Dent-Resistant Poly Crosses

[Astonish]

TL;DR: Discuss which polys are most dent resistant when used as a cross. Specifically interested in how Head Hawk and Kirschbaum Max Power compare in this regard, if anyone can A/B those two.


Hello,

I’m curious if anyone knows which polys have the highest surface hardness. Note: this is not synonymous with stiffness (although I do prefer stiffer polys, myself). For example, Luxilon 4G is very stiff for a poly, however the surface hardness is rather soft, and as a result it can dent very easily when used as a cross.

I use a very tight and stiff stringbed, but as long as the poly crosses have a hard enough surface to stay dent-free, I do not notice any discomfort, as the mains are able to continue snapping back freely. As soon as the poly cross forms a dent, however, the mains will stop snapping back as freely and that’s when issues arise for me.

I wish there was a TWU database (or similar) for surface hardness, but I haven’t found such a resource. As a result, I’ve simply done a lot of forum searching and came up with these findings:

- Kirschbaum Max Power
- Head Hawk
- MSV Focus Hex
- Technifibre 4S
- Babooat RPM Blast

I’ve also read of users doing a “bend test” in order to estimate how the surface’s hardness might hold up. From what I understand, they would simply take a small piece of the string, and then bend it at the end (like nearly in half…) and then straighten it out afterwards. If the string discolored in any meaningful way, if it bubbled/rippled, or if it showed any noticeable wear, then it might have a soft enough surface that it will dent under high tension / heavy hitting. On the contrary, the polys that looked unaffected after the bend test, tended to dent the least. From what I’ve read, the strings above should perform pretty well in the bend test.

If anyone here is able to compare the dent resistance of these strings (specifically the Head Hawk and Kirschbaum Max Power, as those are the two I am most interested in), then I’d really love to hear from you. And of course if there are any alternative suggestions, for polys with a very hard surface, I’m open to any new ideas.

P.S. Bonus points if the poly cross has high stiffness, good tension maintenance, and is round instead of shaped. Kirschbaum Max Power and Head Hawk seem to fit these criteria, hence my interest in these two specifically, and how they compare with denting over time.

 

[esgee48]

So what ref tensions are you using?

I disagree with your assessment that regular 4G is a soft surfaced string. I have use the 16 ga 1.30mm version and that was not soft surfaced.

Depending on your answer to my question, RPM Team or ZX manually prestretched.

 

[Chalkdust]

Just curious: Do you find that your crosses dent faster than your mains notch?
Because for me, the mains are significantly notched by the time the crosses are dented.
And the notching means increased surface area on the mains in contact with the crosses, which means more friction, which means decreased snap back.
Are you sure that's not what is really happening?

 

[LOBALOT]

Just curious: Do you find that your crosses dent faster than your mains notch?
Because for me, the mains are significantly notched by the time the crosses are dented.
And the notching means increased surface area on the mains in contact with the crosses, which means more friction, which means decreased snap back.
Are you sure that's not what is really happening?

I always wonder about that when I see these posts as I agree with you. A vast majority of the time I see notched mains not dented crosses.

 

[Astonish]

So what ref tensions are you using?

I disagree with your assessment that regular 4G is a soft surfaced string. I have use the 16 ga 1.30mm version and that was not soft surfaced.

Depending on your answer to my question, RPM Team or ZX manually prestretched.

I’ve posted a good bit about this in the Kev/ZX thread (and you’ve been nice enough to respond to me over there as well), so apologies in advance if you’ve seen/heard this already, haha.

I used 4G 16g 1.30mm as the cross to my 16g Ashaway Kevlar, and within about 1-2 hours of just hitting the wall, this was the denting that started to take place: https://ibb.co/qpRGmyg

I wish I took another photo after many more hours/days, but suffice to say it got more severe than that initial photo, and the Kevlar mains stopped snapping back as well.

I usually use ZX Pro 17g black as my cross, and the denting is obviously greatly reduced due to the surface hardness of zyex. However, I can’t string it above 60lbs as a cross, and I’d like to go tighter (hence my exploration for poly cross alternatives).

