Despite all the Alcaraz #1 criticism, he’s only 70 points behind Novak in the WTF race

Razer said:
Anyway, Djokovic is superior to Nadal and Federer, he always has been, thats why he could come from far behind and overtake them. He also has highest peak (objective fact - 16950 points), not your subjective 08-10 periods or 04-07 period for the other 2 guys. These are objective facts that won't change. Hope you come to terms with at least this :happydevil:
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Oh man, I’m so sorry, it seems like you got your words confused. Did you mean to say that Novak is younger than fed and has less mileage than rafa, and as such could overtake them?

Remember — 3 heads of the same GOAT. The big 3 will be linked forever.
 
Aussie Darcy said:
I’m no Alcaraz fan but am seeing incredible laughter here at Carlos being #1 over Novak. But if you look at the 2023 race to the World Tour Finals, Alcaraz is actually challenging Novak and is only 70 points behind. Pretty close I’d say.

Djokovic is on 4,745 points
Alcaraz on 4,675 points.

Alcaraz with the far superior win loss this year:
Buenos Aires champ (4 wins)
Rio runner up (4 wins, 1 loss to #13 Norrie)
Indian Wells champ (6 wins, 2 against top 10 players)
Miami SFist (4 wins, 1 against top 10 player, 1 loss to #12 Sinner)
Barcelona champ (5 wins, 1 against a top 10 player)
Madrid champ (6 wins)
Rome 3R (1 win, 1 loss)
French Open SF (5 wins, 1 top 10 win. 1 loss to #3 Djokovic)
Queens champ (5 wins)

40 wins and 4 losses. 5 titles.

Djokovic:
Adelaide champ (5 wins, 1 against a top 10 player)
Aus Open champ (7 wins, 2 against top 10 players)
Dubai SF (3 wins, 1 loss to #7 Medvedev).
Monte Carlo 3R (1 win, 1 loss to #21 Musetti)
Bosnia QF (1 win, 1 loss to #70 Lajovic)
Rome QF (3 wins, 1 loss to #7 Rune)
RG champ (7 wins, 2 against top 10 players)

27 wins and 4 losses. 3 titles.

Now this isn’t to say Novak isn’t the clear #1 right now with 3 slams and the whole Wimbledon points debacle, but looking at this year, it’s actually pretty close on the points.
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Novak is NOT a clear #1. It is a simple math and another proof that the Tour is not all about slams. 4 slams give you 8000 points and back in the day, when things were normal, 8000 points would not give you automatic first (or second) place. The bottom line is:
1) Novak has not done much at the first 5 M1000, and is 13 match wins behind Alcaraz for 2023.
2) Novak only cares about Slams at this point of his career
 
Chanwan said:
Plus Astana, Tel Aviv and Adelaide - beat some pretty decent players too. One could argue some of the draws were tougher than his AO draw

He lost the Paris final btw (Rune)
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Did he play adelaide? Did not catch that, yeah he did good those tournaments ok, lets see this season, on paper we could have maybe 2 or more alcaraz-djokovic matches during the rest of the season and things might change completly, at least in peoples minds
 
Slicehand said:
Did he play adelaide? Did not catch that, yeah he did good those tournaments ok, lets see this season, on paper we could have maybe 2 or more alcaraz-djokovic matches during the rest of the season and things might change completly, at least in peoples minds
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Outside of Laver Cup (1 win, 1 loss), he had one loss for 7-8 months from Wimbledon to Australia. The Paris final to Rune. Everything else, he participated in, he won. Check his ATP site if you wanna see the players. Beat Medvedev and a very good Korda in Adelaide for instance iirc. Beat Medv. & Tsitsipas in Astana.

Alcaraz needs to play and beat Novak in a slam, before it changes much in peoples' mind imo. 2-3 non-slams will help, but there will still be: But he lost the big one. And sh*t his pants in the big one.
In 2015, old man Federer went 3-5 vs. peak Novak. But he lost the W, US & WTF final and that's primarily what we remember.
 
