stringertom
Bionic Poster
Beckham is all hype. Not even top 10 all-time great.
Diego Maradona dies aged 60
- Thread starter Red Rick
- Start date
NonP
Legend
But this bias works the other way around, too. As someone who grew up in (East) Asia I can tell you Pelé was the first and only footballer I can recall being aware of early on... and I wasn't even alive when the geezer retired for good! Your late countryman did come second, yes, but given that his greatest accomplishment actually happened in my lifetime that order of recognition does say something, no?
Also I've always thought you're more or less my age, but assuming you're a bit older (or younger for that matter) I'm wondering if our difference of perception is due as much to our respective age as to our sociocultural backgrounds. Personally, I can tell you that the Jordan hype is unlike anything I've seen in sports or even in pop culture except for Harry Potter (unless you count Titanic which was obviously something of a one-off). The guy even inspired a whole manga series for gawd's sake - its hero is clearly based on Dennis Rodman during the Bulls dynasty - which went on to sell over 121 copies in Japan alone. (Yes, I read the whole thing when it came out, mostly before I gave a hoot about basketball.) The closest equivalent I can think of is the other MJ phenomenon - admittedly on a smaller scale as it's doubtful any living figure has ever reached Jackson's height of fame, but similar in its sheer ubiquity across national and cultural boundaries.
Of course you'll respond that football is more popular worldwide than even basketball by some distance, but this logic falls apart when you look no further than the state of today's ATP. Maybe you disagree that this is quite possibly the weakest field of (male) players in the OE, but if not how do you explain this sorry state of affairs when we've got more people and presumably more active and prospective fans in the world now than ever? Could that be because we also have more sports, more pastimes and plain more distractions today? Even if you insist this doesn't apply to Maradona's heyday it's surely something to chew on.
Now you might counter that the internet helps our stars become more recognized, but I say its infinite variety of options makes the opposite just as likely and as I've pointed out it's a mistake to treat internet metrics as an accurate reflection of the whole swath of public opinion. What else? There's more TV coverage, yes, but it's one thing to be able to watch any of these sports on a major network and quite another to do the same on a cable or premium channel, let alone online. And correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think football/soccer was more widely shown around the world on free-to-air TV networks during Maradona's prime than in the '90s to the early '00s before the internet began eating into broadcast TV, or even compared to NBA coverage in MJ's own salad days. The same applies to tennis as well in my experience: the last time I recall any of my real-life friends talk about the sport was during the '09 Wimbledon final when it still used to air on NBC, and when I recently asked my mom (who continues to live outside the US) about tennis stars past and present the only ones she could name without being prompted were Navratilova and Evert and she had no clue about any of the current Big 3. Which isn't a big revelation, BTW, as research shows that even today TV is the most influential of all media by far when it comes to shaping public opinion.
And so on. All this isn't to say that Maradona isn't a bigger sports icon than Jordan, Pelé, Ali, Bolt or whoever. Just saying, the population argument alone doesn't hold water. The world is more complicated, and I say for the better.
Or an NBA star!
You are right in the sense that there is no definitive answer to this topic. Maybe even Messi or Ronaldo are bigger stars, taking advantage of this globalized, interconected era. Having said that, I think there is little doubt that Maradona had more of a cultural, historical impact in Latin America than any other sport figure, and dare I say it, any other figure of any kind. If to Latin America we add Europe, Africa and the middle east to the mix (Maradona was definitely bigger than MJ in those regions), then if not an outright checkmate, it comes awfully close to that. Maradona's image was being displayed on Tianjin's tower facade yesterday. And that is just a tiny example of what the man generated all over the world.
NonP
Legend
I'll defer to you re: Latin America (though I still think Maradona and Pelé would be neck and neck), but the rest of the world is another matter. I can tell you for sure that baseball is easily the most popular sport in Japan, and probably still in South Korea, too (which comes as a surprise to most of us Americans whose "national sport" may not even rank 2nd across the country). And while the Chinese Basketball Association's estimate of 300 million participants is rather debatable - per a 2018 industry report from the country's tech giant Tencent 143 million Chinese people indeed play watch and play the sport regularly while a remainder of 482 million are more casual fans - that's still far higher than the goal of 50 million football participants which China is trying to reach by 2050. Needless to say all three of these countries are economic powerhouses, which combined with the US changes the worldwide equation significantly.
