Discuss the possible match ups of the 5 best all time (men and women)

[jasonbrown]

I think most can agree the top 5 women all time are Chris and Martina, Steffi, Serena, Margaret. The men is a little harder to define, but lets say it is Laver, Federer, Borg, Djokovic, and either Gonzales or Sampras since I know a lot of people would know almost nothing about Gonzales's game and Samrpas is the perfect stand in considering they are virtually the same player (style and weapons wise). I leave out Nadal in part since it is boring to have 3 of the 5 have all their match ups vs one another already covered in full, with no room to speculate on, plus I sort of dont consider him top 5 anyway even though I know almost everyone would disagree with me.

Women:

Chris and Martina- Nothing to speculate on really, a ton of prime to prime matches for years. The only thing I would bother saying is if Chris started playing with graphite earlier she never has that embarassing 13 match loss streak to Martina, which is damaging to her reputation to a lot of people.

Chris and Court- This IMO would be one of the most one sided of all the GOAT on GOAT match ups. Their careers briefly crossed at opposite ends, so virtually no prime to prime matches occured, but watching videos of matches that did take place is telling to me. It seems Chris is an awful match up for Court, since she seems to read Court's serve and game better than anyone, including someone like King who should do it better as she has played King many more times. I see prime to prime Court doing quite poorly in this match up, only having some success on grass.

Court and Martina- I see Court being a tough opponent for Martina even in her peak years. 83-84 Martina probably has a winning version over any Court, but there is never no 13 match win streak like she compiled vs Chris IMO. I dont see Martina particularly likes to play other attackers, where she has to constantly win a race to net, and come up with her share of passing shots and effective returns against a net rusher. Court's powerful forehand and powerful first serve would also push Martina back on her heels, and let her dictate a fair number of points which Martina does not like her opponent to be doing. Martina also does not have the intensity to really disrupt Court's sometimes fragile nerves. It would be a good match up all the way around. The ironic thing is I see Chris having a clear edge over Court, but Court in most ways doing better vs Martina than Chris did.

Martina and Graf- I could see this being a difficult match up for Graf. Even when she overtook Martina and began regularly beating her I sensed some discomfort when they played. I do not think Graf really likes to play attacking players, although if she played in an era where there were more of them she would probably have gotten used to it. Martina even past her prime almost always gave Steffi tough matches, usually 3 set losses, and scored a couple wins. That said the head to head would still be close, I am pretty sure despite the match up issues Graf has a winning record on clay, a winning record on rebound ace assuming they played in the era of Rebound ace or plexicusion and generally slower than medium courts of any sort. Martina would probably have a winning record on most or all faster courts, but Graf would score some wins there too, so the overall head to head tally would be competitive.

Serena and Graf- This one I have the least opinion of. Their 2 matches in 99 at opposite ends of their career were fairly inconclusive. There also isnt one distinct thing about eithers playing style which either seems to prefer going against, nor being particularly bothered me. Some others would have to cover this one, I need to think about it more. The only thing I would draw from their coupe matches is even prime to prime matches Serena would probably be hitting more winners (which would be unsuual for Steffi who almost always led her opponents in winners) but also regularly making more errors most times they played, which could lead to either result.

Serena and Chris- Horrible match up for Chris IMO. You need to come at Serena hard with force and athleticsm, even rushing her into errors cannot be attained any other way. The most similar player to Chris playing style wise is Martina Hingis, who was going to become useless against Serena had she kept playing into 2002 IMO (she had already lost their last 3 matches, destroyed in 2 o f them). Chris would score some wins on clay for sure, not sure beyond that though.

Chris and Graf- Another bad match up for Chris had it occured prime to prime. Of course we never saw prime to prime, and the results were quite conclusive even considering the stage of her career Chris was in. Lost their final 8 matches, only 1 set won, very rarely competitively played. Vastly different from Martina's performance vs Graf. Even Chris's pigeon Viginia Wade did better and scored a better ratio of wins in old post 30 age vs fully prime Chris than Chris vs Steffi. Again too Chris's closest clone is Hingis, and we all know how awful the Graf match up was for Hingis. Those kind of players rely on working their opponents ever and immaculately constructing points with ultimate precision. A player like Graf with insanely good movement making it hard to create openings with great point construction and strategy, who can also badly overpower them, and rarely leaks a lot of free errors in long points, is their worst nightmare.