FEDERERNADAL13 said:
Oh man, I’m so sorry, it seems like you got your words confused. Did you mean to say that Novak is younger than fed and has less mileage than rafa, and as such could overtake them?

Remember — 3 heads of the same GOAT. The big 3 will be linked forever.
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What mileage ? This is not a car for counting mileage, Rafa has a significant advantage over Novak of maturing early into Federer's weak era. He was ranked 2 at 19 which is only possible in a weak era, secondly he gained 8 slams lead over Novak by 2010 and yet Novak bypassed all that.

In real life we know if we lag behind people of our same age getting a headstart then it becomes harder to bypass all that, rarely people do. This is applicable in all careers, not just sports.

So you are saying mileage ? Lol .... Djoker is the absolute best of the best ....The Greatest of the 21st Century.

Federer had it tough in his 30s but he enjoyed his 20s with super weak competition....So it evens out.
 
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Chanwan said:
Outside of Laver Cup (1 win, 1 loss), he had one loss for 7-8 months from Wimbledon to Australia. The Paris final to Rune. Everything else, he participated in, he won. Check his ATP site if you wanna see the players. Beat Medvedev and a very good Korda in Adelaide for instance iirc. Beat Medv. & Tsitsipas in Astana.

Alcaraz needs to play and beat Novak in a slam, before it changes much in peoples' mind imo. 2-3 non-slams will help, but there will still be: But he lost the big one. And sh*t his pants in the big one.
In 2015, old man Federer went 3-5 vs. peak Novak. But he lost the W, US & WTF final and that's primarily what we remember.
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You all making a big fuzz about one match, ****ted his pants bla bla bla, he had just won the second set when he "****ted his pants", stop being silly, also if thats what you remember then you must remember all the horrible performances and retirements novak had at alcaraz age, that without the fact that he couldnt even dream of playing the way carlos plays, the highest peak of tennis has been shown by alcaraz this season, but he still needs experience in other things, novak with his experience and pacing, and a shorter calendar, is doing his thing, great, good battle for tennis fans, but discredit all what alcaraz is doing because he had physical problems in a match is being big time shorted minded IMHO
 
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tennis_error said:
WTF race has nothing to do with No1, except at the very end of the year when lists are equal... And we are in June... Some knowledge is need if you wanna quality comment tennis...
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ITA. The OP knows this and is trying to muddy the waters. It’s close for the race since Novak won the slams and Alcaraz/Meddy won everything else. But Novak would not have lost #1 if Wimbledon would have been given points…which is a different matter altogether.
 
onyxrose81 said:
ITA. The OP knows this and is trying to muddy the waters. It’s close for the race since Novak won the slams and Alcaraz/Meddy won everything else. But Novak would not have lost #1 if Wimbledon would have been given points…which is a different matter altogether.
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Would it be fair that wimbledon gave points when medvedev wasnt allowed to play? Many good players novak didnt have to worry about and ended up playing a final against a player that has never tied a week of good playing , he went to 5 with freaking nakashima for gods shake, very easy draw except for sinner, but whatever, just wanted to say
 
Slicehand said:
You all making a big fuzz about one match, ****ted his pants bla bla bla, he had just won the second set when he "****ted his pants", stop being silly, also if thats what you remember then you must remember all the horrible performances and retirements novak had at alcaraz age, that without the fact that he couldnt even dream of playing the way carlos plays, the highest peak of tennis has been shown by alcaraz this season, but he still needs experience in other things, novak with his experience and pacing, and a shorter calendar, is doing his thing, great, good battle for tennis fans, but discredit all what alcaraz is doing because he had physical problems in a match is being big time shorted minded IMHO
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You are WAY too aggressive for me to be debating with you on this.
I said: "before it changes much in peoples' mind imo. 2-3 non-slams will help, but there will still be: But he lost the big one. And sh*t his pants in the big one".
Yet you go on to attack me.
Fwiw, I'm an Alcaraz fan, not a Novak fan - bye for now
 
Bambooman said:
You're seeing laughter because Djokovic showed he's better and then Carlos moved back ahead because Djokovic hasn't played.

