Did Murray stop Rafa from winning non-calendar year Grand slam? USO '08.

Vote for the correct argument

  • Fed saved Rafa from losing RG'11; and Murray saved Fed from losing USO'08

    Votes: 10 30.3%

  • Nadal deservedly won RG '11 ; and Fed USO '08. No ifs no buts

    Votes: 23 69.7%
  • Total voters
    33
reversef said:
Both options are correct: Both players deserve their title. I don't see how it can be contested: they beat the players in front of them. But also, it would have been much more difficult to beat the player who lost in the SF.
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I was literally just about to type that before I saw your post which probably summed it up better than I was going to.
 
Djokovic2011 said:
Lol at Djokovic being as good in 2013 as in 2011- the delusion is strong in this post. What gets me is why so many Nadal fans can't simply concede that Novak would have likely won an encounter at the FO that year, after all it's not like we can go back in a time machine and see how it would have actually played out. It's almost as if by saying they think Djokovic would have probably won the match that Nadal's 2011 trophy will suddenly disappear or something. Don't worry guys he's still got it you don't have to worry lol! Very strange.
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Yeah, Nole 2011 was better than 2013 and that's a no brainer. He was rock solid from the beginning of the year til the end of USO. The only knock on him is when he was a no show during the indoor season. And even with a poor results, he still sustained a 90 winning percentage at the end of the year. That show how dominant he was from Jan - September. Nole 2013 was never as consistent, he had mental lapses, and the match against Nadal at the FO and USO his level dropped in the middle of the match and still the outcome was close. And since NADALRECORD conceded that Nadal 2013 was better than Nadal 2011, it's a stronger case for Nole would have beat him in 2011 FO final.
 
Nadal had NEVER played Fed at the USO prior to 08 so your assumption that he would beat him doesn't have any proof/concrete base. It's illogical because Fed would be favoured on fast HC even more than high bouncing 2nd week grass of Wimby and there Fed almost beat Nadal.

In contrast, Nole had dismantled Nadal at both Madrid and Rome with Ralph not even winning a set so RG 11 was a gift from Fed.(Hope Fed doesn't rue his decision)
 
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ark_28 said:
The fact of the matter is big John suffered a shock loss in Round 1 that year so even if Nadal has gotten through Murray and then beaten Federer, without having to face Isner there would always have been an asterix next to his win.
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Give us a break, Ark! Would you really have us believe that 2008 Isner would have been capable of stopping 2008 Nadal at the 2008 US Open?

Asterisk my ****! :)
 
monfed said:
Nadal had NEVER played Fed at the USO prior to 08 so your assumption that he would beat him doesn't have any proof/concrete base. It's illogical because Fed would be favoured on fast HC even more than high bouncing 2nd week grass of Wimby and there Fed almost beat Nadal.

In contrast, Nole had dismantled Nadal at both Madrid and Rome with Ralph not even winning a set so RG 11 was a gift from Fed.(Hope Fed doesn't rue his decision)
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Interesting post monfed, but I respectfully disagree to an extent:

You talk about the potential USO final and how Nadal had never played Fed at that event, well Djokovic had never beaten Nadal at the French Open.
In terms of surface, Nadal led the H2H on outdoor hard against Federer at the time of USO 2008, and won 5 months later when they played at the Australian Open.
As for Djokovic Nadal FO encounter, given the clay matches of 2011 before that, I agree with you in saying Djokovic was favourite.
 
Bumping this! Because the Djokerer fans have again taken the "Fed saved Rafa from RG '11 loss" agenda to new heights!

Mistake in thread title, this thread is actually about how "Murray saved Roger's butt in USO 2008".
 
LazyNinja19 said:
Bumping this! Because the Djokerer fans have again taken the "Fed saved Rafa from RG '11 loss" agenda to new heights!

Mistake in thread title, this thread is actually about how "Murray saved Roger's butt in USO 2008".
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Nadal was not fully at his best that USO. He wasn't the player he would become 2 years later at this event.