My reference tension is 60lbs for the Kevlar mains, and 60lbs for the ZXP crosses (or 4G crosses), after manually prestretching 20 feet of the zyex about 24-27 inches, the 4G about 6-8 inches, and the kevlar about 2-3 inches. I could do a differential with mains higher than 60, to tighten things up more, but I’ve been weary of hoop deformation on my flexible PT57As, and @travlerajm documented his switch back to no differential as well (to avoid racquet properties changing as hoop squash lessens over time), so I’ve been following his expertise there.

Someone on these forums who did a lot of “bend testing” of different poly crosses, explained why they thought RPM Team wasn’t as good at resisting denting, as RPM Blast was. Even though RPM Team is the superior choice in terms of stiffness and tension maintenance (very similar to 4G in this regard, as you know), the RPM Team also has some air bubbles in it apparently, whereas RPM Blast is more solid… so when he performed the bend test, the RPM Team compressed, dented, and didn’t return without noticeable damage, whereas the RPM Blast snapped back much more strongly, and was less dent-prone due to the harder surface (again, just reiterating his findings - I didn’t do this myself!). But the long story short was that he found surface hardness to be a much better measure of dent resistance, as opposed to just stiffness (he also loved stiff prestretched 4G, but found the surface to be soft and dent easily - as did I).

The findings I saw were that Head Hawk, Kirschbaum Max Power, MSV Focus Hex, Technifibre 4S, and RPM Blast, all had fairly good dent resistance. I’m going to string up some Head Hawk and Kirschbaum Max Power next, and see how they hold up under 60/60 with my kevlar mains, but I wanted to ask around here first in case anyone was more experienced with finding hard-to-dent poly crosses, and knew which ones I might be best off trying first.

 

[LOBALOT]

In the case of Kevlar against a 4G cross I can see it but most people are not playing a stiffer main than cross when one is talking 4G as being that cross.

 

[Astonish]

Just curious: Do you find that your crosses dent faster than your mains notch?
Because for me, the mains are significantly notched by the time the crosses are dented.
And the notching means increased surface area on the mains in contact with the crosses, which means more friction, which means decreased snap back.
Are you sure that's not what is really happening?

I always wonder about that when I see these posts as I agree with you. A vast majority of the time I see notched mains not dented crosses.

Hey guys, thanks for your thoughts. Yes, I am sure that it’s early denting of the poly cross, well before the mains begin to notch. As mentioned above, I use 16g kevlar mains, and it takes some more hours for serious notching and fraying to happen on the mains. Whereas the poly crosses start to dent within the first hour or two. There’s a picture above for reference, but like I said in the last post, I wish I took a follow-up photo a couple days later, when the denting was more pronounced than just hour 1. Either way, it does start to prohibit the mains from snapping back as freely (compared to something like zyex where it stays hard and provides perfect snapback with zero denting). I’m hoping Head Hawk or Kirschbaum Max Power might be better in this regard, than the 4G 16g was. But like I said, I’m open to any other suggestions!

 

[Astonish]

In the case of Kevlar against a 4G cross I can see it but most people are not playing a stiffer main than cross when one is talking 4G as being that cross.

Yep! I totally agree

My tight kevlar mains are why I need an exceptionally hard-surfaced poly as the cross. If I can’t find one hard enough to resist severe denting, then I’ll just go back to zyex (no denting, but can’t take it above 60lbs like I could if I found a suitable poly).

 

[travlerajm]

I’ve posted a good bit about this in the Kev/ZX thread (and you’ve been nice enough to respond to me over there as well), so apologies in advance if you’ve seen/heard this already, haha.

I used 4G 16g 1.30mm as the cross to my 16g Ashaway Kevlar, and within about 1-2 hours of just hitting the wall, this was the denting that started to take place: https://ibb.co/qpRGmyg

I wish I took another photo after many more hours/days, but suffice to say it got more severe than that initial photo, and the Kevlar mains stopped snapping back as well.

I usually use ZX Pro 17g black as my cross, and the denting is obviously greatly reduced due to the surface hardness of zyex. However, I can’t string it above 60lbs as a cross, and I’d like to go tighter (hence my exploration for poly cross alternatives).

