J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Time for me to fire up the step stool and video camera!
I can lay down a pretty mean serve sitting on my firm and shapely behind.
J
Difference between 90 mph and 120+ mph serve?
- Thread starter Syfo-Dias
- Start date
Time for me to fire up the step stool and video camera!
I can lay down a pretty mean serve sitting on my firm and shapely behind.
J
CoachingMastery
Professional
Obviously, you hold high esteem for those who dedicate their lives in helping others improve their game.
This last statment of yours is very revealing.
S
Slicendicer
Guest
Hook it up, Jolly. Make sure your feet are not bracing for leverage. Only your behind or sit on the ground... and don't use your core... just the shoulder and arm and wrist. Good luck.
mucat
Hall of Fame
I am saying, it doesn't seem like it is 55% leg. Unless I misunderstood the interpretation of what 55% means and what's the definition of legs. Afterall, they are all motions chain together seamlessly. It is difficult to tell when the involvment of legs end and the beginning of the body, etc. It seems a pitcher can probably pitch higher than 50mph without using legs. It goes the same with tennis serve I suspect.
It is easy to try, serve only using your core and shoulder and see how fast it goes. I can't imagine Federer will serve just 60 with core and shoulder.
WildVolley
Legend
Slicendicer seems to be arguing just for the sake of arguing. It may be difficult to serve without legs, but that doesn't logically mean that legs are responsible for the majority of the power generated on the serve. By that logic, one could say that since it would be hard to serve without hands, the hand is responsible for 99% of the power in the serve.
I'm uncertain how useful it is to break down the contribution to serve power by body part. In any case, CoachingMastery has correctly pointed out that good servers just standing there without leg bend, can still hit around 100mph.
I'm uncertain how useful it is to break down the contribution to serve power by body part. In any case, CoachingMastery has correctly pointed out that good servers just standing there without leg bend, can still hit around 100mph.
Midlife crisis
Hall of Fame
I think any discrepancy results from the imprecise language of the first quote, the primary focus being the word "slightly" which has no definite value.
The 1.4 to 1.5 value has been measured using high speed video in several studies that have been referenced in Technical Tennis and The Physics of Tennis books, and these same high speed video studies were the basis for many of the Sheffield University studies. Because the Sheffield University studies were peer reviewed prior to being published, I think they've met at least some significant academic bar for being scientifically valid.
The Sampras swing speeds you quoted don't say whether it's the tip of the stringbed, and also aren't specific as to the direction of motion. Because Pete put so much spin on his serves, much of the velocity had a sideways component which would not impart forward velocity to the ball.
As a rough calculation of the difference between stringbed and racquet tip speeds, if you use the Babolat convention and measure the swing based on a point 10 cm up from the bottom of the handle, and assume that the contact point is five inches or 13 cm down from the tip of a 69 cm long racquet, then when pivoting solely around the 10 cm point from the bottom of the handle, the stringbed at 46 cm is traveling only 60% the speed of the tip that is at 59 cm distance. In actual reality, there's some significant forward velocity to the entire racquet, and the pivot point is probably the wrist which is below the bottom of the racquet. Both of these will reduce the ratio of tip speed to stringbed speed.
Josherer
Professional
S
Slicendicer
Guest
Sheez... ok... Coachmast said he could serve 30-40 MPH using just his wrist. That is impossible. Then he said he can easily serve + 100 MPH using only his arm... again, impossible.
If you isolate each muscle as best you can and try for yourself, you'll see it is impossible.
I estimated the lower body AND core to contribute 55% of power to serve.
There is no human being who can throw a ball 50 MPH without using the lower body and core... it is impossible.
S
Slicendicer
Guest
"While standing" is using the legs and core for torque and leverage... thus creating a platform to greatly increase racket head speed.
I don't argue just to argue, but I will call BS when necessary.
Your logic is flawed if that is what you believe. The hands, themselves, provide no "power" to the serve, no matter how you break down the service motion.
stormholloway
Legend
The whole percentage thing is counterintuitive. The body acts as a fluid conduit for energy. You do not have body parts individually contributing. They work together.
My problem (or one of them) comes when, instead of letting the energy flow from the legs to the core to the shoulder, I muscle the ball with my shoulder. It's like a mental disorder or chemical imbalance or something.
