Did Agassi Play his best Tennis?

Spencer

New User
Some observations I had from the Agassi/Federer final.

People have been saying that Agassi was playing his best tennis and was an improved player in recent years. I disagree. By their late teens, most tennis players have fully developed their primary foundation and technical skills for the rest of their careers. Let’s say that Agassi started playing tennis at age 10, he would have 25 years of experience playing tennis. 25 Years! To say that he took his game to another level during the last 5 years of the career in his early 30’s would be ridiculous.

In the final, Agassi played as he always had, great ground strokes, average rarely used volley skills, and a serve that totally broke down. This was the exact same Agassi that lost to Sampras 4 times at the majors throughout their careers, only now he was much older and slower. While I would say that Agassi has held up very well, he surely is not playing better than he did in the 90’s where he racked up 5 of his 8 major championships. He also has not won a major since early 2003 and had just come back for his herniated disc problems. Let’s not forget that older players, like cars, carry with them all the body ailments and depreciation of years of grinding, tearing, and scaring of tendons/ligaments that occurs throughout a tennis season. Older players have had many more wrist, elbow, shoulder, knee conditions and surgeries than younger guys.

That said, I noticed that with the exception of being completely out served, 35 year old Agassi was able to match Federer stroke for stroke from the baseline. During his prime Sampras often won his rallies against Agassi when they exchanged from the back. This tells me that Sampras in his prime would have had absolutely no problems competing in baseline rallies with Federer. Which leads me to my next point.

Federer is a more complete player than Sampras. I hear this all the time but can anyone explain this to me? Sampras had mastered the serve no one denies this, however he also had every other shot in his repertoire. Forget his S/V and even his serve, Sampras had arguably the best baseline game in the 90’s. His forehand was devastating and his running forehand was probably the best of all time. His backhand slice was very reliable and his topspin backhand was also very formidable, he just didn’t chose to use it much because it was a lower percentage shot. Sampras’ true talent was the way he used his unbelievable touch and reflexes. He could meet blistering service returns with ease, picking up half-volleys in the air, besting the toughest passers in the game at the net, and placing oh so delicate drop volleys just out of reach of this opponents. His topspin lob was a great weapon, and his overhead smash? Forget about it. Not only does he not let it drop first, he jumped in the air to meet the ball, something you rarely ever seen. Talk about pure athleticism! This all while playing an assortment of players who played much more varied styles then they do today.

Federer also has a complete game. He has no weaknesses and has better serve/volley skills than most in today's game. However, when you watch Federer it’s always forehand, backhand, forehand, winner. Repeat Ad Nauseum? No, I enjoy watching Federer’s brilliance, but he was not a more complete player than Sampras.
 

The tennis guy

Hall of Fame
To play your best doesn't necessarily relate to your skill. You have to be there to really know how tough it was for Federer to play well there with completely one-sided fan support in favor of Agassi. In matches between Agassi and Sampras, most of the time the fans were neutral.

After the second set, I really expected Federer to lose. It is incredible he pulled it off. He had to be so much better than the other guy to pull it off in that environment.

There is no question in my mind after being there, Agassi played inspired tennis, the best I have ever seen him play against top competition. After watching it on tape, I don't think TV captured the environment completely.
 

The tennis guy

Hall of Fame
random1 said:
He should've used it at Roland Garros, don't you think?
I have to agree with random there. Sampras could hang with the best baseliners in 90s, but he wasn't the best baseliner. His domination came from the fact that he could hang with them on baseline, but also could come to net with power and precision in addition to his serve.
 

Spencer

New User
Tennis Guy,

I think you mean Federer played inspired tennis right? He was the one who was the defending champion and had the crowd against him. He overcame much more adversity to win that match. I have little doubt that Federer has more composure and resolve than Agassi when the going gets tough. He is the Iceman.

I have to say that the way Federer dominated Agassi in the 4th was truly incredible. He does dominate, almost destroying his opponents in a way that Pete didn't do.
 
I hate getting involved in the Sampras/Federer debate, since it never goes anywhere. But with regards to Sampras' baseline ability, I must say that it was absolutely top-notch.

Let's not forget that MOVEMENT is the skill that most Americans struggle with on clay. Sampras could hit groundstrokes as well as anyone, but did not move instinctively on clay, mostly a function of being an American and not having access to red clay courts. Additionally, point construction is far different on red clay than hardcourts or grass. The spins and movements require a completely different approach to the game.

