Difference of 4.5 and a Pro (video)

onehandbh

Legend
Check out this current live-streaming of the Liga Open draw in this tournament that's happening right now in Bali.

The Open draw is very interesting because it features a wide variety of players, from rec 4.0-ish players, to top-ranked juniors, to former college players to former ATP #39 ranked pro. Several players have won at least 1 match in an itf futures main draw in the past.

Many of the matches are live-streamed on their facebook channel and recorded so you can view them afterwards.

This guy beat TW's tonlars in the past tournament.
 
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From my experience in USTA NorCal:

5.0 - can win non-money Opens (UTR 9-11)
5.5 - can win/go deep in money Opens (UTR 12)
6.0 - Top 125 in singles for D1 (UTR 13)
6.5 - Futures/Challengers level (UTR 14)
7.0 - ATP (UTR 15+)

I’m UTR 9.65 and I consider myself a weak to average 5.0 based on my USTA League record. I have won a non-money Men’s Open but get destroyed at money tourneys in NorCal.

I didn’t play D1 tennis though or any college tennis.
Your ‘transparent’ NTRP dynamic rating (average of TR and TLS) is currently about 4.59, which is in agreement with your weak-to-average 5.0 assessment.
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
Can Travjam just play ttps and deliver another couple bagels like nyta to shut this guy up? And why is sureshs his best friend? Fellow hack group love?
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
The video posted above is the definition of strong 4.0 vs strong 4.5. The 4.0 could play and be on the lower end of a 4.5 "league" as well as the 4.5 could be on the lower end of a 5.0 league.

Good serves and returns by both guys. "Style" is unconventional but the shots have pace and find the targets. Excellent game @travlerajm overall. @Shroud can you please teach me OHBH ROS?
Hey here is a vid that shows it pretty well.


Some are open stance and its really more of a block.
 

FedGR

Semi-Pro
Hey here is a vid that shows it pretty well.


Some are open stance and its really more of a block.
Thank you so much for the video! I also watched a couple vids about Almagro returning and even though I get the idea, I really have big trouble understanding racket face and path. I guess I need a ball machine!
 

Shroud

G.O.A.T.
Thank you so much for the video! I also watched a couple vids about Almagro returning and even though I get the idea, I really have big trouble understanding racket face and path. I guess I need a ball machine!
Sure man. Its basically a block. That grip has the face pretty closed and well if you slow the vid down I bet you can get it...

Tip is that the fh and bh hit the ball on the SAME SIDE OF THE STRINGBED.
 

undecided

Rookie
@TimeToPlaySets Rob is a strong 4.5/5.0 and his coach is Kiryl Hartbatsiuk had a career high around 700 in the world. There is a VERY distinct difference in their strokes, control and power and it is very easy to see. Here are some examples in this practice video. Starts out with both warming up. Notice though how controlled the coach is.

  • Jump to 3:13 and Rob starts to increase his pace. The coach is still completely controlled and precise. I LOVE his coaching style, btw.
  • Now, jump to 4:15 and watch as Kiryl starts hitting. COMPLETELY different sound and pace. That is a simple example of the level difference between pro and a 4.5. The coach goes right back to hitting at pace with Rob for a more practice.
  • You can watch throughout the rest and it is easy to see when the coach uses a full stroke. But more about how controlled and precise he is throughout. Watch the backhands, 1h and 2h when he unloads during point play. Crazy power and pop.
So Rob and Kiryl played a 5.0+ USTA match last year. Coach won 6/1 6/0. I would love to have seen it.

4.5 is a solid and consistent player, but not even close to an ATP 1000 player. Not even on par with top D1. Last time Caroline Dohlehide was here they practiced on the next court over from us. We got to watch and sit with some of players to talk. But these top 500 WTA players would take 4.5's down in failry short order too. There would be some good points, but the results would be the same.

