Detailed comparison of Federer vs Djokovic at slams in their 30s - win %s, opponents faced, averages per slam etc

Kralingen said:
I guess there’s not much of a difference between them, perhaps Tsits could shade it to steal the phrase from Nat. I felt that Medvedev’s prior success over Novak on the court and his high level SF would set him up for a better performance than he produced, for sure. But generally felt that the 2nd set level brought the most out of Djok that I had seen in a big match for awhile.

Kyrgios may well have been the best the more I think about it just because he lowers the margin of victory so much with that amazing serve. but once rallies started he was mostly toast so it’s hard to point to that one as the BEST.
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Clearly, we saw that match differently. Medvedev was really good in set 2 of the final but Tsitsipas was a tad bit better in set 1 and 2 in the RG final imo, and played better tactically until Djokovic caught on and he was in trouble. I think more than anything, Medvedev had the wrong tactics for that 2023 USO final. Djokovic was in a proactive and aggressive mindset and trying to outlast him wasn't going to work.

Kyrgios served amazing on that day for sure. I would say overall, Tsitsipas > Kyrgios > Medvedev all things considered.
 
RS said:
Slam race looks over for now most likely but that doesn't mean tennis debates end. No where near.
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A good chunk of these “debates“ are really about diminishing what Novak accomplished. Over and over and over we read some version of “weak era” or luck or what have you. And usually from the same posters.

Let it go people. The Big 3 had what may be the greatest ever competition in tennis history to see who would end up with the most prizes. And now we have a winner.
 
Djokovic has been less prone to upsets but he’s nowhere near 9 slams better than 30s fed or whatever the number is. It’s a travesty how 30s fed only won 2 Wimbledon out of 5 finals yet djokovic won 4 in a row.
 
fedfan24 said:
Djokovic has been less prone to upsets but he’s nowhere near 9 slams better than 30s fed or whatever the number is. It’s a travesty how 30s fed only won 2 Wimbledon out of 5 finals yet djokovic won 4 in a row.
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Djokovic in his 30s shouldn't be 8* Slams better than Federer in his 30s but he's certainly better. I keep reading how it's not as big of a difference but have you bothered to break it down and see the difference? These are Slams Djokovic won and who Federer was losing to. Do you honestly see 30s Djokovic losing to most of these players?

2018 USO (Berdych - 2012 USO)
2019 AO (Murray - 2013 AO)
2019 Wimbledon (Stakhovsky - 2013 Wimbledon)
2020 AO (Nadal - 2014 AO)
2021 AO (Seppi - 2015 AO)
2022 Wimbledon (Raonic - 2016 Wimbledon)
2023 USO (Del Potro - 2017 USO)
 
Regardless of the strength of the competition or the birth year, Novak was destinied to become the greatest, as he's by far the most complete player to ever hold a racquet. He's a robot, a replicant with a body and gamestyle suitable for any surface.

Federer had stronger competition in his 30s for obvioua reasons. That doesn't mean Djokovic's and Nadal's longevity isn't impressive, it is. Nor does it mean that their Slams have less value. But it's fair to acknowledge that Mr. Federer had to deal with two younger ATGs. Now, that was an advantadge in 2004-2007, as they were less mature (Nadal on clay and grass was already matured by 2007 though). So being older than the competition has its advantadges and disadvantadges.
 
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NoleFam said:
Djokovic in his 30s shouldn't be 8* Slams better than Federer in his 30s but he's certainly better. I keep reading how it's not as big of a difference but have you bothered to break it down and see the difference? These are Slams Djokovic won and who Federer was losing to. Do you honestly see 30s Djokovic losing to most of these players?

2018 USO (Berdych - 2012 USO)
2019 AO (Murray - 2013 AO)
2019 Wimbledon (Stakhovsky - 2013 Wimbledon)
2020 AO (Nadal - 2014 AO)
2021 AO (Seppi - 2015 AO)
2022 Wimbledon (Raonic - 2016 Wimbledon)
2023 USO (Del Potro - 2017 USO)
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On the flipside, several of those Fed's would avoid losses with those Djokovic draws. 2012 USO Fed doesn't lose to Sandgren, 2013 AO Fed deosn't lose to Pouille and would do better on the faster surface, 2017 USO Fed doesn't lose to Fritz and even 2016 Fed might win one of the Wimb's Djoko has won.

2013 Fed was terrible, might as well bring up Novak's loss to Chung or Istomin.
 
NatF said:
I had trouble logging in for a while broke the habit, started a new job and I'm just not connected with the players like I used to be. Used to be several players I'd tune in to watch, now it's basically just Alcaraz. I still enjoy playing at least...
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Same. Sucks how boring the field is now.
 