Also these 2 scenarios are not really the same. Rafa barely beat Fed that year at RG and Fed is his most favorable opponent for a RG final. If Fed managed to give Rafa such a hard time that year, imagine what Djokovic could have done to him,who was fully in his head at that point.

The proof is him losing convincingly at W, despite being at that time superior to Novak on grass
 
LazyNinja19 said:
Bumping this! Because the Djokerer fans have again taken the "Fed saved Rafa from RG '11 loss" agenda to new heights!

Mistake in thread title, this thread is actually about how "Murray saved Roger's butt in USO 2008".
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So let me get this straight, you're winding up Fed fans to get back at Djokovic fans? :lol:
 
The only two people who for me stopped a non-calendar slam from happening was Del Potro at US Open 2009

and

Pete Sampras at Wimbledon 1999.

All others are more hypotheticals.
 
mike danny said:
Nadal was not fully at his best that USO. He wasn't the player he would become 2 years later at this event.

Also these 2 scenarios are not really the same. Rafa barely beat Fed that year at RG and Fed is his most favorable opponent for a RG final. If Fed managed to give Rafa such a hard time that year, imagine what Djokovic could have done to him,who was fully in his head at that point.

The proof is him losing convincingly at W, despite being at that time superior to Novak on grass
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No. Just read the OP.
Thank you!

NatF said:
So let me get this straight, you're winding up Fed fans to get back at Djokovic fans?
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Actually it's some Djokerer fans, i.e. Djoko fans, and some Fed trolls. You know who they are ;)

vive le beau jeu ! said:
... and all this with a self-bumping ! isn't that cool ? :rolleyes:
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1375758217789.gif


:D
 
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Hitman said:
The only two people who for me stopped a non-calendar slam from happening was Del Potro at US Open 2009

and

Pete Sampras at Wimbledon 1999.

All others are more hypotheticals.
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What about Nadal stopping Federer in 05-06 AND 06-07? I think it's safe to say Nadal was the only one who could've and did stop him. And technically we know this. It is not a hypothesis since Federer was actually a RG final win away from achieving it twice.
 
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Steve0904 said:
What about Nadal stopping Federer in 05-06 AND 06-07? I think it's safe to say Nadal was the only one who could've and did stop him. And technically we know this. It is not a hypothesis since Federer was actually a RG final win away from achieving it twice.
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Agree with this. Nadal stopped 2 consecutive CYGS from happening.

On the other hand i have been thinking: what if in 2007 Fed somehow entered USO with AO, RG and W already won? Would he have been totally pressured in the final? Would Djokovic take advantage of this and actually win those 2 sets in the final?
 
Steve0904 said:
What about Nadal stopping Federer in 05-06 AND 06-07? I think it's safe to say Nadal was the only one who could've and did stop him. And technically we know this. It is not a hypothesis since Federer was actually a RG final win away from achieving it twice.
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You're right, but I think of 06 and 07 as Federer going for the calender slam, which is what he would have gotten, plus one.

05 semi...well, he still needed to win the final, and we know judging by what happened this past Jan, that it doesn't always go the way you think it will.
 
You cannot go in retrospect and say "if Fed had won any of those RGs, he would've won CYGS". That's ridiculous!
He was NEVER one match away from CYGS. Had he won one of those RG finals, maybe he would have gone on to lose any of the other 2 slams in those years.
As soon as Fed lost the RG final, he lost the chance.

Btw, the thread title is wrong. This thread is actually for those people who claim that Fed saved Rafa from losing RG 2011, with an argument that Murray saved Fed from losing USO 2008.
 
mike danny said:
Agree with this. Nadal stopped 2 consecutive CYGS from happening.

On the other hand i have been thinking: what if in 2007 Fed somehow entered USO with AO, RG and W already won? Would he have been totally pressured in the final? Would Djokovic take advantage of this and actually win those 2 sets in the final?
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I could see this happening. I could also see Federer losing to Nadal at Wimbledon in 2007 and not even getting to the USO with the first 3 slams. Now sure, perhaps Fed goes into Wimbledon ultra confident after beating Nadal at RG, but if we assume the Wimbledon match plays out as it did Federer might feel extra pressure in the 5th set especially, having won the first 2 slams.

