Did Nole's forehand peak in late 2007 / Early 2008?

BauerAlmeida

Professional
Title is pretty much self-explanatory. I think in 2011 it was really great at times, but I would still peak that period, but post-2011 was it ever as good as it was back then?
 

MadariKatu

Semi-Pro
I'd say that by then he was already a great player, very much established at the top of the tour, but I think it's obvious that his peak started in 2011
 

D.Nalby12

G.O.A.T.
Yes. It was technically very sound shot in beginning. He went for offense all the time and it was way too much powerful then.
 

Zoid

Professional
Djok earlier forehand iterations were typical of a young player; a little longer and a little more aggressive. I don't think it was as solid as it has been in recent years, however. Interesting to note that over the years Fed, Nadal, and Nole have all shortened their take backs a bit; perhaps to help them play further up the court, to conserve energy, or to adapt to an equipment change. I've written about their forehands recently here:
https://www.bandytennis.com/post/forehand-theory-developing-a-virtuous-swing-path
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
2011 was more match deciding and still had solid consistency. It shades 2015 imo.
Yeah, 2011'ovic doesn't let Wawa freely dictate in the FO final, 2011 all day for me. Aesthetically and gamestyle wise I like the 2008 forehand the most but it was most effective in 2011 IMO. In 2015 and early 2016 he obviously had days where he was seeing the ball really early and it felt he could do anything he liked with it but in general it was more of a weapon in 2011.
 

SonnyT

Hall of Fame
He had a great forehand in '10-12. He saved double MP's against Federer at '10 USO, with 2 thunderbolt FH. Not to mention, he saved the 1st MP against Federer the following year, with a FH return.

Go watch the seven straight finals he won over Nadal in '11-12, and tell me who had the more potent FH in those matches!
 

wang07

Semi-Pro
2011 better. Young Djoker in 2007-2008 was a lot of fun to watch and yes he was aggressive, but in 2011 his FH (as well as everything else) was more consistent and yet he still blew Fed off the court on HC and Rafa everywhere, including on clay twice. It was insane.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
I will take his current forehand over all previous versions.
He does everything with it and it is more consistent.
He looks to be more comfortable ripping it down the line now as well.
yeah, because Djokovic didn't do that in 11.

I mean seriously, how short is your memory?

 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Dude he has been practicing for 10 more years.
What is wrong with you?
Yeah, I'm sure physical stuff+mental stuff doesn't matter at all. Just that he's been practicing for 10 more years.
The concept of peak doesn't exist/is worthless etc. etc.
 
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PETEhammer

Guest
Yeah, I'm sure physical stuff+mental stuff doesn't matter at all. Just that he's been practicing for 10 more years.
The concept of peak doesn't exist/is worthless etc. etc.
It requires a radical re-conception in the Modern era, as medicines and recovery methods have made comparison to past ATGs without those methods silly at best, and grossly unjust at worst.
 

Jonesy

Hall of Fame
I will take his current forehand over all previous versions.
He does everything with it and it is more consistent.
He looks to be more comfortable ripping it down the line now as well.
I cannot agree more, his technique never been more sound.

In the past he had a greater backwing and a longer follow-through, that took away his fluidity.

The more compact swing is indeed a more refined stroke in all aspects, including exerting force and dictating pace.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
It requires a radical re-conception in the Modern era, as medicines and recovery methods have made comparison to past ATGs without those methods silly at best, and grossly unjust at worst.
that's about longevity, not peak.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
If longevity increases, then primes and peaks extend as well
no. Fed's prime still remains 03 YEC to AO 10. Maybe a primeish period from 11 USO to 12 Cincy.
Djoko's is still 11-16 RG. Prime-ish year in 08. Prime-ish period from grass season 18 to AO 19.

Just that they win past their primes more (weaker competition for Djoko helps him significantly in this regard. Also helped fed in Wim 17/AO 18)
 
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Noleberic123

G.O.A.T.
Yeah, I'm sure physical stuff+mental stuff doesn't matter at all. Just that he's been practicing for 10 more years.
The concept of peak doesn't exist/is worthless etc. etc.
His FH since the start of 2020 has been the best of his career. I think he worked on it extensively because he was having trouble generating offence off that wing in 2019.

That doesn't mean he is a better player now than in 2011, I don't think @swordtennis means that at all.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
His FH since the start of 2020 has been the best of his career. I think he worked on it extensively because he was having trouble generating offence off that wing in 2019.