Case in Point: Roger Federer and Marat Safin. Are there any players with better groundstrokes today? They are among the best baseliners, and have both played well on clay, but neither of them have been consistent threats in the second week of the French(YET!). Both of them have made the semis and then lost to(Of course) eventual champion Spanish players who are at home on clay. Federer and Safin have an aggressive mentality that isn't quite good enough to win them the French. You can't play offense better than these two, but they both lose out in movement and point construction that is very intuitive to Spaniards and Latin American players.

Oh yes, before I forget, Federer and Safin grew up playing in Europe ON CLAY. They are even more intuitive in movement than Sampras, which in my mind, makes Sampras' numerous appearances in the 2nd week of the French even harder to fathom, since he essentially had no clue how to move or contruct points on clay. What I'm saying is that his strokes ALONE got him a long way on clay, which is a large testament to how good they were considering his inherent disadvantage in other areas.
 

The tennis guy

Hall of Fame
Spencer said:
Tennis Guy,

I think you mean Federer played inspired tennis right? He was the one who was the defending champion and had the crowd against him. He overcame much more adversity to win that match. I have little doubt that Federer has more composure and resolve than Agassi when the going gets tough. He is the Iceman.

I have to say that the way Federer dominated Agassi in the 4th was truly incredible. He does dominate, almost destroying his opponents in a way that Pete didn't do.

No, I meant Agassi played inspired tennis from the overwhelming support from the crowds. Federer played his normal level, not even his best in my opinion - he got rattled from time to time. It is difficult to play your best when everyone there was rooting against you.
 

The tennis guy

Hall of Fame
DariusRaiden said:
I hate getting involved in the Sampras/Federer debate, since it never goes anywhere. But with regards to Sampras' baseline ability, I must say that it was absolutely top-notch.
Does top-notch mean the best?
 

Spencer

New User
Tennis guy,

Agassi may have played inspired tennis in the second and third set, but he either choked or got old quickly in the 3rd set tiebreak, and in the entire 4th set!

Random1,

Since winning the French is a primary determinant of who is the best baseliner, which of the below former French Open winners would you say are better baseliners than Sampras in the 90s? :mrgreen:

1990 Andrés Gómez
1991 Jim Courier
1992 Jim Courier
1993 Sergi Bruguera
1994 Sergi Bruguera
1995 Thomas Muster
1996 Yevgeny Kafelnikov
1997 Gustavo Kuerten
1998 Carlos Moya
1999 Andre Agassi
 

The tennis guy

Hall of Fame
Spencer said:
Tennis guy,

Agassi may have played inspired tennis in the second and third set, but he either choked or got old quickly in the 3rd set tiebreak, and in the entire 4th set!

Federer started to play aggressively in the 3rd set tiebreaker. Agassi was deflated in the 4th set. Federer seemed to me approached this match cautiously (conservatively). It is understandable because of one-sided fan support for Agassi.
 

Spencer

New User
Exactly what I said then right?

Federer handles adversity better than Agassi. Also just because Agassi played his heart out in this match doesn't mean it was the highest level of tennis that he has ever played. People approach performance with more care, desire, and understanding as they get older, but they usually still cannot top the cavalier, carefree physical vigor of their younger years.
 

T5Chris

New User
Yes. He did everything to the best of his ability. He played points as about as intelligently as he possibly could. If he was a few years younger, I think he would have had a solid shot at winning that match.
 