My reference tension is 60lbs for the Kevlar mains, and 60lbs for the ZXP crosses (or 4G crosses), after manually prestretching 20 feet of the zyex about 24-27 inches, the 4G about 6-8 inches, and the kevlar about 2-3 inches. I could do a differential with mains higher than 60, to tighten things up more, but I’ve been weary of hoop deformation on my flexible PT57As, and @travlerajm documented his switch back to no differential as well (to avoid racquet properties changing as hoop squash lessens over time), so I’ve been following his expertise there.

Someone on these forums who did a lot of “bend testing” of different poly crosses, explained why they thought RPM Team wasn’t as good at resisting denting, as RPM Blast was. Even though RPM Team is the superior choice in terms of stiffness and tension maintenance (very similar to 4G in this regard, as you know), the RPM Team also has some air bubbles in it apparently, whereas RPM Blast is more solid… so when he performed the bend test, the RPM Team compressed, dented, and didn’t return without noticeable damage, whereas the RPM Blast snapped back much more strongly, and was less dent-prone due to the harder surface (again, just reiterating his findings - I didn’t do this myself!). But the long story short was that he found surface hardness to be a much better measure of dent resistance, as opposed to just stiffness (he also loved stiff prestretched 4G, but found the surface to be soft and dent easily - as did I).

The findings I saw were that Head Hawk, Kirschbaum Max Power, MSV Focus Hex, Technifibre 4S, and RPM Blast, all had fairly good dent resistance. I’m going to string up some Head Hawk and Kirschbaum Max Power next, and see how they hold up under 60/60 with my kevlar mains, but I wanted to ask around here first in case anyone was more experienced with finding hard-to-dent poly crosses, and knew which ones I might be best off trying first.

Babolat pro xtreme is the best poly substitute for zx crosses with kevlar mains I’ve come across. More dent-resistant compared to other poly’s, and feels a bit stiff and wire-like when stringing.

 

[Astonish]

Babolat pro xtreme is the best poly substitute for zx crosses with kevlar mains I’ve come across. More dent-resistant compared to other poly’s, and feels a bit stiff and wire-like when stringing.

Hey, great to hear from you

I’ll add pro xtreme to the list of test candidates - thanks! I’m assuming that means you liked it more than the Prince Tournament Poly you used prior to that…

How would you say the pro xtreme held up compared to the gold standard of zyex (in terms of denting)… are we talking no harmful denting at all?

 

[travlerajm]

Hey, great to hear from you

I’ll add pro xtreme to the list of test candidates - thanks! I’m assuming that means you liked it more than the Prince Tournament Poly you used prior to that…

How would you say the pro xtreme held up compared to the gold standard of zyex (in terms of denting)… are we talking no harmful denting at all?

Babolat extreme doesn’t dent noticeably when used as a cross with kevlar. Similar to zx but stiffer. It doesn’t even dent when used in full poly bed (the mains groove but crosses stay smooth). It is not quite as glassy surfaced as price tournament poly, but ptp has lousy tension maintenance, while xtreme holds decently when prestretched. xtreme starts out almost too slippery but gets a little less smooth after first hour and plays same after that.

 

[Chalkdust]

Hey guys, thanks for your thoughts. Yes, I am sure that it’s early denting of the poly cross, well before the mains begin to notch. As mentioned above, I use 16g kevlar mains, and it takes some more hours for serious notching and fraying to happen on the mains. Whereas the poly crosses start to dent within the first hour or two. There’s a picture above for reference, but like I said in the last post, I wish I took a follow-up photo a couple days later, when the denting was more pronounced than just hour 1. Either way, it does start to prohibit the mains from snapping back as freely (compared to something like zyex where it stays hard and provides perfect snapback with zero denting). I’m hoping Head Hawk or Kirschbaum Max Power might be better in this regard, than the 4G 16g was. But like I said, I’m open to any other suggestions!

Gotch, sorry I was assuming poly/poly, did not realize you have kevlar mains and at such high tension to boot.
I'm gonna see myself out of this thread now before my elbow starts experiencing sympathy pains...