That doesn't mean he is a better player now than in 2011, I don't think @swordtennis means that at all.
No, its not. Please watch some matches in 11 and even 15. The short memories are just awful.
I dont't think he means he's a better player than in 11, but the "he's been practicing it for 10 more years" logic to justify for FH is ludicrous.
 
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PETEhammer

Guest
no. Fed's prime still remains 03 YEC to AO 10. Maybe a primeish period from 11 USO to 12 Cincy.
Djoko's is still 11-16 RG. Prime-ish year in 08. Prime-ish period from grass season 18 to AO 19.
Fair enough. I think that longevity allows for resurgences that are near equal, if not equal, to prime periods though, e.g. Fed 2014-15, 17-18
 

swordtennis

G.O.A.T.
No, its not. Please watch some matches in 11 and even 15. The short memories are just awful.
I dont't think he means he's a better player than in 11, but the "he's been practicing it for 10 more years" logic to justify for FH is ludicrous.
Yes it is.
 

Noleberic123

G.O.A.T.
No, its not. Please watch some matches in 11 and even 15. The short memories are just awful.
I dont't think he means he's a better player than in 11, but the "he's been practicing it for 10 more years" logic to justify for FH is ludicrous.
I watch matches from 11 and 15 all the time. Djokovic's FH in 11 was just more aggressive and in 15 it was a slightly downgraded version of his current FH.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
When Djoko gets hammered next time (ex: like he did in RG 2020 final vs Nadal), please came back with a straight face and hail his FH. :-D

Forget prime level younger ATG, someone like prime Wawrinka/prime Murray would've exposed current Djokovic's FH deficiencies compared to 2011/15.
 

swordtennis

G.O.A.T.
No, its not. Please watch some matches in 11 and even 15. The short memories are just awful.
I dont't think he means he's a better player than in 11, but the "he's been practicing it for 10 more years" logic to justify for FH is ludicrous.
I have.
You are a FedFan.
When Djoko gets hammered next time like he did in RG 2020 final vs Nadal, please came back with a straight face and hail his FH. :-D

Forget prime level younger ATG, someone like prime Wawrinka/prime Murray would've exposed current Djokovic's FH deficiencies compared to 2011/15.
Dude this is far more than djokovic's forehand.
There is something more personal about your rantings and ravings.
Are you ok?
 
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PETEhammer

Guest
I think even Pete would have won more slams if he had competition for the slam race
Probably. He still had it in him to bring a scary level of tennis when necessary. 2001 USO matches against Rafter, Agassi, and especially Safin in that semi all come to mind. Was recently watching the 2001 USO Safin semi actually and was amazed at how crisply and brilliantly he volleyed on brutal passing shots and returns. Safin was playing really good and Pete still straight setted him. Too bad he was exhausted for that final.

Anyways, point being, I think Pete still had prime level tennis in him, with perhaps some technical improvements that could have negated his explosive decline. The thing is, he didn't need to bring it as much since he was the clear GOAT at the time with no one behind him, and of course no homogenization so no reason to think anyone would emerge anytime soon. If there were current recovery methods, and competitors on his heels, no question Pete could have adapted to keep winning slams until 2006 or 07 if necessary.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Fair enough. I think that longevity allows for resurgences that are near equal, if not equal, to prime periods though, e.g. Fed 2014-15, 17-18
no, that's just weaker competition making it look that way

prime fed does not get hammered in straights at AO as Nadal did to him in AO 14 or lose to frickin seppi in 4 sets
prime fed does not lose to gulbis in 5 sets at RG or get thrashed by Stan in straights without breaking him even once
prime fed does not return as badly as he did in Wim 14 final or hit as weakly off the ground (thanks to racquet change, I know) or play at a high level only for 2 sets (Wim 15 final)
prime fed does not nearly lose to Monfils in 4 sets at USO or get beaten in straights by Cilic. would certainly play better and not choke as badly as he did in USO 15 final (yes, USO 09 final which was the worst at his prime - was significantly better)

AO 04-10 Fed (minus 08) was way better than Fed at AO 17/18.
played well at Wim 17. would rate it higher than WIm 15 though not by much., but still lesser than Wim 12 QF-F, which was still post prime IMO (at best prime-ish)

Fed 11-12 was better than 14-15 and 17-18.
 
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abmk

Bionic Poster
I have.
You are a FedFan.

Dude this is far more than djokovic's forehand.
There is something more personal about your rantings and ravings.
Are you ok?
Its about Djokovic FH - a clear example of some recency bias/short term memories.
I'm doing perfectly fine.
Are you going to make more ridiculous statements and then suggests others aren't ok mentally for calling it out? Is that your new MO now? You already did it with mike danny.
 
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