drexeler

Rookie
Spencer said:
During his prime Sampras often won his rallies against Agassi when they exchanged from the back. .
Sampras had the ability to hit spectacular winners from the baseline - running forehands that used to literally stun Agassi, and awesome DTL backhand winners. But these were occassional as most of the time his ground game was not consistent. It was more of hit-or-miss type. Agassi always had far fewer winners - and they were usually not spectacular - and mostly forced errors. So even though Agassi was winning most of the rallies (in a mundane way), Sampras's winners tend to stick in the mind, and create the illusion he is dominating Agassi from the baseline. This is almost like in basketball, where a player's last-minute baskets that win games are remembered fondly while the same players' misses (which are more in number) are forgotten. Sampras usually had at least +30 point advantage in aces/service winners. Agassi had to make up this deficit off the ground. If Sampras indeed was better off the ground, the point gap between them in every match would have been above 30, and the scores would have been 6-2, 6-1 types, but this was hardly the case. In 1995, when both were peak at the same time, Agassi actually had a 3-2 lead on hard courts (1-1 in slams). Furthermore, if Sampras had a great baseline game, he would have had more success at the FO.
Spencer said:
Federer is a more complete player than Sampras. I hear this all the time but can anyone explain this to me? .
As Agassi said, Federer is great on offense, great on defense; he has a great hold game, a great break game. I agree that Sampras had a better attacking/offensive game, but Federer has a bigger edge on defense/returns. If you look at stats, Federer's service winning % is close to Sampras's, but he is also among the top 10 (first among non-clay players) in all return categories. This in a way explains his incredible winning record - just one loss on non-clay in more than 12 months- even on days when his serve or forehand is off, he can stay in matches by being able to break often, counterpunch, play defense during a rally until he gets an opening to crack a winner etc. When Sampras had an off-day he used to lose in a little worse fashion (straight-setters to Philippoussis, Krajicek, Kafelnikov etc.) because he wasn't much of a counterpuncher. The other reason for the idea of Federer being a complete player comes from the memories of his breakthrough Wim in 2003, where he gave two of the finest performances in the SF & Final. He was actually serve-volleying back then, and he was really hailed in the press for bringing back real grass-court tennis, artistry etc. back into the game (previous year had Hewitt-Nalbandian battling it out in the final).
 

byealmeens

Semi-Pro
drexeler said:
As Agassi said, Federer is great on offense, great on defense; he has a great hold game, a great break game. I agree that Sampras had a better attacking/offensive game, but Federer has a bigger edge on defense/returns. If you look at stats, Federer's service winning % is close to Sampras's, but he is also among the top 10 (first among non-clay players) in all return categories.

Great response - I totally agree. And who better to judge than Andre Agassi himself, a man who's played Becker, Sampras, Connors, McEnroe, Edberg and of course Federer. If he says Federer has the most complete game he's seen, that's good enough for me. It also doesn't hurt that former players like McEnore and Courier agree with him.

Let me also add that Federer and Sampras did play one another - on grass, at Wimbledon, on Centre Court, with a 4-year in a row winning streak on the line. Federer won then, and he was only 18, clearly not the player he is now. That to me was the first real indicator of Federer's ability.
 
S

splink779

Guest
Spencer said:
Sampras had arguably the best baseline game in the 90’s. .

I would respond but I'm rolling on the floor laughing. Sampras's backhand was one VERY ugly shot.
 

random1

Rookie
Spencer said:
Tennis guy,

Agassi may have played inspired tennis in the second and third set, but he either choked or got old quickly in the 3rd set tiebreak, and in the entire 4th set!

Random1,

Since winning the French is a primary determinant of who is the best baseliner, which of the below former French Open winners would you say are better baseliners than Sampras in the 90s? :mrgreen:

1990 Andrés Gómez
1991 Jim Courier
1992 Jim Courier
1993 Sergi Bruguera
1994 Sergi Bruguera
1995 Thomas Muster
1996 Yevgeny Kafelnikov
1997 Gustavo Kuerten
1998 Carlos Moya
1999 Andre Agassi
Most of them were better baseliners in the 90s, but not as good tennis players overall. Nobody is arguing Sampras' excellence, but to restrict it to just his baseline game would make him just another great player, not the 14 slam-winning all-time great that he was. That was due to the best serve in the game, the best volley in the game, and very good(but not the best) baseline game. Two out of three ain't bad...
 

Spencer

New User
Drexeler,

Good points, I agree with you. However you have to remember that Pete did rely on his serves alot and since he won so many easy points off it, he didn't have to further develop his backcourt game. His big forehand/consistent backhand was enough to dominate all but the best baseliners and he always had an insurance policy knowing he could still crush them at net or with aces. Therefore he had many weapons to fall back on and to compensate with if one part of his game was not clickling. That makes him a complete player.

Now If Pete had been tested more, say by a Federer he may have then had to work on and to fully develop his backcourt game to even par with his net game in order to win. He might have had to do a little bit more, sacrifice his body more to win matches.(which he didn't want to do because his goal was longevity, to save himself to secure more championships.) Like people say Federer could adjust his game and learn how to overcome new challenges, Sampras could too if he had to.

