Del Potro is going to lose 700 points.

A

andyroddick1

Rookie
Because of the new ranking system, all of the tourny's Delpo won before the US Open will lose a few points except for Washington. Because of this Del Potro loses a minimum of 700 points before going into the US Open and that assuming that he defends all of his victories by beating Roddick in LA and Washington. If he fails to defend Washington he loses another 200 points. So the race for #5 in the world comes down to how well Del Potro defends all his tournaments and even then if Roddick does better than him at one of the masters events and ties Del Potro at the other Roddick becomes the new #5. It becomes even easier for Roddick if he beats Murray but beating Murray will not be easy. Del Potro has a long summer ahead of him.
 
yes del potro created a mini monster for himself by winning 4 straight titles and one finalist appearance... imagine if he gets injured at the first event! he would drop down to number 8 almost instantly. or even worst. If he just spread them out a bit more he woulda had time to defend most of them.
 
MajinX said:
yes del potro created a mini monster for himself by winning 4 straight titles and one finalist appearance... imagine if he gets injured at the first event! he would drop down to number 8 almost instantly. or even worst. If he just spread them out a bit more he woulda had time to defend most of them.
Click to expand...

You take wins whatever you can get.

That reasoning is stupid. Defending points is no easier or harder than earning them in the first place. If defending them all in a row is hard, then take wins at other times! There's no need to defend points, playing in other tournaments gives you the same ranking points, just at slightly different times.

Besides, this summer he gets to play in the Masters Series events, which he could not play last year.
 
Max G. said:
You take wins whatever you can get.

That reasoning is stupid. Defending points is no easier or harder than earning them in the first place. If defending them all in a row is hard, then take wins at other times! There's no need to defend points, playing in other tournaments gives you the same ranking points, just at slightly different times.

Besides, this summer he gets to play in the Masters Series events, which he could not play last year.
Click to expand...

Absolutely right, could not have said it better myself.
 
Actually he probably will loose more. He will loose 500 pts for not defending Kitzbuhel, and as an elite player now i highly doubt he defends his 500 pts in Stutgart (clay). Plus, LA is worth 100 pts less, even if he defends it

Hard not to see Roddick at no 5 going in to the open
 
It's not a problem because he won't be playing those tourneys. He will play the MS and will probably go deep in them and gain enough points to offset all that.
 
Del P is getting screwed by the system. From downgrading of tournaments, he loses 250 points at Stuttgard, even if he were to play it, and 100 from LA. And Kitbuhel has been done away with, along with his 500 points. The only place he can defend his points is in Washington where he holds 350 and the tournament has been upgraded to 500. Still, those are nice problems to have. Without the 1700 points he earned at those tournaments, he would now be #8 instead of #5.

LT
 
Will Del Potro be fine? Yes. Will he remain #5 in the world? Probably not. That has to be a confidence boost for Roddick cus he's been #6 for like forever. Speaking of Roddick...if Djokovic's current form continues Roddick may be able to sneak into the Top 4 by the end of the year.

I did the calculations and there's a good chance Roddick goes into the Masters Cup around 1000 points behind Djokovic.

Points to defends at Masters

Djokovic: 1300

Roddick: 0

If Roddick (And Djokovic for that matter) continue their current form A-Rod may just become #4. (Key Word: IF)
 
Who cares if he drops a couple of spots? Goin deep in Cincinatti, Montreal and the USO is what he has to focus on.
 
random guy said:
Who cares if he drops a couple of spots? Goin deep in Cincinatti, Montreal and the USO is what he has to focus on.
Click to expand...

Why would he drop? He didn't play the HC MS tourneys. He will and he will do well there. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if he reached a final or won one.
 
IvanAndreevich said:
Why would he drop? He didn't play the HC MS tourneys. He will and he will do well there. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if he reached a final or won one.
Click to expand...

I fully expect Del Potro to outperform Djokovic and sadly Nadal (I hope Rafa proves me wrong) this summer. He will be in some semis and maybe even better. I think Federer, Murray, Del Potro, and maybe Roddick will be having the best summer results of anyone this time around.
 
Del Potro is going to lose 700 points.
Click to expand...

