Define Pusher and Junk Baller

I think we all have a least one shot or shots that can be described as a pushing shot or junkball shot but i would guess the majority prefer to play a different style. I think a lot of us get bored when an opposing players decides to change tactics and it becomes only slow moving cheese...
I also understand you dont want to lose with a ton of unforced errors, i used to lose to these players to trying to overly aggressive instead of hitting 1 or 2 more balls to win the point with a sharp angles, heavy topspin and making them move all around the court....pushers i see here in Dallas wont hit pace, wont really place the ball, hit slow forehands, mid depth backhands using a slice and moonballs...junk ballers employ some of the same shots, but have a more limited array of shots, some would be great on clay as the most drop everything shot or it a super moonball. I decided i wasnt going to play their style and lose and will try my best to recontrol the points and move them...as others have stated, it good to play them to know how to beat this kind of player. You know they wont out run you on the court even if they chase the ball down you know it will a ball you can get too, you need to make your own pace, if you want to win, win
 
When I play someone new, I spend the entire warmup and first few games trying to figure out what pace ball they like the most....I try hitting to them hard, medium, slow and real slow.
Then when I figure out what they like the least, I give that to them the most.

Same thing smar pitchers do. You wouldn't throw fastballs to someone who is a great fastball hitter. If someone hates no pace balls or slices to his forehand side or high moonballs to his backhand, you can be sure they will see a steady diet of those until they show me they have an answer.
 
JackB1 said:
If they can't outhit you, really the only way they will win is to out "patience" you.
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They aren't "out patiencing" anyone. It's taking joy out of beating someone who is essentially a newbie at tennis, playing in such a way to feed their delusion that, unlike the newbie, they are better than them despite their years and decades of playing. Only they aren't which is why they have to resort to feeding practice balls to a player that under the most ideal situations aren't likely to hit more than two or three balls in.

Eventually the newb surpasses them and they go back to the old guys who have no mobility but love the game and brag about their "victories". Pushers are really nothing more than bullies and it's why they are so despised.
 
Ok, gotta burst that little bubble. You beat Mr. Pusher, yay! You can beat a pusher. Then what, you gotta do it again and again? To prove what? Many of the pushers I know are also really boring PEOPLE -- not just boring tennis. And a little on the, weird side -- the cargo shorts -- goggles -- other odd habits ('look out for that ball [30 feet away], I once knew a guy that broke his ankle on a ball on the court') -- you know -- jumps in right away with "I'll bring the chips" for USTA hosting.

So ... I understand ... really ... this notion of the pusher vs. hitter debate -- give the pushers some love ... blah-blah. Time for recreation is valuable -- too valuable to waste on boring tennis with boring people. Match them up like the old Lily Tomlin joke.
 
You don't need "junk" to push. Pushing is just getting the ball back hoping for an opponent's error without really trying to construct the point much. (IMO, even if you're not going for outright winners, but are moving the ball around, getting your opponent out of position or off balance, you're doing more than pushing). You don't need to junk it up to do this. You can push using all perfectly standard, nice strokes.

Junk, on the other hand, involves, well, "junk" - drop shots, squash shots, violent slices, various spins and heights, off-speed stuff, seemingly random changes of pace, etc. What makes it "junk" isn't necessarily the shot itself. A lot of these shots exists in non-junky form. It's more how they're all put together and really the intent - to disturb, distract, even enrage your opponent and never allow him any rhythm.
 
Tennis is about finding ways to win more points. All of you obsessing over how it is done are completely missing the point. At the same time absolving yourselves of all responsibility for losing. It's how losers are born - people who win regularly evolve naturally.
 
Moz said:
Tennis is about finding ways to win more points. All of you obsessing over how it is done are completely missing the point. At the same time absolving yourselves of all responsibility for losing. It's how losers are born - people who win regularly evolve naturally.
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Heresy alert! Way too logical...
 