That's basically a mini version of last year.
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Hold on Djokovic showed he's better? When? Last I checked they were tied 1-1 with the momentum on Alcaraz side before Alcaraz body gave out. So I'm not seeing where Djokovic is better, BUT I am seeing Djokovic having a much less frail stronger body physically better suited to the rigors of high level tennis
 
"Federer had it tough in his 30s but he enjoyed his 20s with super weak competition....So it evens out."
@Razer - it doesn't quite work that way.
What's more important: To have it easy when you're good enough to beat anyone? Or to have it easy when you're past the peak of your powers? Novak has been more dominant in the slams in his 30's than in his 20's for this very reason. Meanwhile, Fed lost 10+ slams in his 30's, where he was in "slam winning form**" to Djokodal.
That's why it doesn't quite even out.

But it's a moot point, cause Novak will be remembered as the best when all is said and done and to a large degree, he is already.

** slam winning form = a level good enough to win without peak Djokodal. Or a level comparable to the level they've been winning slams ad nauseum at for the past 5 years.
 
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Chanwan said:
You are WAY too aggressive for me to be debating with you on this.
I said: "before it changes much in peoples' mind imo. 2-3 non-slams will help, but there will still be: But he lost the big one. And sh*t his pants in the big one".
Yet you go on to attack me.
Fwiw, I'm an Alcaraz fan, not a Novak fan - bye for now
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how did i attack you? i just said is silly to say he ****ted his pants, i agree it wont change in peoples minds unless he beats novak, but that doesnt really matter, what shouldnt be diminished is everything else he is doing, im not agressive, on turn, i find people overly agressive and unforgiving against a kid that is playing the best tennis since federer, discrediting him for everything, calling him tiny, saying even drop shots shouldnt be allowed, and all kinds of crazy stuff, if you are his fan im sure you watched that match, he had turned things around and was imposing his game, then he had that problem, colling that ****ting his pants is just not adecuate or truth to what really happened, and diminishes what he had done in the match, in that Rg, and in the rest of the season, people is agressive, im just offended, not by you, but by that attitude that is floating all over this stinky forum, i even asked ttw to erase my account because its disgusting the things i read in here and my guess is that there are more people that dont watch full matches or that dont pick up a racquet than people who do, what i dont understand is why they havnt erased my ****ing account by now
 
Slicehand said:
how did i attack you? i just said is silly to say he ****ted his pants, i agree it wont change in peoples minds unless he beats novak, but that doesnt really matter, what shouldnt be diminished is everything else he is doing, im not agressive, on turn, i find people overly agressive and unforgiving against a kid that is playing the best tennis since federer, discrediting him for everything, calling him tiny, saying even drop shots shouldnt be allowed, and all kinds of crazy stuff, if you are his fan im sure you watched that match, he had turned things around and was imposing his game, then he had that problem, colling that ****ting his pants is just not adecuate or truth to what really happened, and diminishes what he had done in the match, in that Rg, and in the rest of the season, people is agressive, im just offended, not by you, but by that attitude that is floating all over this stinky forum, i even asked ttw to erase my account because its disgusting the things i read in here and my guess is that there are more people that dont watch full matches or that dont pick up a racquet than people who do, what i dont understand is why they havnt erased my ****ing account by now
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Your debating style/tone of voice/call it what you want it too much in my face for my present state of mind. Sorry. This email should help:

<discussadmin@tennis-warehouse.com>​

 
Chanwan said:
"Federer had it tough in his 30s but he enjoyed his 20s with super weak competition....So it evens out."
@Razer - it doesn't quite work that way.
What's more important: To have it easy when you're good enough to beat anyone? Or to have it easy when you're past the peak of your powers? Novak has been more dominant in the slams in his 30's than in his 20's for this very reason. Meanwhile, Fed lost 10+ slams in his 30's, where he was in "slam winning form**" to Djokodal.
That's why it doesn't quite even out.

