"disguise" on the serve

[chic]

Still travelling for the holidays and haven't gotten to hit at all :'( but my mind's on improvement and here's a thought I was having. What dictates "disguise" on the service? How important in your opinion is it to disguise kick serves from flat serves (as I feel the pronation motion kinda gives it away)?

As I improve my flat serve I feel like I'm opening my chest less, giving an earlier warning that I'm throwing a fastball, but 1) I'm not sure it's actually that different 2) my kick might just naturally get a more closed form as my flat does 3) do I really care if they know flat or spin early in the motion, they still gotta react to placement?

Or is disguise just having a good enough toss people can't tell from that and the rest is unimportant?

On that note here's a quoted post with some of my serves from another thread, rate how well disguised you'd consider my serve (or do I need to show of from the receiver perspective?):

Alright no one else was out tonight but I propped up the phone on my hopper against the wall and hit a few serves to end the night. Wanted to give an honest impression so I hit 2 warmup swings then 10 balls hitting flat. I think I went 5-5 in/ out. Not my best but alright for the conditions imo.

Since I know guys who hit bomb first serves then can't hit a second serves is a trope I hit 5 second serves just to show that 5-5 on firsts isn't unreasonable (also took 2 warm ups here).
Hit one let then the next 4 in. (The second wasn't where I aimed but still in the box hence the head shake).

Finally for reference, this is a 115mph I tracked on the app a month or two ago iirc. It's one of the only two serves I've tracked on the app as I just wanted to try it out. Not super convenient to use bc someone has to sit there and record for you or I'd use it more.

Edit: my name is Cody Nelson and I play in Clemson SC rn if you wanna check my rating. I'm at 3.5 self-rate right now, but that was when I was still shaking the rust back off. Won a doubles tourney semi recently so and I'm going to try and attend enough next year to at least get bumped to 4.0

 

[J011yroger]

Disguise isn't so important at your current state as accuracy or consistency.

If you want the honest truth, you don't have any disguise on your ball with regard to spin or direction.

Your #1 priority should be developing a 70% serve.

For you that is 95ish mph with good spin.

Once you have that serve then disguise will be attainable because your contact angle will be corrected.

J

 

[LeeD]

Disguise is not important because both you and your opponent will be surprised when your serve goes in where and how you want it.
Up to 5.5.

 

[2nd Serve Ace]

You have a decidedly more inward toss the more center you try to hit the serve.

Not sure if this could be picked up on the other end, though.

Maybe a conti grip could make that T serve without a toss change?

 

[chic]

Once you have that serve then disguise will be attainable because your contact angle will be corrected.

J

I take this to mean I'm not really tossing consistently because I'm drawing my placement from the toss and not the serve timing? So get the 70% fastish and spinny swing and drill the toss to death?

Or

Literally a timing problem with my pronation and the angle of contact?

---

Ie what am I actively trying to work on when going for the 70% serve?

 

[chic]

Disguise is not important because both you and your opponent will be surprised when your serve goes in where and how you want it.
Up to 5.5.

Hey I'm really good at generally picking one of and serving in 3 zones (more than that is definitely beyond me though )


You're definitely right that people aren't usually reading where it's going at my level regardless of how obvious I am tho, but I'm not just trying to beat people at level . . .

 

[chic]

You have a decidedly more inward toss the more center you try to hit the serve.

Not sure if this could be picked up on the other end, though.

Maybe a conti grip could make that T serve without a toss change?

I thought I was Conti on the flatties

Will do some watching of my own serve videos and play around with the grip a little when I get back out. See if I can't pick up what you're putting down

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Typically the only time I try to disguise my serve is a slice wide on the Deuce: if I think he's leaning towards the middle, I don't want to give away my intention by tossing too far out. I want the same toss as a flat serve.

Aside from that, I'm more worried about serve % and placement. If they're clobbering the return, I will have to rethink.

 

[Curious]

Federer is serving. Forget about the spin. How do you tell whether he will go down the T or wide? It sounds like a futile effort.

 

[2nd Serve Ace]

I thought I was Conti on the flatties
/QUOTE]

Also just generally speed up the tempo on the T serve for better effectiveness. (Good center serves are based on the opponent shading wide and, then, cant be returned even if detected early)

 

[J011yroger]

I take this to mean I'm not really tossing consistently because I'm drawing my placement from the toss and not the serve timing? So get the 70% fastish and spinny swing and drill the toss to death?

Or

Literally a timing problem with my pronation and the angle of contact?

---

Ie what am I actively trying to work on when going for the 70% serve?

Can you post the video frame where you make contact and I'll show you. I can't go frame by frame on my phone.

Also pm me your email address.