I've had some opportunities to hit with WTA/ATP/Juniors/College players. When they hit....really hit at their pace, it is insanely different from almost all the rec players.
I've played against 5.0 singles players. I've also played a doubles match and one of the players was ex top 700 ATP player. The pace of shot for the ex ATP is so much faster than the 5.0 it's not comparable at all. I was able to hang with the 5.0. The ATP player's balls were too fast for me to even complete my swing.
 

undecided

Rookie
I like Trav. He is one of the few guys here who gets tennis reality.

But, a guy in his mid 40's
with totally untrained strokes
is never a 5.0

Both FH and BH and bunty 3.0 strokes.
Footwork and movement is clumsy
He is spraying balls out.

Everything about this video screams 3.0 tennis
Maybe decades of match play gives smart shot selection to put him at 3.5

Let's see how many people think this is 5.0 tennis.
If you think this is 5.0 tennis, please reply "Yes, this is 5.0 tennis"


Which one is Trav? I did not see any extended rallies. Too many errors.
 

ChaelAZ

Legend
I've played against 5.0 singles players. I've also played a doubles match and one of the players was ex top 700 ATP player. The pace of shot for the ex ATP is so much faster than the 5.0 it's not comparable at all. I was able to hang with the 5.0. The ATP player's balls were too fast for me to even complete my swing.
This was a nice opportunity to hit with a couple of the local pros for a project while I was coming back from injuries around 2017. Gustavo (who I was hitting with) was in the 800's for dubs and somewhere in 1000's for singles. Devin is still a hitting partner on tour for the WTA. Both are 5.0+ league players still I believe, and neither have played ATP/ITF since 2014. Anyway, I could hang in rallies and such, but what really makes the difference to me is, while I was struggling to keep up with their rally ball pace, they were simply grooinvg along without pressure. Not on the video, we did get to hit some of those bigger (their pace) shots and it was well beyond what I was handling. But the weight and action on the ball is ridiculous, and that was just at my pace to keep me in the rallies. lol.

You can tell by the end my fitness got the best of me. It was a good hit for me though to have kept up as well as I did.
And great guys BTW.


EDIT TO ADD: Here is Gus playing in a match...well beyond my level.



Fun one with Devin last year at the USO hitting with Sandgren

 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
This was a nice opportunity to hit with a couple of the local pros for a project while I was coming back from injuries around 2017. Gustavo (who I was hitting with) was in the 800's for dubs and somewhere in 1000's for singles. Devin is still a hitting partner on tour for the WTA. Both are 5.0+ league players still I believe, and neither have played ATP/ITF since 2014. Anyway, I could hang in rallies and such, but what really makes the difference to me is, while I was struggling to keep up with their rally ball pace, they were simply grooinvg along without pressure. Not on the video, we did get to hit some of those bigger (their pace) shots and it was well beyond what I was handling. But the weight and action on the ball is ridiculous, and that was just at my pace to keep me in the rallies. lol.

You can tell by the end my fitness got the best of me. It was a good hit for me though to have kept up as well as I did.
And great guys BTW.


EDIT TO ADD: Here is Gus playing in a match...well beyond my level.



Fun one with Devin last year at the USO hitting with Sandgren

But wait! I thought 4.5s are basically like ATP pros??? You’re saying that’s not the case. I don’t know who to believe!
 

ChaelAZ

Legend
More interesting, here are two national u16 girls hitting with a well known 5.0. Tell me if they hit the same (hint, pink girl CRUSHES balls).



I realize TTPS was talking about visually the form between the two, but I think for any rec players who has been playing a few years, you can definitely tell the stronger player watching. Doesn't alway dictacte the intangilbes of the match outcome though.
 
Yes, but iRacer is a pusher 5.0
I know 3.0 players who hit harder than him.
He is my inspiration to hitting more softly, and winning more matches.
I bet iRacer will beat these bashers!

But, when I say 5.0, I am talking former D1 players.
iRacer looks nothing like a D1 player. Not even close.

The girls go for winners during co-op rally. LOVE it.

