too, it like hitting with a 5 year old, i hate this, i get bored, but its an easy win now, hit the same shot back but with high topspin, then switch to short cross court or corner to corner or dropper to get him moving, then even serve and volley, i hate these players but use pace, better serving and angles to win quickly.
 
A pusher is what a tennis player calls another tennis player to insult them because they won't hit the ball to their fat@$$es on the baseline so thy can crush it down your throat. Complete stupidity to me. I respect anyone who can keep th ball in play and run you in the ground. I've done it to people and had it done to me at state a couple of weeks ago(only match I lost in 4 singles matches). He had more patience. Captain actually asked me to quit the match because we still had a chance to win state, but he would have been hell to beat and he'd won the first set. We were on serve in the second but it was going to be a long haul even with a 10 point breaker. So...it is what it is.

I'm playing a tourney in atl today on clay and guess what...if the guy comes out and is a fat@$$ or has on knee braces...I'm going to try to run him in the ground.


cincyMike said:
If you had to write the definition in Webster's for these terms what would it be? I think a lot of people consider anyone who doesn't hit lasers to be a pusher which I think is crazy. I have nothing but respect for guys who are like a ball machine and can get back tons of balls in play, especially when they are actually swinging at the ball, but for whatever reason unless you are hitting winner after winner you somehow fall into one of these categories.

To me a pusher is a guy who doesn't fully swing at the ball and just kinda pokes or blocks everything back.

A junk baller is a guy who uses a lot of unorthodox shots including but not limited to crazy forehand slices, lobs, and shots with some sort of spin created from an out of the norm swing on more shots than not.
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a pusher is someone that beats me because I am impatient, fat, and too darn lazy to stay on the court more than 2 hrs. :)
 
dcdoorknob said:
These are both primarily terms to use if you want to somehow find a way to imply that the player you just lost to is still inferior to you.
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BINGO!!!!! Personally I hate playing opponents who's style is short balls and no pace....BUT...that is MY PROBLEM..not theirs!

If they beat me playing that way, god bless them. Now I will admit, if I look at a draw, and see most of the entrants are these type of players then I'll decline IF the entry fee is over $30...don't like paying to be annoyed (seems insane)!

To me the fun (the reason everyone below pro plays...correct?) is playing a fast paced, all out, aggressive style of play that leaves me soaked in sweat and physically wasted..win or lose.

So for me I personally don't understand all the pushers at 3.5-4.5...I just can't fathom that type of play being fun, but then again to each their own.

When I lose to these players, and I do, but thankfully a lot less than I used to, I'm mad at no one but ME!
 
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Define Pusher and Junk Baller


push·er noun \ˈpu̇-shər\ :

1 - Junk baller
2 - Person who wins a lot

I warmed up against this guy who didn't look any good and he cleaned my clock, I hate pushers.
 
dcdoorknob said:
These are both primarily terms to use if you want to somehow find a way to imply that the player you just lost to is still inferior to you.
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BS. At least at the rec. level, a pusher is someone who typically starts out hitting "normally", finds themselves too challenged and starting to lose, and then decides to push/moonball because they can't compete any other way. They aren't making anybody run. All they do is hit a creampuff ball that is almost guaranteed to stay in, and by virtue of being and therefore playing against a low level opponent, resort to a method that hopes the other player is trying to actually improve or has an aversion to pushing, thereby letting the other play beat themselves as opposed to taking the win from them because in truth they really aren't the better player.

It's really a competition between short term gain vs. long term gain. Pushers are ridiculously easy to beat once you get to a certain level and you can hit balls at a pace they simply can't handle, pushing or otherwise. This is why it's important to realize that you're going to have to suffer through the "pusher" phase of opponents and have patience as you get better. Don't worry, you will, and when you do, you'll leave them far behind. *shrug*
 
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mtommer said:
BS. At least at the rec. level, a pusher is someone who typically starts out hitting "normally", finds themselves too challenged and starting to lose, and then decides to push/moonball because they can't compete any other way. They aren't making anybody run. All they do is hit a creampuff ball that is almost guaranteed to stay in, and by virtue of being and therefore playing against a low level opponent, resort to a method that hopes the other player is trying to actually improve or has an aversion to pushing, thereby letting the other play beat themselves as opposed to taking the win from them because in truth they really aren't the better player.
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"...because in truth they really aren't the better player."

