Div I player does not know how to pronate on serve?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Raul_SJ, Sep 14, 2018.

  1. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Hall of Fame

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    This video says she was player of the year at Div I school but was not fully pronating correctly.
    Is that possible? Div I is a high level.



    We're gonna prove to you today that you should pronate on all your serves. There's a myth about no pronation some people think it's just rotation of the arm. We have a player for Division one school Winthrop University. She was a very good player, player of the year several times but she struggled to serve a little bit.

    Today we're going to completely convert her serve and add about twenty miles an hour.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
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  2. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    She was pronating before but the coach helped her get a better whipping action at contact. Here's the thing though. She's an athletic, experienced player, and the coach made sure she was doing it right when she started serving for real. Give a 50 year old rec player those drills and have him start banging serves afterward, and he'll destroy his shoulder.
     
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  3. samarai

    samarai Semi-Pro

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    She had plenty of pronation on her initial serves. have u seen the ladies tour. Most of those serves are basically done just to get the point started.
     
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  4. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    Im surprised you’re surprised. 2 reasons. a) D1 isn’t all high level - no idea why but many small schools stay D1; it’s not all Stanford and UVA; b) women can get away with just having a serviceable serve to get the point started. I watch females juniors practice at one place I play; 90% of their hitting is groundies.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
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  5. BulldogLouisiana

    BulldogLouisiana Rookie

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    I'm feeling lazy, and don't want to google. I *think* there is a NCAA rule now that says if any of your scholarship programs are D1, then other scholarship programs must also be D1. I'm probably wrong :p.
     
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  6. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    I tried google; couldn’t find anything. But I’m still standing behind not all D1 are powerhouse programs with great facilities, top coaches, etc. that attract top players. Thus the big delta in skill level.
     
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  7. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Legend

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    no you're right...
    the difference between ranked and unranked d1 programs is huge...
    like 4.0 vs. 5.0 huge.
     
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  8. BulldogLouisiana

    BulldogLouisiana Rookie

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    I agree, and wasn't denying that. The disparity in football is huge, and it's by far where most of the athletic money is spent (and earned). Was just referencing the question of why so many small schools stay D1. You have a lot of small schools that are very competitive in basketball, and don't want to to drop into another division. AFAIK, this would affect their tennis program.
     
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  9. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Legend

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    In the "Before" video the Div I player does internal shoulder rotation (ISR) leading to impact. You can see it looking at the shadows at her elbow.

    The instruction adds additional ISR & pronation after impact.

    I believe that type follow through is called 'fully pronating' by some, when the racket or palm faces the side fence.

    I do not know the value of this after impact racket orientation or how it correlates with pace. I believe it occurs in a percentage of follow throughs or servers.

    Here is a serve from Karolina Pliskova, leading lady server in some of the most recent years. Note racket face after impact.


    The same applied to a serve of Sabine Lisicki, holder of the fastest serve record.

    While the 'fully pronated' finish might often be seen in high level serves it is not a necessary and sufficient condition/checkpoint to indicate that a serve is a high level serve. In other words, serves without racket face to the side are also high level serves.

    Statistics could easily by found by looking at a number of randomly selected high level serves. Check the stats by looking at videos before you form beliefs based on the instruction video.

    The 'fully pronated' follow through might be a good approach for insuring ISR. ??

    There have been posts on this issue.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
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  10. RetroSpin

    RetroSpin Hall of Fame

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    Great point Chas. Compare these serves.

    Groth and Kyrgious, not much post impact pronation.





    Rafter, Lopez, "full" pronation.




     
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  11. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Legend

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    Where the ball is impacted on the racket face will also have some unknown effect. Look at the Kyrgios impact to the left side of the racket center line.

    Interesting issue.

    I looked at the racket face after impact for a time and could not make any sense of it. Muscles can be used in various ways to slow down in the follow through.
     
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  12. FiReFTW

    FiReFTW Hall of Fame

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    My theory is as follows, im not saying im right, but from what ive seen from slowmo videos it seems to me that:

    1.Not fully pronated serves still are huge, alot of players who often do not fully pronate like groth in upper vid, murray, karlovic.. hit huge serves

    2.Not fully pronated serves always seem to have more body rotation, in other words body rotates more into the court

    3.Not fully pronated serves seem to have less spin to me

    4.Players who fully pronate always on all serves (Federer an example) are players who seem to stay mlre sidways when serving mo matter what type of serve, and they also seem to have more movement and spin on the ball, even non slice 1st serves seem to have much more topspin component

    From a logical perspective it would make sense, if you stay more sideways the pronation should be more pronounced in theory in order to get nice pace, since ur not serving directly in line with the ball flight but away and the pronation goes into the court.

    And if you rotate more you now have a more linear swing into the court.

    So probably you can serve huge with both it seems, but not fully pronated means probably more rotation body facing court more and more direct more flat less spin but still huge serves

    Fully pronated more sideways at contact more spin into the ball either slice or topspin or both and still huge serves.

    Thats just my assumption based on video ive seen and ball flights etc
     
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  13. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Hall of Fame

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    Video claims she added 20mph after just one hour lesson. Drills included throwing a football spiral which apparently requires the palm outwards position in the follow through.

    IIRC, the few top servers I've seen (Federer, Sampras) definitely have that pronounced follow through. As you mentioned some other servers do not. But I do not see a downside to copying it.

    Maybe taller players are able to get away with not fully pronating. Maybe those that don't fully pronate are using more wrist flexion in the follow through vs a more neutral wrist position in the full follow through. The latter imo feels more natural and safer.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
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  14. TennisDawg

    TennisDawg Professional

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    Her serve looks pretty good already. I don’t see the evidence that she adds 20 mph to her serve. If it’s not broke don’t fix it, especially if she’s already holding her own in D1. Some players can debunk all the norms.
     
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  15. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Legend

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    Can you illustrate this with a few examples?

    I have had a very difficult time estimating spin when I view high speed videos. Could you illustrate one or two such estimates?

    I have had a lot of difficulty is determining 'how sideways' a server is. First question being - Is the body sideways to the court lines or to the ball's trajectory? Cameras on the ground do not show the 'sideways' body angle well. Cameras above the server do. That is why I always post a few of the rare Fuzzy Yellow Balls overhead videos of Salazar's serves with the clear sideways angle of his chest and the line between his shoulders relative to the baseline. Otherwise, I can't estimate the angle very well and also the exact time of 'sideways' must be specified, I often use the time of impact.

    Do you have an example to show that "4.Players who fully pronate always on all serves (Federer an example) are players who seem to stay mlre sidways when serving mo matter what type of serve, and they also seem to have more movement and spin on the ball, even non slice 1st serves seem to have much more topspin component"?

    The implication of the instruction video was that the hand or racket face facing the side was a superior way to serve. That 'fully pronated' finish well after impact somehow added 20 MPH to the girl's serve.

    The first two lady servers - top lady servers - that I viewed did not support that view. This indicates that some more stats are necessary before believing that the 'fully pronated' finish is a big 20 MPH plus. Retrospin quickly found some more exceptions to any view that all strong male servers 'fully pronate'.

    I used to look for the racket face angle after impact and look for consistency but I could not make sense of it. I did not observe the issue carefully so maybe there is some sense to be made of it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2018
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  16. travlerajm

    travlerajm Legend

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    I know how to pronate but my serve sucks anyway.

    I used to have a big serve, but now things like lower back tightness, hamstring tightness, calf tightness, and nerves always derail my serve once the match gets going. I can still serve decently in practice sometimes though.
     
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