Why cooperative rallying is a waste of time, generally
 
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mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
More interesting, here are two national u16 girls hitting with a well known 5.0. Tell me if they hit the same (hint, pink girl CRUSHES balls).



I realize TTPS was talking about visually the form between the two, but I think for any rec players who has been playing a few years, you can definitely tell the stronger player watching. Doesn't alway dictacte the intangilbes of the match outcome though.
I have been brainwashed by ttps. I can’t tell them apart. They all have pro strokes! ;)
 

Dartagnan64

Legend
More interesting, here are two national u16 girls hitting with a well known 5.0. Tell me if they hit the same (hint, pink girl CRUSHES balls).



I realize TTPS was talking about visually the form between the two, but I think for any rec players who has been playing a few years, you can definitely tell the stronger player watching. Doesn't alway dictacte the intangilbes of the match outcome though.
Pink girl can't be good because "WTA FH".
 
As extreme as some of TTPS opinions are, I agree that Andrew (iracer3) doesn't look like a 5.0, that's not based off of this video, but based off of others on his channel, the 5.0 matches, then again, the whole groups of doubles players don't look 5.0 to me on those. I think this is a great example of where some of the disagreements on level happen on these message boards, although TTPS disagreements are often so extreme this particular case doesn't illustrate the usual reason why his opinions are extreme.

So, what it does illustrate is perhaps the reason people argue over 4.0-4.5 etc. when watching a video, is something I discussed the other day with my fellow Dallas players, this was based on a handful of opinions from out of state players who moved to Dallas or our own observations of what out of state players claimed their level was or actually computer rated was. We think players from California and Florida and other metro areas of Texas that move to Dallas are very accurately rated, but almost everyone else from other states are rated .5 higher than the level they would be competitive in, when playing in Dallas and some of the out of state players agree once they get into the scene here. This would exclude outlier tennis cities like Atlanta.

Watching some of the videos on that channel and the matches being from a middle state, it's a little more evidence that this might be a real thing.
 

ptuanminh

Professional
As extreme as some of TTPS opinions are, I agree that Andrew (iracer3) doesn't look like a 5.0, that's not based off of this video, but based off of others on his channel, the 5.0 matches, then again, the whole groups of doubles players don't look 5.0 to me on those. I think this is a great example of where some of the disagreements on level happen on these message boards, although TTPS disagreements are often so extreme this particular case doesn't illustrate the usual reason why his opinions are extreme.

So, what it does illustrate is perhaps the reason people argue over 4.0-4.5 etc. when watching a video, is something I discussed the other day with my fellow Dallas players, this was based on a handful of opinions from out of state players who moved to Dallas or our own observations of what out of state players claimed their level was or actually computer rated was. We think players from California and Florida and other metro areas of Texas that move to Dallas are very accurately rated, but almost everyone else from other states are rated .5 higher than the level they would be competitive in, when playing in Dallas and some of the out of state players agree once they get into the scene here. This would exclude outlier tennis cities like Atlanta.

Watching some of the videos on that channel and the matches being from a middle state, it's a little more evidence that this might be a real thing.
How about the video is -.5 rating from the truth? The guy plays 5.0 USTA then he is a legit 5.0.
 
Well, I certainly can't argue that a 5.0 is a number "5.0", but I am assuming you disagree with the possibility that Cali-Tex-Florida 5.0 or other levels of USTA are en mass more competitive than.....well let's take an extreme, than Idaho 5.0 or Montana 5.0 and that might be behind some of the discussions on the boards that come up where people say "they're 4.0" and the others say "looks like 4.5 to me". Could there be a geographical bias?
 