Heh, seems like you're proving my point for me.
 
dcdoorknob said:
"...because in truth they really aren't the better player."

Heh, seems like you're proving my point for me.
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Lol, if only. What I really hate is when one person starts pushing and then the other starts to do so too. Oy oy oyyy oy oooyyyyy. Talk about the most boring thing in the world to watch and I've rarely see anyone truly win. Usually they just end up quitting and leaving, tired of playing.
 
J_R_B said:
LOL, exactly. The better player is the one who wins. There are no style points in tennis.
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Agree, but don't agree. There is a such thing as the better player AT THAT MOMENT, but not overall.

You have to admit, there are many times, that a better player plays like SH#T and the opponent merely survives their opponents hot mess.

Think of it this way...if we go by your logic then ALWAYS the better player wins..so let's go to an example of an upset. Last year Tommy Robredo upset Roger in a slam, if me and you had made a bet where you got the winner (by your assumption the better player) of that match in a fantasy head to head points league the following season for big cash...you'd have ended up with Tommy this year, I'd have Roger, and be rolling in the dough!:twisted:
 
HRB said:
Agree, but don't agree. There is a such thing as the better player AT THAT MOMENT, but not overall.

You have to admit, there are many times, that a better player plays like SH#T and the opponent merely survives their opponents hot mess.

Think of it this way...if we go by your logic then ALWAYS the better player wins..so let's go to an example of an upset. Last year Tommy Robredo upset Roger in a slam, if me and you had made a bet where you got the winner (by your assumption the better player) of that match in a fantasy head to head points league the following season for big cash...you'd have ended up with Tommy this year, I'd have Roger, and be rolling in the dough!:twisted:
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Of course it's the better player in that match and there are upsets or bad matchups or whatever, but many people (here and in general) lose and then still claim to be the better player in the match because of the style the other person plays. That's wrong. If you lost, you're not the better player in that match.
 
J_R_B said:
Of course it's the better player in that match and there are upsets or bad matchups or whatever, but many people (here and in general) lose and then still claim to be the better player in the match because of the style the other person plays. That's wrong. If you lost, you're not the better player in that match.
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Agree...I experience the following:

Out right wins (I won, clearly, outplayed the opponent): Preferred.

Survival Wins (I made less mistakes than a clearly better player off his game): Don't prefer, feel cheesy.

Out played Loss: (tried my best, played well, just not good enough): Preferred.

Beat myself (the opposite of the survival win above, with me on losing end): hate it!

Toss up win or loss (we both played our best, many winners, minimal errors, shame someone had to lose): MY ALL TIME FAVORITE RESULT WIN OR LOSE.
 
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=58284

Clearly, you have to beat them. The logical point.

Though as many on the board here play for "fun," certain opponents bore them or don't provide them with the "after feel" they want, win or lose.

See the link above.

The one I hate is the "chopshotter." Chop. Chop. Chop. A friend does this. It's like all he can do. Can you beat him? Yes. Afterward, you feel like you've wasted your time.

"Oh, I love when players hit hard against me." Of course, he does. He can't generate shots of his own.
-----------
This is what bothers many here. They expect some experience from the match/hitting and don't get it against certain types of players.
 
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Radicalized said:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=58284

Clearly, you have to beat them. The logical point.

Though as many on the board here play for "fun," certain opponents bore them or don't provide them with the "after feel" they want, win or lose.

See the link above.

The one I hate is the "chopshotter." Chop. Chop. Chop. A friend does this. It's like all he can do. Can you beat him? Yes. Afterward, you feel like you've wasted your time.