....and what level would that be? I ask because I've beaten guys at 4.5 pushing the ball. The main reason people can't beat pushers is the lack of respect for the person pushing the ball. I use to be a complete pusher. I'm mid 40's now and I now actually have a backhand that is not to be toyed with. The problem with that though is I have somewhat fallen into the mode of not wanting to stay on the court for 3 hours like I did say just 5 or 6 years ago. I got beat badly this weekend by a so called pusher. The guy was 34 years old and ran like the wind. I sat in traffic for 3 hours Friday and my match was called off and then on again....By the time I went back across town I had not patience.lol I actually beat the same guy 2 years ago. I lost like 1 and 2 this past Friday. I was probably up in most of the games in some cases 40-0 or 0-40 on his serve. I couldn't close them out. He was willing to hit 30 balls if needed be and I wasn't. So I lost. I put the ball on the back of the back of the baseline time and time again...moving him from corner to corner...He wasn't having it. So I have to retool and find my patience. I think so called pushing is under estimated like speed is. People love to talk about a big serve or a big backhand or forehand...no one wants to give any credit to speed and endurance.


mtommer said:
BS. At least at the rec. level, a pusher is someone who typically starts out hitting "normally", finds themselves too challenged and starting to lose, and then decides to push/moonball because they can't compete any other way. They aren't making anybody run. All they do is hit a creampuff ball that is almost guaranteed to stay in, and by virtue of being and therefore playing against a low level opponent, resort to a method that hopes the other player is trying to actually improve or has an aversion to pushing, thereby letting the other play beat themselves as opposed to taking the win from them because in truth they really aren't the better player.

It's really a competition between short term gain vs. long term gain. Pushers are ridiculously easy to beat once you get to a certain level and you can hit balls at a pace they simply can't handle, pushing or otherwise. This is why it's important to realize that you're going to have to suffer through the "pusher" phase of opponents and have patience as you get better. Don't worry, you will, and when you do, you'll leave them far behind. *shrug*
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chatt_town said:
....and what level would that be?
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The level where your weapon, be that fh, bh or both, are good enough that on a typical pusher returned ball, your reply will either simply be unreturnable (ie outright winner) or produces a very weak and short reply. Not a typical pusher reply but the "I am just barely there and being able to even get a racquet on the ball is questionable" type of reply that goes into the net or out by a pretty good margin, or is a very weak and short ball, at which point you just setup up your guaranteed winner (lol, well usually so anyway)

I play sometimes with a guy who is small, light and very fast. When the chance arrives, we like hitting with each other. Him because I have enough control that I can keep the pace down but still let him run side to side so he gets his workout in. Me because he hits weak reply balls back so it forces me to stay focused. Now keep in mind that although some would see him as a pusher, he's not because I simply don't let him get to my balls with enough timing to properly set up (again, his choice). When he does, he hits a "normal" shot.

So I'm not underestimating patience or speed. They too are every bit a weapon and weak replies are not the same as a "pushed" ball. I've also yet to encounter a true pusher that's fast.
 
mtommer said:
They aren't "out patiencing" anyone. It's taking joy out of beating someone who is essentially a newbie at tennis, playing in such a way to feed their delusion that, unlike the newbie, they are better than them despite their years and decades of playing. Only they aren't which is why they have to resort to feeding practice balls to a player that under the most ideal situations aren't likely to hit more than two or three balls in.

Eventually the newb surpasses them and they go back to the old guys who have no mobility but love the game and brag about their "victories". Pushers are really nothing more than bullies and it's why they are so despised.
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That's a lot of butthurt in one post.
 
chatt_town said:
....and what level would that be? I ask because I've beaten guys at 4.5 pushing the ball. The main reason people can't beat pushers is the lack of respect for the person pushing the ball. I use to be a complete pusher. I'm mid 40's now and I now actually have a backhand that is not to be toyed with. The problem with that though is I have somewhat fallen into the mode of not wanting to stay on the court for 3 hours like I did say just 5 or 6 years ago. I got beat badly this weekend by a so called pusher. The guy was 34 years old and ran like the wind. I sat in traffic for 3 hours Friday and my match was called off and then on again....By the time I went back across town I had not patience.lol I actually beat the same guy 2 years ago. I lost like 1 and 2 this past Friday. I was probably up in most of the games in some cases 40-0 or 0-40 on his serve. I couldn't close them out. He was willing to hit 30 balls if needed be and I wasn't. So I lost. I put the ball on the back of the back of the baseline time and time again...moving him from corner to corner...He wasn't having it. So I have to retool and find my patience. I think so called pushing is under estimated like speed is. People love to talk about a big serve or a big backhand or forehand...no one wants to give any credit to speed and endurance.
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If you are moving him from side to side and hitting the ball on the back of the baseline, you should be able to elicit a weak enough reply so that you could come to net and put it away.
Net play is absolutely essential to beat pushers.
I also don't have the stamina, so I have to come in to finish points when possible.
 
I think that sometimes, people can get a "pusher" tag because they beat the person (who is now calling them a pusher, it's not self-given) in that way. But it doesn't mean that's all they can do, it's just what they did to win that particular match.