Conversely, I would say that for Federer to have a chance against Sampras, he would have to further develop his net game. This way both guys will have an option to help them if one part of their games is not clicking. This lack of a net game is why Roddick, Hewitt, and now Agassi has such a hard time against Federer and the reason Federer does not show of his own impressive net game more. He doesn't need to.

By the way, at the 90 US Open, Sampras did blow Agassi off the court from the backcourt. (He did not serve/volley as much then)
 

Spencer

New User
Random1,

Agreed. Which is why I said agruably.

Still, without his dominant serve and his net skills, I would still pick Sampras to beat the majority of the guys on that list strictly from the backcourt on hard courts. Being the best baseliner doesn't mean who can grind out the longest rallies, otherwise Federer would not have the best baseline game today either.
 

AAAA

Hall of Fame
DariusRaiden said:
Let's not forget that MOVEMENT is the skill that most Americans struggle with on clay. Sampras could hit groundstrokes as well as anyone, but did not move instinctively on clay, mostly a function of being an American and not having access to red clay courts.

LOL - Jim Courier the winner of TWO FRENCH OPEN titles never had any problem moving on CLAY. If your argument is valid then Sampras should NEVER have achieved his Wimbledon successes since like Courier he grew up playing on hardcourts. AND Agassi by your resaoning should never have reached THREE FRENCH OPEN finals winning one of them. If clay court tennis is so inferior and mindless, and the clay courters are so inferior to non-clay courters, inferior as athletes, inferior movers and inferior as shot makers as some have said on these boards then surely Sampras the absolute sh!tz of all time surely should have beaten them all and won at least 3 FO titles in 13+ attempts.
 

FiveO

Hall of Fame
I think there is a big difference between being the best clay-courter and being the best baseliner on other surfaces. Many traditional dominant clay-courter's groundies don't translate well to faster surfaces especially in the majors. (noted exception Borg).

Kuerten, barring the injuries could have established himself as another clay courter who could have been a consistent fast court favorite but like Lendl I do not consider Guga a traditional clay court striker of the ball.

On the other hand, many great fast court baseliner's groundies translate well to clay. Agassi and Kafelnikov and Courier. Courier's game while experiencing its first GS championship on clay was born and trained on hard courts.

During the '90's the up and down Agassi was widely considered the best groundstroker on hardcourts and other fast surfaces when in his up phases. In '95 AA won seven events leading up to the Open, power ground stroking through draw after draw. At that time, AA was also widely considered one of the top two movers on the tour, second only to Chang. Andre was a solid favorite going into the '95 USO final v. Sampras. In a pre-match interview during the warm-up minutes before the final coach Paul Annacone revealed the Sampras game plan was to get Agassi into as many "athletic points" as possible. What that turned out meaning was Pete would get AA into as many corner to corner baseline exchanges as possible. I remember thinking that might not be the best approach v. a red-hot Agassi, but Pete did it and consistently won those exchanges and the match.

Pete's pride also came into it in other matches v. Agassi and Kafelnikov who Pete described as having the best ground strokes he had ever played against. Pete would go into many matches v. the two, fixed on proving he was as good if not better than both of them off the ground. Pete proved it the majority of the time. Pete definitely had one of the best fast court ground games in the early and middle '90's. It was in the late '90's that Sampras became a more devout s & v player.

Sampras was obviously not the same player on clay. No excuses but I do believe that it was more a result of his conditioning limitations, his inability to adjust his natural movement on the slippery surface and his serve being blunted. While he had perplexing early round losses in '95 and in '98 and thereafter, he was still one better guys even on his worst surface.

Aside from winning a title on the red stuff in Roma in '94 at Roland Garros Sampras had good results. Not the results we expected and got from Pete on other surfaces but better results than many:

'91 1R beat Muster in five couldn't recover losing in 2R
'92 QF where he lost to Agassi
'93 QF lost to Bruguera who went on to win title
'94 QF lost to former champ Courier
'95 lost first round
'96 SF lost to Kafelnikov who went on to win title; defeated Bruguera in 2R and Courier in the QF en route to the SF that year. Pete had beaten Kafelnikov in the Davis Cup Final Tie months earlier in Moscow on red clay.
'97 3R lost to Magnus Norman who prior to a Kuerten-like hip injury later in his career was considered a favorite a RG.

Was Pete anything like the force he was on all other surfaces when playing on clay? Absolutely not. I'm not saying that. Was he a complete slouch on red clay? Not IMO.