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jl809 said:
Nadal aged 30-36.5 in slams
  • 90.4% win / loss ratio
  • 125 matches played, 113 won
Slam by slam:
  • Australian Open:
    • 86.1% W/L, 36 matches, 31 won
      • losses to Cilic (2018), Djokovic (2019), Thiem (2020), Tsitsipas (2021)
      • best opponents beaten: Medvedev (2022)... err.. I guess maybe Dimitrov (2017)...
  • French Open:
    • 97.6% W/L, 41 matches, 40 won
      • losses to Djokovic (2021)
      • Best opponents beaten: Wawrinka (2017), Federer (2019), Thiem (2019), Djokovic (2020), Djokovic (2022)
  • Wimbledon:
    • 85.7% W/L, 21 matches, 18 won
      • losses to Muller (2017), Djokovic (2018), Federer (2019)
      • best opponents beaten: Del Potro (2018)
  • US Open:
    • 88.9% W/L, 27 matches, 24 won
      • losses to Pouille (2016), Del Potro (2018), Tiafoe (2022)
      • Best opponents beaten: Medvedev (2019)
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That peak version of Dimitrov is much better than any of the rivals Djokovic faced at the Australian Open earlier this year, including the same Bulgarian player being 6 years older than that magnificent version of him.
There is no point of comparison, really.
:notworthy:
 
nachiket nolefam said:
Same Medvedev got beaten by Nadal in five sets twice but was straight setted by Nole.

In 2021, Nole was physically spent before reaching finals and Medvedev won the match. It was strange match.
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Don't be cheeky, in 2019 Medvedev arrived fresh at the final after beating Dimitrov in straight sets in the semifinals, while four years later, the Russian had to play his best match of the tournament to beat Alcaraz and although you may not recognize it, the key moment of the final was that Medvedev wasted not taking the second set that would have radically changed the development of the match.
:D
 
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MichaelNadal said:
Same. Sucks how boring the field is now.
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Just don't want tune in and watch the likes of Med, Zverev, Rudd etc...Rune I do like as well but I just don't find the match-ups enticing. I kinda like Tsitsipas but his game has regressed and has so many holes. If I could only watch his service games maybe I would :laughing:
 
NatF said:
Just don't want tune in and watch the likes of Med, Zverev, Rudd etc...Rune I do like as well but I just don't find the match-ups enticing. I kinda like Tsitsipas but his game has regressed and has so many holes. If I could only watch his service games maybe I would :laughing:
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It's just all so vanilla right now. I want some chocolate chip cookie dough :D
 
NatF said:
Wouldn't go that far, most are shades of mediocre but Tsits 2021 FO and Kyrgios 2022 Wim were better.
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That Tsitsipas who did not generate any break points in his favor from the third set of the final on a surface like clay and that Kyrgios who collapsed in the ninth game of the third set and in the fourth set tiebreaker of the 2022 Wimbledon final,
were those performances better?
:oops:
 
Djokovic_is_the_best#1 said:
What would make it less vanilla for you bestie?
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Exciting players that don't fistpump after every point. I wouldn't go see guys like Sinner if you gave me tickets.

jannik-sinner-large-2.jpg


Bunch of bratty, overconfident geeks who don't even ever win anything important :sick:
 
MichaelNadal said:
Exciting players that don't fistpump after every point. I wouldn't go see guys like Sinner if you gave me tickets.

jannik-sinner-large-2.jpg


Bunch of bratty, overconfident geeks who don't even ever win anything important :sick:
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That’s cool. I respect your view. I like Sinner but understand if he’s not your cup of tea. Is there any player out there for 2024 that can make things more interesting for you again?
 
NoleFam said:
Djokovic in his 30s shouldn't be 8* Slams better than Federer in his 30s but he's certainly better. I keep reading how it's not as big of a difference but have you bothered to break it down and see the difference? These are Slams Djokovic won and who Federer was losing to. Do you honestly see 30s Djokovic losing to most of these players?

2018 USO (Berdych - 2012 USO)
2019 AO (Murray - 2013 AO)
2019 Wimbledon (Stakhovsky - 2013 Wimbledon)
2020 AO (Nadal - 2014 AO)
2021 AO (Seppi - 2015 AO)
2022 Wimbledon (Raonic - 2016 Wimbledon)
2023 USO (Del Potro - 2017 USO)
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Djokovic could lose to healthy 2014 Nadal.