That's the claim by andyroddick1.
Below is the proof of that claim.....

andyroddick1 said:
Because of the new ranking system, all of the tourny's Delpo won before the US Open will lose a few points except for Washington.

Because of this Del Potro loses a minimum of 700 points before going into the US Open and that assuming that he defends all of his victories by beating Roddick in LA and Washington. If he fails to defend Washington he loses another 200 points.
Click to expand...

circular reasoning based on the new math! :rolleyes:

please try to lay out a better proof for your prediction than: he WILL lose if he doesn't compete!!! :roll:
 
FedFan_2009 said:
It's ok DelPo will make up the points in the 2 Masters events.
Click to expand...

which points exactly?
4_12_10.gif
 
NadalandFedererfan said:
I fully expect Del Potro to outperform Djokovic and sadly Nadal (I hope Rafa proves me wrong) this summer. He will be in some semis and maybe even better. I think Federer, Murray, Del Potro, and maybe Roddick will be having the best summer results of anyone this time around.
Click to expand...
I agree with you all the way. If Fed wins Wimby, he will have a huge boost of confidence and will very likely start rolling over other players just as he did for years. He is likely to remain #1 perhaps for another year or even two. Depends somewhat on what happens to Nadal. Murray is doing extremely well. So far this year he is like 100% better than during the first half of last year.

As to Del Potro, I think the school is still out. His straight set loss to Hewitt, although explainable, is still kinda sad. You would think he would at least take a set. I mean Hewitt struggled against Stepanek and is Stepanek better than Del Potro? So, lets wait a little on Del P and see how it goes.
 
Leublu tennis said:
As to Del Potro, I think the school is still out. His straight set loss to Hewitt, although explainable, is still kinda sad. You would think he would at least take a set. I mean Hewitt struggled against Stepanek and is Stepanek better than Del Potro? So, lets wait a little on Del P and see how it goes.
Click to expand...

IIRC, youre good on the points issue, LT, soooo .... are you able to make head or tails of the OP? By that I mean, it's a bit of a stupid statement to claim Delpo is going to lose 700 points, isnt it? Can you do the math? because I cant make head or tails out of it. Saying Delpo wont defend his titles is plain stupid, isn't it (all except kitzbuhel which doesnt exist anymore)?
 
del potro is #6 at the race at the moment... if he goes on at the same pace as so far in 2009 (even if he has less success than last year), he'll be fine ! ;)
roddick has a good opportunity to pass him and come back in the top5, but appart from that...
 
vive le beau jeu ! said:
del potro is #6 at the race at the moment... if he goes on at the same pace as so far in 2009 (even if he has less success than last year), he'll be fine ! ;)
roddick has a good opportunity to pass him and come back in the top5, but appart from that...
Click to expand...

i really do appreciate your attempt to clear my cobwebs, but it's still not computing for me .... iow, i just went over to the atp website and found delPotro at No.5, not no.6 ..... what am i missing? :confused: ...... I mean, i understand that some of the others w/b gaining some points this week that delpo doesn't gain ...... but how does that (or whatever) equate to dropping 700 points? ..... i'm mixed up.

2aiitxs.png


http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Singles.aspx
 
Leublu tennis said:
I agree with you all the way. If Fed wins Wimby, he will have a huge boost of confidence and will very likely start rolling over other players just as he did for years. He is likely to remain #1 perhaps for another year or even two. Depends somewhat on what happens to Nadal. Murray is doing extremely well. So far this year he is like 100% better than during the first half of last year.

As to Del Potro, I think the school is still out. His straight set loss to Hewitt, although explainable, is still kinda sad. You would think he would at least take a set. I mean Hewitt struggled against Stepanek and is Stepanek better than Del Potro? So, lets wait a little on Del P and see how it goes.
Click to expand...

On grass??For sure!!!Many times better.
 
Love Game said:
i really do appreciate your attempt to clear my cobwebs, but it's still not computing for me .... iow, i just went over to the atp website and found delPotro at No.5, not no.6 ..... what am i missing? :confused: ...... I mean, i understand that some of the others w/b gaining some points this week that delpo doesn't gain ...... but how does that (or whatever) equate to dropping 700 points? ..... i'm mixed up.