J

 

[chic]

Can you post the video frame where you make contact and I'll show you. I can't go frame by frame on my phone.

Also pm me your email address.

J

Also on mobile atm, but I'll do it later tonight and tag you.

 

[dominikk1985]

Disguise isn't so important at your current state as accuracy or consistency.

If you want the honest truth, you don't have any disguise on your ball with regard to spin or direction.

Your #1 priority should be developing a 70% serve.

For you that is 95ish mph with good spin.

Once you have that serve then disguise will be attainable because your contact angle will be corrected.

J

Agreed. Better a well placed serve with decent velocity that the opponent expects than a crappy one that surprises him. At high levels disguise is important but at lower levels placement, velocity and spin and much more important than disguise and will give the opponent fits even if he expects it.

That is just like in baseball, if you pitch in high school and you throw 95 down the pipe hitters still won't hit it but in the majors that gets crushed.the same applies in tennis, at lower levels executions trumps disguise.

Sure if you face prime agassi you better have disguise but at lower levels placement and velocity will do the job regardless.

 

[ionlyplaysquash]

I think disguise comes down to using a similar motion and toss on every serve. Tossing the ball consistently for each serve is pretty easy to get down with enough practice, but using a similar motion isn't as easy. I personally deal with this by serving on some spectrum between kick and slice for every serve (for example my "flat" serve would just be a kick serve with more pace, and I'll only hit one pure flat serve maybe once or twice a match). This means the motion stays pretty much the same throughout the match.

Also be aware of the subtleties in how you shift your body weight on your serve and also how much your torso rotates. This is how I read most serves and you do give it away a bit.

Anyway I think you should focus more on serve quality, because up to a certain level, knowing where the serve is going doesn't always mean the returner can deal with it any better because there's always a little bit of uncertainty and a well-placed heater up the tee is going to be tough to deal with any day of the week!

A note: for a fun drill for serve disguise, take the old drill that Sampras allegedly practised - have somebody call out where to serve the ball right after the ball leaves your hand from the toss so you have to use a nondescript motion - and try to get a streak of, say, five serves on target for first serve practice and ten serves on target for second serve practice. Your partner judges whether or not the serve was satisfactorily on the mark. Set up water bottle targets or whatever if you like!

 

[chic]

@J011yroger with travel delays and whatnot around Christmas I forgot about this thread, except for the general idea of developing a slower but still fast serve (also it was cold so I was less inclined to go hit serves till it warmed up). Did some videos today with a couple of my better hopper balls and snagged the screengrabs for contact angle.

I think I've developed the type of serve you were referring to but would appreciate you looking at my serve in general, and if I haven't you continuing your explanation.

I'll post the screen grabs in a second as they're on my laptop not mobile.

The videos were recorded in slomo mode on my pixel so 240 fps. When they export they export at 30fps and 1/8 speed. Probably a way around this, but better than the 30fps I used to use.

 

[chic]

https://imgur.com/a/Jro6gJ4

Red X means I missed the serve.

Toss felt low for the serves in the 2nd video (lower images)

 

[chic]

I think disguise comes down to using a similar motion and toss on every serve. Tossing the ball consistently for each serve is pretty easy to get down with enough practice, but using a similar motion isn't as easy. I personally deal with this by serving on some spectrum between kick and slice for every serve (for example my "flat" serve would just be a kick serve with more pace, and I'll only hit one pure flat serve maybe once or twice a match). This means the motion stays pretty much the same throughout the match.

Also be aware of the subtleties in how you shift your body weight on your serve and also how much your torso rotates. This is how I read most serves and you do give it away a bit.

Anyway I think you should focus more on serve quality, because up to a certain level, knowing where the serve is going doesn't always mean the returner can deal with it any better because there's always a little bit of uncertainty and a well-placed heater up the tee is going to be tough to deal with any day of the week!

A note: for a fun drill for serve disguise, take the old drill that Sampras allegedly practised - have somebody call out where to serve the ball right after the ball leaves your hand from the toss so you have to use a nondescript motion - and try to get a streak of, say, five serves on target for first serve practice and ten serves on target for second serve practice. Your partner judges whether or not the serve was satisfactorily on the mark. Set up water bottle targets or whatever if you like!

I'm not sure I saw this post the first time around but that drill sounds interesting.

I feel like I have a consistent motion on each, (although second serves I ebh as mentioned above so the pure kick may be obvious to someone watching my hand even if placement isn't) but would believe that I don't and just don't know what to look for. My methodology for changing location is just holding the hip rotation timing slightly (longer I wait the more toward center) or at least that's all I think I change.

I need to get some hula hoops and do that drill

 

[J011yroger]

https://imgur.com/a/Jro6gJ4

Red X means I missed the serve.

