Djoker's Next Mission: Beat Rafa At Roland Garros.

weakera

G.O.A.T.
Keep the fight among Big 3 - we know how many Rosols out there who gave Nadal slam beatings - let’s not.
Sadly for you context does matter. That is why no one ever mentions 2015 RG as an achievement. Living with your head buried in the sand is not a good way to go through life.
 

CYGS

Legend
Sadly for you context does matter. That is why no one ever mentions 2015 RG as an achievement. Living with your head buried in the sand is not a good way to go through life.
Again no one? Maybe we do not exist to you - that’s very disrespectful.
 

weakera

G.O.A.T.
Okay you can’t count. I forgive you.
We saw a few months ago exactly what that 2015 victory is worth. Djokovic was in even better form than 2015 according to the posters who mention 2015, massive winning streak and so on... ouchie.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
Technically he did beat Nadal at RG.

But unless you're being disingenuous it's quite clear what "beating Nadal at RG" entails, and it's not about beating a version of Nadal whose biggest achievements that season was winning Stuttgart and Hamburg, for the same reasons Chung and Istomin beating Djokovic at the AO isn't the same as beating Djokovic in the 2012 finals.
 

ChrisRF

Hall of Fame
Everyone, you mean every Fedal fan who hates to admit the fact that Djokovic straightest Nadal at RG? I understand the motivation to deny but it’s a fact. Deal with it.
I’m on your side here. Yes, I’m a Federer fan and I also have a bit more sympathies for Rafa than for Nole. But come on, a win is a win. People cannot act as if Djokovic must have this as a goal because it never happened. For sure in 2015 is was the easiest to beat Nadal since 2005, but is also was Djokovic’s best year. Both those facts resulted in the straight-set win, so I dislike if people only mention one.

Everyone knows that Nadal wouldn’t be beaten at his absolute best at RG, but nobody will play his best every day. So I don’t see how that is necessary to make a win legit for the opponent. It’s too easy to say “Player X wasn’t as his best when he lost, so it doesn’t count”, simply because you could always say that. This actually often leads to the circular logic that the more lopsided a win was, the less “legit” it seemed.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
Everyone knows that Nadal wouldn’t be beaten at his absolute best at RG, but nobody will play his best every day. So I don’t see how that is necessary to make a win legit for the opponent. It’s too easy to say “Player X wasn’t as his best when he lost, so it doesn’t count”, simply because you could always say that. This actually often leads to the circular logic that the more lopsided a win was, the less “legit” it seemed.
That's not the point. The point is that Nadal won RG thirteen times, which is the closest you can get to someone playing their best every day, and yet the one time Djokovic managed to score a win was when he literally had the worst season in his career.

I and most honest Nadal fans would whole-heartedly agree that "he didn't play at his best" is a crappy argument out of desperation if Nadal had a typical clay season (ie swept most or all of it) then laid an egg in the final, because then "having an off day" is something you can reasonably expect of anyone and therefore cannot warrant asterisking a win (for lack of a better word for it). This is why people rate Soderling's win is so highly--injury, parents' divorce or whatnot.

2015 Nadal however didn't just have a bad day, though did he? He had a bad year (or rather bad two years because it ended up extending to the beginning of 2017). "Nobody will play his best every day" doesn't quite work as an argument.

To be clear, yes, the 2015 win does count as a win. But there is obviously a merit to the argument that the win clearly misses the spirit of "beating Nadal at RG".

If Djokovic didn't lose to nobodies in the tail end of 2016 through to the first half of 2018 and instead made it deep enough to play Fedal and lose at the AO, would these guys be saying "yeah Nadal beating 2017/2018 AO Djokovic is as valid and as prestigious as Djokovic beating Nadal at the 2012 AO final"?

My gut instincts say no. But then again I guess it's easy to say "yes" and concede to a hypothetical because it's not happened.
 

irishnadalfan1983

Hall of Fame
I wonder will Nole maybe focus more on Wimbledon and US Open ....Maybe that is a silly thing to say but I felt he was quite resigned at the end of the last RG final....
 

ChrisRF

Hall of Fame
That's not the point. The point is that Nadal won RG thirteen times, which is the closest you can get to someone playing their best every day, and yet the one time Djokovic managed to score a win was when he literally had the worst season in his career.