2aiitxs.png


http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Singles.aspx
Click to expand...

ATP Race and ATP Rankings are different. Before the changes the ATP Race was meant for qualification into the Masters Cup because it only took points from the year. At the end of the year the Race and Rankings are the same but since Rankings included points from last year's masters cup and Race didn't it measured who were the Top 8 players from that year.

This being said I don't know where vive le beau jeu found the points for the ATP Race because that system was different.

Here is an example of the ATP Race from this year (That I came up with through self calculations). Roddick was #2 in the ATP Race going into IW cus Fed didn't play any tournaments between the Australian Open and IW and Roddick played the ATP 500 event. So Fed had a total of 120 points in the Race and Roddick had 122 which made him 2nd. Federer was still #2 in the rankings because his results at the FO, Wimby, and USO were calculated into rankings.
 
andyroddick1 said:
ATP Race and ATP Rankings are different. Before the changes the ATP Race was meant for qualification into the Masters Cup because it only took points from the year. At the end of the year the Race and Rankings are the same but since Rankings included points from last year's masters cup and Race didn't it measured who were the Top 8 players from that year.

This being said I don't know where vive le beau jeu found the points for the ATP Race because that system was different.

Here is an example of the ATP Race from this year (That I came up with through self calculations). Roddick was #2 in the ATP Race going into IW cus Fed didn't play any tournaments between the Australian Open and IW and Roddick played the ATP 500 event. So Fed had a total of 120 points in the Race and Roddick had 122 which made him 2nd. Federer was still #2 in the rankings because his results at the FO, Wimby, and USO were calculated into rankings.
Click to expand...

andyroddick1 said:
Where did you find the ATP Race standings?????
Click to expand...

that might be a good point, but since the word "race" was not used in the OP and it's the OP that I find incomprehensible, perhaps the whole "race" thing is a bit of a side issue after all.
 
andyroddick1 said:
ATP Race and ATP Rankings are different. Before the changes the ATP Race was meant for qualification into the Masters Cup because it only took points from the year. At the end of the year the Race and Rankings are the same but since Rankings included points from last year's masters cup and Race didn't it measured who were the Top 8 players from that year.

This being said I don't know where vive le beau jeu found the points for the ATP Race because that system was different.

Here is an example of the ATP Race from this year (That I came up with through self calculations). Roddick was #2 in the ATP Race going into IW cus Fed didn't play any tournaments between the Australian Open and IW and Roddick played the ATP 500 event. So Fed had a total of 120 points in the Race and Roddick had 122 which made him 2nd. Federer was still #2 in the rankings because his results at the FO, Wimby, and USO were calculated into rankings.
Click to expand...

The race shows how well they have performed THIS year alone.So it's more indicating in a way than the rankings,of their current perfomance.Here is the race points for the top 10.
From the calculations of Duong mtf :

AFTER THE QUARTERFINALS:
1 Nadal (ESP) 6 885 (ATP_rk : 1)
2 Federer (SUI) 6 180 (ATP_rk : 2)
3 Murray (GBR) 4 500 (ATP_rk : 3)
4 Djokovic (SRB) 4 060 (ATP_rk : 4)
5 Roddick (USA) 3 160 (+ 1) (ATP_rk : 6)
6 Del Potro (ARG) 2 625 (ATP_rk : 5)
7 Verdasco (ESP) 2 240 (ATP_rk : 9)
8 F Gonzalez (CHI) 1 915 (ATP_rk : 10)
9 Söderling (SWE) 1 830 (ATP_rk : 12)
10 Robredo (ESP) 1 670 (ATP_rk : 14)
 
malakas said:
The race shows how well they have performed THIS year alone.So it's more indicating in a way than the rankings,of their current perfomance.Here is the race points for the top 10.
From the calculations of Duong mtf :

AFTER THE QUARTERFINALS:
1 Nadal (ESP) 6 885 (ATP_rk : 1)
2 Federer (SUI) 6 180 (ATP_rk : 2)
3 Murray (GBR) 4 500 (ATP_rk : 3)
4 Djokovic (SRB) 4 060 (ATP_rk : 4)
5 Roddick (USA) 3 160 (+ 1) (ATP_rk : 6)
6 Del Potro (ARG) 2 625 (ATP_rk : 5)
7 Verdasco (ESP) 2 240 (ATP_rk : 9)
8 F Gonzalez (CHI) 1 915 (ATP_rk : 10)
9 Söderling (SWE) 1 830 (ATP_rk : 12)
10 Robredo (ESP) 1 670 (ATP_rk : 14)
Click to expand...