Toss felt low for the serves in the 2nd video (lower images)

First of all, it's a little better in that you are putting slice on the ball.

Your problem, and what I was saying in my original post is that your racquet is too vertical at contact, and your racquet to forearm angle is too big.

Every serve you should make contact inside your hand, the sweet spot on first serves is right between your hitting shoulder and your ear, on 2nds it's lined up with your chin, this means on all serves your toss has to be more to the left and lower (unless you jump higher!)

You said the bottom row was 2nd serves, now it should be obvious that to put topspin on a ball the racquet has to be moving up so look at that picture at contact on your second serve and tell me how you are going to make your racquet go up towards the sky and put topspin on the ball.

Yellow line is your ball location, green line is ideal, orange line is racquet angle.

J

 

[chic]

First of all, it's a little better in that you are putting slice on the ball.

Your problem, and what I was saying in my original post is that your racquet is too vertical at contact, and your racquet to forearm angle is too big.

Every serve you should make contact inside your hand, the sweet spot on first serves is right between your hitting shoulder and your ear, on 2nds it's lined up with your chin, this means on all serves your toss has to be more to the left and lower (unless you jump higher!)

You said the bottom row was 2nd serves, now it should be obvious that to put topspin on a ball the racquet has to be moving up so look at that picture at contact on your second serve and tell me how you are going to make your racquet go up towards the sky and put topspin on the ball.

Yellow line is your ball location, green line is ideal, orange line is racquet angle.

J

Oh no, bottom line wasn't second serves, just seemed to be tossing low for some reason.

This makes sense though. I'm not sure I knew the racquet should be so angled at contact but I think I understand the reason from a pendulum/momentum standpoint. I'll feel it out today.

Just to confirm.
1When I hit a true flat serve: I still need this angle
2 this is less about adjusting my toss and more about adjusting my motion? Or will I need to toss further left.

 

[Nostradamus]

Disguise isn't so important at your current state as accuracy or consistency.

If you want the honest truth, you don't have any disguise on your ball with regard to spin or direction.

Your #1 priority should be developing a 70% serve.

For you that is 95ish mph with good spin.

Once you have that serve then disguise will be attainable because your contact angle will be corrected.

J

do you try to read opponent's serves if they have a big serve ? is so how do you do that ?

 

[chic]

do you try to read opponent's serves if they have a big serve ? is so how do you do that ?

I know a guy my level or a little better (3.5-4.0) who hits 70-80 mph flat serves. But still has to adjust his toss about 6inches to the left for one vs the other. Since I realized I don't think I've missed a return on his serve.

Idk what level you are but moving the toss is super common at 4.0 and below.

 

[J011yroger]

Oh no, bottom line wasn't second serves, just seemed to be tossing low for some reason.

This makes sense though. I'm not sure I knew the racquet should be so angled at contact but I think I understand the reason from a pendulum/momentum standpoint. I'll feel it out today.

Just to confirm.
1When I hit a true flat serve: I still need this angle
2 this is less about adjusting my toss and more about adjusting my motion? Or will I need to toss further left.

1: Yes.
2: No, you will have to move your toss.

J

 

[Chas Tennis]

@J011yroger with travel delays and whatnot around Christmas I forgot about this thread, except for the general idea of developing a slower but still fast serve (also it was cold so I was less inclined to go hit serves till it warmed up). Did some videos today with a couple of my better hopper balls and snagged the screengrabs for contact angle.

I think I've developed the type of serve you were referring to but would appreciate you looking at my serve in general, and if I haven't you continuing your explanation.

I'll post the screen grabs in a second as they're on my laptop not mobile.

The videos were recorded in slomo mode on my pixel so 240 fps. When they export they export at 30fps and 1/8 speed. Probably a way around this, but better than the 30fps I used to use.

Compare your serve to slice serves of Ferrer and Roddick frame-by-frame. Ferrer has pin point stance like you, but Roddick has a platform stance. I looked for a good serve compilation but did not find one with a selection of slice serves with your camera angle and platform stance. Note - the term 'pronation' is misused in the video as is often done in tennis usage when describing internal shoulder rotation. (You have to Google names of the joint motions.)

To move single frame on Youtube use the period & comma keys. When you select a YT video always use the Alt key & Left Mouse Click (otherwise the video starts playing).

Compare any of your good serves to any of the slice serves in the video. Also, compare the lady's slice serve because the racket path is not correct like yours.