But in the early/mid '90's on everything but clay, with his ability to hit through the court to win points from the baseline Sampras ground strokes were on par with the other best fast court groundstrokers in the game i.e. Agassi, Kafelnikov, etc.
 

The tennis guy

Hall of Fame
Spencer said:
Drexeler,

Good points, I agree with you. However you have to remember that Pete did rely on his serves alot and since he won so many easy points off it, he didn't have to further develop his backcourt game. His big forehand/consistent backhand was enough to dominate all but the best baseliners and he always had an insurance policy knowing he could still crush them at net or with aces. Therefore he had many weapons to fall back on and to compensate with if one part of his game was not clickling. That makes him a complete player.

Then why did you say Sampras was the best baseliner in 90s?
 

Spencer

New User
I said he was arguably the best baseliner, and it's still an argument I consider legitimate. It is impossible to really definitively say or prove anything in the way of who is the best. It's all just personal opinion. For short guys, they probably think Chang was the best tennis player to be as competitive as he was at 5'8, 150 lbs. :D

FiveO,

I don't really remember Sampras' matches with Agassi in '95 but if your post is accurate, it confirms what I always believed I remembered. :mrgreen: That Sampras did challenge Agassi and others from the baseline on many occassions (Sampras loved the challenge) and bested Agassi more times than not. I remember there were spells during matches where Pete played purely from the baseline and I remember thinking Damn, Pete owns him from the backcourt too. I remember thinking he was almost purposely making his serve playable and staying back, playing with his prey and making a statement, "I can beat you from back here as well, and not just with my serve!" Does anyone else remember thinking this too throughout Sampras' early career?
 
I laughed so hard reading the topic starting sermon, I had to drink some water to keep from falling over laughing.
It is amazing how far some individuals have their head up Sampras's rear end that they cant even see straight probably, and some others Federer's for that matter. The starter of this thread is definitely the former however.
 
drexeler said:
Sampras had the ability to hit spectacular winners from the baseline - running forehands that used to literally stun Agassi, and awesome DTL backhand winners. But these were occassional as most of the time his ground game was not consistent. It was more of hit-or-miss type. Agassi always had far fewer winners - and they were usually not spectacular - and mostly forced errors. So even though Agassi was winning most of the rallies (in a mundane way), Sampras's winners tend to stick in the mind, and create the illusion he is dominating Agassi from the baseline. This is almost like in basketball, where a player's last-minute baskets that win games are remembered fondly while the same players' misses (which are more in number) are forgotten. Sampras usually had at least +30 point advantage in aces/service winners. Agassi had to make up this deficit off the ground. If Sampras indeed was better off the ground, the point gap between them in every match would have been above 30, and the scores would have been 6-2, 6-1 types, but this was hardly the case. In 1995, when both were peak at the same time, Agassi actually had a 3-2 lead on hard courts (1-1 in slams). Furthermore, if Sampras had a great baseline game, he would have had more success at the FO.

As Agassi said, Federer is great on offense, great on defense; he has a great hold game, a great break game. I agree that Sampras had a better attacking/offensive game, but Federer has a bigger edge on defense/returns. If you look at stats, Federer's service winning % is close to Sampras's, but he is also among the top 10 (first among non-clay players) in all return categories. This in a way explains his incredible winning record - just one loss on non-clay in more than 12 months- even on days when his serve or forehand is off, he can stay in matches by being able to break often, counterpunch, play defense during a rally until he gets an opening to crack a winner etc. When Sampras had an off-day he used to lose in a little worse fashion (straight-setters to Philippoussis, Krajicek, Kafelnikov etc.) because he wasn't much of a counterpuncher. The other reason for the idea of Federer being a complete player comes from the memories of his breakthrough Wim in 2003, where he gave two of the finest performances in the SF & Final. He was actually serve-volleying back then, and he was really hailed in the press for bringing back real grass-court tennis, artistry etc. back into the game (previous year had Hewitt-Nalbandian battling it out in the final).

Excellent points. I agree with everything you said.