OTOH 2012 Fed would be favourite to win 2017-2019 USOs with the winner's draw. Not to mention his 5 Wimbledon final runs would be favourite for any of Djokovic draws there since 2018.
 
mike danny said:
On the flipside, several of those Fed's would avoid losses with those Djokovic draws. 2012 USO Fed doesn't lose to Sandgren, 2013 AO Fed deosn't lose to Pouille and would do better on the faster surface, 2017 USO Fed doesn't lose to Fritz and even 2016 Fed might win one of the Wimb's Djoko has won.

2013 Fed was terrible, might as well bring up Novak's loss to Chung or Istomin.
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As if Sandgren, Pouille, and Fritz are the best players Djokovic played at those Slams. The fact is Djokovic isn't losing to most of those guys Federer lost to.

Well Djokovic won Slams at the age when he was terrible. That's the point.
 
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fedfan24 said:
Djokovic could lose to healthy 2014 Nadal.

OTOH 2012 Fed would be favourite to win 2017-2019 USOs with the winner's draw. Not to mention his 5 Wimbledon final runs would be favourite for any of Djokovic draws there since 2018.
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Could but not likely in Australia.

2012 Federer would be playing 2018 USO draw and on a slow court that doesn't favor his game.
 
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fedfan24 said:
Djokovic could lose to healthy 2014 Nadal.

OTOH 2012 Fed would be favourite to win 2017-2019 USOs with the winner's draw. Not to mention his 5 Wimbledon final runs would be favourite for any of Djokovic draws there since 2018.
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Hypothetical Fed never loses. Yeah we know. However, in reality he didn’t win that much in his 30s.
 
NoleFam said:
As if Sandgren, Pouille, and Fritz are the best players Djokovic played at those Slams. The favt is Djokovic isn't losing to most of those guys Federer lost to.
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But Federer would find more success in this era despite not playing that well. Sure, they weren't the best players Djokovic faced at those slams, but they were the opponents Djokovic faced at the stages Fed lost. Once Fed actually gets past those stages, anything is possible.
NoleFam said:
Well Djokovic won Slams at the age when he was terrible. That's the point.
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But it's because of injuries for Federer, not higher level for Djokovic.
 
mike danny said:
But Federer would find more success in this era despite not playing that well. Sure, they weren't the best players Djokovic faced at those slams, but they were the opponents Djokovic faced at the stages Fed lost. Once Fed actually gets past those stages, anything is possible.

But it's because of injuries for Federer, not higher level for Djokovic.
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I feel like it's right there for you to see that the sky is blue but you are still arguing that it's green. Lol. It doesn't matter what the reason is. Federer was losing to guys that Djokovic in his 30s wouldn't be losing to, which is the main reason why Djokovic won more Slams in his 30s.
 
NoleFam said:
I feel like it's right there for you to see that the sky is blue but you are still arguing that it's green. Lol. It doesn't matter what the reason is. Federer was losing to guys that Djokovic in his 30s wouldn't be losing to, which is the main reason why Djokovic won more Slams in his 30s.
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It could be a bit of both. Not sure about RG and the USO, but for the AO and Wimbledon, if you look at the OP, sure Fed had some bum losses (Seppi 15 AO, Raonic 16 W, Stakhovsky 13 W) which there’s no way Djoker loses to, but he also had lots of really tough competition too - imo it’s questionable to assume Djoker gets out of stuff like 2012-2014 Nadal and Lendl Murray at the AO without a single loss

Then we get to the versions of Djoker himself who Fed faced, like pretty much peak Djoker at the AO in 2016 and 2 of his best grass versions in 2014-15. Since 2018, Djoker hasn’t faced anyone as good as his peak 2015 grass version at Wimbledon for example and I think even Djoker fans would agree those 2 versions >> anything since 2018, so he’d be hard pressed to come out of those matches with wins
 
NoleFam said:
Could but not likely in Australia.

2012 Federer would be playing 2018 USO draw and on a slow court that doesn't favor his game.
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2012 version nearly got it down, 2014 guy looked strong pre final.

del potro would certainly be a battle as we saw in 2012, but the 2018 guy wasn't quite the same without his bh. I'd take fed there with no berdych to upset him pre final.
 