Here are some issues:
1) Body Posture Your body posture is not as straight as described in the Jeff Sal. video posted in the Curious post. Compare. But sometimes you might see the back with some bend. ? https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/gimme-some-serve-feedback.667801/#post-14257249
2) Carving Around the Ball. Your serves looks as if you are directing the edge of the racket to impact the ball at an angle for a slice serve. Look at the lady server 'carving around the ball'. at 1:19. Compare lady, Ferrer (0:26), Roddick (1:36) and you around for the approach to impact and just after.
3) ISR & Racket Head Rotation? Your ISR should have produced more rotation of the racket head. I think. ? I do not understand what your are doing, it looks as if internal shoulder rotation occurs, but the wrist and racket don't seem to rotate as much as the elbow shadows (elbow shadows are an indicator of ISR). ?? See how the shadows near Ferrer's elbow and forearm indicate crisp ISR rotation of his upper arm. It looks as if you do ISR but also may be doing supination - in the opposite direction - so that the wrist does not rotate as much as it should. ? If you go around the ball it will slice but it will not have as much pace as a high level slice with effective ISR like Ferrer's. The head of the racket needs to rotate as Ferrer's racket head is doing.
4) Ball Watching to Impact - Most Don't Do It. You look at the ball through impact. Most ATP servers break off looking at the ball before impact. See Ferrer & Roddick. Some do look until impact. I believe that looking at the ball through impact may limit how the head moves if the body bends. Looking at the ball for those last milliseconds probably stresses the neck. ?

See also a recent thread of mine on Thoracic Extension & Thoracic Flexion during the serve. Take care not to stress your neck or back.

 

[chic]

Compare your serve to slice serves of Ferrer and Roddick frame-by-frame. Ferrer has pin point stance like you, but Roddick has a platform stance. I looked for a good serve compilation but did not find one with a selection of slice serves with your camera angle and platform stance. Note - the term 'pronation' is misused in the video as is often done in tennis usage when describing internal shoulder rotation. (You have to Google names of the joint motions.)

To move single frame on Youtube use the period & comma keys. When you select a YT video always use the Alt key & Left Mouse Click (otherwise the video starts playing).

Compare any of your good serves to any of the slice serves in the video. Also, compare the lady's slice serve because the racket path is not correct like yours.

Here are some issues:
1) Body Posture Your body posture is not as straight as described in the Jeff Sal. video posted in the Curious post. Compare. But sometimes you might see the back with some bend. ? https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/gimme-some-serve-feedback.667801/#post-14257249
2) Carving Around the Ball. Your serves looks as if you are directing the edge of the racket to impact the ball at an angle for a slice serve. Look at the lady server 'carving around the ball'. at 1:19. Compare lady, Ferrer (0:26), Roddick (1:36) and you around for the approach to impact and just after.
3) ISR & Racket Head Rotation? Your ISR should have produced more rotation of the racket head. I think. ? I do not understand what your are doing, it looks as if internal shoulder rotation occurs, but the wrist and racket don't seem to rotate as much as the elbow shadows (elbow shadows are an indicator of ISR). ?? See how the shadows near Ferrer's elbow and forearm indicate crisp ISR rotation of his upper arm. It looks as if you do ISR but also may be doing supination - in the opposite direction - so that the wrist does not rotate as much as it should. ? If you go around the ball it will slice but it will not have as much pace as a high level slice with effective ISR like Ferrer's. The head of the racket needs to rotate as Ferrer's racket head is doing.
4) Ball Watching to Impact - Most Don't Do It. You look at the ball through impact. Most ATP servers break off looking at the ball before impact. See Ferrer & Roddick. Some do look until impact. I believe that looking at the ball through impact may limit how the head moves if the body bends. Looking at the ball for those last milliseconds probably stresses the neck. ?

See also a recent thread of mine on Thoracic Extension & Thoracic Flexion during the serve. Take care not to stress your neck or back.

1good to know there's some room for personality there. I do think I was bending too much, but feel like I've mostly fixed that and still am not as straight as that video. Also worth noting atp pros beside jack sock aren't trying to counterweight that much gut

2I guess I should have specified when I said 'slice' I more just meant I was going for not flat serves that weren't as aggressively kicking as my second. Although I do need to work on slice serves better, this was not really an attempt at that. That said this is still good advice.

3- I think this is most relevant to what I'm currently focusing on. Not that your other points aren't important, just that they aren't what I'm looking at currently to fix. I suspect the reasoning is the racquet angle jolly is talking about. Since I still pronate through but also force* this ulnar deviation and flexion (I believe this is what I'm doing rather than supination) I'm losing much of the rotation as you point out.
*I'm not really forcing it so much as have developed this way with intention not realizing it was incorrect. However I've been having a mild case of GE for a while now, especially when using dead strings and suspect 1this is the cause and 2 it's stayed mild because I have good flexibility as ulnar deviation is big in swimming.

4 will keep in mind and see if I feel any strain or hitches. Not gonna mess with it in the short term.