I played a guy last week that I am better than. I have better strokes, serve, movement, whatever. He was just giving me junk, don't even know if it was on purpose. I was playing balls at the service line that were down around my ankles.

I lost a few points by trying to "dominate" him, hitting long on service returns, going for angles but the balls were far too short/slow to hit with any aggression. Adding all of the pace on the ball. Then, I realised, I was trying to start the match in 3rd gear. Truth was, I didn't ever need to get in to 1st gear. Just get the ball back and check my ego at the door. Didn't even have to worry about keeping it deep or cross-court. There was no need to take any extra risks. The only time I went for winners was when the ball was short and I could take it at net height or higher (or at the net for a volley).

Now, he says he's figured out my game and knows how to beat me. Didn't have the heart to tell him that I've got more in my locker and will bring it out if I need to.

He may well call me a pusher to someone else, even if I'm not. And last week, for that hour, I was.
 
Yeah I beat a pusher this weekend by just rolling balls that landed deep on him.

It started off a little close because I was overhitting and making mistakes.

Once I realized I could just roll balls deep and force him into UEs by kicking balls over his shoulders - I was cruising to a win.

But honestly, it was not a really fun way to play tennis.
 
No, I don't enjoy it either. This guy, in my example, was trash-talking me a bit before hand, so I absolutely could not lose to him.

In your example, PP, that guy may well be calling you a pusher today. But, he doesn't know that you only pulled out enough to win.

I'd rather play a match where I have to make some shots.
 
I see pushers as the people who hits off speed shots to the middle of the court. They rely on you missing. Junkballers, well, throw junk at you to get you off your game
 
Larrysümmers said:
I see pushers as the people who hits off speed shots to the middle of the court. They rely on you missing. Junkballers, well, throw junk at you to get you off your game
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This seems about right. The styles are pretty similar, neither the pusher nor junkballer go for angles or depth, and don't put "thought" into their shots other than get them in. I find playing against these types of players to be a real challenge, both mentally and physically. The only people who seem to be bothered by them are those who aren't up to the challenge :p.
 
Pusher to me is someone who kind of blocks balls back, not necessarily in an direction, they just want to get the ball in on the other side. They don't swing.

Junkballer uses different spins and gives their opponents uncomfortable shots to hit.


And playing defensive is not PUSHING. For example Ferrer and Nadal to me are not pushers. They both play high percentage tennis but they like controlling the points with their FHs. They are aiming the ball to a spot on the court that their opponents find uncomfortable to hit from. To me that is controlled aggression.
 
Yep, I tried that and even got some of the points...but hell after sitting on the highway for 3 hours and then having the match canceled and back on again...I couldn't keep doing it man....not that day....As I said, I beat him two years ago but I had the patience that day and did come in to finish points. His legs killed me that day. Forehand to his deuce side....sweeping one hander to his backhand...come to net....opps leave the volley sitting up and he comes in and passes me....over and over and over again...lol


mtommer said:
The level where your weapon, be that fh, bh or both, are good enough that on a typical pusher returned ball, your reply will either simply be unreturnable (ie outright winner) or produces a very weak and short reply. Not a typical pusher reply but the "I am just barely there and being able to even get a racquet on the ball is questionable" type of reply that goes into the net or out by a pretty good margin, or is a very weak and short ball, at which point you just setup up your guaranteed winner (lol, well usually so anyway)

I play sometimes with a guy who is small, light and very fast. When the chance arrives, we like hitting with each other. Him because I have enough control that I can keep the pace down but still let him run side to side so he gets his workout in. Me because he hits weak reply balls back so it forces me to stay focused. Now keep in mind that although some would see him as a pusher, he's not because I simply don't let him get to my balls with enough timing to properly set up (again, his choice). When he does, he hits a "normal" shot.

So I'm not underestimating patience or speed. They too are every bit a weapon and weak replies are not the same as a "pushed" ball. I've also yet to encounter a true pusher that's fast.
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jdubbs said:
If you are moving him from side to side and hitting the ball on the back of the baseline, you should be able to elicit a weak enough reply so that you could come to net and put it away.
Net play is absolutely essential to beat pushers.
I also don't have the stamina, so I have to come in to finish points when possible.
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Often the key to beating a pusher, if you're an aggressive player and like to go for your shots and hit heavy, is just backing off. If you try and play your usual game the lack of pace and momentum will be your undoing... it messes with your timing leading to UEs - either overhits or in the net.