"Oh, I love when players hit hard against me." Of course, he does. He can't generate shots of his own.
-----------
This is what bothers many here. They expect some experience from the match/hitting and don't get it against certain types of players.
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Off topic...but love your statement on the Gamma stringer in your sig....I have developed quite a loyal customer base of 3.5-5.0 friends who pay me to string for them, after years of going to "Pro-Shops"...little do they know it's done on a simple drop weight machine (Klipper), while streaming a match, enjoying a brew or 3, and possible some "flameable fun":twisted:!
 
why do people make a big deal out of the 'style' somebody plays--pusher, junk baller, power hitter etc.... it all about the overall LEVEL of someones play NOT about the STYLE of someones play...
 
Played one Friday. I was playing aggressive, but just missing the lines starting off. I considered changing strategy to hit the ball down the middle but said "nah" and ended up winning in straights.
I love hitting winners and playing aggressive against pushers.
 
Experience

There are so many types of players, I think some of admire a guy with a big game, goes for serves whether it's placement or angles, high kicks, or isner bombs, I try and imagine returns and shots like the old Agassi, moves like rafter, or big plays like nadal, fed or Novak. I try and emulate some of my fav players, problem is everyone you play is a little different and sometimes it's a fun dogfight , hard hitting serves, great returns, a real chess match. Those are my matches, 2 guys going big, trying to out play, out smart the other.... I haven't lost to pusher this year, my losses this year where my mistakes and errors more than getting outplayed, I hated losing but I learned from them, sometimes my conditioning hurts me at match 3 in usta tournament as my body struggles to play that 3rd match in less than 24 hours, but I don't like cheese tennis, I used to get mad when a player beat me with less than favorable style but I don't allow them to dictate those points anymore, if I don't like a style, beat them faster and get out of there or get frustrated, play your game, it might take 1 more shot but take control, set up your shots, play your game.
I was losing points, games matches and I decided why to I let them do it, I made changes and my win loss record improved. Play your game, win or lose your style and you will feel good about the match. Do it!!
 
cincyMike said:
To me a pusher is a guy who doesn't fully swing at the ball and just kinda pokes or blocks everything back.

A junk baller is a guy who uses a lot of unorthodox shots including but not limited to crazy forehand slices, lobs, and shots with some sort of spin created from an out of the norm swing on more shots than not.
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I agree. In both cases, they know their physical limits and use what works best for them. Do I like playing or practicing with either - nope, avoid doing so like The Plague. But I respect their right to do it - it's their version of tennis.

Love how clowns have to bring pros into these discussions. Any pro who doesn't swing as hard as Nadal becomes a pusher in their fantasy world. And when BG calls himself a pusher, it's in a self-deprecating (oops, big word!) way.
 
cincyMike said:
To me a pusher is a guy who doesn't fully swing at the ball and just kinda pokes or blocks everything back.

A junk baller is a guy who uses a lot of unorthodox shots including but not limited to crazy forehand slices, lobs, and shots with some sort of spin created from an out of the norm swing on more shots than not.
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These threads are made weekly it seems, but your definitions of both seem just fine to me.

The pusher type you describe is one guy I play and beat 9/10 unless I'm just being an idiot and making UEs all over the place.

The junk ballers can be really high level if they have a lot of experience and touch.

Either way it is a tough way to play tennis if you want to go out and have a physical match with some power behind the shots. It can make you hate the match even if you win because you will not get those pleasurable points that many people enjoy (myself included).

Key to pushers - come to net when you have them on the run.

Key to junk ballers - do not hit directly to them with pace. They love that.
 
coloskier said:
A pusher or a junk baller win from other players mistakes, not from their own winners. Cowardly, in my opinion.
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It's cowardly to win on the other player's errors?

That's the funniest thing I've heard in a while. Let me make a wild guess here...you have trouble beating people who keep getting the ball back over the net?
 
It takes footwork, technique, bravery, and fitness, but it CAN be done.

Pushers never get better, but you can get improve and learn how to beat them and move up to the next level.
 
jdubbs said:
It takes footwork, technique, bravery, and fitness, but it CAN be done.

Pushers never get better, but you can get improve and learn how to beat them and move up to the next level.
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Pushers play that way because at 4.0 and below, there are enough guys that they will beat that way. Nobody would continue to play that way if it didn't work sometimes.
 