ptuanminh

Professional
Well, I certainly can't argue that a 5.0 is a number "5.0", but I am assuming you disagree with the possibility that Cali-Tex-Florida 5.0 or other levels of USTA are en mass more competitive than.....well let's take an extreme, than Idaho 5.0 or Montana 5.0 and that might be behind some of the discussions on the boards that come up where people say "they're 4.0" and the others say "looks like 4.5 to me". Could there be a geographical bias?
I have played USTA in places where tennis is popular (north carolina, virginia) and places where tennis is not so popular (upstate NY i.e). I haven't played Cali, Tex, or Fl, but my observation is 4.0s are not that much different from one place to another. Maybe, the average 4.0 in Cali is a 4.5 in Idaho, maybe not. I don't know. I need some statistics to prove it though. But when i watch this video, 4.0 nationals Southern Cali, these guys look every bit 4.0 to me, very high level 4.0 though.
A big problem in places like Idaho or Montana or my area is lacking of players. There are not enough players interested that we have to put 3.5s on the line. Even then, 2 years in a row, my team had to give up the spot for Regionals because we don't have enough players.
 

Max G.

Legend
If some sections ratings were inflated or deflated compared to others, we'd see that at nationals - people from one area would be uncompetitive. Seriously, if there's a .5 rating gap between two sections, then guys from one of them would be consistently blown out, like, 0 and 1.

Schemke's probably done analysis on this... is that the case?
 

MaxTennis

New User
As extreme as some of TTPS opinions are, I agree that Andrew (iracer3) doesn't look like a 5.0, that's not based off of this video, but based off of others on his channel, the 5.0 matches, then again, the whole groups of doubles players don't look 5.0 to me on those. I think this is a great example of where some of the disagreements on level happen on these message boards, although TTPS disagreements are often so extreme this particular case doesn't illustrate the usual reason why his opinions are extreme.

So, what it does illustrate is perhaps the reason people argue over 4.0-4.5 etc. when watching a video, is something I discussed the other day with my fellow Dallas players, this was based on a handful of opinions from out of state players who moved to Dallas or our own observations of what out of state players claimed their level was or actually computer rated was. We think players from California and Florida and other metro areas of Texas that move to Dallas are very accurately rated, but almost everyone else from other states are rated .5 higher than the level they would be competitive in, when playing in Dallas and some of the out of state players agree once they get into the scene here. This would exclude outlier tennis cities like Atlanta.

Watching some of the videos on that channel and the matches being from a middle state, it's a little more evidence that this might be a real thing.
I'm curious if Tim Xue passes your "visual" test for 5.0. He plays out of NorCal and has a very good record at 4.5 and I think he will get bumped.

 
That is what I think of when I say 4.5
Guys hitting hard off both wings.
These are the types of 4.5 that make TravelJam look like a 3.0
If these guys rallied with an ATP pro, your mother would not be able to tell who is the pro.
 

ChaelAZ

Legend
I have played USTA in places where tennis is popular (north carolina, virginia) and places where tennis is not so popular (upstate NY i.e). I haven't played Cali, Tex, or Fl, but my observation is 4.0s are not that much different from one place to another. Maybe, the average 4.0 in Cali is a 4.5 in Idaho, maybe not. I don't know. I need some statistics to prove it though. But when i watch this video, 4.0 nationals Southern Cali, these guys look every bit 4.0 to me, very high level 4.0 though.
For sure Minh. Anyone that actually plays and meets players from various areas knows there can be +/- .5 difference between sections. I have played a 4.5 from a small section of Montana, and 3.5's from California or Texas that would be solid 4.0 in AZ. On video, depending on a lot of things, none of them would look better than what TTPS calls a pusher, but that is far from the truth. The idea of "hard hitting" make a stronger player is trumped by those with variety and a consistent 70-80% ball that is placed well backed with excellent footowkr and movement. That is the crux of Andrew's game, and he plays it well. The idea a "hard hitting" 4.5 can keep pace with a pro and no one can tell the difference is a real stretch. A pro would be stepped down quite a bit to keep a 4.5 in the rallies, as demonstrated in Robs video earlier. And even when I was hitting with Gus, when they helped feed me decent balls I was at least keeping that pace, but when things got up to their level of pace I was late, out of position, and pressured every shot.