 

[Astonish]

Babolat extreme doesn’t dent noticeably when used as a cross with kevlar. Similar to zx but stiffer. It doesn’t even dent when used in full poly bed (the mains groove but crosses stay smooth). It is not quite as glassy surfaced as price tournament poly, but ptp has lousy tension maintenance, while xtreme holds decently when prestretched. xtreme starts out almost too slippery but gets a little less smooth after first hour and plays same after that.

Good to know, thank you! And FYI for anyone else reading this, it seems Babolat changed the name of Pro Xtreme to Pro Last a couple years ago. Seems like it can only be purchased in reels, too.

I think I’ll try to compare Pro Last, Hawk, and Max Power, and then discard Focus Hex, 4S, and RPM Blast, under the assumption that the former (round polys) might be better than the latter (shaped polys) when used as a slick cross against kevlar mains.

Will share findings if anything notable pops up from the poly testing. And then if all else fails, I’ll just settle with 60lb zyex again and experiment with small differentials before hoop squashing begins.

 

[Chalkdust]

Good to know, thank you! And FYI for anyone else reading this, it seems Babolat changed the name of Pro Xtreme to Pro Last a couple years ago. Seems like it can only be purchased in reels, too.

I think I’ll try to compare Pro Last, Hawk, and Max Power, and then discard Focus Hex, 4S, and RPM Blast, under the assumption that the former (round polys) might be better than the latter (shaped polys) when used as a slick cross against kevlar mains.

Will share findings if anything notable pops up from the poly testing. And then if all else fails, I’ll just settle with 60lb zyex again and experiment with small differentials before hoop squashing begins.

If you liked Focus Hex but want round rather than shaped, then I believe Co-Focus may be the same material composition but round. Not 100% sure though.

 

[Astonish]

Gotch, sorry I was assuming poly/poly, did not realize you have kevlar mains and at such high tension to boot.
I'm gonna see myself out of this thread now before my elbow starts experiencing sympathy pains...

It’s the freedom for mains to slide over crosses, with no interruptions from denting, that allows for comfortable snapback. When poly/poly starts to lock up from dented crosses, I immediately notice increased shoulder soreness (of course the correct thing to do, would be to cut out the poly before it locks up from denting). On the other hand, even extremely stiff kevlar will not cause an ounce of arm soreness, if the crosses do not dent and the kevlar is allowed to slide freely back and forth. This has of course been highly contested on this forum (denting and notching causing pain vs. high stiffness causing pain), and my first hand experience also aligns with the fact that stiffness isn’t the issue, nearly as much as freedom to move. In the juniors, I used “softer” polys thinking it would help my arm, but sure enough soreness persisted because the strings would dent eventually. Now, using kevlar mains against slippery poly or zyex crosses, I have absolutely zero pain as long as the crosses stay dent free. But that’s not what this thread is about, and it’s been debated for years on this forum, so I’m just leaving my 2 cents and will try not to derail from the original topic any further

 

[Astonish]

If you liked Focus Hex but want round rather than shaped, then I believe Co-Focus may be the same material composition but round. Not 100% sure though.

Yep, this is correct!

 

[Chalkdust]

It’s the freedom for mains to slide over crosses, with no interruptions from denting, that allows for comfortable snapback. When poly/poly starts to lock up from dented crosses, I immediately notice increased shoulder soreness (of course the correct thing to do, would be to cut out the poly before it locks up from denting). On the other hand, even extremely stiff kevlar will not cause an ounce of arm soreness, if the crosses do not dent and the kevlar is allowed to slide freely back and forth. This has of course been highly contested on this forum (denting and notching causing pain vs. high stiffness causing pain), and my first hand experience also aligns with the fact that stiffness isn’t the issue, nearly as much as freedom to move. In the juniors, I used “softer” polys thinking it would hell my arm, but sure enough soreness persisted because the strings would dent eventually. Now, using kevlar mains against slippery poly or zyex crosses, I have absolutely zero pain as long as the crosses stay dent free. But that’s not what this thread is about, and it’s been debated for years on this forum, so I’m just leaving my 2 cents and will try not to derail from the original topic any further

Understood, I'm just conditioned to cringe at anything that stiff!