Think about it, if your opponent - the pusher - is just living off your pace and bunting the ball back, moonballing, whatever then there's no opposing force on the ball as it comes towards you. So if you took your normal full swing at it then it's going sail well out as the resistance that would be there in the ball coming towards you off a player who does hit his shots won't be there.

Played a guy over three sets last night who pushed everything. Moonballs mostly, no pace, bounced straight up in the air when they landed. I lost the first set through frustration, high unforced errors and trying to hit winners. Changed my tactics to just keeping him rallying, backing off to 60-70% of my usual swing effort and drawing the error from his side or going to net for put aways.

It feels bad being reduced to that but it doesn't make you a worse player, it's just tactics (you know inside you're better anyway) and I won the next two sets. Big lesson for me and extremely satisfying when all the usual excuses started flying out of him afterwards.
 
My definition: a player than inspires rage and causes undignified outbursts.

HELP!

I lose pretty regularly to someone that is probably a pusher, but absolutely a junkballer. Yes, it is obviously true that the issue, such as it is, is my own. I should just get better and beat the person. But it is also true that it is an exceptionally annoying way to play the game.

The way our matches work is that I often start ahead -- say 4-1 in the first set -- and then I get both worn down and totally lose my feel and then absolutely lose my temper (two smashed racquets in the last 12 months). This all happens because, after about 25 balls where I push him deep behind the baseline and come into the net, having to run back to get another lob starts to get a little old (he has an amazingly consistent lob). After I smack back the lobs he then either lobs again or, more likely, just hits soft slice then lob then slice, all of which are geared toward getting me to lose my feel for the game.

I have never really seen him try to dictate a point, never seen him hit a top spin forehand (other than in warm-ups) and until I am exhausted and despondent his only winners (which do happen a bit) are on balls where his lobs send me scurrying for a backhand shot after having come in at which point he will bull rush the net.

But really, he wins because he cultivates an incredible sense of rage in me while wearing down my energy and feel for the game. Short balls that against other people I either put away or pound enough that they send back helpless sitters he (to his credit) gets to enough that I start to launch balls long. Also, because he only hits balls without spin or with slice, I gradually, but surely lose any sense of feel. I spray balls in a way that makes a grown man (me) want to cry.

As this happens I start to hit softer and softer because I don't want to make an error and then not only do I make more errors! putting balls into the net, but I allow him to get comfortable and even put a couple of slices in spots I can't get.

Some of the problem is that I do not volley well enough -- the number of unforced errors I make at the net is really breathtaking -- so he does not worry as much as he should about the fact that I am always able to come in. Or, if my volley is in it too often is playable for him. But even this a bit of a product of his play since against nobody else do I come to the net on nearly every point.

I've tried a few things:
1. Setting up at the net standing sideways so I can more easily get back for the lob. This seems to make my volley % even worse and just gives him a side to choose for the lob.
2. Chip and charge. He plays plenty of doubles so this seems to put him in a new comfort zone. Unless my chip is right on the money so I can immediately put away what he pops up, he enjoys the ping-pong at the net more than I do (see my volley issues above).
3. Send everything to his backhand. This works for a while, but really, after maybe 8-10 points he gets his backhand lob groove on and it is not much of a drop off from his forehand.
4. Methodically swing him side to side, over and over again until I win. This seems like my only hope. It dumps some of the match fatigue onto him, in minimizes the quality of his lobs since they are always both on the run but involved the change of direction and it moves me gradually in to the net where, in theory, I can put away a ball where the geometry is just all in my favor. But the problem here, too, is that as my errors, first long but then into the net, start to pile up, I really lose my way.
5. Don't come to the net at all. This, also, sort of works for a while since I don't get worn out as fast and my long shots decrease. But the problem with this is that I lose my ability to put him away. From behind the baseline, hitting off spinless, loopy balls, he is going to get at whatever I hit him. Even worse, he will start hitting dropshots and slices from behind the baseline.

I sometimes feel like I need an exorcist before I play him because it is mostly the sleeping demons that rise up as the first set unfolds.

Any suggestions?
Also, his first serve is strong. I am lefty, he is righty. Against other people my court coverage is pretty solid. I am not really a baseline basher but I basically try to drive groundstrokes hard and deep to the backhand side of righties and then look for an angle where I can put them away, less with driving power and more with a ground stroke that will bounce a second time just on the outside of the deuce side doubles alley. The 'pro' I am taking lessons with says I am 'working toward being a 4.5' but he does not see these miserable matches against the junkballer, nor the psychological turmoil involved. He also does not really have a sense of how bad my volleys are in a match nor how flummoxed I get by soft, low slice.
 