I and most honest Nadal fans would whole-heartedly agree that "he didn't play at his best" is a crappy argument out of desperation if Nadal had a typical clay season (ie swept most or all of it) then laid an egg in the final, because then "having an off day" is something you can reasonably expect of anyone and therefore cannot warrant asterisking a win (for lack of a better word for it). This is why people rate Soderling's win is so highly--injury, parents' divorce or whatnot.

2015 Nadal however didn't just have a bad day, though did he? He had a bad year (or rather bad two years because it ended up extending to the beginning of 2017). "Nobody will play his best every day" doesn't quite work as an argument.

To be clear, yes, the 2015 win does count as a win. But there is obviously a merit to the argument that the win clearly misses the spirit of "beating Nadal at RG".

If Djokovic didn't lose to nobodies in the tail end of 2016 through to the first half of 2018 and instead made it deep enough to play Fedal and lose at the AO, would these guys be saying "yeah Nadal beating 2017/2018 AO Djokovic is as valid and as prestigious as Djokovic beating Nadal at the 2012 AO final"?

My gut instincts say no. But then again I guess it's easy to say "yes" and concede to a hypothetical because it's not happened.
But one could also say: “Nadal is that good on clay every year that it’s almost impossible to beat him. Even when not in best form, it needed a 2015 Djokovic to beat him there.”

I think Djokovic’s 2015 form is underestimated. Don’t forget it was maybe the best and most dominant season ever played. It’s a coincidence that he faced the worst Nadal at RG in exactly that year. But he beat him very convincingly, and I think 2015 Djokovic would have beaten Nadal at RG in more years than just that one. I’m not saying in many more years, but let’s say some 3 or 4 other years.

And I’m also very sure that Nadal would have also won 2015 RG if not for Djokovic. Murray and Wawrinka wouldn’t beat him at RG. Even the Wawrinka of the 2015 final couldn’t overcome the matchup issues and the occasion of facing Nadal in an RG final.

However, I absolutely agree with one point: This 2015 match didn't feel like the Spirit of beating Nadal at RG. But that's also partly because it was just too lopsided (for whatever reason). I agree that in someone's imagination overcoming Nadal at RG rather looks like if for example Djokovic would have won the 5th set in 2013.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
I’m on your side here. Yes, I’m a Federer fan and I also have a bit more sympathies for Rafa than for Nole. But come on, a win is a win. People cannot act as if Djokovic must have this as a goal because it never happened. For sure in 2015 is was the easiest to beat Nadal since 2005, but is also was Djokovic’s best year. Both those facts resulted in the straight-set win, so I dislike if people only mention one.

Everyone knows that Nadal wouldn’t be beaten at his absolute best at RG, but nobody will play his best every day. So I don’t see how that is necessary to make a win legit for the opponent. It’s too easy to say “Player X wasn’t as his best when he lost, so it doesn’t count”, simply because you could always say that. This actually often leads to the circular logic that the more lopsided a win was, the less “legit” it seemed.
But then when some people throw in our faces that Nole beat Rafa at RG, while Fed never did, some context needs to be added to this.
 

Red Rick

Bionic Poster
Technically he did beat Nadal at RG.

But unless you're being disingenuous it's quite clear what "beating Nadal at RG" entails, and it's not about beating a version of Nadal whose biggest achievements that season was winning Stuttgart and Hamburg, for the same reasons Chung and Istomin beating Djokovic at the AO isn't the same as beating Djokovic in the 2012 finals.
Still better than nussing.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
But one could also say: “Nadal is that good on clay every year that it’s almost impossible to beat him. Even when not in best form, it needed a 2015 Djokovic to beat him there.”

I think Djokovic’s 2015 form is underestimated. Don’t forget it was maybe the best and most dominant season ever played. It’s a coincidence that he faced the worst Nadal at RG in exactly that year. But he beat him very convincingly, and I think 2015 Djokovic would have beaten Nadal at RG in more years than just that one. I’m not saying in many more years, but let’s say some 3 or 4 other years.

And I’m also very sure that Nadal would have also won 2015 RG if not for Djokovic. Murray and Wawrinka wouldn’t beat him at RG. Even the Wawrinka of the 2015 final couldn’t overcome the matchup issues and the occasion of facing Nadal in an RG final.

However, I absolutely agree with one point: This 2015 match didn't feel like the Spirit of beating Nadal at RG. But that's also partly because it was just too lopsided (for whatever reason). I agree that in someone's imagination overcoming Nadal at RG rather looks like if for example Djokovic would have won the 5th set in 2013.
A 2015 Wawrinka would have been more than enough to beat 2015 RG Nadal.
 
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