Thank you for such a detailed breakdown of what you're seeing. I think the technical language is helpful in understanding what I need to be adjusting. Now to just make my body do what I want......

Edit:
Adding on because I missed your comment about thoracic extension and flexion. Maybe not your most recent thread but I have read your comments on these motions before. I don't feel that I'm in any way straining the neck or back. I know better than to put a big bend in the lumbar region and I think anything cervical would make itself apparent via soreness or stiffness given how finnicky necks are.

But if you think it looks like I'm forcing something feel free to say something. Better safe than sorry.

 

[chic]

@J011yroger I tried it the past couple days in matches and maybe 50 serves out of the hopper each day. I feel like ball location looks better in these images but not necessarily racquet angle.

Going to go hit a hopper full tomorrow and see if I can't get a more pure pronation, but was wondering if you think these images are better/worse/same.

I appreciate all the feedback.

https://imgur.com/a/eCS53e0

 

[Chas Tennis]

1good to know there's some room for personality there. I do think I was bending too much, but feel like I've mostly fixed that and still am not as straight as that video. Also worth noting atp pros beside jack sock aren't trying to counterweight that much gut

2I guess I should have specified when I said 'slice' I more just meant I was going for not flat serves that weren't as aggressively kicking as my second. Although I do need to work on slice serves better, this was not really an attempt at that. That said this is still good advice.

3- I think this is most relevant to what I'm currently focusing on. Not that your other points aren't important, just that they aren't what I'm looking at currently to fix. I suspect the reasoning is the racquet angle jolly is talking about. Since I still pronate through but also force* this ulnar deviation and flexion (I believe this is what I'm doing rather than supination) I'm losing much of the rotation as you point out.
*I'm not really forcing it so much as have developed this way with intention not realizing it was incorrect. However I've been having a mild case of GE for a while now, especially when using dead strings and suspect 1this is the cause and 2 it's stayed mild because I have good flexibility as ulnar deviation is big in swimming.

4 will keep in mind and see if I feel any strain or hitches. Not gonna mess with it in the short term.


Thank you for such a detailed breakdown of what you're seeing. I think the technical language is helpful in understanding what I need to be adjusting. Now to just make my body do what I want......

Edit:
Adding on because I missed your comment about thoracic extension and flexion. Maybe not your most recent thread but I have read your comments on these motions before. I don't feel that I'm in any way straining the neck or back. I know better than to put a big bend in the lumbar region and I think anything cervical would make itself apparent via soreness or stiffness given how finnicky necks are.

But if you think it looks like I'm forcing something feel free to say something. Better safe than sorry.

My approach is to compare an unknown serving technique to a typical ATP serve and observe the differences. Sometimes the differences are a little uncertain to me or there may be more than one thing being done by ATP servers, so you should have a look for yourself in more detail if interested. Your standard should not be what you were after. But just to see the differences as they are and to check out some of what might be in use in the ATP, finding videos of your own. In other words, get as much out of the videos as possible.

Your ulnar deviation, in my opinion, might be because your hand path is too close under the ball at impact and you have to use ulnar deviation to get the racket head on the ball. The hand and racket paths are hard to compare unless the camera angles and ball trajectories, etc, are identical. You can look at serves for decades and all servers seem to have the same hand and racket paths. But if you look carefully at Ferrer you can see his wrist joint is more neutral and his hand is more to the right of impact and his racket shaft is tilted more to the left. Discussing each detail and why and mixing that with your goals and program is a lot harder than simply observing every video difference using the same camera angles.

Take a week and observe details in videos.

You also need a side view of your serve.

If you would take a high speed video using a tripod with the same camera angle as the Ferrer serve you might see what you are doing - just see it all in one serve. Bright sunlight shows shadows on the elbow that can indicate ISR. There is a very strong tendency to orient the racket face to get the serve to go where you want it to. You seem to be doing ISR and that should cause the arm and racket head to rotate clockwise as viewed from above. But somehow the racket is going behind the ball racket angled to face left.................??

If you have a Golfer's Elbow injury that is a tendon tear injury and you should stop playing. Search Tendon Injury Nuthouse for some publications, posts #1 & #15, on tendinitis and tendinosis. After a very short time newly injured tendon tissue can heal with defective tendon tissue. GE has been associated with the serve and forehand. I never understood the details of the injury for the serve or forehand.

 

[J011yroger]

@J011yroger I tried it the past couple days in matches and maybe 50 serves out of the hopper each day. I feel like ball location looks better in these images but not necessarily racquet angle.

Going to go hit a hopper full tomorrow and see if I can't get a more pure pronation, but was wondering if you think these images are better/worse/same.

I appreciate all the feedback.

https://imgur.com/a/eCS53e0

It looks like you tossed left and tilted your body more so that you could hit the ball the same way you used to.