My problem (or one of them) comes when, instead of letting the energy flow from the legs to the core to the shoulder, I muscle the ball with my shoulder. It's like a mental disorder or chemical imbalance or something.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Hot Sauce
Hall of Fame
My thoughts exactly.
csharpjava
New User
i'm only posting here b/c i can actually serve in the 110's, 120's regularly....
but here's my problem, my shoulder typically hurts like hell yet a lot of the posts on here talk about fore-arm movement, wrist etc....
i think my shoulder goes to **** only after i don't stretch enough.
anyways, just my 2 cents
but here's my problem, my shoulder typically hurts like hell yet a lot of the posts on here talk about fore-arm movement, wrist etc....
i think my shoulder goes to **** only after i don't stretch enough.
anyways, just my 2 cents
I don't think there is any problem hitting a serve at 30-40 mph with just your wrist... 30-40 mph is not very fast (Usain Bolt can only run about 23 mph)... even getting to 100 mph may be doable with just your arm. You need to remember that this is more than just a throwing motion you have the mechanical advantage of the tennis racket. It all comes down to how much racket head speed you can generate from sitting on your behind. I would question if you could get anything in the range of 120 mph though or anything much over 100 mph.
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i'm curious what the physics phd would say...
serve speed is dependent upon racquet head speed, which is primarily related to lever length (ie taller or longer arms favor shorter).
the secondary source of racquet speed is kinetic energy. to maximize this source, it requires: 1) driving the legs, 2) transmitting through the core while applying additional torque, 3) transmitting through the shoulder and arm to the ball.
basically the entire body is a whip, which means that efficient technique is more important than pure strength.
serve speed is dependent upon racquet head speed, which is primarily related to lever length (ie taller or longer arms favor shorter).
the secondary source of racquet speed is kinetic energy. to maximize this source, it requires: 1) driving the legs, 2) transmitting through the core while applying additional torque, 3) transmitting through the shoulder and arm to the ball.
basically the entire body is a whip, which means that efficient technique is more important than pure strength.
They say JamarcusRussel of the Raiders can throw a football 100 yards.
I'll bet, within one year of serving lessons, he can serve easily into the 140's. He's 6'5" and 260lbs., and an athlete of sorts.
But so can NolanRyan, RandyJohnson, and TimLincecum, all with 99mph fastballs.
And RobertoClemente, who was seen throwing a baseball 350' air travel.
I'll bet, within one year of serving lessons, he can serve easily into the 140's. He's 6'5" and 260lbs., and an athlete of sorts.
But so can NolanRyan, RandyJohnson, and TimLincecum, all with 99mph fastballs.
And RobertoClemente, who was seen throwing a baseball 350' air travel.
Its not really "legs" this IMHO. this isn't to say the legs aren't involved but its more about sliding your hips into the court and using your body like a pole vault to add power.
The serve doctor guy goes into great lengths about this in his video and for me anyway its pretty convicing. Just bending your knees and jumping up while you serve does not add power in the right plane..
Anyway if you believe the serve doctor (and I do) its about the using the pole vault type action, the coiling type action, the seesaw action of your arms as well as the additional speed of pronation (what the coach mastery was talking about). If you can put all that together in a coordinated way then bam - more power.
Someone on the forum recommended that video.. pretty cool IMHO. I think even if I don't really end up with a giant serve from it at least I know more about the serving mechanics.. I already have a pretty big serve simply because of my size (at my low level).. But I do want too see if I can learn to hit it right..
As far natural athletes who would make great servers - the serve doctor is a believer in pitchers as he compared the serve to an upward pitch. This is actually different then just a throw as a pitcher will use alot more of their body to add power to a pitch whereas a shortstop might on occasion just 'arm' it..
Pete
The serve doctor guy goes into great lengths about this in his video and for me anyway its pretty convicing. Just bending your knees and jumping up while you serve does not add power in the right plane..
Anyway if you believe the serve doctor (and I do) its about the using the pole vault type action, the coiling type action, the seesaw action of your arms as well as the additional speed of pronation (what the coach mastery was talking about). If you can put all that together in a coordinated way then bam - more power.
Someone on the forum recommended that video.. pretty cool IMHO. I think even if I don't really end up with a giant serve from it at least I know more about the serving mechanics.. I already have a pretty big serve simply because of my size (at my low level).. But I do want too see if I can learn to hit it right..
As far natural athletes who would make great servers - the serve doctor is a believer in pitchers as he compared the serve to an upward pitch. This is actually different then just a throw as a pitcher will use alot more of their body to add power to a pitch whereas a shortstop might on occasion just 'arm' it..