I agree with the definitions presented by the OP and I really don't understand why people get so heated at the mere mention of pushers and junkballers. The one thing I don't see mentioned in this thread (maybe I missed it) is the fact that pushing or junkballing can either be:

1. The only way a person is capable of playing.
or
2. Just a strategy utilized to defeat a particular opponent.

In case #1, How is this a problem? The person can't play tennis any other way and is a 1-trick pony. Losing points/games and need to stop the bleeding? Calm your mind and look at your opponent's game dispassionately. Find weaknesses and exploit them.

In case #2, If you have a problem with mental resilience on the tennis court then this guy might give you problems. Simple solution? Counter whatever junk or pushing he does. Vary YOUR tactics. If your game plan or skill set treats stepping inside the baseline like stepping into a shark tank then you're probably going to lose. Fix it.
 
JackB1 said:
Pushers play that way because at 4.0 and below, there are enough guys that they will beat that way. Nobody would continue to play that way if it didn't work sometimes.
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100% agree with you, but the question I have is: why not try to improve your game so you have more weapons? Its gratifying to move past that stage and at least somewhat emulate the pros you see on TV. I can't understand why you'd want to push your whole tennis life, even if it works at the level you're at.
 
I think a lot of people have the opinion that players who don't crush the ball are all pushers. I personally have more trouble with people who hit deep spin than I do with a guy who just pounds the ball but it lands in my strike zone. The best player in my local USTA 4.5 league hits like this and I have heard people refer to him as a pusher and it just makes me laugh. Of course the guys calling him this are the ones he has already beat numerous times because they aren't patient enough to stay in a rally consisting of more than 3-4 shots and are trying to hit winners from 6 feet behind the baseline.
 
jdubbs said:
100% agree with you, but the question I have is: why not try to improve your game so you have more weapons? Its gratifying to move past that stage and at least somewhat emulate the pros you see on TV. I can't understand why you'd want to push your whole tennis life, even if it works at the level you're at.
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Everyone is entitled to play the game as they choose. That's the beauty of tennis. I don't play that way personally, but I do play to make less errors than my opponent. I could care less about ripping winners and ever since I focused on making less UEs, my game went up.

If it gives you pleasure to emulate your favorite Pro's, then by all means do it and don't worry about the pushers out there. Maybe they enjoy frustrating you by getting everything back to you? If they can't outhit you, really the only way they will win is to out "patience" you.
 
cincyMike said:
I think a lot of people have the opinion that players who don't crush the ball are all pushers. I personally have more trouble with people who hit deep spin than I do with a guy who just pounds the ball but it lands in my strike zone. The best player in my local USTA 4.5 league hits like this and I have heard people refer to him as a pusher and it just makes me laugh. Of course the guys calling him this are the ones he has already beat numerous times because they aren't patient enough to stay in a rally consisting of more than 3-4 shots and are trying to hit winners from 6 feet behind the baseline.
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This sounds like a guy that just won my singles league division. He went undefeated and all he does is rally with you until you get impatient and screw up. He hits a deep, medium paced ball and never goes for the lines. It will work about 90% of the time. It takes great discipline to override your brain and play EVERY shot at a low margin of error.
 
JackB1 said:
Everyone is entitled to play the game as they choose. That's the beauty of tennis. I don't play that way personally, but I do play to make less errors than my opponent. I could care less about ripping winners and ever since I focused on making less UEs, my game went up.

If it gives you pleasure to emulate your favorite Pro's, then by all means do it and don't worry about the pushers out there. Maybe they enjoy frustrating you by getting everything back to you? If they can't outhit you, really the only way they will win is to out "patience" you.
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Again, the majority of players at 4.0 and below push, so if someone is happy doing that, that's fine. For me personally I can't understand why you wouldn't want to progress to the next level. It's like heaving a ball at the basket underhanded with two hands. Goofy and lame, though perhaps effective, but i'd rather shoot like Jordan or Kobe.
As far as pushers frustrating me? I got past pushers a while ago. After hitting and match play with a 5.0 twice a week for years, pusher shots seemed like a joke, super easy to deal with and crush. Bagels and breadsticks every time I played them. Not fun for either of us, so I stopped playing them.