Interesting for me, the guys I know that at actually rated 4.5 and up rarely if ever call anyone out on level, knowing full well some matches are just ugly at every level. It is kinda like what I used to say...sometimes I play like a 3.5 and sometimes I play like a 4.5, so really that averages right out to the 4.0 I play most the time. Everyone has that range I think - playing lights out tennis or something that doesn't even look like tennis.

Tim, Andrew, and other 4.5 and 5.0 players who share videos often play with college players, and you can watch them lose pretty handily most the time. Devin video above playing against Tennys is another example. Pros are certainly at a different level. A mother having a kid in tennis would even be able to tell, probably more than a newbie rec player.
 

ptuanminh

Professional
For sure Minh. Anyone that actually plays and meets players from various areas knows there can be +/- .5 difference between sections. I have played a 4.5 from a small section of Montana, and 3.5's from California or Texas that would be solid 4.0 in AZ. On video, depending on a lot of things, none of them would look better than what TTPS calls a pusher, but that is far from the truth. The idea of "hard hitting" make a stronger player is trumped by those with variety and a consistent 70-80% ball that is placed well backed with excellent footowkr and movement. That is the crux of Andrew's game, and he plays it well. The idea a "hard hitting" 4.5 can keep pace with a pro and no one can tell the difference is a real stretch. A pro would be stepped down quite a bit to keep a 4.5 in the rallies, as demonstrated in Robs video earlier. And even when I was hitting with Gus, when they helped feed me decent balls I was at least keeping that pace, but when things got up to their level of pace I was late, out of position, and pressured every shot.

Interesting for me, the guys I know that at actually rated 4.5 and up rarely if ever call anyone out on level, knowing full well some matches are just ugly at every level. It is kinda like what I used to say...sometimes I play like a 3.5 and sometimes I play like a 4.5, so really that averages right out to the 4.0 I play most the time. Everyone has that range I think - playing lights out tennis or something that doesn't even look like tennis.

Tim, Andrew, and other 4.5 and 5.0 players who share videos often play with college players, and you can watch them lose pretty handily most the time. Devin video above playing against Tennys is another example. Pros are certainly at a different level. A mother having a kid in tennis would even be able to tell, probably more than a newbie rec player.
I already know whatever TTPS posts is dumb, closed minded, and unfiltered. I have better conversations with my knees than reading his stupid claims. :-D :-D :-D
I am a statistics person so, any statement like, a 4.0 in Cali could be a 4.5 in NY, i.e, needs some good data evidence to support.
 

ChaelAZ

Legend
I am a statistics person so, any statement like, a 4.0 in Cali could be a 4.5 in NY, i.e, needs some good data evidence to support.
Yeah, much of it is anecdotal, but that seems to be the standard conversation across the states. Guys that play in smaller sections will even mention that in a larger pool of level players that might be down a level, but I don't think pure statistics would flesh that out unless they followed a player competing in various sections. So have them play leauges in California or Texas to start and have a baseline ranking. Then have them play various other sections and see how they fair against the competition. Would be interesting for sure.

But really, the .5 rating stuff is moot in the gist of the thread. The 4.5 to pro though...I think everyone knows it is night and day. Well, almost everyone.
 

ChaelAZ

Legend
These guys are 4.5 at best, with all the double faults, shanks and duffs. They are hitting too hard, so maybe 3.5 spazz? Thoughts?



EDIT: Just watched more. Fed's a totes pusher and hits about the same as Andrew.
 

ptuanminh

Professional
Yeah, much of it is anecdotal, but that seems to be the standard conversation across the states. Guys that play in smaller sections will even mention that in a larger pool of level players that might be down a level, but I don't think pure statistics would flesh that out unless they followed a player competing in various sections. So have them play leauges in California or Texas to start and have a baseline ranking. Then have them play various other sections and see how they fair against the competition. Would be interesting for sure.
The 4.5 looks like pro stuff, its just dumb.
One way to confirm this anecdote is follow USTA records of those players that move from "weak" area to "strong" area and see how they do. My guess is they won't be beating everyone but they will fit in just fine.
Good players (or players that want to be good and be smart about it), no matter where they are, will find ways to become good, and they can be competitive anywhere.
 

