Djokodal since ‘09 Madrid

BeatlesFan

Talk Tennis Guru
Apart from his patented DjokoSmash, Djokovic trumps Nadal in virtually every stroke of the game.
Volleying? Neither Rafa or Djokovic utilize the shot much at all, but when they do, Nadal is clearly superior. Djokovic is clearly the worst volleyer and most reluctant volleyer among any ATG.
 

Hitman

Hall of Fame
And it's not like we never heard about H2H stats when Nadal was doing better in that department than he is now... :whistle:


Djokovic pounding Nadal into submission on a hard court nowadays is like the sun rising from the east every day, it is just another normal day on planet Earth, hardly needs to be spoken about, I mean what's the big deal? :D
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
Djokovic pounding Nadal into submission on a hard court nowadays is like the sun rising from the east every day, it is just another normal day on planet Earth, hardly needs to be spoken about, I mean what's the big deal? :D
Agreed lol, who expected a Nadal win? Djokovic has been beating him comfortably on HC since 2007 Miami. (the last game of that match is epic af though) 8-B
 
Sigh. "Peak" Nadal of 2008 would be getting blasted out on hard courts. Is this revisionism or something? He had to change his game and tactics. He is far greater on hard courts post 2009. Nadal and reality back this up. Sigh. Sigh. Sigh.
Nadal learned to be more consistent and efficient against the field but he never surpassed AO09/US10 level on HC again. What ultimately matters is what you can bring against the best, not the field. 2017-19 Nadal is a perfect example, as good as ever against the field, abysmal against the best competition.
People view this narrative as taking away from Nole, but actually it boosts him. Despite losing Madrid 09, by fighting Nadal so hard there he ensured that Nadal would never again reach those heights of movement/speed and rarely again be able to threaten him away from clay. Nadal had to injure himself to beat Nole, and then Nole himself improved his game to surpass Nadal a couple of years later.
The biggest thing that changed was Nadal's movement to the BH side, his BH went from being a strength in his 08-09 run to an exploitable weakness after Madrid 09.
 

NEW_BORN

Hall of Fame
Volleying? Neither Rafa or Djokovic utilize the shot much at all, but when they do, Nadal is clearly superior. Djokovic is clearly the worst volleyer and most reluctant volleyer among any ATG.
Again, from what i've seen i would put Djokovic as even, if not slightly better than Nadal as a volleyer at this point in time.
 

swordtennis

Legend
Nadal learned to be more consistent and efficient against the field but he never surpassed AO09/US10 level on HC again. What ultimately matters is what you can bring against the best, not the field. 2017-19 Nadal is a perfect example, as good as ever against the field, abysmal against the best competition.
People view this narrative as taking away from Nole, but actually it boosts him. Despite losing Madrid 09, by fighting Nadal so hard there he ensured that Nadal would never again reach those heights of movement/speed and rarely again be able to threaten him away from clay. Nadal had to injure himself to beat Nole, and then Nole himself improved his game to surpass Nadal a couple of years later.
The biggest thing that changed was Nadal's movement to the BH side, his BH went from being a strength in his 08-09 run to an exploitable weakness after Madrid 09.
Excellent stuff.
One thing too i refuse to be swayed that 2011 - 2012 was not peak hard court nadal. In fact indian wells miami uso and ao finals says he was at his damn best. Only one man stopped him. The hard court goat.
 
Excellent stuff.
One thing too i refuse to be swayed that 2011 - 2012 was not peak hard court nadal. In fact indian wells miami uso and ao finals says he was at his damn best. Only one man stopped him. The hard court goat.
Nadal improved tactically on HC over the years, and modified some things like court position, but like I said before, he was not at peak speed/movement in 2011-12 either. Which is fine, it is what people always said, he couldn't keep up that 05-09 style forever. But it was that speed to burn that allowed him to beat Federer at Djokovic so often in that timeframe, as he's slowed down, their technical superiority has become more and more of a problem for him.
 
