Meles
Bionic Poster
I really don't care about Bendy v Fed, just a case of the pigeon biting back once in a while.
Please let me know of a few impressive Bendy title runs. 13 titles is not all that amazing.
Diamond Age has Begun
- Thread starter Meles
- Start date
Please let me know of a few impressive Bendy title runs. 13 titles is not all that amazing.
abmk
Bionic Poster
no, I don't.
Its just another extension of your sh*tty cluelessness about tennis before 2015.
just because you started watching tennis recently and are desperate for the current era to be so great, doesn't mean it is.
its clearly weak....the fail gen (Dimi-Raonic-Nishi gen) sucks(&sucked) miserably.
the gen after that still has way to go to prove themselves and they are nowhere good enough as of now to make it anything resembling a good era, (diamond era ? more like black soot from <30 years old era)
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Meles
Bionic Poster
How could I miss this post? No doubt you're sulking with Djoko's reemergence.
Trust me this thread was not in my noggin until a thread in ProMatch got me to write the long response you see in post 2. I'm a happy camper right now and I'm not even pulling out the sizable pile of Thiem ammunition. Life is going to be interesting for the Thieminator in all this. Eager to see what he does the rest of the season, but definitely lying in the weeds on Thiem.
Lord help TTW should he vulture Vienna in impressive fashion.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
@Meles, why the Diamond Age? Why not the Silver Age? I thought Rihanna said "bright like a diamond"? I have mostly been seeing dull.
Look, I get it. You are excited about the new generation and want to speed up their development and see what they are capable of. However, you are witnessing arguably the 3 greatest players to ever play this sport playing simultaneously and setting records. We may never see anything like this ever again in our lifetimes. What is with the rush to push them off the stage? I'm not even a Federer fan but I don't want to see him go. These guys are legends still playing and winning big and this new crop of players won't even win half of what they did, or have half their mystique and charisma. Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got til it's....gone.
Look, I get it. You are excited about the new generation and want to speed up their development and see what they are capable of. However, you are witnessing arguably the 3 greatest players to ever play this sport playing simultaneously and setting records. We may never see anything like this ever again in our lifetimes. What is with the rush to push them off the stage? I'm not even a Federer fan but I don't want to see him go. These guys are legends still playing and winning big and this new crop of players won't even win half of what they did, or have half their mystique and charisma. Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got til it's....gone.
Meles
Bionic Poster
Coric has been an odd duck this year. In interviews the thought he was going to be out early from Shanghai due to neck issues and then just caught fire and close to winning the thing despite playing on one leg. Further Coric reading:
1. My eventual prediction of the coming over Coric this year, but the case was made for clay!; https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/coric-3rd-all-time-on-clay.609994/
2. Post IW Coric analysis: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...lays-thiem-and-then-rafa-back-to-back.616482/
Coric's blasted neck made clay a flop, but he's amazing delivered off of clay in a big way. Coric has a lot of horsepower under the hood and still just 21 years old right now. If his IW return level came back he'd be even rougher. Weird guy. In Shanghai just stuttering in his losers speech.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Delpo/Cilic are part of the Nadal-DJoko-Murray gen, not lost gen.
Basically, Djoko-Nadal-Fed won all the 4 slams
Delpo won IW, Isner won Miami, Nadal won Monte Carlo, Zverev won Madrid, Nadal won Rome, Nadal won Canada, Djoko won Cincy, Djoko won Shanghai.
only one win among the lost gen or the young gen.
Cilic was AO finalst, Thiem RG finalist, Anderson Wim finalist and Delpo USO finalist.
Thiem is the only one well below 30 in that and he didn't impress in the final either.
Federev
G.O.A.T.
Well -obviously-it has nothing to do with past generations and players. All it takes is one player significantly better than the pack around him. Wah-lah: double digits become possible regardless of how he compares ( or his peers) to past generations.
Meles
Bionic Poster
Silver is less than gold so that was out!