FedGR

Semi-Pro
Sure man. Its basically a block. That grip has the face pretty closed and well if you slow the vid down I bet you can get it...

Tip is that the fh and bh hit the ball on the SAME SIDE OF THE STRINGBED.
Easier said than done! :-D:-D
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Of course it depends on the strength of the D1 program, but the guys at our local school would all by definition be 6.0, and many successfully compete at the futures or challenger level so 6.5? The ratings system breaks down quickly above 5.5.....maybe that’s where UTR will eventually be useful?
NTRP is definitely way less useful than UTR for higher levels. NTRP is designed to group players by approximate skill level for play in USTA leagues and tournaments. It breaks down as a system outside of that limited usage. UTR is much more meaningful for non-USTA league/NTRP tournament players.
 
I already know whatever TTPS posts is dumb, closed minded, and unfiltered. I have better conversations with my knees than reading his stupid claims. :-D :-D :-D
I am a statistics person so, any statement like, a 4.0 in Cali could be a 4.5 in NY, i.e, needs some good data evidence to support.
I wish I could help you with the statistics, I only know of about 13 players who moved to Dallas from New York, Connecticut, Ohio, Colorado, Washington state, Nevada, Arizona, and I think South Dakota etc. who all came to the same conclusion that the level in Dallas was shifted up and voluntarily brought it up in conversations about teams they were joining here or looking to join. I very much am assuming California is the same as Dallas because the huge amount of Californians, yes, there are thousands that move here every month don't say that and are at level. I am really assuming Florida is the same with no evidence whatsoever, so forgive that pretty flimsy assumption, all I have is hearsay from local teaching pros in Dallas that say Florida is equal. Not to mention the crazy sandbagging in Los Angeles and NoCal, Houston, and Dallas, sometimes Austin.

Anyway, thanks for indulging my hot air, I just wanted to present the theory that the discrepancy in commenting (excluding TTPS) on levels here and how surprising the differing opinions are, might be due to this geography difference and two people might be judging correctly even though concluding different levels because their local players are different.
 

tennis347

Rookie
That is what I think of when I say 4.5
Guys hitting hard off both wings.
These are the types of 4.5 that make TravelJam look like a 3.0
If these guys rallied with an ATP pro, your mother would not be able to tell who is the pro.
Why don’t you post a video so all fellow TW members can critique and rate your game??? I see a lot of talk about other players but nothing from you to back it up.
 
LOLOLOLO, I see that Putmin (ignored) post quoted by FYB
I ignored that guy years ago, yet he is STILL my biggest fan.

He dislikes my posts? Yet he reads every single one of them, like a rabid stalker!!!!

Like a drug addict who can't click ignore.
Can't stop reading all my posts, he is addicted to TTPS.
Can't do it. Must read TTPS.

Putminh! Man, I forgot all the nutjobs I put on ignore last year.

Just admit I am the best poster here, and you are jealous
Set up alerts and follow TTPS so you get real time updates on your phone while driving, LMAO !!!
 

Johnr

Rookie
LOLOLOLO, I see that Putmin (ignored) post quoted by FYB
I ignored that guy years ago, yet he is STILL my biggest fan.

He dislikes my posts? Yet he reads every single one of them, like a rabid stalker!!!!

Like a drug addict who can't click ignore.
Can't stop reading all my posts, he is addicted to TTPS.
Can't do it. Must read TTPS.

Just admit I am the best poster here, and you are jealous
Set up alerts and follow TTPS so you get real time updates on your phone while driving, LMAO !!!
Put up or shut up, post video of you playing.
 