I watched every Sampras-Agassi match in 94, 95, 99, and 2000, and the notion that Sampras had much more success vs the best version of Agassi in baseline rallies compared to Federer vs the current "older" Agassi is completely hogwash. What is amazing is even earlier this year, when Federer was winning vs Agassi with no sets closer than 6-3 or 6-4, it was said Federer does not do as well in baseline rallies vs an older Agassi as compared to how Sampras did vs Agassi in his prime; when Sampras was losing a third of their matches, and almost always losing sets, playing tiebreakers, or 7-5 sets(I am not looking at matches in years like 96 and 97 when Agassi was playing far worse tennis than he has the last 2 years, despite the age factor). When you consider Sampras is winning far more free points of his serve than even Federer is, the logistics of that theory is ludricious. Agassi can obviously only give Federer a match at the U.S open, since he gets comfortably dismissed everywhere else, so he does not control his matches with Federer these days from any area, including the basline. If Sampras really could dominate Agassi from the baseline he would be winning sets 6-1 and 6-2 like you said, since Agassi could not return any of his first serves, atleast he returns a reasonable share of Federer's. The matches were as close as they were due to Agassi's clear superiority from the baseline vs Sampras.


The real truth is that Agassi can barely stay in points when he Federer gets a few forehands more so than was the case vs Sampras, and when Agassi got to Samrpas's backhand Pete was almost always on his heels much more without exception than vs Federer's backhand. Federer always played much better defense from the baseline than Sampras did, even though both were fast.
 

LendlFan

Semi-Pro
I've been watching Andre Agassi since he turned Pro and I tell you there's two Andre Agassi(s)

1. Andre when he's in control of a match plays one of the smartest matches you can possibly imagine. He constructs points like a Master. His pace is measured and you can actually see him like a Chess Player going through the game before he even strikes the ball.

2. Andre when he's behind and in trouble loses all sense of calculation and plays frantic who burns through points like there's a fire or something. He hits and hits harder. He seems to lack notice of when he's created a small opening and allows his opponent back into the point. Even the time he takes to serve is hurried unstead of taking a deep breath and thinking about what he's about to do and why.

There was one crucial point he played against FedEx where he was serving and they were at duce. Andre hit a shot wide to the duce corner which made Rodger run and all Rodger did was hit the ball back to mid-court where Andre was standing but instead of hitting a BH wide to the add corner nad following it in for the put away, Andre simply hit the ball right back to where FedEx was standing and Rodger blasted a nasty angled FH cutting out from the duce side service line where Andre couldn't get his racquet on it. Now we're at Ad-Out and Andre's 1st serve was wide DTT (Down The Tee) and his 2nd serve came in at 98mph to Rodger's FH which he hit a service return winner (Breaking serve).

Also Andre expended so much un-natural (for him) energy in the first 2 1/2 Sets that he ran out of gas. And one more thing, I truly believe Andre within himself gave up and called it a day. But had he applied his skills in the 4th, continuing to pound at Rodger's BH, we might have had a different ending to this drama.
 

ctbmar

Semi-Pro
Agassi at 35
------------
+ points:
i) His 1st serve looks faster to me than when he was 25.
ii) His backhand is more consistent and his down-the-line is better now.
iii) Transition game to the net is better & volleys are better.
iv) More patience and better strategist against younger inexperience players,
less bashing of the ball, play percentage tennis better.

- points:
i) Forehand has weakened over the years.
ii) Movement not as quick over the years.
iii) Return of serves are less deadly
iv) Less effective at hitting balls on the rise and creating angles, which
results in more preparation time for today's opponents.

On the whole, Agassi is about the same standard as when he was 25. Why?
Agassi is still ranked no.2 in terms of hard court rankings done by someone else in a previous thread, which he was behind Sampras then & Federer now.
Agassi has traded wins & losses with Hewitt in terms of Head-Head since 1998 to 2004 and it is equal at 4-4, which shows that Agassi could hang with Hewitt, so presuming Hewitt's standard has maintained, so has Agassi's standard.
 

random1

Rookie
ctbmar said:
Agassi at 35
------------
+ points:
i) His 1st serve looks faster to me than when he was 25.
ii) His backhand is more consistent and his down-the-line is better now.
iii) Transition game to the net is better & volleys are better.
iv) More patience and better strategist against younger inexperience players,
less bashing of the ball, play percentage tennis better.

- points:
i) Forehand has weakened over the years.
ii) Movement not as quick over the years.
iii) Return of serves are less deadly
iv) Less effective at hitting balls on the rise and creating angles, which
results in more preparation time for today's opponents.