Those are just the start. I will finish the women and start on some of the men later.

Men

Sampras/Gonzales vs Federer- I see Sampras/Gonzales doing quite well on faster courts actually, probably splitting the matches about evenly. When in top form and serving great, attacking effectively overall and while keeping the errors down, he could overpower a prime Federer. Slower courts would drastically favor Fedreer though, even slowish hard courts.

 

[BTURNER]

I think most can agree the top 5 women all time are Chris and Martina, Steffi, Serena, Margaret. The men is a little harder to define, but lets say it is Laver, Federer, Borg, Djokovic, and either Gonzales or Sampras since I know a lot of people would know almost nothing about Gonzales's game and Samrpas is the perfect stand in considering they are virtually the same player (style and weapons wise). I leave out Nadal in part since it is boring to have 3 of the 5 have all their match ups vs one another already covered in full, with no room to speculate on, plus I sort of dont consider him top 5 anyway even though I know almost everyone would disagree with me.
Women:
Chris and Martina- Nothing to speculate on really, a ton of prime to prime matches for years. The only thing I would bother saying is if Chris started playing with graphite earlier she never has that embarassing 13 match loss streak to Martina, which is damaging to her reputation to a lot of people.
Chris and Court- This IMO would be one of the most one sided of all the GOAT on GOAT match ups. Their careers briefly crossed at opposite ends, so virtually no prime to prime matches occured, but watching videos of matches that did take place is telling to me. It seems Chris is an awful match up for Court, since she seems to read Court's serve and game better than anyone, including someone like King who should do it better as she has played King many more times. I see prime to prime Court doing quite poorly in this match up, only having some success on grass.



Court and Martina- I see Court being a tough opponent for Martina even in her peak years. 83-84 Martina probably has a winning version over any Court, but there is never no 13 match win streak like she compiled vs Chris IMO. I dont see Martina particularly likes to play other attackers, where she has to constantly win a race to net, and come up with her share of passing shots and effective returns against a net rusher. Court's powerful forehand and powerful first serve would also push Martina back on her heels, and let her dictate a fair number of points which Martina does not like her opponent to be doing. Martina also does not have the intensity to really disrupt Court's sometimes fragile nerves. It would be a good match up all the way around. The ironic thing is I see Chris having a clear edge over Court, but Court in most ways doing better vs Martina than Chris did.
Martina and Graf- I could see this being a difficult match up for Graf. Even when she overtook Martina and began regularly beating her I sensed some discomfort when they played. I do not think Graf really likes to play attacking players, although if she played in an era where there were more of them she would probably have gotten used to it. Martina even past her prime almost always gave Steffi tough matches, usually 3 set losses, and scored a couple wins. That said the head to head would still be close, I am pretty sure despite the match up issues Graf has a winning record on clay, a winning record on rebound ace assuming they played in the era of Rebound ace or plexicusion and generally slower than medium courts of any sort. Martina would probably have a winning record on most or all faster courts, but Graf would score some wins there too, so the overall head to head tally would be competitive.

Serena and Graf- This one I have the least opinion of. Their 2 matches in 99 at opposite ends of their career were fairly inconclusive. There also isnt one distinct thing about eithers playing style which either seems to prefer going against, nor being particularly bothered me. Some others would have to cover this one, I need to think about it more. The only thing I would draw from their coupe matches is even prime to prime matches Serena would probably be hitting more winners (which would be unsuual for Steffi who almost always led her opponents in winners) but also regularly making more errors most times they played, which could lead to either result.
Serena and Chris- Horrible match up for Chris IMO. You need to come at Serena hard with force and athleticsm, even rushing her into errors cannot be attained any other way. The most similar player to Chris playing style wise is Martina Hingis, who was going to become useless against Serena had she kept playing into 2002 IMO (she had already lost their last 3 matches, destroyed in 2 o f them). Chris would score some wins on clay for sure, not sure beyond that though.