All of which leads to my overall point: sports, even a globally dominant one like football, ultimately yield to pop culture at large which is almost by definition more inclusive. I don't know which MJ you were referring to but if you meant the gloved one your claim of Maradona being bigger than Jackson in Europe and Africa isn't supported by my own experience (mostly secondhand, yes). Among the men possibly, but between both genders? No contest for me. (BTW if you think the current avalanche of tributes is unprecedented you weren't paying enough attention to the explosion of media coverage and public reaction following Jackson's untimely death. To this day I've never seen anything like it, and it's unlikely to be ever duplicated.) And while Rowling herself may not be a household name and I don't care much for her work the pundits probably weren't too far off when they declared her one of the most influential people alive. Mind you I still don't expect her to last longer than the likes of Jackson, the Beatles, Elvis and even Madonna, but then I say that's true for nearly all athletes, yes even for such icons as Maradona, Pelé and the other MJ. The one exception I can think of is Ali, but that's less for his boxing resume than for his justly celebrated decision to take on the world's most powerful government and his eventual vindication by history.
Also I'm quite certain that Messi or Ronaldo lags well behind a Maradona, Pelé or MJ in global fame and impact. Like I said today's media landscape is too fractured for any current athlete to attain the latter's level of cultural monopoly, and while I don't think the perennially predicted death of monoculture will ever come to pass - the wild worldwide popularity of Game of Thrones, for one, should've silenced the naysayers for good - its future iterations will be watered down almost by necessity among the endless parade of alternatives.
Take the highest-grossing films, for example, whose worldwide receipts tell us that Titanic was surpassed at the box office by Avatar which then was recently overtaken by Avengers: Endgame. And we all know numbers don't lie, so case closed, right? Hardly. We know for a fact that the new Avengers movie didn't surpass either of its predecessors when we adjust those numbers for inflation, and even Avatar's ranking becomes suspect when you realize that the movie industry has been raising ticket prices for years to make up for the dwindling attendance which will be further exacerbated in the aftermath of this pandemic as more viewers turn to streaming at home. Besides no one who lived through these movies would tell you either of Titanic's successors made nearly as much splash on the world's popular imagination. The "Endgame" was only the latest cash grab by the Marvel franchise aimed at the admittedly sizable (and lucrative) young-"adult" demographic, while Cameron's much-anticipated follow-up to his mega-blockbuster was a disappointing rehash of Hollywood tropes of recent vintage. By contrast Titanic, whatever its flaws, is a Griffithesque tale of chivalry and grandeur worthy of comparison with Gone with the Wind (the reigning king in adjusted gross) or Griffith's own Broken Blossoms. It's a rare case of artistic merit and commercial success working in tandem, which is why it will endure more than nearly all of its box office rivals.
So that's where we stand today, a world where "viral" stands "important" and much of "influence" is bought and manufactured. Hence our faith in numbers to the point of worship where otherwise intelligent people fail to grasp the cause and nature of worldwide populist backlash against the "elites," and while this parlor game of ours is a decidedly more trivial affair it's still emblematic of the bigger problem at large. But I'm still optimistic, given the tremendous amount of good we've seen in the last few months despite all the bad and ugly.
You are too kind for Jordan because he is just another commercial product /sports figure which is a dime a dozen.
Not a fair comparison because Maradona was much more than that!
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
Yeah, not top 10 but far from,all hype.
stringertom
Bionic Poster
Sorry, a bit overstated by “all” hype; not a mug but not a goat.
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
Yeah, I can understand. When you're comparing somebody to Maradona as a great then they have to be something really amazing. Beckham would fall short.
The other goal was great, indeed, but looking at it carefully I would rate last year's goal of the year by Son for Tottenham to be even better, faster speed, closer defending (they seemed to back away from Maradona), amazing ball control.
stringertom
Bionic Poster
The QF WC stage had bright spotlights, even 34 years ago. It makes the dribble in Mexico the one everyone will remember more vividly. Add in the history of Argentina vs U.K. from the Falklands just a few years before and it is in a whole different realm of worship.