On the whole, Agassi is about the same standard as when he was 25. Why?
Agassi is still ranked no.2 in terms of hard court rankings done by someone else in a previous thread, which he was behind Sampras then & Federer now.
Agassi has traded wins & losses with Hewitt in terms of Head-Head since 1998 to 2004 and it is equal at 4-4, which shows that Agassi could hang with Hewitt, so presuming Hewitt's standard has maintained, so has Agassi's standard.

I don't think his forehand has weakened, but rather that he doesn't go for as much, preferring to construct points and lessen errors. Only Andre could tell us if that's true, however. The reason I think this is that at 35, mobility and recovery may be slightly decreased, but strength shouldn't be. I'm 37, and hit harder than ever, but my back aches if I play 2+ hours on hardcourt...

Also, I liked Andre's use of angles vs. Federer. Federer hit a couple of those crazy short angled shots that were winners against everyone else that Andre got to, and returned at even steeper angles. Unfortunately, he couldn't keep chasing them down in the end...

And an aside on the Sampras worship: Sampras still stands as the greatest grass court player(so far), but outside of Wimbledon, Pete and Andre each won 7 slams, with Andre winning at Roland Garros. People seem to forget this when talking about Pete's dominance.

The one are that Sampras and Federer have over Andre is the instinct to win, to really put people away when they get the slightest opportunity. Andre never had that, he's fortunate that he is such a talented ball striker that he has been a top player all these years.

Back in the day, McEnroe and Borg also had the same killer instincts, which is why their matches in '80-'81 were so compelling. To winners at the top of their games unable to put the other away. Awesome...
 

AAAA

Hall of Fame
Did Agassi play his best Tennis?

Good question, only he will really know how much the previous rounds affected his timing and sharpness in the final. However it's my view that Agassi in the USO 2005 final played better and proved tougher competition than:

Cedric Pioline USO final 1993
Todd Martin Aus Open final 1994
Michael Chang USO final 1996
Carlos Moya Aus Open final 1997
Cedric Pioline Wimbledon 1997
 

pmhong

New User
Sampras the perfect tennis player??

Spencer said:
Forget his S/V and even his serve, Sampras had arguably the best baseline game in the 90’s. His forehand was devastating and his running forehand was probably the best of all time. His backhand slice was very reliable and his topspin backhand was also very formidable, he just didn’t chose to use it much because it was a lower percentage shot. Sampras’ true talent was the way he used his unbelievable touch and reflexes. He could meet blistering service returns with ease, picking up half-volleys in the air, besting the toughest passers in the game at the net, and placing oh so delicate drop volleys just out of reach of this opponents. His topspin lob was a great weapon, and his overhead smash? Forget about it. Not only does he not let it drop first, he jumped in the air to meet the ball, something you rarely ever seen. Talk about pure athleticism! This all while playing an assortment of players who played much more varied styles then they do today.

I know that Pete was one of the greatest players, but was he really that talented? You make it sound like he was a perfect player rather than the s/v perfectionist that he was. How do you explain his two loses against Hewett and Safin? My take is that if he lost to them because he was a s/v player. He should have transitioned and played baseline game to beat them, especially Hewett. I do respect Pete for having a lot of heart and guts to win games, but I can't agree that he was as talented as Federer. And Andre played a great match against Federer, more than he could have ever given.
 

pmhong

New User
The tennis guy said:
To play your best doesn't necessarily relate to your skill. You have to be there to really know how tough it was for Federer to play well there with completely one-sided fan support in favor of Agassi. In matches between Agassi and Sampras, most of the time the fans were neutral.

After the second set, I really expected Federer to lose. It is incredible he pulled it off. He had to be so much better than the other guy to pull it off in that environment.

There is no question in my mind after being there, Agassi played inspired tennis, the best I have ever seen him play against top competition. After watching it on tape, I don't think TV captured the environment completely.

I completely agree with this assessment. Federer looked pretty doomed, sad and depressed that day. He didn't have the charisma and flair I normally see. No question it was an uphill battle for him fight through. We all saw his jubilant reaction after he won.
 

Spencer

New User
Federerhoogenbandfan,

Topic sermon? Well I guess Agassi also had his head up Sampras' rear end for all those years before Federer came along. "Today he walked on water" was Agassi's statement after 97' Wimbledon final, high praise indeed.