Chris and Graf- Another bad match up for Chris had it occured prime to prime. Of course we never saw prime to prime, and the results were quite conclusive even considering the stage of her career Chris was in. Lost their final 8 matches, only 1 set won, very rarely competitively played. Vastly different from Martina's performance vs Graf. Even Chris's pigeon Viginia Wade did better and scored a better ratio of wins in old post 30 age vs fully prime Chris than Chris vs Steffi. Again too Chris's closest clone is Hingis, and we all know how awful the Graf match up was for Hingis. Those kind of players rely on working their opponents ever and immaculately constructing points with ultimate precision. A player like Graf with insanely good movement making it hard to create openings with great point construction and strategy, who can also badly overpower them, and rarely leaks a lot of free errors in long points, is their worst nightmare.



Those are just the start. I will finish the women and start on some of the men later.

Men

Sampras/Gonzales vs Federer- I see Sampras/Gonzales doing quite well on faster courts actually, probably splitting the matches about evenly. When in top form and serving great, attacking effectively overall and while keeping the errors down, he could overpower a prime Federer. Slower courts would drastically favor Fedreer though, even slowish hard courts.

 

[BTURNER]

Chris and Martina - Two more points. Evert ended up playing Martina a lot more often on carpet and grass, than Martina played her on hard courts and clay. Also relevant. Evert's consistency at Wimbledon, at the Aussie actually works to her disadvantage in this Head to Head because she ended up making her to her appointed seeding at the semis and finals when Martina did not consistently reach her seeding at the Open and RG. If Martina does not show up at the semis and finals of RG and the US Opens, she does not lose to Evert as often as Evert loses to her.
Chris and Margaret - I agree this is a tough match up of Court, but I think you are too hard on Margaret here. This rivalry had three phases. Phase 1 Margaret was all at sea, had no clue how to play this young girl and lost 6 consecutive sets in three meetings. Horrible. Phase 2. Beginning with Newport late in 1972, Margaret comes back to win 4 of the next 5 matches straight through 1973. Great effort! Phase 3. After Post Partum Margaret takes a year and a half away from the tour, and now is in her 30's, she is a shadow of her glorious years, does not reach a single major final and looses every match against #1 in the world Evert. In retrospect, she probably should not have tried this comeback.
Martina and Margaret - I think Margaret would have been a tough opponent for Martina on any surface, as long as they played their matches with wooden rackets and Peak Martina ( 83-84) is not playing. Martina's winner to error ration improved dramatically with graphite and Peak Martina is just too fast and too strong for even Margaret to stop. Margaret was a bit less ambitious by temperament, and more willing to construct her points, thus better suited to wood racket play.
Steffi and Martina - I basically agree on fast surfaces. Martina is a difficult match-up for everyone because she is a lefty with a great serve out wide, because she is such an aggressive s/ver, and so few players except Court or Evert are used to playing against this style at all. Martina takes the most getting used to, so Martina is going to win a lot of first sets, period. Graf is more suspect because that slice backhand will need a lot of practice to get it directed out of Martina's reach. But I definitely think Graf's legs will get to a hell of a lot of those volleys in plenty of time on slower courts. Graf wins a lot of matches in three sets.
Serena and Steffi - I think Graf is meeting one of the few players with enough power off both sides, that Graf dare not fudge over to her forehand side, and can't dominate rallies with her forehand as she leaves her backhand side too open. She had this problem with Seles and Pierce too, because Seles could drill everything off both wings for clean winners. Graf was on her heels a lot playing defense, and would be against Serena. Graf wins the clay matches.
Serena and Chris - Can't help but agree here, entirely. I will say that no one's game would need more retooling in a wood racket era than Serena's. Everything about her game requires that huge sweetspot, and that enormous power she generates. Serena's style with every swing of her racket translates into one big UE, and one big service fault until she learns to dial all that aggression back. Then she just isn't Serena anymore! No one's game needs less retooling between wood and graphite than Evert's did. If you saw this match up with the equipment Evert built her game on, this whole picture looks very different. In the 70's, Chrissie just loved playing people who tried to hit her off the court. They made for 6-2, 6-3 scores and they were NOT doing the winning!
Steffi and Chris - I tend to agree here as well. Graf's game was built to beat players with two handed backhands that were littering both the junior tour and the pro tour. That crosscourt slice stays bounces low, offering very little for them to work with in their comfort zone hitting range and that inside out forehand of hers goes straight into their shot with compromised reach. If they are trying to avoid that forehand that she likes to run around and hit, they end up with so little safe real estate in her backhand corner to hit into, it puts a lot of pressure for consistent accuracy. If its not close enough to the sideline, she runs around and clocks it. If its too close to the sideline they are prone to err. I do think that Evert was just starting to figure out some successful patterns in 1988 and 1989 that were complicating Graf's wins. She was finally getting to TB.s and took her first set in seven matches early in 1989! Nobody was a better problem solver than Chris, whatever the problem. But by mid year 1989, she was slowing down and tiring out. You cannot play Graf if you have lost half a step and are huffing and puffing in long rallies.