There are a few dribble/goal combos in this Cruyff compilation that match and/or exceed both Maradona and Son but most people don’t remember any outstanding shots from that era. Still, Cruyff has the pivot turn named after him that kids practice to this day. Also, his “impossible goal” after signing with Barca doesn’t get the recognition it deserves...simply incredible back heel deflection from a crazy angle while suspending a couple of feet in the air!
70後
Hall of Fame
I read this before,
www.thehindu.com
According to Lineker :
“When we played Argentina at the 1986 World Cup, nobody else could control the ball because the Azteca Stadium pitch had been re-laid into small chunks and the turf moved under your feet whenever you started running.
“Yet, Maradona was able to dribble from the halfway line and score. Lord knows what he would be capable of today on the modern, bowling, green pitches.”
Blast from the past: Argentina (1986)
According to Lineker :
“When we played Argentina at the 1986 World Cup, nobody else could control the ball because the Azteca Stadium pitch had been re-laid into small chunks and the turf moved under your feet whenever you started running.
“Yet, Maradona was able to dribble from the halfway line and score. Lord knows what he would be capable of today on the modern, bowling, green pitches.”
racquetreligion
Hall of Fame
Beckhamster lmao UK tabloids are re-known for most world
leading propaganda, hype and basic lying to the world as usual.
For Argentina it was sad they lost this wild crazy entertainer but for the elite
parasites it means one less famous celebrity exposing their ongoing crimes.
Maradona most famous effort for me was not a handball but telling his beloved
followers and rest of the world George Bush is the world's worst Serial Killer.
If only Muzzler said the same about his beloved Dr Neil Ferguson.
2020 will go down as the worst year in any sporting calendar and yet we have
another 4 years of this crazy sillyness all due to our immune systems not being
trustworthy for a sniffle of 99.7% survival rate.
Until we are all hyped into changing our dna with the latest jabs we are all
irresponsible killers of otherwise unhealthy grannies.
leading propaganda, hype and basic lying to the world as usual.
For Argentina it was sad they lost this wild crazy entertainer but for the elite
parasites it means one less famous celebrity exposing their ongoing crimes.
Maradona most famous effort for me was not a handball but telling his beloved
followers and rest of the world George Bush is the world's worst Serial Killer.
If only Muzzler said the same about his beloved Dr Neil Ferguson.
2020 will go down as the worst year in any sporting calendar and yet we have
another 4 years of this crazy sillyness all due to our immune systems not being
trustworthy for a sniffle of 99.7% survival rate.
Until we are all hyped into changing our dna with the latest jabs we are all
irresponsible killers of otherwise unhealthy grannies.
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"Worship" is not analysis....Son appears to have much more speed than Maradona in his moves from last year.
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Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
Who’s/Whose Son?
Plays for Tottenham Hotspurs in English premier division.
He put the German team out of business at the last World Cup.
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
He’s 28 years old, and I never heard about him.
Here is a very recent game during the pandemic, Tottenham scores five, Son scores four, all of them with great foot speed and touch.
racquetreligion
Hall of Fame
Lol Son, I think you are confusing foot speed with foot craft of legend
like comparing a common K pop song to a classical masterpiece.
Maybe compare son to any ronaldo, Mbappé, ronaldinho for starters.
Messi for example can only be challenged by a hare or mongoose for foot speed
that guy is just reactive unlike Maradona who created play with ridiculous anticipation
like comparing a common K pop song to a classical masterpiece.
Maybe compare son to any ronaldo, Mbappé, ronaldinho for starters.
Messi for example can only be challenged by a hare or mongoose for foot speed
that guy is just reactive unlike Maradona who created play with ridiculous anticipation
Son's style is not based on heel shooting or trick shots, just blazing acceleration and perfect touch for finishing.
Son's style is now being accepted as the best, he was voted goal of the year for the magnificent RUN above. No, I doubt that the others can match his foot speed.
Nearing the end of his prime at 28 years old and his biggest achievement is...EPL's player of the month.
That RUN...was against the second last team of the league of 20 teams.
1HBHfanatic
Legend
-dude, that's like asking whos better?! britney-spears or celine-dion,, no contest!!
He has been brilliant for some years. He eliminated Germany from the last World Cup in 2018.
He carried Tottenham through to the Champions League final last year.
His skills are in prime estate now, I think that he is younger than Rinaldo who is 35 or Messi who is 33, so he has some years to go.