Good calculations... however you are forgetting one thing.... tournament count... For example Djokovic is probably only over Roddick and Del Po because he played 3 - 4 tourneys more
 
malakas said:
The race shows how well they have performed THIS year alone.So it's more indicating in a way than the rankings,of their current perfomance.Here is the race points for the top 10.
From the calculations of Duong mtf :

AFTER THE QUARTERFINALS:
1 Nadal (ESP) 6 885 (ATP_rk : 1)
2 Federer (SUI) 6 180 (ATP_rk : 2)
3 Murray (GBR) 4 500 (ATP_rk : 3)
4 Djokovic (SRB) 4 060 (ATP_rk : 4)
5 Roddick (USA) 3 160 (+ 1) (ATP_rk : 6)
6 Del Potro (ARG) 2 625 (ATP_rk : 5)
7 Verdasco (ESP) 2 240 (ATP_rk : 9)
8 F Gonzalez (CHI) 1 915 (ATP_rk : 10)
9 Söderling (SWE) 1 830 (ATP_rk : 12)
10 Robredo (ESP) 1 670 (ATP_rk : 14)
Click to expand...

this looks to be getting closer to providing understanding ..... but what is the significance of this "race thing"???

is there a link to something official? :confused:
 
malakas said:
The race shows how well they have performed THIS year alone.So it's more indicating in a way than the rankings,of their current perfomance.Here is the race points for the top 10.
From the calculations of Duong mtf :

AFTER THE QUARTERFINALS:
1 Nadal (ESP) 6 885 (ATP_rk : 1)
2 Federer (SUI) 6 180 (ATP_rk : 2)
3 Murray (GBR) 4 500 (ATP_rk : 3)
4 Djokovic (SRB) 4 060 (ATP_rk : 4)
5 Roddick (USA) 3 160 (+ 1) (ATP_rk : 6)
6 Del Potro (ARG) 2 625 (ATP_rk : 5)
7 Verdasco (ESP) 2 240 (ATP_rk : 9)
8 F Gonzalez (CHI) 1 915 (ATP_rk : 10)
9 Söderling (SWE) 1 830 (ATP_rk : 12)
10 Robredo (ESP) 1 670 (ATP_rk : 14)
Click to expand...
do you know if it takes davis cup points into account ?
 
Leublu tennis said:
I agree with you all the way. If Fed wins Wimby, he will have a huge boost of confidence and will very likely start rolling over other players just as he did for years. He is likely to remain #1 perhaps for another year or even two. Depends somewhat on what happens to Nadal. Murray is doing extremely well. So far this year he is like 100% better than during the first half of last year.

As to Del Potro, I think the school is still out. His straight set loss to Hewitt, although explainable, is still kinda sad. You would think he would at least take a set. I mean Hewitt struggled against Stepanek and is Stepanek better than Del Potro? So, lets wait a little on Del P and see how it goes.
Click to expand...

On grass Stepanek is better than DelPotro. Everywhere else is a different story.
 
TABLE #1
2aiitxs.png


TABLE #2
malakas said:
AFTER THE QUARTERFINALS:
1 Nadal (ESP) 6 885 (ATP_rk : 1)
2 Federer (SUI) 6 180 (ATP_rk : 2)
3 Murray (GBR) 4 500 (ATP_rk : 3)
4 Djokovic (SRB) 4 060 (ATP_rk : 4)
5 Roddick (USA) 3 160 (+ 1) (ATP_rk : 6)
6 Del Potro (ARG) 2 625 (ATP_rk : 5)
7 Verdasco (ESP) 2 240 (ATP_rk : 9)
8 F Gonzalez (CHI) 1 915 (ATP_rk : 10)
9 Söderling (SWE) 1 830 (ATP_rk : 12)
10 Robredo (ESP) 1 670 (ATP_rk : 14)
Click to expand...

okay. here's the comprehension gap: The player in question on this thread being delPotro, table #2 shows JM del Potro having 2,625 points, while the official atp ranking page (table #1) shows Delpo having 5,730 points as of June 22, 2009.