The Wimbledon 2007 final is often overlooked in favour of the epic (I usually dislike that word, but I feel it fits here) that came the year after, and many people don't realize or forget how close Federer came to losing the 2007 final and how great he had to be to stop Nadal. Nadal had 15-40 in back to back Federer service games at 1-1 and 2-2 in the 5th. Who knows what happens if he breaks in either case.
 
LazyNinja19 said:
You cannot go in retrospect and say "if Fed had won any of those RGs, he would've won CYGS". That's ridiculous!
He was NEVER one match away from CYGS. Had he won one of those RG finals, maybe he would have gone on to lose any of the other 2 slams in those years.
As soon as Fed lost the RG final, he lost the chance.

Btw, the thread title is wrong. This thread is actually for those people who claim that Fed saved Rafa from losing RG 2011, with an argument that Murray saved Fed from losing USO 2008.
Click to expand...

No. This thread about overreacting to a bunch of Nadal haters, by coming to down to their level. Lets call this thread for what it is. You don't want to discuss, you want to complain about the haters.
 
Steve0904 said:
I could see this happening. I could also see Federer losing to Nadal at Wimbledon in 2007 and not even getting to the USO with the first 3 slams. Now sure, perhaps Fed goes into Wimbledon ultra confident after beating Nadal at RG, but if we assume the Wimbledon match plays out as it did Federer might feel extra pressure having won the first 2 slams.

Wimbledon 2007 final is often overlooked in favour of the epic (I usually dislike that word, but I feel it fits here) that came the year after, and many people don't realize or forget how close Federer came to losing the 2007 final and how great he had to be to stop Nadal. Nadal had 15-40 in back to back Federer service games at 1-1 and 2-2 in the 5th. Who knows what happens if he breaks in either case.
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The strong era begins in 07 instead of 08?

Since that is the mentality that we are using for the theme of this thread.
 
LazyNinja19 said:
You cannot go in retrospect and say "if Fed had won any of those RGs, he would've won CYGS". That's ridiculous!
He was NEVER one match away from CYGS. Had he won one of those RG finals, maybe he would have gone on to lose any of the other 2 slams in those years.
As soon as Fed lost the RG final, he lost the chance.

Btw, the thread title is wrong. This thread is actually for those people who claim that Fed saved Rafa from losing RG 2011, with an argument that Murray saved Fed from losing USO 2008.
Click to expand...

Calm yourself kid. We're only hijacking your thread after your stupid bump. :rolleyes:
 
Hitman said:
You're right, but I think of 06 and 07 as Federer going for the calender slam, which is what he would have gotten, plus one.

05 semi...well, he still needed to win the final, and we know judging by what happened this past Jan, that it doesn't always go the way you think it will.
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Well he needed to beat Safin in a 2005 SF too. :) That is if we're talking about a CYGS.

Edit: And then an AO final against a really good Aussie.
 
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Steve0904 said:
Well he needed to beat Safin in a 2005 SF too. :) That is if we're talking about a CYGS.
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I was referring to the non calender slam. The CYGS attempted was done and dusted in Melbourne. :)
 
Steve0904 said:
I could see this happening. I could also see Federer losing to Nadal at Wimbledon in 2007 and not even getting to the USO with the first 3 slams. Now sure, perhaps Fed goes into Wimbledon ultra confident after beating Nadal at RG, but if we assume the Wimbledon match plays out as it did Federer might feel extra pressure in the 5th set especially, having won the first 2 slams.

The Wimbledon 2007 final is often overlooked in favour of the epic (I usually dislike that word, but I feel it fits here) that came the year after, and many people don't realize or forget how close Federer came to losing the 2007 final and how great he had to be to stop Nadal. Nadal had 15-40 in back to back Federer service games at 1-1 and 2-2 in the 5th. Who knows what happens if he breaks in either case.
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Yep, Wimby 2007 was an incredible match as well. But i think the reason it's not seen in the same light as the 2008 "epic", is because the result was the norm, i.e. Federer winning.
2008, Rafa finally beat Fed, after the latter saved a match point in the 4th, and with all that drama, finishing so late in the night.
Both are Fedal classics!