Why don’t you post a video so all fellow TW members can critique and rate your game??? I see a lot of talk about other players but nothing from you to back it up.
I have posted many match videos on TTW.
I am a sandbagging 2.5
I will post an update video in the next week.
I will be at the US Open most of next week.
 

ptuanminh

Professional
I wish I could help you with the statistics, I only know of about 13 players who moved to Dallas from New York, Connecticut, Ohio, Colorado, Washington state, Nevada, Arizona, and I think South Dakota etc. who all came to the same conclusion that the level in Dallas was shifted up and voluntarily brought it up in conversations about teams they were joining here or looking to join. I very much am assuming California is the same as Dallas because the huge amount of Californians, yes, there are thousands that move here every month don't say that and are at level. I am really assuming Florida is the same with no evidence whatsoever, so forgive that pretty flimsy assumption, all I have is hearsay from local teaching pros in Dallas that say Florida is equal. Not to mention the crazy sandbagging in Los Angeles and NoCal, Houston, and Dallas, sometimes Austin.

Anyway, thanks for indulging my hot air, I just wanted to present the theory that the discrepancy in commenting (excluding TTPS) on levels here and how surprising the differing opinions are, might be due to this geography difference and two people might be judging correctly even though concluding different levels because their local players are different.
I understand your theory about discrepancy in commenting on levels. If you look under comments section on youtube, its the same thing. Videos of players in Califronia, Virginia, Texas got same wide range of ratings. Could be 2 things:
1. Video doesn't explain everything about a player. You can only play a game to find out.
2. People are dumb and they tend to overestimate their own game and underestimate others'.
LOLOLOLO, I see that Putmin (ignored) post quoted by FYB
I ignored that guy years ago, yet he is STILL my biggest fan.

He dislikes my posts? Yet he reads every single one of them, like a rabid stalker!!!!

Like a drug addict who can't click ignore.
Can't stop reading all my posts, he is addicted to TTPS.
Can't do it. Must read TTPS.

Putminh! Man, I forgot all the nutjobs I put on ignore last year.

Just admit I am the best poster here, and you are jealous
Set up alerts and follow TTPS so you get real time updates on your phone while driving, LMAO !!!
You are neurotic bro. i follow your posts for my daily dose of comedy, no shame in that. :-D :-D :-D :-D
 

jm1980

G.O.A.T.
Post links to existing videos now, no need to wait.
He's posted videos before and seems to have improved quite a bit over the course of a couple of years. He was probably a solid 3.5, maybe even low 4.0 based on the last video I saw from him
 

jm1980

G.O.A.T.
I understand your theory about discrepancy in commenting on levels. If you look under comments section on youtube, its the same thing. Videos of players in Califronia, Virginia, Texas got same wide range of ratings. Could be 2 things:
1. Video doesn't explain everything about a player. You can only play a game to find out.
2. People are dumb and they tend to overestimate their own game and underestimate others'.
I think the main culprit is the "video effect." People don't realize how much slower everything actually looks on video

Every single time a video is posted here (or on Youtube) with some level attached to it, we get the following responses or variations thereof:
  • "there is no way they are <INSERT LEVEL HERE>, that guy has no <INSERT STROKE HERE>"
  • "they can't be <INSERT LEVEL HERE>, they are so inconsistent!
  • "if these guys are <INSERT LEVEL HERE>, then I am at least a (<INSERT LEVEL HERE> + 2.0)!"
If the video also includes a geographical location and it's not FL, TX, or SoCal, we also get:
  • "these guys would get destroyed by <INSERT LEVEL HERE> players in my area!"
  • "(<INSERT LEVEL HERE> - 1.0) at best in FL/TX/SoCal"
 
For the record, I would say both Trav and Shroud at 3.5
There is a lot to be said for experience.
Trav's mechnics look 2.5
Shroud's is better, but he's wildly inconsistent.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
That is what I think of when I say 4.5
Guys hitting hard off both wings.
These are the types of 4.5 that make TravelJam look like a 3.0
If these guys rallied with an ATP pro, your mother would not be able to tell who is the pro.
If you can't tell the difference between these two guys and two pros, that just says to me that you are likely no better than 3.0 yourself.
 
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