I went to the tennis courts last week and there was a tennis coach there who was teaching two of his students how to become pushers :shock:
He told them this style would win matches.
 
Post #76... You can't serve and volley against a person like that, you will lose your manners and your mind. That is especially true if your net game is (as you said) not really as precise as you'd like. You need to only hit hard and deep to the baseline. Your post just gave me terrible flashbacks to 16 and under girls tournaments. Unless you can volley confidently at extreme angles you have to just overpower a player like that, and shake off all the points they will inevitably win via your errors. Think of the match as practice and just hammer the ball back as often as possible. What's the worst thing that can happen? You'll lose? That was going to happen anyway if you let the other player dictate your game.
 
Pushers try to play like a back board or wall-return everything and wait for opp error in the rally.

Junk Baller hits a variety of shots and tries to keep the opp from using his pace in the rally.

Moon Baller hits with lots of slow pace-fast top spin so that the T-ball bounces high to backhand and forehand side , many find this uncomfortable and are not in shape enough to hit the ball on the rise consistently to pressure the moon baller into an error, so they pile up unforced errors and lose.

Cheers
3Fees :)
 
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unforced error said:
My definition: a player than inspires rage and causes undignified outbursts.

HELP!

I lose pretty regularly to someone that is probably a pusher, but absolutely a junkballer. Yes, it is obviously true that the issue, such as it is, is my own. I should just get better and beat the person. But it is also true that it is an exceptionally annoying way to play the game.

The way our matches work is that I often start ahead -- say 4-1 in the first set -- and then I get both worn down and totally lose my feel and then absolutely lose my temper (two smashed racquets in the last 12 months). This all happens because, after about 25 balls where I push him deep behind the baseline and come into the net, having to run back to get another lob starts to get a little old (he has an amazingly consistent lob). After I smack back the lobs he then either lobs again or, more likely, just hits soft slice then lob then slice, all of which are geared toward getting me to lose my feel for the game.

I have never really seen him try to dictate a point, never seen him hit a top spin forehand (other than in warm-ups) and until I am exhausted and despondent his only winners (which do happen a bit) are on balls where his lobs send me scurrying for a backhand shot after having come in at which point he will bull rush the net.

But really, he wins because he cultivates an incredible sense of rage in me while wearing down my energy and feel for the game. Short balls that against other people I either put away or pound enough that they send back helpless sitters he (to his credit) gets to enough that I start to launch balls long. Also, because he only hits balls without spin or with slice, I gradually, but surely lose any sense of feel. I spray balls in a way that makes a grown man (me) want to cry.

As this happens I start to hit softer and softer because I don't want to make an error and then not only do I make more errors! putting balls into the net, but I allow him to get comfortable and even put a couple of slices in spots I can't get.

Some of the problem is that I do not volley well enough -- the number of unforced errors I make at the net is really breathtaking -- so he does not worry as much as he should about the fact that I am always able to come in. Or, if my volley is in it too often is playable for him. But even this a bit of a product of his play since against nobody else do I come to the net on nearly every point.

I've tried a few things:
1. Setting up at the net standing sideways so I can more easily get back for the lob. This seems to make my volley % even worse and just gives him a side to choose for the lob.
2. Chip and charge. He plays plenty of doubles so this seems to put him in a new comfort zone. Unless my chip is right on the money so I can immediately put away what he pops up, he enjoys the ping-pong at the net more than I do (see my volley issues above).
3. Send everything to his backhand. This works for a while, but really, after maybe 8-10 points he gets his backhand lob groove on and it is not much of a drop off from his forehand.
4. Methodically swing him side to side, over and over again until I win. This seems like my only hope. It dumps some of the match fatigue onto him, in minimizes the quality of his lobs since they are always both on the run but involved the change of direction and it moves me gradually in to the net where, in theory, I can put away a ball where the geometry is just all in my favor. But the problem here, too, is that as my errors, first long but then into the net, start to pile up, I really lose my way.
5. Don't come to the net at all. This, also, sort of works for a while since I don't get worn out as fast and my long shots decrease. But the problem with this is that I lose my ability to put him away. From behind the baseline, hitting off spinless, loopy balls, he is going to get at whatever I hit him. Even worse, he will start hitting dropshots and slices from behind the baseline.

I sometimes feel like I need an exorcist before I play him because it is mostly the sleeping demons that rise up as the first set unfolds.