I'm not pushing Big 3 off the stage, just their pigeons. Big 3 are squarely a huge part of the diamond age. On their own the new set of players is a good group, but not as good as wave spearheaded by the Big 4. But when you combine the three greatest players with this new wave you really have something special. I hope Delpo, especially after bad knee vs Coric robbed him of WTF, does well next year, but Cilic, Fognini, Isner, Anderson, Nishikori, Raonic can take a hike or at least a step back. I'd be fine and dandy if Dimitrov could catch fire again. Dimitrov, Stan, Muzziah, and Delpo can only add to the mix.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Maybe you should spend a little time checking out titles and what happened in those years (watching something).
you do realise he won Paris Masters in 2005 ?
won Halle 2007 without losing a set.
won Japan 2008 with easy wins in all matches except semi vs Roddick
won Rotterdam 14 with easy wins in all matches except one (vs Janowicz)
etc. etc.
Also made so many slams semis, masters finals -- only to be stopped by an in-form Fedalovic or Murray ?
Even if he beat one of them, he'd still have to beat one or two more of them.
In Wim 10, he beat Federer, Djoko, but was stopped by Nadal
in USO 12, beat Fed, but was stopped by Murray etc. etc.
Meles
Bionic Poster
All true, but so is the 2018 ATP race:
17 geriatrics in top 40 (Delpo and Cilic included since they are now 30)
14 newer players with Thiem being the tops in age
9 LostGen - Nishikori at 9 and Raonic at 15 lead the way
Frankly a lot of the LostGen high in the rankings are very new at the top of the game including; Schwartzman, Cecchinato, Basilashvili. One could make the case for 17, 17, and 6 being the count.
This does not include Rublev or Fritz who are close.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Silver is less than gold so that was out!
I'm not pushing Big 3 off the stage, just their pigeons. Big 3 are squarely a huge part of the diamond age. On their own the new set of players is a good group, but not as good as wave spearheaded by the Big 4. But when you combine the three greatest players with this new wave you really have something special. I hope Delpo, especially after bad knee vs Coric robbed him of WTF, does well next year, but Cilic, Fognini, Isner, Anderson, Nishikori, Raonic can take a hike or at least a step back. I'd be fine and dandy if Dimitrov could catch fire again. Dimitrov, Stan, Muzziah, and Delpo can only add to the mix.
I know silver is less, and that was the point. Lol.
We already had something special though. We had the Big 4 at their peaks and primes along with Del Potro, Soderling, Davydenko, Tsonga and Berdych, etc. all playing well and mixing it up. It's not going to get much better than what we saw at that point from 2009-2012. These new guys are still not quite there yet. Zverev can only make 1 Slam QF after all this time and just got taken to the woodshed by Novak. He's the best they have to offer right now. They will have their time but after the legends are close to finishing their quests.
Dimitrov had a great vacuum last year and won 2 big titles because of it. I don't expect much more from him after his nose dive this season. Wawrinka will be 34 in about 5 months. He will start slowing down rapidly at this rate, and it looks like it's already begun. I hope Murray can get himself back physically close to 100% to compete at the highest level and I hope Del Potro overcomes his injury quickly.
D
Deleted member 716271
Guest
It is actually the Age of Aquarius
Meles
Bionic Poster
Paris Masters 2005 was a joke.
Halle 2007, really? (weakish field) Medvedev won Tokyo main draw without losing a set. (Ditto winston-salem) Also went through qualifiers at both.
I won't decry Japan 2008.
You've got to be joking with Rotterdam
This is a sad joke.
Berdych is a choker and a pigeon. 13-18 in finals not exactly the stuff of legends.
NaomiKonjuhPotapova
G.O.A.T.
Ugh. Message to de Minaur: Change mentor!!
NaomiKonjuhPotapova
G.O.A.T.
I've got a bad feeling that Khachanov gonna be that guy who couldn't beat that certain group of guy ala Nishikori.
NaomiKonjuhPotapova
G.O.A.T.
It's Crimson age rather than diamond. Crimson and Clover.
Meles
Bionic Poster
I'll buy Delpo and I can take Soderling, but Davydenko was a slam zero during the time you mention. I just blew up Berdych a few posts above. Tsonga is a mental midget. Basically you have a few one slam wonders listed who did not consistently show in a lot of events. Its the big 4 and a bunch of big zeroes.
I can respect Stan, Soderling, and Delpo as reputable supporting cast, but come on they just aren't even close anyway you shake it that the others amount to much. Ferrer had a lot of titles. And really Soderling was only really a threat from 2009 to 2011 when he was basically an old 24 at RG 2009.