But it's a moot point, cause Novak will be remembered as the best when all is said and done and to a large degree, he is already.

** slam winning form = a level good enough to win without peak Djokodal. Or a level comparable to the level they've been winning slams ad nauseum at for the past 5 years.
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Who says Federer was good enough to beat "anyone" ?

Marat Safin beat him in 2005 and probably would have beaten him in 2004 as well if the draws were swapped for Roger and Marat, plus we saw how bad Federer in 2006 final as well, this means Federer having 6 titles at that Aus Slam is lucky since he never had to beat Peak Novak in his 20s for those titles.

Wimbledon and US open he was maybe good enough to beat anyone but that still doesn't change the fact that he could still lose titles to prime ATGs in those years, he didn't face but had he then he could have lost in New York.

Plus he did not have to break wall of 2 ATGs in his 20s to start winning and gain confidence, his obstacles were nobodies.

So indeed he has it very easy in his 20s and this the price to pay was in his 30s.

Djoker is the greatest of the 3, whatever he is enjoying in his early-mid 30s is a result of the fire he has to go through in his 20s.

Federer being in slam winning form losing is on him, some of the slams he lost were on him.
 
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Razer said:
Who says Federer was good enough to beat "anyone" ?

Marat Safin beat him in 2005 and probably would have beaten him in 2004 as well if the draws were swapped for Roger and Marat, plus we saw how bad Novak in 2006 final as well, this means Federer having 6 titles at that Aus Slam is lucky since he never had to beat Peak Novak in his 20s for those titles.

Wimbledon and US open he was maybe good enough to beat anyone but that still doesn't change the fact that he could still lose titles to prime ATGs in those years, he didn't face but had he then he could have lost in New York.

Plus he did not have to break wall of 2 ATGs in his 20s to start winning and gain confidence, his obstacles were nobodies.

So indeed he has it very easy in his 20s and this the price to pay was in his 30s.

Djoker is the greatest of the 3, whatever he is enjoying in his early-mid 30s is a result of the fire he has to go through in his 20s.

Federer being in slam winning form losing is on him, some of the slams he lost were on him.
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Agree to disagree on most of what you wrote.
"
some of the slams he lost were on him.
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" this is true though. But it's harder to win vs. younger ATG's on a similar talent level as every ATG through history can attest to. I got no idea what the below means (ah, it means you weren't watching at the time, got it)
plus we saw how bad Novak in 2006 final as well,
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Chanwan said:
Agree to disagree on most of what you wrote.
"

" this is true though. But it's harder to win vs. younger ATG's on a similar talent level as every ATG through history can attest to. I got no idea what the below means (ah, it means you weren't watching at the time, got it)
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I am multi tasking few things while typing, so typos will happen, you should have understood what I meant, this means it is you who were not watching tennis then.
If I am speaking of Aus open and 2006 then you should have known that I am refering to Federer instead of Novak and thats a typo because Fed was horrible against Baghdatis in first 2 sets, he was probably sleepwalking, he was that bad, lol, he escaped with a W because the opponent was an inexperienced mug.

anyway ....I always rate people who start late and overtake over people who had headstart and end up as losers

Wawrinka and Murray ....especially Wawrinka started winning as late as 2013, so today if Wawrinka was on 23 slams starting so late then I would have declared him even greater

This is how I see things, Federer and Nadal are failures in my eyes for starting early and ending up behind.
 