And to say that athletes may toy with their opponents at times to showboat their capabilities is something that happens often in sports, especially when they have a comfortable lead or are in command. Also you keep sprouting numbers, but one cannot look purely at numbers to tell how truly competitive and closely contested an event was in many sports. Numbers can often be deceptive, something I hope you can understand.
 

Spencer

New User
I also remember (don't know if correctly) that there was a time in Becker's career where he stayed back for much of the match and tried to win from the baseline like Pete did at times. I don't know if they were both trying to test themselves to see if they can win from backthere or just working on their strokes. Now Edberg and Rafter were more pure S/Vers than them right?

You could always tell when Pete cut loose and really let his confidence take over because he would start ripping topspin backhands and jumping in the air to hit overheads, and daring his opponnent to challenge his running forehand. Without his serve, Pete would not have 14 championships but he would have had to furthur develop his baseline game and would still be a multiple slam winner, IMO.
 
For Becker to do was even more of a mistake than for Pete to do that though IMO. I remember Cliff Drysdale and Fred Stolle going crazy whenever Becker tried to do that, it was funny to watch and hear, his former coach Nick Bolliteri said it was an ego thing on his part.
 

FiveO

Hall of Fame
Sampras v. Agassi '95 US Open

For clarity I'll re-state my contention: Sampras groundies were on par with the best fast court groundstrokers during the early to mid '90's.

Also for clarity I am not saying who the better player is, Sampras or Federer. I am a fan of both.

As another poster stated I also have been watching pro tennis for many years and watched live or on TV many, many matches.

I have nearly all big Sampras matches from '90's through 2002 on tape. For the same reasons I am amassing tapes of Feds matches. Because other posters were as adamant as I, regarding their memory of Sampras ground game I decided to take a couple hours and view the tape of the '95 USO final between Agassi and Sampras to review how the baseline rallies in that match went and to look at the numbers. I think we can agree that both players were at their peaks in 1995 with AA entering the Open ranked and seeded #1 and Sampras ranked and seeded #2.

My definition of a baseline rally, going into this, was four hits in court: serve, return, 1 groundie by the server and 1 groundie by the returner. This eliminated one-two combos and serve and volley points for both players. It also includes any forays to net after that rally number was reached. I simply scored it by who won the point, by any means: winners, forced errors and unforced errors.

The Numbers:

First Set won by Sampras 6-4

Pure baseline points won:

Agassi: 7
Sampras: 6 (including 22 stroke rally to break Agassi on set point/the 22nd stroke was a Sampras x-court topspin bh into Agassi's bh corner which AA did not run for.)

Sampras net appoaches after rally:

Won: 0
Lost: 0

Agassi net approaches after rally:

Won: 1
Lost: 1

First set subtotals:

Agassi: 8
Sampras: 7

Second Set won by Sampras 6-3

Pure baseline points won:

Agassi: 5
Sampras: 7

Sampras net appoaches after rally:

Won: 3
Lost: 1

Agassi net approaches after rally:

Won: 1
Lost: 1

Second set subtotals:

Agassi: 7
Sampras: 11

Third Set won by Agassi 6-4

Pure baseline points won:

Agassi: 6
Sampras: 3


Sampras net appoaches after rally:

Won: 3
Lost: 1

Agassi net approaches after rally:

Won: 1
Lost: 0

Third set subtotals:

Agassi: 8
Sampras: 6

Fourth Set won by Sampras 7-5

Pure baseline points won:

Agassi: 9
Sampras: 8

Sampras net appoaches after rally:

Won: 0
Lost: 1

Agassi net approaches after rally:

Won: 1
Lost: 1

Fourth set subtotals:

Agassi: 11
Sampras: 9

Match totals/points won via baseline rally (4 hits or more):

Agassi: 34
Sampras: 33


67 total baseline rally points over 4 sets and it was Agassi by +1.

I would submit that Sampras' groundies were on par with Agassi on faster surfaces during the early to mid '90's and I'm relieved to learn that I'm not suffering memory loss.
 

BigboyDan

Semi-Pro
There is no way in the world that Agassi is as good now as he was in 1995 - not even remotely; says all about Federer's current competition on tour...
 

urban

Legend
I read an interesting, but somewhat strange account in Becker's book on the question, why Agassi could read his serve so well. Agassi told him on the 'Oktoberfest' at Munich: Becker, when ready to serve, would open his mouth and show with his thong the direction of his following serve. Later Becker held his mouth shut.
 
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