Did Djokovic and Becker choke against their greatest rivals in Grand Slams?

[Deleted member 77403]

Probably because Djokovic is the far superior HC player so it's seen as more of an anomaly whenever Nadal beats him on that surface.

Nadal deservedly won that match, I don't feel anyone should take credit away from him for that, he was there to play from start to finish, mentally in it to win it. Novak though didn't turn up until that 54 shot rally in the second set, and we got two competitive sets that they split one a piece before Novak again fell off. I would say Novak was more mentally into the 2010 match than the 2013 one.

 

[StrongRule]

Miami 2011
Montreal 2013
AO 2012
RG 2013
Madrid 2009
Wimbeldon 2018
A step down but still good or better
Hamburg 2008
Rome 2009
MC 2009
Queens 2008
Olympics 2008
RG 2008
Rome 2011
MC 2015
USO 2011
Rome 2014
USO 2010
Miami 2007
Madrid 2011
Olympics 2008
Rome 2012
It is possibly not the best but the quality is still high in the rivalry.

MC 2015? Seriously?

 

[RS]

Stopped reading at MC 2015.

The score line was actually misleading in that case. It was at least decent match IMO. It was one of Nadal better CC performances in 2015.

 

[StrongRule]

Look, you jumped in defensive when I cleared with you that Djokovic playing bad doesn't take away from Nadal's win, you somehow think it does, and I assured you it doesn't, so not sure what you are now trying to get out of this exchange.

I still wonder where did you see me saying Nadal choked in AO 2012. I'm really interested now.

 

[StrongRule]

The score line was actually misleading in that case. It was at least decent match IMO. It was one of Nadal better CC performances in 2015.

Lol, no. He was so terrible mentally, it's not even funny...

 

[Deleted member 77403]

I still wonder where did you see me saying Nadal choked in AO 2012. I'm really interested now.

If I come across the thread, I'll point it in your direction.

 

[RS]

Lol, no. He was so terrible mentally, it's not even funny...

He was up in both sets yes. Djokovic was great in that match. Mentally terrible doesn’t mean a match can’t be at least decent IMO.

 

[Djokovic2011]

Nadal deservedly won that match, I don't feel anyone should take credit away from him for that, he was there to play from start to finish, mentally in it to win it. Novak though didn't turn up until that 54 shot rally in the second set, and we got two competitive sets that they split one a piece before Novak again fell off. I would say Novak was more mentally into the 2010 match than the 2013 one.

Don't get me wrong, Nadal was the deserved winner and should get credit for it. All I'm saying is that given that Djokovic is the better HC player, it's more understandable that people question why he lost such a big match to Nadal on that surface, i.e where he went wrong, than if it was the other way round, which let's face it would be more expected.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Don't get me wrong, Nadal was the deserved winner and should get credit for it. All I'm saying is that given that Djokovic is the better HC player, it's more understandable that people question why he lost such a big match to Nadal on that surface, i.e where he went wrong, than if it was the other way round, which let's face it would be more expected.

I get your point completely, it was the same way when Djokovic was beating Nadal in Madrid and Rome, the questions were more about what went wrong for Nadal. I remember reading those. Nadal is expected to win the clay matches, and Djokovic is expected the win the non-clay matches, so when the opposite happens, these questions do arise.

 

[StrongRule]

He was up in both sets yes. Djokovic was great in that match. Mentally terrible doesn’t mean a match can’t be at least decent IMO.

I didn't see how Djokovic was great, sorry. He really WAS great in MC 2013 final which for some reason is not on your list. In MC 2015 I never had the feeling that Djokovic is playing great tennis, I only had a feeling that Nadal is playing his worst tennis, and is mentally off. And note that on the following day Djokovic had big problems with Berdych.

 

[StrongRule]

Look, you jumped in defensive when I cleared with you that Djokovic playing bad doesn't take away from Nadal's win, you somehow think it does, and I assured you it doesn't, so not sure what you are now trying to get out of this exchange.

Again, your first comment was about Djokovic being mentally off during the whole match. I responded to that, wrote that I disagree. I never said Djokovic played great during the whole match so I have no idea why you are trying to bring this against me.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Again, your first comment was about Djokovic being mentally off during the whole match. I responded to that, wrote that I disagree. I never said Djokovic played great during the whole match so I have no idea why you are trying to bring this against me.

OK I am not discussing this any further because now it is going into a discussion about you and me instead of the match.

 

[Thetouch]

Not sure whether this is due to choking but Becker in general had a little bit the habit to have loosing H2H in slams against players he led outside of slams:

Edberg 1-3 in slams (25-10 in overall!!)
Ivanisevic 1-2 in slams (10-9 overall)
Rafter 0-1 in slams (2-1 overall)
McEnroe 0-1 in slams (8-2 overall!!)
Wilander 0-3 in slams (7-3 overall !!!!! all his losses here came at slams

I think his 2 losses against Edberg in WB and the FO hurt him the most because he didn't seem to care much when losing to Mac or Wilander and Goran in RG. At the same time he was dominating Lendl in Slams 5:1 (and even that one loss was very close) like no other player, while Lendl leading overall. Becker should have been a player to win 10 slams at least.