I like all the Frenchies, but come on.
Meles
Bionic Poster
I've never been a big fan until lately; he's playing at a very high level. The difference maker for Khach is he's got reach on return and a big serve game. If healthy he'll have better career titles than Nishi and he could take a lot more big titles with that serve. Honestly I think he's done well if he gets into top ten for a few years.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I'll buy Delpo and I can take Soderling, but Davydenko was a slam zero during the time you mention. I just blew up Berdych a few posts above. Tsonga is a mental midget. Basically you have a few one slam wonders listed who did not consistently show in a lot of events. Its the big 4 and a bunch of big zeroes.
I can respect Stan, Soderling, and Delpo as reputable supporting cast, but come on they just aren't even close anyway you shake it that the others amount to much. Ferrer had a lot of titles. And really Soderling was only really a threat from 2009 to 2011 when he was basically an old 24 at RG 2009.
I like all the Frenchies, but come on.
Davydenko won 2009 Shanghai beating Djokovic and Nadal, and WTF beating both Federer and Nadal. If that is a zero then these new guys must be near Arctic Circle numbers. Berdych and Tsonga have both beaten every member of the Big 4 in Slams. These new guys will be lucky to beat one.
Soderling was old at 24? You call some of them one Slam wonders but the new guys don't even have 1 Slam among them from the entire group. If you think any of them will get close to the Big 3 numbers then you are setting yourself up for disappointment.
Meles
Bionic Poster
Harsh, best abmk has got so far is Bendy lol who I'm trumping with Medvedev, who would've been on my NextGen C team at the beginning of the year. Frankly I thought Med would be doing well to make top ten. Now I'm not so sure what he's capable of. If off-injured Nishikori can make top 5 then Med might slide in there here and there too. Medvedev at age 22 with three titles this year is just crazy stuff.
Meles
Bionic Poster
Old 24 equals nearly 25. I've said one or maybe two of them might hit double digit slams. I'm predicting 6 plus for four of them by 2030.
Berdych and Tsonga are mental midgets lol. Blind pigs find acorns once in a while. Tsonga at least has some big titles beating big names along the way.
Your wins over big 4 in slam metric is utter nonsense as measure of new players.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Two of them will hit double digits? I don't see it.
How many players can say they have beaten the Big 3 and Murray in Slams? Very few. I'm just saying these new players have yet to reach the peak levels of Tsonga or Berdych yet you are calling them mugs and hyping up these guys who have yet to prove themselves.
Sputnik Bulgorov
Hall of Fame
But how many SF spots did the next gen get? Just 1 SF by Chung at the AO, 2 if you count Edmund, though at 23, he's not quite the same age group anymore. Old guys, even outside the big 4, like Anderson, Isner, Cilic, Delpo and Nishikori took up more SF spots than the young guys. None of the really hyped guys like Zverev, Tsitsipas or Shapovalov made a deep run. I think any of Zverev, Coric or Tsitsipas might make their first SF next year, but the rest are question marks.
O
OhYes
Guest
Seems like he has some injury issues. Not following him around like Novak, but it is clear that he has what it takes for making Cilic look average/bad in the end. Ofc I speak for Croatian tennis and their lack of support for this kid. Instead of embracing him (and Cilic) as players who actually can do in tennis a lot, they look through prism of Djokovic and everything lower than him is mockery. In a way, although his friend, Djokovic without wanting gave Coric the tougher road he must go. Feel sorry for the kid, but his success is bounded by big 3 fall unfortunately (especially Novak's).
As for him stuttering, it was after all his first major final and speech.
Zardoz7/12
Hall of Fame
Tennease
Legend
You CAN NOT be Kyrgious!
Bender
G.O.A.T.
Golden Age was the big 4.
Now until 2030 we have Diamond Age:
1. Five players form the core of the Diamond Age with elite potential and the ability to win all four slams; Tsitsipas (20), Auger-Alliasime (18), Shapovalov (19), Zverev (21), Coric (21). Coric likely to have more of a Murray/Wawrinka career. The rest high single digit slams, maybe more for one or two.
2. de Minaur (19), Rublev (20), and Tiafoe (20) all have slam potential and also very young. Throw in the big serving Medvedev and Khachanov as one or two hit wonders possibly.