Excellent stuff.
One thing too i refuse to be swayed that 2011 - 2012 was not peak hard court nadal. In fact indian wells miami uso and ao finals says he was at his damn best. Only one man stopped him. The hard court goat.
How does Nadal's performance in the USO final say he was at his best lul... obviously played better in 2010 and 2013, as well as Djokovic obviously playing worse in those finals so yes they never met peak-to-peak at the USO and it's a speculative debate. IW 2011 wasn't peak Nadal either, not with that serve percentage... less than 50% for the match, some goat level. Miami '11 and AO '12 were peak though, Djokovic owns both so of course his peak is better.
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic pounding Nadal into submission on a hard court nowadays is like the sun rising from the east every day, it is just another normal day on planet Earth, hardly needs to be spoken about, I mean what's the big deal? :D
Pretty much like Wawrinka beating Novak in a major.
 

titoelcolombiano

Hall of Fame
Another stat trying to detract from Rafa's greatness that can't just stand alone. There always has to be a ''since <<insert favourable date here>>'' or ''off-clay'' (for some reason excluding the second most prolific surface on tour). Or some other caveat.
 

Hitman

Hall of Fame
Another stat trying to detract from Rafa's greatness that can't just stand alone. There always has to be a ''since <<insert favourable date here>>'' or ''off-clay'' (for some reason excluding the second most prolific surface on tour). Or some other caveat.
While you have a point, you do realize that this sort of stuff has been done also to detract from Federer? I am sure you have heard the since 2008, or the baby claim a couple of times among other things. Detractors often pick up on these things and start producing numbers and stats to show someone in a bad light, but understand it happens to them all, not just Nadal.

Now while there are times where the intent is not noble, there are times where you are able to see new trends and patterns emerging, which is something people look for, especially bookies when placing bets and odds, it also shows how dynamics of rivalries change.
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
Absolutely, spot on, or like Nadal losing to Federer anywhere when he doesn't have dirt under his feet. After a little while, it's just the norm. (y)
Wrong.

There's dirt on the courts at Wimbledon...

RG is actually crushed brick.

Keep reaching, but it's not the norm when it only really happened in 2017. Oh and Nadal still leads the outdoor HC h2h with Rogi too btw despite those 4 losses in 2017...

Still Nadal will retire with the better h2h record against Fed.
 

Hitman

Hall of Fame
Wrong.

There's dirt on the courts at Wimbledon...

RG is actually crushed brick.
LOL - OK...

Keep reaching, but it's not the norm when it only really happened in 2017. Oh and Nadal still leads the outdoor HC h2h with Rogi too btw despite those 4 losses in 2017...

Still Nadal will retire with the better h2h record against Fed.
The only one reaching here is you. This topic is about Djokovic v Nadal, it hit a nerve with you, so you bring in another player Wawrinka into it, so I did too to see your reaction. And you responded how I thought you would.
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
The only one reaching here is you. This topic is about Djokovic v Nadal, it hit a nerve with you, so you bring in another player Wawrinka into it, so I did too to see your reaction. And you responded how I thought you would.
Yeah sure, I'm reaching when you're isolating HC encounters...
 

Hitman

Hall of Fame
Yeah sure, I'm reaching when you're isolating HC encounters...
On a thread that is about Djokovic v Nadal H2H....Would you have complained if I isolated the clay court encounters....I highly doubt it...
 
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Hitman

Hall of Fame
The older I get the more I realize life is just one gigantic live-action version of Final Destination. We all need to remember more often how short time is and to live better :)
Reminds me of a classic Rocky quote -

"The older I get, the more things I leave behind. That's life."
 

Sport

Legend
It does count. We all know Nadal is an infinitely better clay player than Djokovic and Federer, and beat them like a drum there going 12-1. However, there are 4 Slams not 1. If anyone can beat two guys like a drum at all 4 Slams when both have 15+ Slams then he is the supreme tennis player, most likely the undisputed GOAT and no one should argue otherwise. But when he dominated one of them mainly at one Slam but his fans keep repeating 9-6, it can become annoying and tiresome after a while especially when trying to prop up an advantage gained from being so dominant at 1/4 Slams.
Nadal is better than Djokovic not only on clay, but also at the US Open. Nadal has more US Open titles than Djokovic, Nadal has 4, Djokovic 3. And yes, Nadal leads Djokovic 9-6 in the H2H in Slams, but that it not an advantage gained exclusively from 1/4 Slams. Nadal also leads Djokovic 2-1 at the US Open.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
Reminds me of a classic Rocky quote -

"The older I get, the more things I leave behind. That's life."
I wanna die in my sleep lol, literally every other way is gross :/
Will prob watch Rocky II this week