 

[jasonbrown]

Chris and Martina - Two more points. Evert ended up playing Martina a lot more often on carpet and grass, than Martina played her on hard courts and clay. Also relevant. Evert's consistency at Wimbledon, at the Aussie actually works to her disadvantage in this Head to Head because she ended up making her to her appointed seeding at the semis and finals when Martina did not consistently reach her seeding at the Open and RG. If Martina does not show up at the semis and finals of RG and the US Opens, she does not lose to Evert as often as Evert loses to her.
Chris and Margaret - I agree this is a tough match up of Court, but I think you are too hard on Margaret here. This rivalry had three phases. Phase 1 Margaret was all at sea, had no clue how to play this young girl and lost 6 consecutive sets in three meetings. Horrible. Phase 2. Beginning with Newport late in 1972, Margaret comes back to win 4 of the next 5 matches straight through 1973. Great effort! Phase 3. After Post Partum Margaret takes a year and a half away from the tour, and now is in her 30's, she is a shadow of her glorious years, does not reach a single major final and looses every match against #1 in the world Evert. In retrospect, she probably should not have tried this comeback.
Martina and Margaret - I think Margaret would have been a tough opponent for Martina on any surface, as long as they played their matches with wooden rackets and Peak Martina ( 83-84) is not playing. Martina's winner to error ration improved dramatically with graphite and Peak Martina is just too fast and too strong for even Margaret to stop. Margaret was a bit less ambitious by temperament, and more willing to construct her points, thus better suited to wood racket play.
Steffi and Martina - I basically agree on fast surfaces. Martina is a difficult match-up for everyone because she is a lefty with a great serve out wide, because she is such an aggressive s/ver, and so few players except Court or Evert are used to playing against this style at all. Martina takes the most getting used to, so Martina is going to win a lot of first sets, period. Graf is more suspect because that slice backhand will need a lot of practice to get it directed out of Martina's reach. But I definitely think Graf's legs will get to a hell of a lot of those volleys in plenty of time on slower courts. Graf wins a lot of matches in three sets.
Serena and Steffi - I think Graf is meeting one of the few players with enough power off both sides, that Graf dare not fudge over to her forehand side, and can't dominate rallies with her forehand as she leaves her backhand side too open. She had this problem with Seles and Pierce too, because Seles could drill everything off both wings for clean winners. Graf was on her heels a lot playing defense, and would be against Serena. Graf wins the clay matches.
Serena and Chris - Can't help but agree here, entirely. I will say that no one's game would need more retooling in a wood racket era than Serena's. Everything about her game requires that huge sweetspot, and that enormous power she generates. Serena's style with every swing of her racket translates into one big UE, and one big service fault until she learns to dial all that aggression back. Then she just isn't Serena anymore! No one's game needs less retooling between wood and graphite than Evert's did. If you saw this match up with the equipment Evert built her game on, this whole picture looks very different.
Steffi and Chris - I tend to agree here as well. Graf's game was built to beat players with two handed backhands that were littering both the junior tour and the pro tour. That crosscourt slice stays bounces low, offering very little for them to work with in their comfort zone hitting range and that inside out forehand of hers goes straight into their shot with compromised reach. If they are trying to avoid that forehand that she likes to run around and hit, they end up with so little safe real estate in her backhand corner to hit into, it puts a lot of pressure for consistent accuracy. If its not close enough to the sideline, she runs around and clocks it. If its too close to the sideline they are prone to err. I do think that Evert was just starting to figure out some successful patterns in 1988 and 1989 that were complicating Graf's wins. She was finally getting to TB.s and took her first set in seven matches early in 1989! Nobody was a better problem solver than Chris, whatever the problem. But by mid year 1989, she was slowing down and tiring out. You cannot play Graf if you have lost half a step and are huffing and puffing in long rallies.