Problem: There's zero explanation of
1. The exact calculations explaining the 3,105 point difference.
2. How that 3,105 point difference will eventually end up on the official ATP website
 
Love Game said:
TABLE #1
2aiitxs.png


TABLE #2


okay. here's the comprehension gap: The player in question on this thread being delPotro, table #2 shows JM del Potro having 2,625 points, while the official atp ranking page (table #1) shows Delpo having 5,730 points as of June 22, 2009.

Problem: There's zero explanation of
1. The exact calculations explaining the 3,105 point difference.
2. How that 3,105 point difference will eventually end up on the official ATP website
Click to expand...
Table 1: ATP Entry Points
Table 2: YTD earned points.
 
Love Game said:
TABLE #1
2aiitxs.png


TABLE #2


okay. here's the comprehension gap: The player in question on this thread being delPotro, table #2 shows JM del Potro having 2,625 points, while the official atp ranking page (table #1) shows Delpo having 5,730 points as of June 22, 2009.

Problem: There's zero explanation of
1. The exact calculations explaining the 3,105 point difference.
2. How that 3,105 point difference will eventually end up on the official ATP website
Click to expand...

oh godd..well :
Table 2 = From January 2009 -till the quarterfinals of Wimby = RACE points
Table 1 = From the end of Wimby 2008-till the start of Wimby 2009 = ATP RANKING points.

I hope you understand now? :)
 
malakas said:
oh godd..well :
Table 2 = From January 2009 -till the quarterfinals of Wimby = RACE points
Table 1 = From the end of Wimby 2008-till the start of Wimby 2009 = ATP RANKING points.

I hope you understand now? :)
Click to expand...

yes. i understand that now thanks to your (and andres) explanation, but what i dont understand is the significance.

namely, the significance that somehow transforms the numbers from table #2 onto the atp official website in such a way as it changes table #1, which is what would have to happen before the scenario outlined in the OP could become a reality.

right?
2ennvw1.gif


===eta

iow, the starting point for the calculations to try to prove the scenario in the OP is table #1. Then, from that starting point, since it's the OP's point, then it's the OP who has to show step by step, tournament by tournament, how the various point values will (supposedly) be deducted from that starting point.

as far as i can see, the biggest problem with the OP is statements which amount to: If Delpo doesn't defend his title, then he'll lose those points. Well duh.
 
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Love Game said:
IIRC, youre good on the points issue, LT, soooo .... are you able to make head or tails of the OP? By that I mean, it's a bit of a stupid statement to claim Delpo is going to lose 700 points, isnt it? Can you do the math? because I cant make head or tails out of it. Saying Delpo wont defend his titles is plain stupid, isn't it (all except kitzbuhel which doesnt exist anymore)?
Click to expand...
O.K. Here is what the OP is saying:

Stuttgard: Del P is defending 500, but the tournament has been downgraded this year to 250. So, if Del P were to win Stuttgard this year he would only gain 250 points. The OP calls this a "loss" of 250 due to the downgrading.

LA: Same kind of thing. Defending 350 but can only win 250. So a "loss" of 100.

Kitzbuhel: Is not played this year. So Del P "loses" his 500 points here.

Washington: Here Del P is defending 350 but the tournament has been upgraded to 500. So he could "gain" 150 points.

The result is Stuttgard (- 250), LA (-100), Kitz (-500) and Wash (+150), which, when added together comes to 700 point net "loss". Qed.

LT
 
Leublu tennis said:
O.K. Here is what the OP is saying:

Stuttgard: Del P is defending 500, but the tournament has been downgraded this year to 250. So, if Del P were to win Stuttgard this year he would only gain 250 points. The OP calls this a "loss" of 250 due to the downgrading.

LA: Same kind of thing. Defending 350 but can only win 250. So a "loss" of 100.