Pete
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onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
Agreed. If some of these genetic freaks like Randy Johnson had played
tennis instead of baseball, they'd have ridiculous serves with crazy amounts
of spin. Randy Johnson's serve would probably be way beyond anything
currently on the pro tour.
^^^Yeah cept Randy Johnson can't move. He would be just like that tall 6'10" guy but slower. Its like the long drive contest in golf.
The longest drivers aren't the top guys on tour - because they don't have the rest of the golf game. There are probably a few rec guy that can bring some huge serves especially if they came from a baseball pitching or football QB backaround.. OTOH I seriously think Andy Roddick could have been a MLB pitcher..
Pete
The longest drivers aren't the top guys on tour - because they don't have the rest of the golf game. There are probably a few rec guy that can bring some huge serves especially if they came from a baseball pitching or football QB backaround.. OTOH I seriously think Andy Roddick could have been a MLB pitcher..
Pete
onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
I think Roddick could probably throw a baseball pretty hard also.
Riddick could serve at night without lights.
How about Lebron. His serve would be pretty ridiculous. I've seen him
casually toss a basketball the length of the court with very little effort.
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yemenmocha
Professional
Underappreciated point in the entire thread.
Taller people also have much broader shoulders and the whole "shoulder over shoulder" aspect of shoulders rotating into it is much bigger. Very different amount of leverage that is produced as well, if that's the right word.
Just a few weeks ago I was watching a side court with Phillipousis giving a few serve tips to Arias and I couldn't believe the difference in their differing shoulder widths and armspans as he was demonstrating this "shoulder over shoulder" aspect of his serve.
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Agreed but a lot of taller players do not know how to take advantage of their physical abilities... I know I for one... can serve a lot harder and more consistant at 5'-7 and 150ish than people much taller and weigh much more than I.
But do you think your serve has the potential to keep you in the 5.5 thru 7.0 levels?
I know groundies are great and all that baseline basher jazz, but in the long run, you do need some service speed and placement.
Chang was 5'7" and won some tourneys. But I suspect his 125 mph serves were mostly backed up by superior speed, change of direction, and eyesight.
You watch Karlovic play, and if you had his height with your speed, you'd beat him!
I know groundies are great and all that baseline basher jazz, but in the long run, you do need some service speed and placement.
Chang was 5'7" and won some tourneys. But I suspect his 125 mph serves were mostly backed up by superior speed, change of direction, and eyesight.
You watch Karlovic play, and if you had his height with your speed, you'd beat him!
mucat
Hall of Fame
I agree with yemenmocha.
It is all about leverage. If everything else is equal between 2 players, the taller player will have the faster serve.
So for shorter players (me included), it is better not to trace speed record. A quality serve (pace+spin) is more important than a faster (pure pace) serve.
It is all about leverage. If everything else is equal between 2 players, the taller player will have the faster serve.
So for shorter players (me included), it is better not to trace speed record. A quality serve (pace+spin) is more important than a faster (pure pace) serve.
Why do you keep comparing our games to those of the pro's... Chang's serve was no where near the 125 range at the time. Those were different days... and tennis was not won on the serve alone.
If you read what I wrote... I said that the taller player has the physical advantages whether or not he/she can use them is something else.
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Less than 2 years after he won the French, he was timed repeatedly over 120, with a top around 127.
He didn't serve hard when he won the French, but looking for more weapons, and having grown stronger, with help from workouts, and the longer racket, he served well into the mid 120's later in his career. Still couldn't get it in consistently, he was torn between serving fast and getting a faster moving return compared to serving slower with placement and allowing his footspeed to rule the roost.
Don't be so defensive. I truly believe a Ferrer in Karlovics height would be unbeatable. Unfortunately, that doesn't exist in tennis for more than a few years ... ie, the Phillipousis's, Safins, and Kraicheks.....
He didn't serve hard when he won the French, but looking for more weapons, and having grown stronger, with help from workouts, and the longer racket, he served well into the mid 120's later in his career. Still couldn't get it in consistently, he was torn between serving fast and getting a faster moving return compared to serving slower with placement and allowing his footspeed to rule the roost.
Don't be so defensive. I truly believe a Ferrer in Karlovics height would be unbeatable. Unfortunately, that doesn't exist in tennis for more than a few years ... ie, the Phillipousis's, Safins, and Kraicheks.....