Any suggestions?
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See bolded items. Why are you playing someone who makes you feel this way? Tennis is supposed to be fun. Most tennis players are fun to play with so why waste time with someone who isn't?
 
Spin Doctor said:
See bolded items. Why are you playing someone who makes you feel this way? Tennis is supposed to be fun. Most tennis players are fun to play with so why waste time with someone who isn't?
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Fair enough.
Point taken, except he makes my game seem like a fraud (as though the 'glory' of my other, seemingly higher level matches against people also trying to pound the ball is really just brainless mutual assured destruction).

I don't want to feel like a fraud, even in my duffer level.
 
roger-federer-trick-racquet-o.gif
 
unforced error said:
Any suggestions?
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Well, and I don't mean this to be mean or anything, it definitely highlights that you still have a lot of learning ahead of you. But hey, we all started out as a beginner and progressed to whatever level each player on this forum has reached respectively.

That being said, as long as your goal is to "win" in the near future, you're going to be frustrated. I don't think tennis, or anything in life really, is about having fun. Oh, of course it should be fun but not JUST that and it's not always going to be nor should it be. I think this is one of those times and I think as long as your goal is to win "now" I think you're going to continue to kill yourself so to speak.

So what if you decided that winning now wasn't as important as setting yourself up to win later? By that I mean, maybe when you play this guy you pick one specific thing you'd like to be able to do and work on that. Because pushers typically play a ball that is so hard to get a rhythm for, 1. focus in and of itself is the first thing you can work on and 2. work on whatever specific shot you like. So if you want to try and hit "70 mph dtl forehands" then just do that and make that your priority instead. In short, change your goal to something you can do regardless of what the opponent does. Once you start to excel at enough, you will probably just find yourself winning and not realizing it.
 
Yes, at the "pro" level, I would say the Santoro-Federer, both troubled Safin because of the no pace.
 
Safin is not a very good player if he can't handle Santoro's junk. Safin is inferior to Santoro since the person who wins is the better player. Safin needs to improve as a player so his skills are at the 4.5 level. Safin needs TT GOATs to advise him.
 
If you don't have fun playing a pusher, then either that player is not actually a pusher, or, you have no offense.

I love playing a pusher myself, they give you big fluffy meat balls to just tee off on. It's awesome.
 
Bigfoot Fault said:
If you don't have fun playing a pusher, then either that player is not actually a pusher, or, you have no offense.

I love playing a pusher myself, they give you big fluffy meat balls to just tee off on. It's awesome.
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This. Played a self proclaimed 4.5 the other day, he was just giving me meatballs and I was running him around like crazy. Softballs down the middle, overhead smashes...it's fun to play pushers when you have the weapons to beat them. But it's frustrating developing those weapons.
 
Spin Doctor said:
Safin is not a very good player if he can't handle Santoro's junk. Safin is inferior to Santoro since the person who wins is the better player. Safin needs to improve as a player so his skills are at the 4.5 level. Safin needs TT GOATs to advise him.
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Both Safin and Santoro were world-class players. Safin was the better player, but tennis among players with roughly comparable levels can become a game of matchups.

Santoro on himself and Safin:

When Marat arrived on the tour he said, "It's a nightmare for me to play Santoro," but he was young. Talented, but young. Then he became No. 1 and he still said, "It's a nightmare for me to play Santoro." When I beat him in the Olympics in 2000 he had just won the US Open and Tashkent back-to-back and he had won Toronto also and he was No. 1, and I still beat him. Not because I was a better player, but because when I came on the court against him I was already a set and a break up because mentally he was completely down against me. Actually he beat me only once because in Halle [in 2005] I had a match point and I hurt my leg. You don't see this very often against me, retire.

Tactics: I think he was so negative against me and when I said, "If he wants to beat me he can, he's going to do it and he can do it easily," I was really thinking that. He had everything to beat me but he didn't believe in his chances.
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So according to Santoro, Safin was a great player and had the skills to win their matches -- he just didn't have the mental strength to use those skills effectively. Seems reasonable.

At the rec level I think it's more often the case that the players who whine about losing to pushers and junkballers actually lack the skills to beat them. But mental issues may play a role as well.
 
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For me personally, I wanted to play tennis that somewhat emulated the pros I liked to watch on TV i.e. hard baseline exchanges.

When you get a softballer, it's embarrassing just to play on the court, and then when you can't beat them, it's even worse.

I still play them occasionally, just hope no one sees me :)
 
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