Can't think of anyone in his age bracket with comparable skills.
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
Brittany Spears when she was young. and celine-dion when she is older. There is no ambiguity here
1HBHfanatic
Legend
-okai, i wont give you too much grief over this one!!
-it could be a perspective thing also!!??!!
-ive been exposed to more south american soccer, (through out my life) so i would consider maradona a diff. class player than beckham!?,
-but he (beckham) is also good, in his own wright!!
The RUN was voted goal of the year for Europe....does that sound like a weak effort?
Still not happy? Try this one.
Last month's goal of the month for Europe. (Yes, that Son fellow is gathering awards for highest quality goals.)
No doubt Son is a very talented player, but...
Until he leads his team to multiple domestic titles, Champion League, and carries his team to win the world cup while at the same time uniting his country giving them hope during its darkest hours, Son's highlight reels will be forgotten by the next new cycle.
racquetreligion
Hall of Fame
LMAO Style accepted as the best, please non MSM evidence but from the mouth of past greats
that it is the most magnificent.
Even for most Football fans the most magnificent runs are not even televised
and often happen locally.
Even Messi has made better runs on his worst days for a decade plus.
Its like a bad joke to even consider him with the likes of Maradona or any player mentioned.
There are so many great players but all time greats still consider Pele, Maradona / Messi
as the greatest ever and for their times. Even Suarez, Batistuta and Zinadine Zidane poop all over Son.
Also one must consider the eras and ball technology which basically only allows rabbit styles
like Messi or hefty pounding short runs like Cr8 or any past Ronaldo snr jnrs.
Imagine Roger playing in the 90s with his style of now and pre 2002
where he was force to stay back for most of his 90 sq inch accumulated Majors.
Roger could have won 25 slams without the new balls and slowed down courts.
Messi in Maradonas days would prob struggle with old hex leather
while Cr8would still be similar as roids or noseblow was not even regulated then.
Yesterdays balls allowed it all but needed to be built to survive the physicality
This Kimchi Kpop will not have even the career of Owen
stringertom
Bionic Poster
All Tottenham offensive players, especially Son, benefit from the well deserved attention from opposing defenders that is directed towards the talented Mr. Kane. Mourinho has whittled down playing time for a lot of the supporting front line players and then gone with those he has trusted to pick up his rather structured system when they do get big minutes. It has paid off with Kane and Son scoring a very rich ratio of 16 of the Spurs 21 goals in 10 EPL contests. Kane has assisted 9 times, many of course to scoring leader (9) Son. A lot of those assists will be shifted towards Alli and Bale when they start getting more PT.
He has already led his team to the Champions League final last year, mostly single-handedly. Haven't seen anyone do that, Ronaldo and Messi had lots of help.
He is having a dominant year in premier league, leads Europe in scoring.
You can't do better than Number One.
Bottom line, that run above was voted goal of the year for Europe, no one is even close to the finishing touch of this guy, he is currently leading Europe in scoring.
Running? Son is about two steps faster than what you will see from the greats of the past, and his acceleration to top speed is almost instantaneous.
You can't get better than No. 1, which is where Son is at the moment.
It's still early for the hype.
Last CL final when Kane was not at his best Son was nowhere to be found.
In Tottenham's run to the Champions League final, Kane missed most of the season with injury, Son led the team to the final almost single-handedly.
This season, Son is getting great passing support from Kane, and this makes for a potent scoring duo which should overcome even the best defences. Look for a League championship from Tottenham, they are currently in first place.
stringertom
Bionic Poster
You must have a resume in to be Son’s new PR guy. Continue your delusion though...it’s quite the laugh to read!
NonP
Legend
If this is your blueprint for your attempted tryst with that other Son (or whatever other Asian chick you're drooling over atm), I can tell you it's failing spectacularly as your judgment in matters of football seems to be about as trustworthy as your musical taste in general.
That's a real laugh, considering some of the puff put here in favour of Maradona, Rinaldo, Messi.....pure mythology.
With nothing to back it up.
You have a real sense of humour, old friend.
Take a look at the hero worship here for other soccer players.
stringertom
Bionic Poster
You missed your calling...not sure if it was headlining at The Comedy Store or The Improv. Keep it going!
Dedans Penthouse
Legend
I guess his grandkids inherit his stash?.....