 

[RS]

I didn't see how Djokovic was great, sorry. He really WAS great in MC 2013 final which for some reason is not on your list. In MC 2015 I never had the feeling that Djokovic is playing great tennis, I only had a feeling that Nadal is playing his worst tennis, and is mentally off. And note that on the following day Djokovic had big problems with Berdych.

Djokovic dropped vs Berdych IMO. He tore through the draw before that. Reminded me of him in RG 15. Maybe good/very good was better word than great.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Djokovic dropped vs Berdych IMO. He tore through the draw before that. Reminded me of him in RG 15. Maybe good/very good was better word than great.

This is known as The Nadal Effect, and something that has been spoken about here numerous times. Djokovic and Federer are both impacted by a Nadal match before the final in different ways. To beat Nadal you need everything heightened, you physical game, but most importantly your mental game, you simply cannot afford a slip up against Rafa or he will make you pay. When Djokovic plays Nadal, he plays it emotional and mentally like it is a final, he pours a lot of himself into the match, what happens as a result is, he becomes flat for the following match because he hasn't recovered from it, the mental and emotional side is very difficult. Examples would be his coming in loose against Nishikori in Rome 2016, against Murray at RG 2015 where he lost his way, MC 2015 against Berdych.

Federer on the other hand thrives, because he goes with the mentality that if he has beaten Nadal, he can win against anyone, he gets wings from it, the only time he couldn't make it happen was Wimbledon 2019 against Djokovic, even though he had MP on his serve.

 

[StrongRule]

This is known as The Nadal Effect, and something that has been spoken about here numerous times. Djokovic and Federer are both impacted by a Nadal match before the final in different ways. To beat Nadal you need everything heightened, you physical game, but most importantly your mental game, you simply cannot afford a slip up against Rafa or he will make you pay. When Djokovic plays Nadal, he plays it emotional and mentally like it is a final, he pours a lot of himself into the match, what happens as a result is, he becomes flat for the following match because he hasn't recovered from it, the mental and emotional side is very difficult. Examples would be his coming in loose against Nishikori in Rome 2016, against Murray at RG 2015 where he lost his way, MC 2015 against Berdych.

Federer on the other hand thrives, because he goes with the mentality that if he has beaten Nadal, he can win against anyone, he gets wings from it, the only time he couldn't make it happen was Wimbledon 2019 against Djokovic, even though he had MP on his serve.

Not in 2015 though.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Not in 2015 though.

I don't think Djokovic went in anytime into a Nadal match thinking it would be easy, regardless of whatever Nadal brought, and yes, I know Nadal was a shell of himself in 2015, it doesn't mean that Djokovic didn't ramp up the engines to ensure his win. He has a certain way of approaching matches against Federer, Nadal and Murray and he doesn't really deviate from that, which is why he prefers playing them more in the final.

 

[OldschoolKIaus]

So Nowek is joka now, no? Umbeleebeble.

 

[Lew II]

Djokovic leads Nadal 5-1 outside RG since 2011.

He did what he had to.

 

[mika1979]

Except Djokovic did beat Nadal on FO.

thats fine their gs results are skewed because they met almost half the time at the fo if it was an even spread i am sure novak would be aheaf too

 

[MichaelNadal]

I disagree. All 4 matches Djokovic lost against Murray and Wawrinka were lost deservedly; fair and square. He lost against better players on a day. Choke is when your performance dramatically decline when playing crucial points and I have seen elements of that in Djokovic's loss against Nadal in 2013 RG SF (the net).

Nadal should have won that match in 4. The net is overrated.

 

[JasonZ]

Their rivalry is overrated in general. If we look at the level of play we will not find too many great matches. Only a few.

The most overrated rivarly was the Sampras Agassi rivarly.

 

[DerekNoleFam1]

I don't why you need to be so insecure here. Nobody is taking credit away from Nadal, but Djokovic's head was scrambled a lot in that match, even the commentators were picking up, questioning why he wasn't moving his feet, why he wasn't getting to the net to put away the balls he was doing in previous matches, why his shot selection was questionable. Nadal played very clutch at a key point in the match, that goes without saying, but this conversation is over if you think Djokovic was playing great from start to finish.

Djoker's head was scrambled well before this match.
The RG and Wimbledon losses earlier in the year had him low in confidence, and Nadal was playing very well that summer in the US.
And yes, Nadal was very clutch in that USO'13 final, and was favourite to win it.
Nole was some 6-7 in all Slam finals after RG'14, but since then has gone 10-2, so he has definitely become more clutch since then.

 

[DerekNoleFam1]

Becker is a triple Wimbledon winner, but also lost 4 finals as well.
Not so much a choke against Edberg in those finals, but he did meltdown against Michael Stich, and was never going to beat Sampras in '95.