You are going to have to go very slowly for a long time to make this change.

J

 

[Chas Tennis]

What model ATP server do you use?

 

[onehandbh]

The racquet to forearm angle @J011yroger mentioned is vital for being able to hit serves with decent spin. Make sure to use a continental grip.

Try just serving without using your legs at first. Go nice and easy when making this change.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Background. For the tennis serve consider the forearm-racket angle when the racket impacts the ball. The forearm-racket angle only at impact is of interest for this thread.

The forearm-racket angle will vary a lot as seen from different camera views (see comment & demo at end).

The forearm-racket angle can be viewed as having two separate components, as seen in a side view and a behind view.

This component of the forearm-racket angle, resulting in a near vertical racket at impact as seen from the side, is necessary to keep the serve in.

1) Side View. Viewed from the side, the racket at impact is roughly vertical, give or take a few degrees. This angle changes very rapidly around impact and even during impact. As a first estimate, the angular rotation rate for the racket around impact is on the order of 1° per millisecond. What are the variations of this component for the flat, slice and kick serve? It would be helpful if some of the replies had high speed video links or, better yet, single impact frames with the camera viewing from the side (perpendicular to the ball's trajectory is best.)

Examples of the view from the side of the ball's trajectory. Note the forearm-racket angle component from the side -

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2) Behind View. Viewed from behind, the well known angle, β, between the forearm and racket that is necessary for the internal shoulder rotation (ISR) serve is very clearly displayed. It is the other component of the forearm-racket angle.
Thread on this angle, β, and ISR.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=361610

Keep in mind that these angles change very rapidly after the arm extends - angular rotation rate is on the order of 1° per millisecond as a first estimate. Also, that these rotations are never forced or controlled, 'muscled', but flow as a result of practicing the serving technique using the kinetic chain with sequential stretch-shortening cycles.

This component of the forearm-racket angle is necessary to develop racket head speed when the arm is axially rotated by ISR.

Examples of view looking along the ball's trajectory from behind to show this 2nd component of the forearm-racket angle. (The forward tilt of the arm seen in the side view does not show very well.)

Kick serve - the arm appears more vertical for the kick serve from the behind camera view.

Kick serve -

There are many common comments to describe how to hit the ball for the various types of serves:
1) kick serve - 'hit up on the ball 7 to 1 o'clock'
2) slice serve - 'hit across the back of the ball'
3) slice serve - 'hit the side of the ball with an angle on the racket face'
4) kick serve - Rafter's incomprehensible comment to 'hit 5 to 11 o'clock' or that it feels like 5 to 7 o'clock. ?
5) general serve - 'hit up the mountain'
6) general serve - 'hit as if your were throwing a racket'
7) general serve - others, please supply some of the many instructions

I have been trying to understand these verbal instructions without getting a very clear idea of what they mean.

I believe that the forearm-racket angles as viewed on high speed videos at impact will have a strong correlation with each type of serve.
Flat serve - smaller forearm-racket angle component as seen from behind.
Slice serve - smaller forearm-racket angle component as seen from behind.
Kick serve - larger forearm-racket angle component as seen from behind, as for the examples above.

These angles will also play a part in hitting 'up' on the ball. For the kick serve, the large forearm-racket angle component will allow the racket to impact the ball while traveling up and also to the right (for a RH server), a diagonal path.

Grips. Another issue to consider is the grip. The grips influence the forearm to racket angle. Moving from a continental to a 'strong' continental or backhand grip, in particular, changes the forearm to racket angle.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=483360

(Interpretation of Videos. Because the serve is a very 3D motion and the camera gets a 2D projection of it, different camera viewing angles can show most anything for the forearm-racket angle from various view points. As a demo, take a paper clip and straighten it out. Put a 45° angle in it. Hold one end and rotate the paper clip while looking at it. The apparent angle will go from 0° to 45° as it is rotated. A similar effects occurs as a camera views a forearm-racket angle from an undefined viewpoint. That's why it's useful to limit the camera viewing locations to: 1) the side and 2) behind and along the ball's trajectory.)

The above post & thread discusses angles for the serves as seen from the behind and the side camera views.

 

[chic]

What model ATP server do you use?

Generally kyrgios

 

[chic]

The racquet to forearm angle @J011yroger mentioned is vital for being able to hit serves with decent spin. Make sure to use a continental grip.

Try just serving withing using your legs at first. Go nice and easy when making this change.

Unfortunately untrue, would just put some undue strain on your wrist and forearm

I'll get it sorted though. Probably just gonna pronate standing still for a bit and do it progressive.

 

[chic]

It looks like you tossed left and tilted your body more so that you could hit the ball the same way you used to.