3. The early part of the Diamond Age will be Big 3 (maybe 4 or 5) and Thiem contending for majors, but the younger players will be making deeper runs by 2020.
Its really quite a group of players and the earliest cross age clashes between Gold and Diamond will continue to be historic and fascinating encounters. ATP in great shape if you have a clue on what to expect. More support discussion to follow in next post so those without a clue may get some.
What gives??
MatsPhilander
Legend
vive le beau jeu !
Talk Tennis Guru
nikshalamov12332
Rookie
How in the world are his strokes pretty??
helterskelter
G.O.A.T.
Only bits of it. But I know he has some impressive results. I just think he'll get found out relatively early on. I can see him being a top 50 player for a long time, with occasional moments in the top 20. But I don't think he'll be a big threat to the others you listed over the long term. Could be putting too much weight on the eye test, but we'll see.
Zara
G.O.A.T.
Hi helter - have you done any analysis on the Next Gen and noticed any significant potential that might materialize in the near future? Any thoughts on Kyrgios? A lost case or the potential is still there?
ojo rojo
Legend
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
Wah-lah what a spelling!
But if nobody can even beat the previous generation, how can someone dominate their own?
D
Deleted member 733170
Guest
Philipoussis used to spend most of his spare time surfing, so he probably the lacked the dedication to carry his career further. Still, he had a backbone unlike Kyrgios.
Ann
Hall of Fame
It will happen because one mug will be a little better than the other mugs and previously mentioned mug will win most of the GS and everyone will declare slightly less sucky mug GOAT.
Zara
G.O.A.T.
That's why I'm doing this thread. Posters like TP seem clinically depressed or something. In post 2 I discuss the trajectories for the top new players on the radar. Things look very, very good.
I'm dancing in the street that pigeons like Raonic, Cilic, Anderson, Dimitrov, Nishikori, Berdych, Ferrer are gone or on the way. Yet TP wants to build up there likes and morn their demise or something. Fedralinas are definitely very guilty of building up Berdych who has been embarrassing Fed since back in the great vacuum at 2004 Olympics. The guy has just never done that much and he was very good around 2010-2011, but otherwise he's been a total pigeon. Berdych won 13 titles in his career and none of them impressive. Even during his peak stats period he's got like zip titles. Medvedev FFS has three titles this year and his Japan Open run is more impressive than anything Bendych won lol.
These Big4tarts have hardly watched anything this last year because they don't see the pigeons of yore and decry everything as weak. This thread is here to inform that we are entering the greatest period of tennis. We have the Big 3 still extremely good, a giant chasm called the LostGen, and now this new group of great, great players coming up that track with the best. This is one of the most interesting times in tennis history. Federer got to play a little bit with Agassi and barely with Sampras. We've got some real overlap and huge talent coming up.
Already we've had Shapo out of nowhere light up Nadal (and Delpo) last year at Rogers Cup. (Shapo is making fine, fine progress this year.) Now Tsitsipas shows up and he's beaten Thiem on clay, Djokovic, Zverev, and Anderson on hard at Rogers Cup. R16 at Wimbledon. And Tsitsi sneaks back into matches in a big way and got Nadal into TB lottery at Rogers Cup out of nowhere. These are not easy things to do. Zverev of course has already pretty much beaten them all save Nadal who barely got off the hook in Rome this year. These are historic matches and part of the great overlap we're lucky to see in the Diamond Age.
Fast hard courts is something I'd consider a current weakness for the new group of players and yet we have Coric and Zverev show up at Beijing and do extremely well. I don't fancy Paris for this group, but these are still exciting times with Coric, Tsitsipas, and even Medvedev with a ghost of a chance of making WTF this year given 10th might make it with Delpo out and Nadal very questionable especially on heels of bad experience last year with the same scenario.
I don't think there will be any drastic change next year (more like gradual change) but the shift is definitely there. Also, some of these youngsters need time to evolve in order to gain necessary experience so that they can hit their prime when the time comes. There were a lot of write offs when Federer came into picture and a lot of them were unsure about him as well so the reaction is pretty trendy - nothing we haven't seen before. The LostGen couldn't have made any dent for two reasons - they weren't good enough to break through and the field was strong overlapping each other. Even Murray wasn't able to do much and Wawrinka was just one of those anomalies - exception to the rule. No one saw that coming so we have to keep that in mind too and see what else arises that may still seem in the dark. There will be a greater shift in the next 2/3 years or so, no doubt.