Razer said:
I am multi tasking few things while typing, so typos will happen, you should have understood what I meant, this means it is you who were not watching tennis then.
If I am speaking of Aus open and 2006 then you should have known that I am refering to Federer instead of Novak and thats a typo because Fed was horrible against Baghdatis in first 2 sets, he was probably sleepwalking, he was that bad, lol, he escaped with a W because the opponent was an inexperienced mug.

anyway ....I always rate people who start late and overtake over people who had headstart and end up as losers

Wawrinka and Murray ....especially Wawrinka started winning as late as 2013, so today if Wawrinka was on 23 slams starting so late then I would have declared him even greater

This is how I see things, Federer and Nadal are failures in my eyes for starting early and ending up behind.
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Failures and losers, hahaha. Funny guy
 
Chanwan said:
Your debating style/tone of voice/call it what you want it too much in my face for my present state of mind. Sorry. This email should help:

<discussadmin@tennis-warehouse.com>​

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Yeah the poster has had better days for sure. I mean I understand how TTW can get to someone. But it's what it is. The trolls have made a decent poster unhinged. First TTW takes one's legs...

Anyway, Slicehand, chill man. Don't let TTW get to you because if you do, then please don't go on Twitter. Nolefam there is just despicable (as with most such "fams").
 
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Aestheticsaboveallelse said:
Hold on Djokovic showed he's better? When? Last I checked they were tied 1-1 with the momentum on Alcaraz side before Alcaraz body gave out. So I'm not seeing where Djokovic is better, BUT I am seeing Djokovic having a much less frail stronger body physically better suited to the rigors of high level tennis
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At the French Open. The score reflected that Djokovic was better. It doesn't matter how you break down your opponent.
Next you'll want tennis judged like gymnastics.
 
The matter of the fact is that Djokovic should actually be compared to the other GOATs... Fed and Rafa... and not the young kids. No disrespect for Carlos, and he could very well be the next one.... but ..... let us just not even dare to compare Carlos with Djoker for at least next 5 years.
 
tex123 said:
When it mattered, he retired. He can redeem himself if he wins W after beating Djokovic. That's a big ask when he folded cheaply at the French - Novak's weakest surface.
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That speaks volumes. If this so-called"great talent" could not defeat--or even challenge Djokovic on the latter's worst majors surface, then he's not some GOAT-to-be, as argued by a few TTW members. This transparent thread only exists because of a obsessive hatred of Djokovic and his personal health choices. Someone cannot stand the fact Djokovic is still winning majors, and faces no harsh punishment for exercising his right as an individual to manage his own health.
 
FeroBango said:
Yeah the poster has had better days for sure. I mean I understand how TTW can get to someone. But it's what it is. The trolls have made a decent poster unhinged. First TTW takes one's legs...

Anyway, Slicehand, chill man. Don't let TTW get to you because if you do, then please don't go on Twitter. Nolefam there is just despicable (as with most "fans").
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yeah it is what it is, it is a ****hole, when i made my account i liked discussing about technique of the strokes or tactics, then comenting the matches, and now its just too much, for every real sports fan there are a million keyboard trolls that know nothing about tennis and i find myself dealing with them when i really dont have time for that, and its too much of a hussle to find a poster with a sensible view of the events or the tennis world that has actually played tennis and can have a greatter empathy with players or tennis situations, yeah im done here man, dont worry about twiter, im not a social media guy, this is the only social media thing i have, its summer here in spain, im gonna play a lot of tennis, cycle all the mountains around and spend a lot of time in my pool and in the beach, lifes good, dont work till september, no need to look for anything in here, i will keep my tennis talk to myself or real people, goodbye and good luck
 