 

[Astonish]

Understood, I'm just conditioned to cringe at anything that stiff!

Haha, I think most of us in tennis have been. If it wasn’t for some of the knowledgeable tinkerers on this forum, I would probably still assume that stiffness and arm soreness were directly proportional. Knowing what I do now, there are so many more viable options for me to explore on the court, and at extremes that really allow me to substantially tweak my game, while staying pain free. Very grateful

 

[esgee48]

Thanks for clarifying using Kevlar mains.

@graycrait used Kevlar/ZX at lower tension differentials so maybe the tag will get him to chime in.

Prince Tournament Poly is a first gen poly. Pretty sure Bab Extreme is too. Does Duralast still exists? Most all polys on the market are copolys which means less stiff and less hard. So called 1st gen polys still exist, but I am not sure if their formulation are unchanged. Good luck.

 

[Astonish]

Thanks for clarifying using Kevlar mains.

@graycrait used Kevlar/ZX at lower tension differentials so maybe the tag will get him to chime in.

Prince Tournament Poly is a first gen poly. Pretty sure Bab Extreme is too. Does Duralast still exists? Most all polys on the market are copolys which means less stiff and less hard. So called 1st gen polys still exist, but I am not sure if their formulation are unchanged. Good luck.

Thanks, esgee! I agree that 1st gen polys may be a good camp to explore, given that new gen polys are often formulated to be softer. I’ll head down the rabbit hole. Appreciate your help

 

[WYK]

Try a full bed of RPM Rough 125 gauge.
Also, I just tested Confidential 130 on top of KB Max Power 130 in a Prince Textreme Tour 100 at 53lbsX51lbs and found great control and spin, with just a touch more power than I care for(I would string it at 55lbs in this racquet if I were to use it). I still think TB 120 on top of KB has more control for me at nearly any tension in this tt100.

 

[Astonish]

Final update post on this can be read here:

In praise of Kevlar/ZX hybrid!!!

Following up on the ZXP vs 4G cross dilemma… The 4G did end up notching a bit more than I’d like to see. Granted, the 16g Kevlar was already sawed through surprisingly quickly, but along the way I did notice that the 4G didn’t stay as dent-free as I would’ve hoped. I’m going back to a ZXP...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

TL;DR: All tested polys were denting far more than zx, so just returning to zx and living with the 60lb limitation.

 

[legcramp]

Good update, I also found the same thing but luckily for me the ZX cross plays even better for me a week later. The poly tour spin I use on the mains are getting dented but still slides freely on the ZX. I still get crazy spin and even more power & pace hitting as hard as I can even in the fourth session on the same stringbed. I wish I have found ZX as a cross sooner.

 

[Astonish]

Babolat extreme doesn’t dent noticeably when used as a cross with kevlar. Similar to zx but stiffer. It doesn’t even dent when used in full poly bed (the mains groove but crosses stay smooth). It is not quite as glassy surfaced as price tournament poly, but ptp has lousy tension maintenance, while xtreme holds decently when prestretched. xtreme starts out almost too slippery but gets a little less smooth after first hour and plays same after that.

Hey, following up on this randomly. I’m thinking of ordering a reel of Pro Last (the rename of Xtreme) from TW Europe, and just having it shipped to the US. I know this is getting nitpicky, but would you say Pro Last / Xtreme has dent resistance that is on par with ZX? While I’d love a stiffer cross, I’m not willing to use anything that dents even an ounce more than ZX. Just curious (before shipping from overseas) if this is simply the least-bad poly for denting, or if it actually is on par / better than ZX in this regard.

Thanks as always for your thoughts

 

[Astonish]

Hey, following up on this randomly. I’m thinking of ordering a reel of Pro Last (the rename of Xtreme) from TW Europe, and just having it shipped to the US. I know this is getting nitpicky, but would you say Pro Last / Xtreme has dent resistance that is on par with ZX? While I’d love a stiffer cross, I’m not willing to use anything that dents even an ounce more than ZX. Just curious (before shipping from overseas) if this is simply the least-bad poly for denting, or if it actually is on par / better than ZX in this regard.