Thanks so much for your analysis. I agree with pretty much everything you said. Could you do some of the men, and Navratilova-Serena which is another one I am struggling a bit to break down. Part of that is Serena never plays attacking players or net rushers today, so I do not even know who to look at for reference.

 

[BTURNER]

Thanks so much for your analysis. I agree with pretty much everything you said. Could you do some of the men, and Navratilova-Serena which is another one I am struggling a bit to break down. Part of that is Serena never plays attacking players or net rushers today, so I do not even know who to look at for reference.

I think it best if I leave the guys alone. I will only look like a fool. I stopped watching most men in the mid nineties. While I have seen all these greats play and know enough to admire Nadal, and Fed, and Djok, etc. There are far more proficient experts here for that. With Serena and Martina, I suspect Serena will have trouble until she gets a feel for Martina's serve lefty spin, but thereafter, its simple. Martina's serve and volley style died for a reason. It will not work with modern rackets, and surfaces. Serena will stand closer in for the return and with her larger sweet spot, blast the ball past before Martina gets into volley position. Passing is so much simpler now. Unless you are on the dead run, you just plant your feet and swing. With this power, you don't even have to keep it as close to the sideline. There is no time for the volleyer to react to the pace. Life would get more difficult only if she has to play Martina on FAST LOW BOUNCING WET English or American lawns where Martina's slice pancakes. Serena has never played on those super fast grass courts of the eighties and earlier and those sets start coming in twos. Now if we are using those wood rackets of old... I start to give Martina a real advantage to win more on other surfaces as well.

Evert was seen as the best all time passing shot artist because she passed all the greats, consistently enough to win time after time when grass was fast, it was sittiing on either three of the four majors or two of the four majors and the rackets had a sweetspot no bigger a mandarin orange, and the entire racket face was no bigger than a grapefruit. power was only part of the answer to someone standing at the net. Placement, touch and more nuanced tactics played a far greater role in thwarting a Court or Martina. The idea was often to throw the timing of the volleyer off, just enough that the ball did not hit the sweetspot and an error resulting. You could use off speed shots, make them reach a little more than they expected, or use lobs that need not be high enough that they could not reach, but that one that moved more in the high breeze... That sort of stuff does not work anymore. If modern players get the racket on the ball, you would be pretty much toast - if they knew how to volley in the first place. But they really don't have the instincts up at net, any more than modern players know the nuances of how to drag them out of proper positioning or throw them off their game. .

 

[davidjaan1982]

I also feel that The Chris/Court rivalry at their respective peaks would have been quite 1-sided in Chris’s favor. I also think we need to examine their 1973 matches more closely.

While Court won 3 of their 4 matches in 1973, the French Open should have been Evert’s in straight sets and this loss reflected her not being ready yet for the top spot. Court on the other hand was the undisputed Number 1 that year and it was only a bad loss to Evert at Wimbledon on grass that prevented a grand slam for Court that year.

Their other 2 matches were close 3 setters on grass won by Court. Evert held her own though and demonstrated her anticipation of Court’s game and moved Court around. No other woman managed to trouble Court as much Evert did that year when she was not at her peak whereas Court still was Number 1.

If they met at their respective peaks, I think Evert would have easily dominated.

 

[Dan Lobb]

I also feel that The Chris/Court rivalry at their respective peaks would have been quite 1-sided in Chris’s favor. I also think we need to examine their 1973 matches more closely.

While Court won 3 of their 4 matches in 1973, the French Open should have been Evert’s in straight sets and this loss reflected her not being ready yet for the top spot. Court on the other hand was the undisputed Number 1 that year and it was only a bad loss to Evert at Wimbledon on grass that prevented a grand slam for Court that year.

Their other 2 matches were close 3 setters on grass won by Court. Evert held her own though and demonstrated her anticipation of Court’s game and moved Court around. No other woman managed to trouble Court as much Evert did that year when she was not at her peak whereas Court still was Number 1.