Slicehand said:
yeah it is what it is, it is a ****hole, when i made my account i liked discussing about technique of the strokes or tactics, then comenting the matches, and now its just too much, for every real sports fan there are a million keyboard trolls that know nothing about tennis and i find myself dealing with them when i really dont have time for that, and its too much of a hussle to find a poster with a sensible view of the events or the tennis world that has actually played tennis and can have a greatter empathy with players or tennis situations, yeah im done here man, dont worry about twiter, im not a social media guy, this is the only social media thing i have, its summer here in spain, im gonna play a lot of tennis, cycle all the moiuntains around and spend a lot of time in my pool and in the beach, lifes good, dont work till september, no need to look for anything in here, i will keep my tennis talk to myself or real people, goodbye and good luck
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Fwiw, one last post from me to a fellow Alcaraz fan (and yes, I play as well).
Reasons why Alcaraz will do great on grass, now & in the future:
  • He's got excellent touch & improvisation
  • His drop shot will be harder to execute, but he's drop volleys are quite something and very effective
  • He's one of the best, if not the best, volleyers under 30
  • His S&V
  • His slice BH is excellent for a two-hander
  • His pacy serve can do damage, even if he hasn't quite got the angles and spots just perfect yet (better than last year though)
  • His RoS ain't as great as it is on slower surfaces, but it's still in the top echelon
  • His movement, while below his clay & HC movement, is still elite
  • He's got point-ending abilities on serve, forehand, BH, RoS and volleys
  • His aggressive mindset. He wants to attack and that mindset pays dividends on grass even in this day and age.
Enjoy the summer (I won't be here either)
 
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Absolutely. As a matter of fact, not too long ago, as a blind Federer fan I also used to find ways to belittle Novak's achievements. It took me so long to realize that this was purely because my mind was playing tricks with me, and I was not seeing things as it is.

THUNDERVOLLEY said:
obsessive hatred of Djokovic
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Razer said:
Djokovic won't be year end number 1 forever, he won't be able to play all tourneys because his old age won't allow him....so not surprising if this year is his last chance to be year end rank 1
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TRUE! I would love to see him earn one more YE at #1, though I doubt that he will. Still, it is possible if he remains injury free.
 
THUNDERVOLLEY said:
That speaks volumes. If this so-called"great talent" could not defeat--or even challenge Djokovic on the latter's worst majors surface, then he's not some GOAT-to-be, as argued by a few TTW members. This transparent thread only exists because of a obsessive hatred of Djokovic and his personal health choices. Someone cannot stand the fact Djokovic is still winning majors, and faces no harsh punishment for exercising his right as an individual to manage his own health.
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Let's not get carried away. There's no changing the fact that Fed is 6 years older than Djokovic and 5 years older than Nadal. Nadal is a year older than Djokovic. Both Nadal and Fed are retired/semi-retired with injuries for a while now. The field has been weakest in the history of tennis. Alcaraz was the hope in the form of a rival - once in a generation talent. He still is. Except when it mattered, he failed miserably. His mind and body failed. If he fails to deliver, there's no one stopping Djokovic in absence of the other two rivals. He's not had a younger credible rival all his life like Fed and Nadal had.
 
Bambooman said:
At the French Open. The score reflected that Djokovic was better. It doesn't matter how you break down your opponent.
Next you'll want tennis judged like gymnastics.
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No he deserved the win as the score reflects im not saying he shouldn't have won I'm saying this match didn't show us who has more skill at tennis
 
Aussie Darcy said:
I’m no Alcaraz fan but am seeing incredible laughter here at Carlos being #1 over Novak. But if you look at the 2023 race to the World Tour Finals, Alcaraz is actually challenging Novak and is only 70 points behind. Pretty close I’d say.

Djokovic is on 4,745 points
Alcaraz on 4,675 points.

Alcaraz with the far superior win loss this year:
Buenos Aires champ (4 wins)
Rio runner up (4 wins, 1 loss to #13 Norrie)
Indian Wells champ (6 wins, 2 against top 10 players)
Miami SFist (4 wins, 1 against top 10 player, 1 loss to #12 Sinner)
Barcelona champ (5 wins, 1 against a top 10 player)
Madrid champ (6 wins)
Rome 3R (1 win, 1 loss)
French Open SF (5 wins, 1 top 10 win. 1 loss to #3 Djokovic)
Queens champ (5 wins)

40 wins and 4 losses. 5 titles.