It made me feel good to progress, but I guess if you're ok with just hitting the ball down the middle, then bully for you. But why not keep progressing past that? I just think you're missing out on really fun tennis.
 
jdubbs said:
Again, the majority of players at 4.0 and below push, so if someone is happy doing that, that's fine. For me personally I can't understand why you wouldn't want to progress to the next level. It's like heaving a ball at the basket underhanded with two hands. Goofy and lame, though perhaps effective, but i'd rather shoot like Jordan or Kobe.
As far as pushers frustrating me? I got past pushers a while ago. After hitting and match play with a 5.0 twice a week for years, pusher shots seemed like a joke, super easy to deal with and crush. Bagels and breadsticks every time I played them. Not fun for either of us, so I stopped playing them.

It made me feel good to progress, but I guess if you're ok with just hitting the ball down the middle, then bully for you. But why not keep progressing past that? I just think you're missing out on really fun tennis.
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Who said all I do is "hit the ball down the middle"? That's not what I do at all.
Personally I am very interested in progressing and that's exactly what I have done the past 5 years of my short tennis life. Most of my fellow rec players and teammates don't work on improving their game at all. They just show up and play their same game, week after week. I work on my game all the time, but we all have limits. I just cannot go out and try and rip baseline shots...I will lose. I try and find a balance between smart play and fun play. Thats works for me. I don't know why you are generalizing so much? Just play however you like and have fun man!
 
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JackB1 said:
Who said all I do is "hit the ball down the middle"? That's not what I do at all.
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I'm not a style expert but I think that part of the (classic) pusher definition is that not only is there minimal pace involved but this player also doesn't tend to try to place the ball out of reach either (in other words, pretty much hits up the middle - and has no legitimate passing shot).

I'm not sure where the consistent, low-paced hitter who rarely hits down the middle and runs his opponent around a lot fits in with the style definitions... perhaps "placement pusher," which would certainly fit the style of Harold Solomon, one of the heroes of my youth.

I suspect that a lot of folks characterize anyone who's consistent and doesn't try to hit with pace as a pusher (as it makes them feel better about their own error-prone game - "I suck, but I swing like a pro!"). Sometimes, however, I suspect that there's a lot more going on with the purported pusher's game than meets the eye. If a guy's just hitting puff-balls up the middle, after all, all you gotta do is come to net and put these shots away, which doesn't take much skill at all.
 
I tend to see that the standard pusher will not put away a sitter in the middle of the court, or at least attempt to do anything with the ball. When practicing, I also see that if a pusher was told to not lob or moonball in order to practice decent-speed rallying, the errors pile up incredibly fast. Neither of these two facets make up the main definition of a pusher, but are common nonetheless.

I would ultimately define the pusher as a player whose primary goal is to not lose the point (thereby waiting for opponent error) rather than trying to win the point. The only problem with this definition is that there is a huge difference between waiting for an error and forcing the error.

If I were to define a junk baller, I would say that he or she is a player who does not play with any consistent spin or depth.
 
cincyMike said:
I think a lot of people have the opinion that players who don't crush the ball are all pushers.
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Very true. We had a guy come to these boards a few years ago, griping about losing to a guy who didn't take a full cut at every groundie, and wanting to start a 'Hitter's League' where anyone who played any defense would be thrown out (LOL!).
 
West Coast Ace said:
Very true. We had a guy come to these boards a few years ago, griping about losing to a guy who didn't take a full cut at every groundie, and wanting to start a 'Hitter's League' where anyone who played any defense would be thrown out (LOL!).
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If hitting the back fence on the fly was in play my game would be awesome. If you want to bash the ball, just play everything below the first cross bar on the back fence is in. Definitely an interesting way to play, wear racquetball goggles ;)
 
Captain Ron said:
If hitting the back fence on the fly was in play my game would be awesome. If you want to bash the ball, just play everything below the first cross bar on the back fence is in. Definitely an interesting way to play, wear racquetball goggles ;)
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Or they should be playing in softball leagues with a keg at 2nd... :)

And I'm as impatient as the next guy and really have to work at just hanging in points and waiting for a better shot to turn offensive on. Of course, too timid doesn't work either.
 
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