You are going to have to go very slowly for a long time to make this change.

J

That's what I thought I did. I just wanted to confirm I was understanding. Probably didn't need to tag you post chas' comments and understanding what I'm doing through the wrist.

*Sigh* baby steps it is

 

[Chas Tennis]

Generally kyrgios

I added a Nick Kyrgios video to post #23. It looks like a flat serve but it is better to see the difference between both slice and flat serves from the same camera angle (see Roddick slice & flat in the video). See if you can find another Kyrgios video with better quality. You can post Youtube videos on the forum and do side-by-side comparisons.

An angle between the forearm and racket shaft is necessary to get pace from ISR, otherwise the racket just spins like a top. However, once the racket head is up to serve speed that angle isn't necessary. I like to see the angle at impact roughly as if the wrist joint is neutral - look at videos. Try holding the racket and you will see the forearm to racket shaft angle is considerable with a Continental Grip. It may be stressful to use wrist joint ulnar deviation to straighten the forearm to racket shaft angle to around 180 degrees.

 

[chic]

Ugh well I've been getting out there half hour to hour early to drill this and just pronating with a racquet while I watch Netflix or do work.

Never thought of myself as a ball carver but here we are. I hit a couple good ones today. Still mostly relying on my normal serve in match play. But I understand why jolly said there was no disguise before. Kinda insulted no one I play with was able to tell the differences tbh.

Def gonna take some time before I can pronate normally without lots of thought but I feel some hope that I'll have stabilized the new serve within a month.

 

[ionlyplaysquash]

My methodology for changing location is just holding the hip rotation timing slightly (longer I wait the more toward center) or at least that's all I think I change.

When it comes to changing serve direction, whatever works is whatever works. However, some people may be able to pick up the cue in the rotation of the body. I personally look at how much people rotate their shoulders (if I can't pick up on anything else) to tell where they're gonna serve and it works pretty well. Do be wary if your method for changing locations on the serve produces effects in the rest of the motion which make it easier to read. I prefer the method of generating power the exact same way (shading my body weight to the middle of the service box, trying to rotate the same amount on each serve), then changing direction with subtle manipulation of the racquet face at contact. That way the only cue they have occurs at the very end of the motion - the less time the returner has to react, the better!

 

[chic]

Played 4 sets of doubles today and tried it out. First two at noon it was coming along but I was hesitant sometimes leading to double faults.
Seconds two sets in the evening it was hitting very nicely and only 1 double fault in 2 sets; no hesitation between staying with it or hitting the wrong way for comfort. Need to relearn precise aiming but that'll come when I get out and hit a hopper.

Unforseen consequences of fixing this improper pronation: in the last two sets I didn't miss an overhead and made a ton of them, even off balance. The improper wrist was at least consistent when I could control the balance through my serves but I always though my overheads were bad from lack of practice; nope, unstable shot bc of poor form.

 

[chic]

Hopefully can take some more video Friday.

When it comes to changing serve direction, whatever works is whatever works. However, some people may be able to pick up the cue in the rotation of the body. I personally look at how much people rotate their shoulders (if I can't pick up on anything else) to tell where they're gonna serve and it works pretty well. Do be wary if your method for changing locations on the serve produces effects in the rest of the motion which make it easier to read. I prefer the method of generating power the exact same way (shading my body weight to the middle of the service box, trying to rotate the same amount on each serve), then changing direction with subtle manipulation of the racquet face at contact. That way the only cue they have occurs at the very end of the motion - the less time the returner has to react, the better!

Personally I've always followed all the way through on all of them and just aimed with a slight timing change. The people I've told this to and asked to watch haven't been able to tell the difference.

This thread has mostly more become about me learning proper pronation instead of the b*stardized version I was doing where I break it into a flexion/deviation mid swing. Having been working on relearning this over the past week aiming is kinda big targets only rn, making down the T hard to figure.

 

[Chas Tennis]

This particular camera angle was aligned with a rough plane containing the path of the hand. The camera is also high. This looks like a slice serve. Look at the path of the hand, the path of the racket head and the trajectory of the ball. It is difficult to observe these angles. If you look at videos from various camera angles and try to compare a second serve at a camera angle, that is, say 15 degrees off, you may never notice any patterns or be able to compare the serves. ? Notice the hand is not below the ball impact. I believe that these these paths have to be correct. The best way to check is to compare an ATP model serve to an unknown serve both using the same camera angles.

 

[J011yroger]

This particular camera angle was aligned with a rough plane containing the path of the hand. The camera is also high. This looks like a slice serve. Look at the path of the hand, the path of the racket head and the trajectory of the ball. It is difficult to observe these angles. If you look at videos from various camera angles and try to compare a second serve at a camera angle, that is, say 15 degrees off, you may never notice any patterns or be able to compare the serves. ? Notice the hand is not below the ball impact. I believe that these these paths have to be correct. The best way to check is to compare an ATP model serve to an unknown serve both using the same camera angles.