Easily the best training montage to me :D #Iconic
More heart in these 6 minutes than some entire cities lol
 

Hitman

Hall of Fame
I wanna die in my sleep lol, literally every other way is gross :/
Will prob watch Rocky II this week


Easily the best training montage to me :D #Iconic
I would be OK with sitting on the beach watching my last sunset as I die. Kind of how I grew up.
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
Nadal is better than Djokovic not only on clay, but also at the US Open. Nadal has more US Open titles than Djokovic, Nadal has 4, Djokovic 3. And yes, Nadal leads Djokovic 9-6 in the H2H in Slams, but that it not an advantage gained exclusively from 1/4 Slams. Nadal also leads Djokovic 2-1 at the US Open.
Lol, the US Open is only one tournament. You're not seriously suggesting that Nadal is a better hard court player than Djokovic, are you? :unsure:
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
Which like I said is only one tournament. Other than the US Open and Canada, Djokovic has a superior record at every other big hard court event at Masters level and above.
There are 2 HC slams, Nadal has more titles than Djokovic at one of those :D That's all that matters :p you can throw rocks all day and reach but until Djokovic wins 3 more slams Nadal is considered greater.

 

RF-18

G.O.A.T.
There are 2 HC slams, Nadal has more titles than Djokovic at one of those :D That's all that matters :p you can throw rocks all day and reach but until Djokovic wins 3 more slams Nadal is considered greater.
Djokovic better on HC, Indoor hard, grass. Just saying. But indeed Nadal has 3 slams more.
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
There are 2 HC slams, Nadal has more titles than Djokovic at one of those :D That's all that matters :p you can throw rocks all day and reach but until Djokovic wins 3 more slams Nadal is considered greater.
Well some, including me, would argue slams aren't the be all and end all. Djokovic has won 40 hard court tournaments at Masters level and above compared to 15 for Nadal. That seems to paint a pretty accurate picture of who the better HC player is.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
Well some, including me, would argue slams aren't the be all and end all. Djokovic has won 40 hard court tournaments at Masters level and above compared to 15 for Nadal. That seems to paint a pretty accurate picture of who the better HC player is.


You could discuss it all you like, the tennis media will print the story one way and it'll be the correct one :D Djokovic really messed up going down to Wawa at the USO and Nadal responded to losing the AO final in the most important way he could, winning the next HC slam and getting another YE#1. He flipped the script from Sep-Dec in a way that sadly Djokovic has to respond to yet again.
 

Hitman

Hall of Fame
Nadal after USO 2010 was the better clay courter 5-0 at RG, the better grass courter 2-0 and the better hard courter 2-1

So the fact Djokovic has overtaken him on two of those surfaces is OK with me. And yes, Nadal is the greater player right now, he has more slams, and that is what it is.
 
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JoshuaPim

Rookie
"You can throw rocks all day and reach but until Djokovic wins 3 more slams Nadal is considered greater. " 8-B (and Rafa isnt done) so keep throwing out trivial stats it doesn't change the truth :D
If some 7 foot servebot had won 21 Wimbledons, you would be mocking any claims for that player to GOAThood. But whatever keeps you happy.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
Nadal is better than Djokovic not only on clay, but also at the US Open. Nadal has more US Open titles than Djokovic, Nadal has 4, Djokovic 3. And yes, Nadal leads Djokovic 9-6 in the H2H in Slams, but that it not an advantage gained exclusively from 1/4 Slams. Nadal also leads Djokovic 2-1 at the US Open.
And here is the parrot with 2-1 at the USO right on queue. Lol. Is Nadal really better at the USO and Canada? He has more titles but is he better? He's 12-10 against the top 10 at those two tournaments while Djokovic is 21-12. Does any of Nadal's runs compare to Djokovic's 2007 Canada run or his 2011 USO run? Nadal is 2-1 at the USO by chance because if he can't win a set against Djokovic on hardcourt since 2013, no way would he have that head to head edge if he played Djokovic there again anytime in the last 6 and a half years.
 

blablavla

Hall of Fame
If some 7 foot servebot had won 21 Wimbledons, you would be mocking any claims for that player to GOAThood. But whatever keeps you happy.
what prevents the 7 foot servebot win 21 Wimbledon titles?
oh wait, that servebot so tall that doesn't even sees the tennis racket.
 
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