If they met at their respective peaks, I think Evert would have easily dominated.

Did Evert play well after giving birth twice?

 

[davidjaan1982]

Did Evert play well after giving birth twice?

No, but we cannot keep having some reason or the other.

1975 and 1977 matches between them are to be discounted because Court was over the hill; 1973 because she just came back from Child birth.

What about 1972 when Evert won 2 of 3 matches and what about the 1970 victory for Evert? Also, between 1970 and 1973, Court seemed to have trouble only against Evert. Does that not count?

I think Evert was just a terrible match up for Court. It is as simple as that.

 

[Dan Lobb]

No, but we cannot keep having some reason or the other.

1975 and 1977 matches between them are to be discounted because Court was over the hill; 1973 because she just came back from Child birth.

What about 1972 when Evert won 2 of 3 matches and what about the 1970 victory for Evert? Also, between 1970 and 1973, Court seemed to have trouble only against Evert. Does that not count?

I think Evert was just a terrible match up for Court. It is as simple as that.

Often when a great player has some trouble with a younger player, they make some adjustments to their game and come back strong, Court seems to have done that in 1973. Court won two of three big matches against Evert in 1973.

 

[jasonbrown]

It is actually the 1972 matches when Court was just coming back from child birth. Not so much their 1973 matches. The 2 matches they played in late 72 Court was just coming back, was subpar all around (losing to King easily their first matches back).

I dont see why Court needs any excuses for 1973. She went 4-1 against the much younger Evert. Pretty impressive given that Court was 31 years old and while Evert was 18/19, years later a 31/32 year old Evert could no longer buy wins or even sets off a 16/17 year old Graf. So if we are saying Court was supposably much more in her prime than Evert then, that really makes Evert look just awful in the match up vs Graf doesnt it.

I agree Evert is a bad natural match up for Court. Still some perspective is needed. The only really bad loss Court took to Evert was that 1970 one, when she was probably still partying over doing the Grand Slam.

 

[jasonbrown]

Would like to see some opinions of Serena-Navratilova and Federer-Borg. Those are two hypothetical match ups I find interesting. Maybe Sampras-Borg as well.

 

[davidjaan1982]

It is actually the 1972 matches when Court was just coming back from child birth. Not so much their 1973 matches. The 2 matches they played in late 72 Court was just coming back, was subpar all around (losing to King easily their first matches back).

I dont see why Court needs any excuses for 1973. She went 4-1 against the much younger Evert. Pretty impressive given that Court was 31 years old and while Evert was 18/19, years later a 31/32 year old Evert could no longer buy wins or even sets off a 16/17 year old Graf. So if we are saying Court was supposably much more in her prime than Evert then, that really makes Evert look just awful in the match up vs Graf doesnt it.

I agree Evert is a bad natural match up for Court. Still some perspective is needed. The only really bad loss Court took to Evert was that 1970 one, when she was probably still partying over doing the Grand Slam.

I guess it finally comes down to how close we think Evert was to her best in 1972-1973 and how far off Court was from hers. Since neither of them were at their peak, there is a significant amount of subjectivity here naturally.

Since the comparison with Evert/Graf invariably comes up, I wanted to make a couple of points: a) Evert won their first 6 meetings including in 1986 which was the last year when Evert won a slam (French); b) By then Graf had started overpowering Evert: the power era had arrived: and c) Graf is anyway rated higher than Evert in the all-time list. I don’t think the comparison can be made based on their age gap being similar to that of Evert/Court. The age at which women were peaking was coming done drastically and Graf was reflective of this phenomena.

The one thing on which we all agree seems to be that Evert was a bad match up for Court. As to who would have come out on top had they both played at their respective peak - I guess we have to just hypothesize and conjecture and periodically have intense, but inconclusive debate!!

 

[jasonbrown]

Well I agree Evert is a bad match up for Court, and comes on top in that match up. I do think Court did quite well vs Evert in 73 though, and it shows some potential for her in the match up as well. It might not be as lopsided as some would think, but I still see Evert having a winning record for sure. I think Court would have done a bit better vs Navratilova, atleast peak Navratilova that won 13 in a row vs Evert, than Evert did though.