Thanks as always for your thoughts

@travlerajm, just thought I’d bump this one more time before I end up placing an order through TW Europe

 

[travlerajm]

@travlerajm, just thought I’d bump this one more time before I end up placing an order through TW Europe

For dent resistance, both zx and xtreme pro hold up fine without showing any noticeable denting after many hours of play as a cross with kev mains.. I have never recycled xtreme. But you probably could.

 

[travlerajm]

@travlerajm, just thought I’d bump this one more time before I end up placing an order through TW Europe

I’d add that even with kev mains, xtreme starts out “too slippery” with higher launch angle due to kevlar sliding further in plane, but the too-slippery goes away after first hit as the kevlar polishes it. It plays more like a stiffer version of zx after that.

 

[Astonish]

For dent resistance, both zx and xtreme pro hold up fine without showing any noticeable denting after many hours of play as a cross with kev mains.. I have never recycled xtreme. But you probably could.

Great, thanks @travlerajm! I’ll order a reel of Pro Last then (Xtreme) in hopes that I’ll finally have access to a poly cross with the dent resistance of my ZX setups. Have you noticed any differences in silver vs black Xtreme, coating-wise? I prefer black ZX over natural (for the reduced friction), so I wasn’t sure if you had any similar findings with silver vs black Xtreme.

P.S. Off-topic, but congrats on the consistent success throughout this whole journey. Makes me very happy to read your updates lately

 

[travlerajm]

Great, thanks @travlerajm! I’ll order a reel of Pro Last then (Xtreme) in hopes that I’ll finally have access to a poly cross with the dent resistance of my ZX setups. Have you noticed any differences in silver vs black Xtreme, coating-wise? I prefer black ZX over natural (for the reduced friction), so I wasn’t sure if you had any similar findings with silver vs black Xtreme.

P.S. Off-topic, but congrats on the consistent success throughout this whole journey lately. Makes me very happy to see & read your updates

I’ve only tried xtreme in the silver 1.25

 

[Astonish]

I’d add that even with kev mains, xtreme starts out “too slippery” with higher launch angle due to kevlar sliding further in plane, but the too-slippery goes away after first hit as the kevlar polishes it. It plays more like a stiffer version of zx after that.

That’s exactly what I’m looking for!

I’ve only tried xtreme in the silver 1.25

I think I may try 1.30 this time (usually use 17g zyex), in the hopes that a thicker gauge lets me maintain the same power level while stringing at a lower tension (looking to go looser for decreased interstring friction). Not sure if my thought process is correct here, though

 

[Trip]

@Astonish - I'm somewhat surprised that Pro's Pro Concept hasn't yet been mentioned. If you search for it in the forums, you'll see references of it being pretty darn slick and fairly un-dent-able, while also not being i-beam stiff (ala 4G) either. I would imagine (hope?) that means it would last decently long when paired with Ashaway Kevlar mains. I'm actually kind of curious to see how that would pan out myself, and may try it, then report back.

 

[Astonish]

@Astonish - I'm somewhat surprised that Pro's Pro Concept hasn't yet been mentioned. If you search for it in the forums, you'll see references of it being pretty darn slick and fairly un-dent-able, while also not being i-beam stiff (ala 4G) either. I would imagine (hope?) that means it would last decently long when paired with Ashaway Kevlar mains. I'm actually kind of curious to see how that would pan out myself, and may try it, then report back.

Thanks for letting me know! I'll have to try it (along with Pro Last) to see how they both fare with denting under kev mains. If you do get around to trying Concept as a cross to Ashaway Kevlar mains, I'd love to hear back from you on how it holds up!

 

[yogictennis]

Resurrecting an old thread as I am also looking for the most dent resistant poly. I am stringing for someone that hits very big flat serves and flat forehands, and I am finding that most polys dent and lock up within 3-4 hours. Best I have found so far is Head Hawk original, but wondering if there are other options.

 

[JOSHL]

Resurrecting an old thread as I am also looking for the most dent resistant poly. I am stringing for someone that hits very big flat serves and flat forehands, and I am finding that most polys dent and lock up within 3-4 hours. Best I have found so far is Head Hawk original, but wondering if there are other options.

Toroline wasabi X is very good for this.