That's not a slice serve.

J

 

[Chas Tennis]

That's not a slice serve.

J

I would interpret that as a slice serve.

At 2:08 a slice and flat serve are compared. To do single frame on Youtube use the period & comma keys.

My interpretation is a slice. I would always like to have a slice and flat serve to compare as in the Roddick comparison (that's the best comparison that I have seen).

Why do you think?
"That's not a slice serve."

 

[J011yroger]

Why do you think?
"That's not a slice serve."

The racquet face is too square to the ball in the frame before contact, so it is going to rotate through the ball inside out creating a flatter serve, if it were a slice wide the racquet face would not be as open to the ball before contact, if it were a slice down the T, the post contact frames would be more towards the side.

J

 

[Chas Tennis]

To single frame on Youtube use the period & comma keys. To select the YT video use Alt plus Left Mouse Click.
To single frame on Vimeo, hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS. You can enlarge the video and shrink it and the video stays on the same frame.

Go to impact for each video, 2:08 for the Roddick video showing both slice and flat serves. Watch how the racket moves laterally to the ball (to the side of the ball's trajectory). The ball is hard to see on the Roddick flat serve but you can see a bit of the ball. Notice the black arrow that indicates the lateral racket motion for the slice serve.

We can select videos but we have no measurements or control of the ATP servers.

My interpretation is that the composite picture of post #39 is a slice serve. I base it mostly on a subjective opinion of how much the racket moved in the lateral direction to the ball trajectory.

Probably if we aligned the camera parallel to the ball's trajectory at impact and looked at the frame before, during and after impact we would be able to identify the slice serve from the flat serve by the lateral movement of the racket head.

 

[J011yroger]

Is that bottom one the video the still compilation was taken from?

J

 

[Chas Tennis]

Is that bottom one the video the still compilation was taken from?

J

Yes.

 

[J011yroger]

Yes.

Apologies then, in the video it does look like a slice serve.

J

 

[chic]

Improvement maybe:

https://imgur.com/a/k4DF1iA

(Took every 3 frames in a 240 frame video.)

Not sure if I'm getting the wrist angled naturally still. But this seems like improvement from my perspective at least watching the follow through fbf vs what was happening before.

@Chas Tennis what did you do to make that nice composite image.

 

[J011yroger]

Improvement maybe:

https://imgur.com/a/k4DF1iA

(Took every 3 frames in a 240 frame video.)

Not sure if I'm getting the wrist angled naturally still. But this seems like improvement from my perspective at least watching the follow through fbf vs what was happening before.

@Chas Tennis what did you do to make that nice composite image.

Arm not in line with the shoulders, and racquet angle still not there.

J

 

[Chas Tennis]

..................................................................................................
@Chas Tennis what did you do to make that nice composite image.

Poster Toly used to make those composite pictures and also composite videos. His Youtubes are under the name of Anatoly Antipin and they are all excellent and special for showing tennis strokes. You don't have to remember what was in the earlier frames, it is just right there. Unfortunately, Toly stopped posting a few years ago. But his Youtubes are still there.

Anatoly Antipin

www.youtube.com

His technique involves Photoshop 'Layering'. The part of the stroke & image that moves, Toly could separate and paste in on the image or on a video frame. Unfortunately, two of the photohosting websites that he used for pictures are no longer supporting his images any longer, so a great deal of clear stroke displays and original graphics are no longer available on the forum.

I just happened to save a few of those images and can post them.

Stosur kick serve.

Stosur Tosses. Note that the racket shaft is at a lower angle to the horizontal for the kick serve and the arm appears more upright.

Frank Salazar Tosses made from Fuzzy Yellow Balls videos. (the overhead videos are still available). This picture proves that 'you do not toss the ball over your head for a kick serve.' (You release the toss and move your head forward......)

Frank Salazar serves made by Toly from Fuzzy Yellow Balls videos. Note that the ball is impacted over the head for the kick serve and the arm is more vertical. Note also that the chest is more to the side but it is not 'sidewise'.

It is too bad that there are so few high speed videos of tennis strokes taken from above - it is a special view point.

Toly's technique was perfect for showing tennis strokes.

Toly come back!!

 

[Raul_SJ]

Not sure if I'm getting the wrist angled naturally still. But this seems like improvement from my perspective at least watching the follow through fbf vs what was happening before.

What are you using for a second serve now?
Work on hitting a topspin serve. Must brush up to impart topspin. It will be practically impossible not to get the forearm to racquet angle right.