IowaGuy
Hall of Fame
And Flipper at least reached two GS finals, which is considerably more than Nickie has accomplished thus far...
Federev
G.O.A.T.
Thanks on wah-lah.
What I mean is - just because a future player might not be as good as Mac or Sampras or Novak, it doesn’t really mean they can’t break the GS recrord.
Fedalvik will probably get old enough for Shap to beat someday.
Sure, he might not b the guy to do it it.
But if you take that principle down a few more generations there’s no logical problem in a future guy winning 20 something slams and still being objectively worse than all of Fedalvik - and yet still better them in the GS tally .
abmk
Bionic Poster
more idiotism. Never said berdych was the best of the lot. and only in your delusional la la land has Med done anything remotely close to what Berdych did in his career.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Paris Masters 2005 was a joke.
Halle 2007, really? (weakish field) Medvedev won Tokyo main draw without losing a set. (Ditto winston-salem) Also went through qualifiers at both.
I won't decry Japan 2008.
You've got to be joking with Rotterdam
This is a sad joke.
and Med hasn't even done anything good enough to even get in an advantageous position to choke away stuff.
what is wrong with Rotterdam 14 ? Berdych draw was Seppi, Mahut, Janowicz, Gulbis and Cilic.
(Cilic had beaten Rosol, Tsonga, Murray on the way to the final)
and Winston-Salem 2018, lol, whom exactly of significance or good form did Medvedev defeat ?
and you whine about Rotterdam 2014 ?
Paris 2005 was relatively weak field in general going by 2005 standards. But in that young Berdych beat 5 seeds (#2 seed Coria, #6 seed Ljubicic,#7 seed Gaudio,#8 seed Stepanek and #13 seed Ferrero). Gaudio was easy outside of clay, but not the others.
Fat chance current Medvedev gets through more than 2 of those 4 guys (Coria, Ljubicic, Stepanek, Ferrero), let alone all 4 of them
And obviously this part :
"Also made so many slams semis, masters finals -- only to be stopped by an in-form Fedalovic or Murray ?
Even if he beat one of them, he'd still have to beat one or two more of them.
In Wim 10, he beat Federer, Djoko, but was stopped by Nadal
in USO 12, beat Fed, but was stopped by Murray etc. etc. "
went over your head.
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Meles
Bionic Poster
Fraudulent delusion. Slams are slams. Any one playing the game is the far future probably will be a better player. A case can already be made for Djokovic rather easily, so slams are slams at best.
Meles
Bionic Poster
Well Med with three tournament wins in the year he turned 22. Bendy with three total by then in the great vacuum of 2003-2007.
Meles
Bionic Poster
LOL. Comparing entire career with beginning of career.and Med hasn't even done anything good enough to even get in an advantageous position to choke away stuff.
what is wrong with Rotterdam 14 ? Berdych draw was Seppi, Mahut, Janowicz, Gulbis and Cilic.
(Cilic had beaten Rosol, Tsonga, Murray on the way to the final)
and Winston-Salem 2018, lol, whom exactly of significance or good form did Medvedev defeat ?
and you whine about Rotterdam 2014 ?
Paris 2005 was relatively weak field in general going by 2005 standards. But in that young Berdych beat 5 seeds (#2 seed Coria, #6 seed Ljubicic,#7 seed Gaudio,#8 seed Stepanek and #13 seed Ferrero). Gaudio was easy outside of clay, but not the others.
Fat chance current Medvedev gets through more than 2 of those 4 guys (Coria, Ljubicic, Stepanek, Ferrero), let alone all 4 of them
And obviously this part :
"Also made so many slams semis, masters finals -- only to be stopped by an in-form Fedalovic or Murray ?
Even if he beat one of them, he'd still have to beat one or two more of them.
In Wim 10, he beat Federer, Djoko, but was stopped by Nadal
in USO 12, beat Fed, but was stopped by Murray etc. etc. "
went over your head.
De Minaur is the least physically mature of the upcoming players. He looks like a skinny kid. If he puts on some weight and gains strength he might be able to be more of a powerful attacking player rather than a scrambling counter puncher.
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