Djokovic:
Adelaide champ (5 wins, 1 against a top 10 player)
Aus Open champ (7 wins, 2 against top 10 players)
Dubai SF (3 wins, 1 loss to #7 Medvedev).
Monte Carlo 3R (1 win, 1 loss to #21 Musetti)
Bosnia QF (1 win, 1 loss to #70 Lajovic)
Rome QF (3 wins, 1 loss to #7 Rune)
RG champ (7 wins, 2 against top 10 players)

27 wins and 4 losses. 3 titles.

Now this isn’t to say Novak isn’t the clear #1 right now with 3 slams and the whole Wimbledon points debacle, but looking at this year, it’s actually pretty close on the points.
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The Race points are not the Ranking points and you know it. Djokovic was unjustly stripped of 2000 Wim points and if that wasn't the case Alcaraz wouldn't have even sniffed the No1.
 
Aussie Darcy said:
Eh, Novak hasn’t made the QF’s at Indian Wells and Miami in over 7 years since 2016. And given how he went at the other Masters this year (3R loss in Monte Carlo and QF in Rome…). It’s not screaming promising).
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Love those misleading statistics.
Novak didn’t participate from 2020-2023.
Novak was garbage everywhere in 2017 and in the first half of 2018.
So the only thing you can say is that Novak underperformed in 2019 (last time he played).

Finally, while you could make the assumption that djokovic would play bad in those tournaments, you can also make the assumption that Novak would be better in the clay season if he plays the sunshine doubles.

So let’s make a conservative estimate:
Novak makes two 4R at sunshine double, goes to QF instead of 3R at MC and SF instead of QF at Rome. That would be 90+90+180-45+360-180=495 points.
If you add that to the 70points you would have a 565 point lead for Nole over Alcaraz in the road to Turin (which is actually rather pointless thing to look at for the top 2 players).
 
Aestheticsaboveallelse said:
Agreed, so how does this counter my claim that Djokovic didn't get the chance to demonstrate superior skill in that match?
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He did in the first set. Then he used all the other aspects you find intangible to close it out.

My hitting partner has far more skill than I do but he never wins against me now because he's out of shape and a poor mover. Is this my problem?
 
Aestheticsaboveallelse said:
You're arguing against something I'm not claiming at all
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You said stronger body has NOTHING to do with tennis skill.

Yes it does. It allows you to use your skills continuously with little diminishing of them over the course of a match.

If you are too tired to swing your racquet it will effectively mean your skills are diminished.
 
Bambooman said:
He did in the first set. Then he used all the other aspects you find intangible to close it out.

My hitting partner has far more skill than I do but he never wins against me now because he's out of shape and a poor mover. Is this my problem?
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Nevermind you keep trying to argue something I agree with lol. No one had a clear edge in match before cramping, we will have to find out at Wimbledon if Djokovic really outskills this kid or just outlasts him
 
Bambooman said:
You said stronger body has NOTHING to do with tennis skill.

Yes it does. It allows you to use your skills continuously with little diminishing of them over the course of a match.

If you are too tired to swing your racquet it will effectively mean your skills are diminished.
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Yes but meaning stronger body doesn't mean you also have more skill than someone. Thats literally all I meant

I'm also not saying Alcaraz is more skilled, I don't know yet
 
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Aestheticsaboveallelse said:
Yes but meaning stronger body doesn't mean you also have more skill than someone. Thats literally all I meant

I'm also not saying Alcaraz is more skilled, I don't know yet
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All that matters is who has more of the goods on the day. So far Djokovic has that at a higher level than anyone else ever.

The chances of the two having any sort of lengthy H2H to truly compare them as individuals is next to nil. We're lucky we ever saw them play.
 
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