Hitman said:
No. This thread about overreacting to a bunch of Nadal haters, by coming to down to their level. Lets call this thread for what it is. You don't want to discuss, you want to complain about the haters.
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Yes, you're right ;) This thread was started with the intention of arguing with the Nad-haters, by going with their logic.
The point is, that the Nadal fans don't keep on bringing this USO 2008, and that Murray saved Fed, when they could. But the RG 2011, is always brought up on this forum, over & over again.
 
Hitman said:
I was referring to the non calender slam. The CYGS attempted was done and dusted in Melbourne. :)
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Oh ok. My apologies. I wasn't including the 2005 French in the non CYGS though. I was going from 05 Wimbledon to 06 RG and then from 06 Wimbledon to 07 RG.
 
LazyNinja19 said:
Yep, Wimby 2007 was an incredible match as well. But i think the reason it's not seen in the same light as the 2008 "epic", is because the result was the norm, i.e. Federer winning.
2008, Rafa finally beat Fed, after the latter saved a match point in the 4th, and with all that drama, finishing so late in the night.
Both are Fedal classics!



Yes, you're right ;) This thread was started with the intention of arguing with the Nad-haters, by going with their logic.
The point is, that the Nadal fans don't keep on bringing this USO 2008, and that Murray saved Fed, when they could. But the RG 2011, is always brought up on this forum, over & over again.
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One thing you do need to understand about that 08 semi. Murray and Nadal were playing their match over two days, and towards the end, Nadal was done. Murray was also done, and evident by the fact that Federer very quickly dismantled him in the final. Federer had won his match and got a day's rest, while Nadal would have had to play three days straight inlcuding the final. This isn't the AO09 Verdasco situation, where he did indeed have a day off to recover, in US008 there were no days and Rafa's tank after the long summer was on empty. Murray grinded him down pretty bad at the end.
 
Steve0904 said:
Oh ok. My apologies. I wasn't including the 2005 French in the non CYGS though. I was going from 05 Wimbledon to 06 RG and then from 06 Wimbledon to 07 RG.
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Yes, I see you point. In those cases, you are correct. Nadal did stop two non calender grand slams. Ferrer has stopped one. Federer has stopped one. Sampras has stopped one. Del Potro has stopped one.
 
Hitman said:
One thing you do need to understand about that 08 semi. Murray and Nadal were playing their match over two days, and towards the end, Nadal was done. Murray was also done, and evident by the fact that Federer very quickly dismantled him in the final. Federer had won his match and got a day's rest, while Nadal would have had to play three days straight inlcuding the final. This isn't the AO09 Verdasco situation, where he did indeed have a day off to recover, in US008 there were no days and Rafa's tank after the long summer was on empty. Murray grinded him down pretty bad at the end.
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Yes, but at the same time USO '08 match was nowhere near as taxing as AO '09. Rafa ALWAYS shows up for Fed. And he would have, had he beaten Muzza.
 
Hitman said:
Yes, I see you point. In those cases, you are correct. Nadal did stop two non calender grand slams. Ferrer has stopped one. Federer has stopped one. Sampras has stopped one. Del Potro has stopped one.
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Nadal stopped 3. He stopped Djokovic as well. :)
 
LazyNinja19 said:
Yep, Wimby 2007 was an incredible match as well. But i think the reason it's not seen in the same light as the 2008 "epic", is because the result was the norm, i.e. Federer winning.
2008, Rafa finally beat Fed, after the latter saved a match point in the 4th, and with all that drama, finishing so late in the night.
Both are Fedal classics!
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2008 is not epic only because Nadal won. It is epic because of the way the match played out and would've been just as epic had Federer won it. 6 Wimbys in a row had never been done before that either.
 