Henin managed some pretty big serves as well - and she is smaller then Chang. Flexibility is also god given (along with height) and can play into serve pace.
Pedro Martinez was a pretty small guy who could in his prime hit the upper 90's with his fast ball. Its not all about height. Height advantage really isn't in the power but in the angles it allows.
Pete
Pedro Martinez was a pretty small guy who could in his prime hit the upper 90's with his fast ball. Its not all about height. Height advantage really isn't in the power but in the angles it allows.
Pete
s_andrean
Semi-Pro
I've had my serve recorded at around 120mph, give or take, and I don't really use my legs, just racquethead speeed... but I do suffer from back problems because of it.
Here's a fairly bad video of it..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOyJx8-EWQ0
The second half is a bit clearer
Here's a fairly bad video of it..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOyJx8-EWQ0
The second half is a bit clearer
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yemenmocha
Professional
Yes and this same sort of discussion comes up on basketball forums, usually with teenage kids who don't understand the importance of being tall. Sure, maybe with amazing training of the legs & athleticism a short guy can dunk the ball, but if you're not tall it's going to be A LOT harder.
Like others said, placement & spin is probably more important for serving. And there's nothing wrong with maximizing one's serve abilities, but some people should know that the big MPH serves are probably not in the cards for them. There needs to be a lot of re-adjustment of expectations out there.
chunlimeyers
Rookie
You all got it right, yet, don't think you understand the REAL power in a "power serve"... And, it is.. "ABS".. yes, core strength is the KEY to a powerful serve. Just try it yourself. Go serve without contracting your abs and serratus muscles, and you will have a serve with minimal arm power. Big servers are very strong, explosive athletes. I think if people could serve like me, their would be next to no obesity in america! The legs play a part in, what i call, "getting my lean on". Getting a lean puts full body weight into the shot, and also, i believe helps get my POSTURE as tall as possible to help incorporate my core strength to its max. I like to add that you guys who cant serve big are all "worthless and weak!".. haha But, in reality, you are all worth much as accountants and lawyers, et, et, but without explosive ab power, will never be a powerfull server. I also believe that height just helps give more angles available to the server.
How can u train to be a better server? First off, stop being an "arm hitter", and learn with lessons to use your core for your groundstrokes. Then, serving with core strength will come easier for you. I used to use a pulley system and would train my core this way. However, I have a good proportion of quick twitch muscles. So, those that are the endurance type athlete could develop what little quick twitch fibres they have, but, it would only go so far. I knew a guy from college who was a high jumper, who showed me that he could jump 2 feet off the ground by only pumping his arms and using his core!(his grandparents were olympic sprinters or runners of some sort) This guy was my height (6' 2"), caucasion(as I am), and could dunk a basketball with his ELBOWS to the RIM! Wheras i can't dunk a doaghnut! I realized that he developed the core muscles that explode up, and i have developed the core muscles to TWIST, through years and years of "core training" on and off court(mostly on court). So, yeah dudes the thing that you didn't want to hear, I am telling you. You have to train, train explosively, and, if you are not genetically gifted in these areas, still may not get that ellusive "big serve". Good luck.
How can u train to be a better server? First off, stop being an "arm hitter", and learn with lessons to use your core for your groundstrokes. Then, serving with core strength will come easier for you. I used to use a pulley system and would train my core this way. However, I have a good proportion of quick twitch muscles. So, those that are the endurance type athlete could develop what little quick twitch fibres they have, but, it would only go so far. I knew a guy from college who was a high jumper, who showed me that he could jump 2 feet off the ground by only pumping his arms and using his core!(his grandparents were olympic sprinters or runners of some sort) This guy was my height (6' 2"), caucasion(as I am), and could dunk a basketball with his ELBOWS to the RIM! Wheras i can't dunk a doaghnut! I realized that he developed the core muscles that explode up, and i have developed the core muscles to TWIST, through years and years of "core training" on and off court(mostly on court). So, yeah dudes the thing that you didn't want to hear, I am telling you. You have to train, train explosively, and, if you are not genetically gifted in these areas, still may not get that ellusive "big serve". Good luck.
Nope I don't want to hear it because I hate doing it... but it is what I am doing today... along with shoulders, bi and tri. And later today... yoga...
Well if we are talking hoops - its not height that's important its standing reach which is only related to height. Some people have dramatically longer arms then others. So a short guy can actually play 'taller' then a taller guy.