Djokovic_is_the_best#1 said:
Hypothetical Fed never loses. Yeah we know. However, in reality he didn’t win that much in his 30s.
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he had a few upsets but he also lost 8 direct slam matches to djokovic or nadal... at least 5 of those he'd be favourite to win some very clear favourite. 2014 ao/2019 rg/2020 ao would be the question marks but he should win 1 at least.
 
jl809 said:
It could be a bit of both. Not sure about RG and the USO, but for the AO and Wimbledon, if you look at the OP, sure Fed had some bum losses (Seppi 15 AO, Raonic 16 W, Stakhovsky 13 W) which there’s no way Djoker loses to, but he also had lots of really tough competition too - imo it’s questionable to assume Djoker gets out of stuff like 2012-2014 Nadal and Lendl Murray at the AO without a single loss

Then we get to the versions of Djoker himself who Fed faced, like pretty much peak Djoker at the AO in 2016 and 2 of his best grass versions in 2014-15. Since 2018, Djoker hasn’t faced anyone as good as his peak 2015 grass version at Wimbledon for example and I think even Djoker fans would agree those 2 versions >> anything since 2018, so he’d be hard pressed to come out of those matches with wins
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Yea I agree he had some tough competition as well which is why I didn't list 2012 AO, 2014 Wimbledon, 2015 Wimbledon & USO, 2016 AO, etc. I'm talking about winnable matches that he lost and mostly ones I doubt Djokovic in his 30s would lose.
 
NoleFam said:
Yea I agree he had some tough competition as well which is why I didn't list 2012 AO, 2014 Wimbledon, 2015 Wimbledon & USO, 2016 AO, etc. I'm talking about winnable matches that he lost and mostly ones I doubt Djokovic in his 30s would lose.
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Djokovic has been more consistent for sure, however even if Fed won those matches there were very in-form opponents waiting in later rounds for the most part. So swap their places and it's far from guaranteed Djokovic wins those slams, even if he does most likely go further. The truth is usually in-between two extremes.
 
NatF said:
Djokovic has been more consistent for sure, however even if Fed won those matches there were very in-form opponents waiting in later rounds for the most part. So swap their places and it's far from guaranteed Djokovic wins those slams, even if he does most likely go further. The truth is usually in-between two extremes.
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There's more times than not in form opponents at the end of Slams but I see 30s Djokovic taking at least a few of those Slams, especially 2016 Wimbledon and 2017 USO. He can't really play himself in 2013 and 2015 AO, who are stronger versions of his himself although 2019 AO Djokovic would be a tough opponent to deal with. Not to mention 2019 Wimbledon where I would expect him to do better than his 2013 version. So he wins more Slams than Federer imo if they swapped places.
 
jm1980 said:
Hard disagree on the disagreement. Medvedev clearly came out with a different gameplay against Djokovic than he used against Alcaraz

He wanted to wear Djokovic down through attrition, and then pounce. It almost worked too. If not for some timely and well played S&V points from Djokovic, Med would have taken the second set, and then it would have been anyone's match
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Almost took a set = plan almost worked, lul. Unforcederrordev when it matters, facts.
 
NoleFam said:
There's more times than not in form opponents at the end of Slams but I see 30s Djokovic taking at least a few of those Slams, especially 2016 Wimbledon and 2017 USO. He can't really play himself in 2013 and 2015 AO, who are stronger versions of his himself although 2019 AO Djokovic would be a tough opponent to deal with. Not to mention 2019 Wimbledon where I would expect him to do better than his 2013 version. So he wins more Slams than Federer imo if they swapped places.
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Time travel is impossible so I don't think Djokovic playing himself is the real issue ;)

I don't think Djokovic wins many of those Slams. More than Fed? Maybe but then there's still a few slams which Djokovic won that I think same age Fed was better in but couldn't win due to competition- though mostly at Wimbledon.

Anyway this feels a bit like splitting hairs.
 
NatF said:
Time travel is impossible so I don't think Djokovic playing himself is the real issue ;)

I don't think Djokovic wins many of those Slams. More than Fed? Maybe but then there's still a few slams which Djokovic won that I think same age Fed was better in but couldn't win due to competition- though mostly at Wimbledon.

Anyway this feels a bit like splitting hairs.
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Ok but you do concede Djokovic played consistently better in his 30s thus maximizing his chances to win more Slams right? To me, that's the difference.
 
NoleFam said:
Ok but you do concede Djokovic played consistently better in his 30s thus maximizing his chances to win more Slams right? To me, that's the difference.
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Yes, though that's mostly a product of staying fit IMO but of course that is part of the game.
 
helterskelter said:
Hogwash. HOGWASH. You seem to be laboring under the dangerous misapprehension that tennis players compete for trophies, prize money, and perhaps love of the game. This is not true at all. All that they are doing - at least, all that is worthwhile - is attempting to beat ATGs and ideally younger ATGs. Medvedev is no ATG (ROTFLMAO!) and he's not even that young. Indeed, he's several years past his peak and prime. Beating him is absolutely not an achievement at all, let alone a significant one. Alcaraz losing to him was if anything even more embarrassing than when he cramped against an old man at Roland Garros, thus proving once and for all that he is, morally speaking, already retired.
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So most of the slams won by Djokovic and Nadal are post peak?
 
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