LazyNinja19 said:
Yes, but at the same time USO '08 match was nowhere near as taxing as AO '09. Rafa ALWAYS shows up for Fed. And he would have, had he beaten Muzza.
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Nadal was rested heading in AO09, he had a long off season, he didn't play the WTF in 08. But that US08, even the biggest Nadal fans knew his tank was empty. He had played so much, add the Olympics into that hectic summer, that the Murray match was one match too far. He looked like he was on fumes at the end, with the way Murray was moving him around. The turn around less than 24 hours wouldn't be easy...considering it took 9-7 in the fifth set to beat Federer at Wimbledon, and another five set in AO 09, it would have been another long match. So, it wouldn't have been as clear cut as you think.
 
LazyNinja19 said:
Yes, but at the same time USO '08 match was nowhere near as taxing as AO '09. Rafa ALWAYS shows up for Fed. And he would have, had he beaten Muzza.
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Nadal was visibly tired in the Murray match. Something he never showed in AO 2009. Plus, even though Nadal did have the mental edge by then, their matches were still a lot closer than they are today. They were not basically foregone conclusions like they are today.
 
Hitman said:
Nadal was rested heading in AO09, he had a long off season, he didn't play the WTF in 08. But that US08, even the biggest Nadal fans knew his tank was empty. He had played so much, add the Olympics into that hectic summer, that the Murray match was one match too far. He looked like he was on fumes at the end, with the way Murray was moving him around. The turn around less than 24 hours wouldn't be easy...considering it took 9-7 in the fifth set to beat Federer at Wimbledon, and another five set in AO 09, it would have been another long match. So, it wouldn't have been as clear cut as you think.
Click to expand...

Yes. It could have worked against Rafa to get to the final at USO 2008. If Federer beat Nadal there perhaps he takes the "mental" win into AO 2009 and wins that as well. You never know. It is easy to look back in hindsight.
 
Steve0904 said:
Nadal was visibly tired in the Murray match. Something he never showed in AO 2009. Plus, even though Nadal did have the mental edge by then, their matches were still a lot closer than they are today. They were not basically foregone conclusions like they are today.
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This is 100 percent true.

Nowdays they are forgone conclusions, but back then, it was still pretty tight outside the of that F0 08 final.

I think that contrast to that was that Djokovic was cleaning Nadal's clock on the clay heading into the French. They were straight set beatings, not epics as the Fedal matches were excluding that FO 08 final.

Now, I am not saying that Djokovic would have won against Nadal that year, because Nadal is something else in Paris. We all know that.
 
well it's quite a tricky one. Murray no doubt stopped Nadal in his tracks but would he have beaten Federer. He was certainly in Federer's head as countless posters including the opening poster have said but at the time I think Nadal might have been a bit worn out from his exertions or so the story seems to go (although perhaps that is a Nadal fan type excuse that they make and I'm a Murray one so I wouldn't make it up but I remember something about this - dunno how much validity it had). What I'm saying is if he was worn out then Fed on the US surface might have actually beaten him. Not sure. 50/50.

I would have made Djokovic 60/40 favourite for the French 2011 if he'd made the final. So yes I think both were "saved" a bit. But probably Fed saved nadal in 2011 a little bit more than Murray saved Fed. But there are definite parallels if that's what the opening poster is alluding to.

So overall leaning towards both saved but the bigger "saving" probably being 2011. But not by much though.
 
Jam said:
well it's quite a tricky one. Murray no doubt stopped Nadal in his tracks but would he have beaten Federer. He was certainly in Federer's head as countless posters including the opening poster have said but at the time I think Nadal might have been a bit worn out from his exertions or so the story seems to go (although perhaps that is a Nadal fan type excuse that they make and I'm a Murray one so I wouldn't make it up but I remember something about this - dunno how much validity it had). What I'm saying is if he was worn out then Fed on the US surface might have actually beaten him. Not sure. 50/50.

I would have made Djokovic 60/40 favourite for the French 2011 if he'd made the final. So yes I think both were "saved" a bit. But probably Fed saved nadal in 2011 a little bit more than Murray saved Fed. But there are definite parallels if that's what the opening poster is alluding to.