Again not sure if the serve is THAT height related. Most pitchers are tall - but they are not seven foot giants. A serve is like an upward pitch.
mucat
Hall of Fame
It is height related, because longer arms related to taller body. You can have longer than average arms compare to others of the same height but it will never be longer than the legs. And this hasn't even consider the higher the contact point, the bigger the service area.
yemenmocha
Professional
How about the relief pitchers with 100+ mph fast balls?
not to be a pain guys, but i think this will make everyone's lives simpler when posting youtube videos...
http://youtubetime.com/
http://youtubetime.com/
Mick
Legend
i watched the 1981 us open final between martina navratilova and tracy austin the other night.
according to pat summerall (the speed gun's readings) :
tracy austin's serving speed was about 70 mph.
martina navratilova's serving speed was about 90 mph.
This is with the 65 sq-in wooden racquets from the 80s.
I used to play with a friend who was an Open player... who's average serve was clocked in the mid 120's (not his fastest, he just hit his regular serves to see what he clocked out at). If he hit the serve within a few inches of the corner and I was not moving the ball would be past me. I had another friend who I played with more often who had a bigger serve... and I remember one time he hit one so hard it hit 6 feet up on the fence behind me before I acknowledged it was in (I never moved). Sometime shortly after that I came to realize that returning serve had become less of a see the ball, turn my shoulders, position my feet and hit my return, as it was an instinctive reflex to a ballistic missle being sent in my general direction. I remember thinking to myself if I thought about how I was going to return the ball it would be past me. For me it became knowing what I was going to do with the ball before the serve... and letting my instincts, reflexes and years of playing take over. Not unlike an out of body experience, you know you returned that serve winner... but no idea how you really did it.
Tracy Austin used her serve to start a point... the strength of her game was after the point was in play, not unlike Chris Evert.
I think you would find that the men hit there serves significantly faster... probably on average in the range of 105-115, with serving specialists up around 140 (Colin Dibley).
StanSmith always in the low 130's.
DickStockton in the high 120's.
RaulRameriz in the low 120's.
KevinCurran in the mid to higher 130's.
Dibley was unreal.
1st Amateur, a B or 4.5 player, was 129.6 AVERAGE for 4 in out of 7 serves.
1978 Fast Serve contest at the GoldenGateway Tennis Facility in SanFrancisco.
DickStockton in the high 120's.
RaulRameriz in the low 120's.
KevinCurran in the mid to higher 130's.
Dibley was unreal.
1st Amateur, a B or 4.5 player, was 129.6 AVERAGE for 4 in out of 7 serves.
1978 Fast Serve contest at the GoldenGateway Tennis Facility in SanFrancisco.
Bungalo Bill
G.O.A.T.
That is a good observation. I haven't thought of it that way. Yes, the legs and how a player uses them is important. Thrusting from the thigh muscles while springing from the toes are good things to do. However, the timing of these things happening is critical or you short circuit power.
The rotation of the body as if it is in a cylinder, the use of the non-dominant arm and relaxation play a contributing role in power for the serve.
Some people can simply crack the whip faster than others.
But as indicated above, form, technique, etc.. are all contributors to power.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Radar read a good deal lower back then. I have clocked in the low 120s with a cheap crap wooden racquet I bought for $3 at the thrift store.
J
Jolly.
EXACTLY!
And you would have been clocked around low 130's had you a NEW wooden racket with new strings.
Even I could serve lower 120's with brand new first string job WilsonProStaffs, strung with VS 16 gauge at 62 lbs.
Imagine how much slower the racket propells the ball after sitting around for 35 years!
EXACTLY!
And you would have been clocked around low 130's had you a NEW wooden racket with new strings.
Even I could serve lower 120's with brand new first string job WilsonProStaffs, strung with VS 16 gauge at 62 lbs.
Imagine how much slower the racket propells the ball after sitting around for 35 years!
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
^^^ Dunno about that, I can only muster a bit over 125 with my normal racquet. Hopefully break 130's in 2010. I only use the radar like twice a year, I think the fastest I have clocked this year was 127mph. My serve keeps getting better, so I am hopeful.
J
J
fruitytennis1
Professional
Umm i can barely top the first and the second appears in my dreams...
Mick
Legend
haha. i have never measured my serving speeds but i hope that my first serve is faster than 100 km/hr (with today's racquet)
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