Kitzbuhel: Is not played this year. So Del P "loses" his 500 points here.

Washington: Here Del P is defending 350 but the tournament has been upgraded to 500. So he could "gain" 150 points.

The result is Stuttgard (- 250), LA (-100), Kitz (-500) and Wash (+150), which, when added together comes to 700 point net "loss". Qed.

LT
Click to expand...

Thanks, LT, best explanation yet! :)

hmmm ...... Halle ..... Federer the defending champion 2008 failed to defend his title in 2009 ........ yet look at his rankings on the atp website ........ Halle is not even mentioned, doesnt apper anywhere on fed's page, yet at the same time it does appear on the pages of other players: what's up with that? ........ hopefully, atp will be as generous with ALL other members who fail to defend their 250 titles this year.
 
Love Game said:
Thanks, LT, best explanation yet! :)

hmmm ...... Halle ..... Federer the defending champion 2008 failed to defend his title in 2009 ........ yet look at his rankings on the atp website ........ Halle is not even mentioned, doesnt apper anywhere on fed's page, yet at the same time it does appear on the pages of other players: what's up with that? ........ hopefully, atp will be as generous with ALL other members who fail to defend their 250 titles this year.
Click to expand...
I don't understand your problem with the 2008 Halle points? They are not shown on Federer's, the winner, nor Kohlschreiber, finalist, not Blake or Kiefer, the semi finalists. So what? The 2008 Halle record is history. Its more than 52 weeks away and Federer's points, as well as Kohlschreiber's (155), Blake and Kiefer's 100 are all gone. Or am I missing something in what you are asking?

LT
 
Love Game said:
Thanks, LT, best explanation yet! :)

hmmm ...... Halle ..... Federer the defending champion 2008 failed to defend his title in 2009 ........ yet look at his rankings on the atp website ........ Halle is not even mentioned, doesnt apper anywhere on fed's page, yet at the same time it does appear on the pages of other players: what's up with that? ........ hopefully, atp will be as generous with ALL other members who fail to defend their 250 titles this year.
Click to expand...

This rant does actually make less sense than the OP. If you don't understand how the rankings work, I guess you should stop discussing them, cause you really seem to have no clue.

Yes Federer did not play Halle this year, so his points were removed. Perfectly normal. What is the connection with a so-called "generosity" of the ATP?
 
sdont said:
This rant does actually make less sense than the OP. If you don't understand how the rankings work, I guess you should stop discussing them, cause you really seem to have no clue.

Yes Federer did not play Halle this year, so his points were removed. Perfectly normal. What is the connection with a so-called "generosity" of the ATP?
Click to expand...

prove it, fedlover! :razz:
 
Last edited:
Leublu tennis said:
I don't understand your problem with the 2008 Halle points? They are not shown on Federer's, the winner, nor Kohlschreiber, finalist, not Blake or Kiefer, the semi finalists. So what? The 2008 Halle record is history. Its more than 52 weeks away and Federer's points, as well as Kohlschreiber's (155), Blake and Kiefer's 100 are all gone. Or am I missing something in what you are asking?

LT
Click to expand...

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Novak-Djokovic.aspx?t=rb

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Tommy-Haas.aspx?t=rb
 
sdont said:
This rant does actually make less sense than the OP. If you don't understand how the rankings work, I guess you should stop discussing them, cause you really seem to have no clue.

Yes Federer did not play Halle this year, so his points were removed. Perfectly normal. What is the connection with a so-called "generosity" of the ATP?
Click to expand...

Love Game said:
prove it! :razz:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Roger-Federer.aspx?t=rb
Click to expand...

Love Game said:
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Novak-Djokovic.aspx?t=rb

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Tommy-Haas.aspx?t=rb
Click to expand...
so yes, djokovic and haas get their 2009 halle points because they played and reached the final, and federer gets nothing because he didn't play. everything is in order, isn't it ?
 
sdont said:
You want me to prove something? what exactly?

You gave the link that is proof that Federer no longer has any point for Halle. Meaning he lost the 250 points corresponding to this tournament. What else do you want?
Click to expand...

wimbledon with a 0 beside it :twisted:
 
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