So overall leaning towards both saved but the bigger "saving" probably being 2011. But not by much though.
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Well said. Agree pretty much, except that IMO, 2008 was the bigger save. ;)
Thank you for an objective comment!
 
LazyNinja19 said:
Well said. Agree pretty much, except that IMO, 2008 was the bigger save. ;)
Thank you for an objective comment!
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If it was a bigger save which it may or may not have been (who knows!!) do you have any sympathy with the 2008 US Open excuse that I've heard that Nadal was "worn out"? Surely for consistency the answer has to be no otherwise Fed would likely have beaten him. If he wasn't the case and Murray was simply too good on the day then yeah maybe both are about level in terms of "saves".

Also US Open was a better surface for Fed than Oz Open. Mind you we could say that about grass and 2 months before US Open he was turned over there by Nadal.

Anyway, all speculation. A lot of it hinges in the "worn out" theory. If he wasn't then yes probably a bit of a save but then Murray beat him fair and square. If he was then less of a save as I'd lean a bit more to Fed.
 
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LazyNinja19 said:
Chances of Rafa beating Fed at USO '08 >>>>> Chances of Novak beating Rafa at RG '11
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Read this post again:

Also these 2 scenarios are not really the same. Rafa barely beat Fed that year at RG and Fed is his most favorable opponent for a RG final. If Fed managed to give Rafa such a hard time that year, imagine what Djokovic could have done to him,who was fully in his head at that point.

Nadal did not have a single solution over Djoker in 2011.
 
lots of glitter in my carpet. did a unicorn **** in it?
 
LazyNinja19 said:
Chances of Rafa beating Fed at USO '08 >>>>> Chances of Novak beating Rafa at RG '11
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Lol. The same Nadal that got bruised at the USO by Ferrer the year before? Same Nadal that was humiliated by Youzhny earlier that same year? Same Nadal that didn't make the final in IW? Same Nadal that got straight-setted by Davydenko in Miami? Same Nadal that didn't make the finals in Cincinnati? The same Nadal that couldn't get past a quite ordinary (then) Andy Murray at the USO? This player was more likely to beat Federer in the US Open final than a player that had humiliated Nadal in his backyard, in front of his family, in front of his friends and fans and basically bushwacked him wherever the two had met for half a year? That Nadal? It doesn't matter what size font you use, it won't augment your assertions. Should have let this thread die.
 
Russeljones said:
Lol. The same Nadal that got bruised at the USO by Ferrer the year before? Same Nadal that was humiliated by Youzhny earlier that same year? Same Nadal that didn't make the final in IW? Same Nadal that got straight-setted by Davydenko in Miami? Same Nadal that didn't make the finals in Cincinnati? The same Nadal that couldn't get past a quite ordinary (then) Andy Murray at the USO? This player was more likely to beat Federer in the US Open final than a player that had humiliated Nadal in his backyard, in front of his family, in front of his friends and fans and basically bushwacked him wherever the two had met for half a year? That Nadal? It doesn't matter what size font you use, it won't augment your assertions. Should have let this thread die.
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Humiliated (???) in front of his family? Rafa's family supports him no matter what! Tennis is just a game, family is forever!
Humiliated (???) in front of his friends? Real friends support him no matter what! Tennis is just a game!
Humiliated (???) in front of his fans? Real fans support him no matter what!

As for losing Murray at the 2008 USO, Rafa was very tired after winning the Olympic gold medal in Beijing (he also won FO and Wimbledon titles).
 
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octobrina10 said:
Humiliated (???) in front of his family? Rafa's family supports him no matter what!
Humiliated (???) in front of his friends? Real friends support him no matter what!
Humiliated (???) in front of his fans? Real fans support him no matter what!

As for losing Murray at the 2008 USO, Rafa was very tired after winning the Olympic gold medal in Beijing (he also won FO and Wimbledon titles).
Click to expand...

Tiredness is a really weak excuse sweetie pie. You do know that Nadal was only 22 at the time right?
 
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